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A CHALLENGE to Cipher and Bethug (merged with Seanjohn's "apology" thread)

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by seanjohn, Nov 25, 2004.

    Nov 25, 2004
  1. seanjohn

    seanjohn Banned User - Violation of posting rules

    A CHALLENGE to Cipher and Bethug

    I was going to post this under one of their threads but I reckon starting a new thread of my own could get more attention from the audience and of course Cipher and Bethug themselves. I have nothing ad hominem against these two individuals, just that I believe this inquiry would enlighten those ignorants including myself.

    My challenge is composed of two parts, one in reasoning and one experimental.

    First, please answer the following questions.Their subject is but simple and conceivable by anybody with a reasonable firmness:

    1, Why would you need a boss/client when you have an edge in online gambling?. In Bethug's case, he has a day job and he also runs an online portal and from time to time you see him begging people to join through his site (confer posts over WOL). I am not familiar with what Cipher does for living but he sure has a job when Cipher mentioned he got clients all over the world. Shouldn't you be making more money than Bill Gates gambling online? And you decide to have a real day job? For the benefit of public? :lolup:

    2, Why aren't you banned by online casinos? You win 3-5 sessions with bonuses at any online casino you are banned. You win 10 sessions with no bonuses, em...they will probably let you stay, but winning 10 sessions itself is a tough feat anyway. How about winning 20 or 30? Or in Cipher's case with Casino Fortune...48 out of 50?! :eek2: Anybody who runs a casino with half a brain will ban a customer winning that much, online or onland.

    3, Loopholes don't exist, period. If they do, casinos don't exist. If a player finds a loophole and wins lots of cash, he will eventually be spotted and banned and the loophole fixed. If it was programmer and exploits a loophole he plotted when he was hired to write the software, both himself and his family and friends would be making millions, and the casino is dead. Could you oppose my logic?

    4, Why wouldn't you do it secretly but instead going about telling everyone? And up to this point no casino has spotted you, you being so arrogant in the public? Answer to this question is because you are lying and you are losers to them. So they don't mind long-term losers bragging about short-term wins.

    5, Why up to this point none of you have really put your strategy at the table? Why not post a few rules here for public scrutiny? Those who are interested could try it and see if it really works. THAT would shut me up if veterans like Caruso and Clayman turns up saying "Hey it works!!".

    Secondly, if you were that good, why don't you show us how you can make money anyday. Why dont' we all go to Intercasino and watch you play 300 hands of any games you choose and see how you beat the casino for 3 days in a row? Would be better if you guys signed up through Casinomeister's affiliate link. :lolup:

    Of course, taking up the experimental challenge might not be practicable due to time zone differences and the like and I give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not obliged to, but ignoring or not answering in FULL the above questions in the first part could only entail that you guys are nothing but liars and chickens.

    To conquer, use reasoning.
    Please conquer me.
  2. Nov 25, 2004
  3. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    Let me tell you something!!! I don't know who you are or what rock you've crawled out from under or if in fact you've even got a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. But when you run the word CHALLENGE up the old flag pole to me that indicates that you are willing to invest something in this other than running your mouth.

    Now if that's the case, then by all means put up or shut up. There's no need at all to come up with one of these contrived schemes. Everything that I've done over the past six plus years is very well documented by the casinos themselves.
  4. Nov 25, 2004
  5. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Devil's Advocate
    If that is not an idiot post, I don't know what is... sheesh.

    Neither Bethug nor Cipher are obliged to respond to that, much less be called liars and chickens. On the other hand, your post, ad hominem, shows that you are truly an ignorant with no regard for anyone but yourself.
  6. Nov 25, 2004
  7. universexf6

    universexf6 Dormant account

    A Country Called Full Of Geld
    What is this shit by seanjohn??

    I think you better read newspapers than writing such a long
    composed literature. I fell asleep when I read half.
  8. Nov 25, 2004
  9. sw2003

    sw2003 Dormant account

    somewhere :)
    Hey may be that guy would like to put down $10K for each person that he is challenging! If any of them proved to be right, his $10K will be given to that person. How about that? If he doesn't take it up, he is a chicken!

    This post is bordering on the rude and offensive side! I agree because of its nature, one shouldn't even really need to reply to it! But anyway ............
  10. Nov 25, 2004
  11. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Seanjohn was banned for 30 days with his comment in this thread

    Where I replied with this:
    Well it looks like this suspension did no good.

    That's pretty strong language for someone on probabtion (yes probabtion).
    Banned again. This time for 90 days. Next time it's for good.
  12. Nov 25, 2004
  13. bethug

    bethug Banned User - Winner of the "<a href="http://www.c

    :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
    Can even have a holiday in peace.
    Happy thankgiven to all.

    I love all the real players out there
  14. Nov 25, 2004
  15. Petunia

    Petunia Dormant account

    **Was it not written "He with the bigger mouth has the smaller IQ?**

    What can one say?
  16. Nov 25, 2004
  17. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Casino apologist
    This is a rather odd reaction to a not unreasonable thread:confused:. The only aggressive remark was "liars and chickens", and I've seen a lot worse from many other posters (not just me). The poster is clearly intelligent, although he doesn't express himself as well as he could. Informed players have been trying - and failing - to call progressionists to substantiate their nonsensical claims since the first blackjack hand was played. Michael Shakelford's 20K challenge is more than enough to put these claims to bed once and for all. He is offering a ten to one bet against any "system" beating the house. He has had one taker - that failed, after 150,000 hands. Of the two possible contenders here, one has said Shakelford probably cheats:) and the other one has apparently STILL failed to elicit a reply.

    I agree with the above remark to put up or shut up, and I'm very, very empathetic with the poster's point of view. The only people who benefit from the claim that betting systems can beat negative value games are casinos, because, like it or not, there are readers out there who will believe what they read and try it for themselves - I nearly did, once. Those people will lose money in the endeavour. That bothers me. The fact that they're adults who