Q&A Ask Me Anything about Slots (AMA) 2020 with Trancemonkey

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
I can cover this one.

So in general there are 3 parties involved.

Casino - The ones fronting the whole thing that have the end users who sign up, put in money etc
Platform Provider - The ones who provide the accounting and reporting integration to the Casino, and the back end logic for the games. So when you place a bet with the Casino, the Casino sends a message to the Platform saying 'Player X just placed this bet on Game Y, please generate a result and tell me how much I need to pay them back'.
Game Provider - The ones who produce the games, the graphics, the front end, the mathamatical model etc. Sometimes they also produce the back end themselves and integrate it to the Platform, sometimes they will even build it on the Platform directly (although I believe that is rarer now days).

In some instances the Game Provider and the Platform Provider are the same company.

In terms of the contractual relationships, they go like this

View attachment 155468
Where each line is a many to many relationship.

A Casino will have contracts with 1 or many Game Providers and 1 or many Platform Providers.
A Platform Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Game Providers.
A Game Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Platform Providers.

Most deals work on a profit share per month, so whatever profit the game makes in a month is shared between the three parties. If the game makes no profit, noone gets any money. Sometimes losses are rolled over to the next month and offset against profits. It depends on the contract.

In general, the numbers are around the following:

Casino - Takes about 70-80%
Platform Provider - Takes about 10-15%
Game Provider - Takes about 5-10%

The better content the Game Provider has, the better the deal they can strike. The more high quality content a Platform has, the better deal they can strike.

Then you have things like exclusives, where the Casino will offer a higher percentage, or a one time fee, for a limited exclusivity period with a game.

This is the most common setup :)
Need to change the thread title to ASK US ANYTHING ;)
 

johnnybagel

Full Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2019
Location
Manchester
I can cover this one.

So in general there are 3 parties involved.

Casino - The ones fronting the whole thing that have the end users who sign up, put in money etc
Platform Provider - The ones who provide the accounting and reporting integration to the Casino, and the back end logic for the games. So when you place a bet with the Casino, the Casino sends a message to the Platform saying 'Player X just placed this bet on Game Y, please generate a result and tell me how much I need to pay them back'.
Game Provider - The ones who produce the games, the graphics, the front end, the mathamatical model etc. Sometimes they also produce the back end themselves and integrate it to the Platform, sometimes they will even build it on the Platform directly (although I believe that is rarer now days).

In some instances the Game Provider and the Platform Provider are the same company.

In terms of the contractual relationships, they go like this

View attachment 155468
Where each line is a many to many relationship.

A Casino will have contracts with 1 or many Game Providers and 1 or many Platform Providers.
A Platform Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Game Providers.
A Game Provider will have contracts with 1 or many Casino's and 1 or many Platform Providers.

Most deals work on a profit share per month, so whatever profit the game makes in a month is shared between the three parties. If the game makes no profit, noone gets any money. Sometimes losses are rolled over to the next month and offset against profits. It depends on the contract.

In general, the numbers are around the following:

Casino - Takes about 70-80%
Platform Provider - Takes about 10-15%
Game Provider - Takes about 5-10%

The better content the Game Provider has, the better the deal they can strike. The more high quality content a Platform has, the better deal they can strike.

Then you have things like exclusives, where the Casino will offer a higher percentage, or a one time fee, for a limited exclusivity period with a game.

This is the most common setup :)
Thanks for explaining that so well... and with pictures too!

Do you have any stats on what kind of money a regular under the radar game will earn each month compared to say something ever popular and marketed like Starburst? I guess new games might do well initially then tail off and find a regular level apart from the few that become famous.
 

The Reel Story

Experienced Member
Joined
May 5, 2019
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks for explaining that so well... and with pictures too!

Do you have any stats on what kind of money a regular under the radar game will earn each month compared to say something ever popular and marketed like Starburst? I guess new games might do well initially then tail off and find a regular level apart from the few that become famous.
That's pretty hard to answer because the main factor is the size of the Casino and how many players (and specifically, high rollers) they have.

But (and this is 10 odd years ago) on the average Casino's a new game would do 30k odd profit in its first month, then tail off pretty rapidly from there. By month 3, it'd be doing 1 or 2k profit. Games that have drifted into obscurity would be lucky to get a few hundred profit.

Majority of games did the most of their profit in the first 2 to 3 weeks, that's why game providers churn out content so fast, cause they need to keep the new content coming to keep the profits up. Games that gain popularity or a cult following (like DOA2 or DHV) are the dream, as they will do consistent numbers all the time.

On the bigger Casino's we supplied (888.com within their Casino download client, which was their big thing back then) a game would do 100k odd in the first month.

But as I say, there are many factors (and it was quite a long time ago) so it's really hard for me to give you decent estimates :)
 

neon claws

Experienced Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Location
Australia
That's pretty hard to answer because the main factor is the size of the Casino and how many players (and specifically, high rollers) they have.

But (and this is 10 odd years ago) on the average Casino's a new game would do 30k odd profit in its first month, then tail off pretty rapidly from there. By month 3, it'd be doing 1 or 2k profit. Games that have drifted into obscurity would be lucky to get a few hundred profit.

Majority of games did the most of their profit in the first 2 to 3 weeks, that's why game providers churn out content so fast, cause they need to keep the new content coming to keep the profits up. Games that gain popularity or a cult following (like DOA2 or DHV) are the dream, as they will do consistent numbers all the time.

On the bigger Casino's we supplied (888.com within their Casino download client, which was their big thing back then) a game would do 100k odd in the first month.

But as I say, there are many factors (and it was quite a long time ago) so it's really hard for me to give you decent estimates :)
those numbers seem really low... you're talking about the total profit brought in per month from a game at all casinos? or are those numbers for a single casino?
 

The Reel Story

Experienced Member
Joined
May 5, 2019
Location
United Kingdom
those numbers seem really low... you're talking about the total profit brought in per month from a game at all casinos? or are those numbers for a single casino?
Single casino. A reasonably sized one (for the time). It really would vary from anywhere from 5k to 50k though, depending on the game, the provider, the theme (branded content always did better), whether it was promoted, if it had jackpots or the casino attached a bonus or free spins.

As I say, this is 10 odd years ago. When I first joined the industry, online slots weren't even a thing, by the time I left, complex bonus rounds were only just becoming a regular feature of slots (most were still basic free spins, or picking bonuses). Also there were many markets that weren't fully opened up yet. So there has been a lot of growth and change since then.
 
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snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Don’t forget they are only supposed to keep 4 or 5% so it just shows how much dough is being whacked through each slot.
 

The Reel Story

Experienced Member
Joined
May 5, 2019
Location
United Kingdom
Don’t forget they are only supposed to keep 4 or 5% so it just shows how much dough is being whacked through each slot.
You're not wrong. The total amount of money that went through all of my companies systems every year was equivalent to the GDP of a small country.

A small percentage of a lot is still a lot haha.

That said, it wasn't uncommon to have a slot wind up at 70% rtp some months. That's because it only takes a few unlucky high rollers to massively offset the wins of the lucky low rollers.

Likewise slots often made a loss for the opposite reason.
 

Slotplayer83

Full Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Location
World
Can i check in a alternative way the RTP for a provided game other then the help file?

Ive F12'd my way through it (console) but i coud'nt find anything in particular. You have a game version and a server sided version, which proberly holds the magic does'nt it?

It's about Nextgen / Star Clusters.
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Can i check in a alternative way the RTP for a provided game other then the help file?

Ive F12'd my way through it (console) but i coud'nt find anything in particular. You have a game version and a server sided version, which proberly holds the magic does'nt it?

It's about Nextgen / Star Clusters.
I doubt that - unless the RTP setting for the game is sent to the client as part of the game load
 

Naith85

Newbie member
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Location
Sweden
I'm a game (not slots) programmer and I'm very interested in how various game mechanics in slot games are created.
One thing I'm particularly curious about is Play & Go's grid-based games. I have always liked Moon Princess and Rise of Olympus of that provider.

Look, we all know that such grid games are 100% scripted, from the moment the spin button is pressed, the cluster(s) forming and being destroyed, the tumbling(s), the random wilds placement etc - it's all pre-defined in some script file of sort that is just "played out" on the screen in front of the player.

The interesting part for me is how these game rounds actually were produced during the game's development?
I know that no one here can't for sure tell me how Play & Go did it but maybe you can tell me how it could potentially be done?
There's a lot to think about, such as the RTP should be correct (after like 1 million created game rounds or something), no endless tumbling etc.

How would you create such game rounds that is not based on reel strips?
 

burgstrom

New Game: Joker Maxima 22nd July :)
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Location
Malta
I'm a game (not slots) programmer and I'm very interested in how various game mechanics in slot games are created.
One thing I'm particularly curious about is Play & Go's grid-based games. I have always liked Moon Princess and Rise of Olympus of that provider.

Look, we all know that such grid games are 100% scripted, from the moment the spin button is pressed, the cluster(s) forming and being destroyed, the tumbling(s), the random wilds placement etc - it's all pre-defined in some script file of sort that is just "played out" on the screen in front of the player.

The interesting part for me is how these game rounds actually were produced during the game's development?
I know that no one here can't for sure tell me how Play & Go did it but maybe you can tell me how it could potentially be done?
There's a lot to think about, such as the RTP should be correct (after like 1 million created game rounds or something), no endless tumbling etc.

How would you create such game rounds that is not based on reel strips?
Hey @Naith85,
You usually start with the rules you want to have in the game. E.g. When X happens then Y happens. You apply a paytable and build out a simulator for it (in the case of a grid slot you usually need to do this). Run the sim and see where the game ends up on a mathematical level as well as a player experience level. When you’ve been doing this for a while - you just kinda know when a particular rule will be expensive (ie. use a lot of RTP) so you try not to build something with lots of those rules as your RTP will not be viable. From there is a process of pulling out stuff that isn’t working. Putting new stuff in and then when you have a good feeling you tweak here and there - all the while simming and checking the game looks good.
There are of course other things - making sure the game is compliant with the various regulations for example.

hope that helps a little!

burg
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
I'm a game (not slots) programmer and I'm very interested in how various game mechanics in slot games are created.
One thing I'm particularly curious about is Play & Go's grid-based games. I have always liked Moon Princess and Rise of Olympus of that provider.

Look, we all know that such grid games are 100% scripted, from the moment the spin button is pressed, the cluster(s) forming and being destroyed, the tumbling(s), the random wilds placement etc - it's all pre-defined in some script file of sort that is just "played out" on the screen in front of the player.

The interesting part for me is how these game rounds actually were produced during the game's development?
I know that no one here can't for sure tell me how Play & Go did it but maybe you can tell me how it could potentially be done?
There's a lot to think about, such as the RTP should be correct (after like 1 million created game rounds or something), no endless tumbling etc.

How would you create such game rounds that is not based on reel strips?
As @burgstrom quite rightly says, it is mostly through experience and also, even when you've been doing it a while, a lot of trial and error:

i.e wouldn't it be good if X happened after Y occurred, and then maybe Z could happen...

..and then you implement it and realise that Z was a stupid idea, but if you changed Z to Z1 it might actually work

The more we can prototype, the faster we can throw away bad ideas and nurture good ones...

Rinse and repeat...
 

Masquerade67

Newbie member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
South
Is the stated RTP on the game client *always* the actual RTP of the maths model that the server is using for each spin or is it the minimum ? From experience over the last five years, I always seem to do well on initial sign ups and when using bonus funds. I can't find detailed information on what the stated RTP must mean but I'm sure we can be played along by a provider/casino and then doing the shut-out when we raise stakes...... happens to me all the time :)
 

neon claws

Experienced Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Location
Australia
Is the stated RTP on the game client *always* the actual RTP of the maths model that the server is using for each spin or is it the minimum ? From experience over the last five years, I always seem to do well on initial sign ups and when using bonus funds. I can't find detailed information on what the stated RTP must mean but I'm sure we can be played along by a provider/casino and then doing the shut-out when we raise stakes...... happens to me all the time :)
Asked and answered hundreds of times: yes RTP is as advertised unless playing a pirated game or a shonky casino. No it doesn't change.
Your luck changes over time because if it stayed the same all the time it wouldn't be random.
You crash out quicker at higher stake because you are raising your variance.
 

Masquerade67

Newbie member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
South
Asked and answered hundreds of times: yes RTP is as advertised unless playing a pirated game or a shonky casino. No it doesn't change.
Your luck changes over time because if it stayed the same all the time it wouldn't be random.
You crash out quicker at higher stake because you are raising your variance.

Or there are changes in the way the game plays at different stakes - all within the same overall RTP ?

Thanks for the re-iteration. I'm a suspicious sod at the best of times and only being able to see half of an equation makes for subjective analysis. :)
 

neon claws

Experienced Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Location
Australia
Or there are changes in the way the game plays at different stakes - all within the same overall RTP ?

Thanks for the re-iteration. I'm a suspicious sod at the best of times and only being able to see half of an equation makes for subjective analysis. :)
It's just confirmation bias.
I think there may be a handful of slots that adjust variance based on stake (but not RTP) - but there's not many of them and that's fair enough a far as I'm concerned.
 

Troler

Newbie member
Joined
Aug 4, 2020
Location
Brasil
Speaking of regular casinos, is there any mechanism either in the slot or in the casino itself to make RTP control of players? Would this be allowed under current regulations?
 
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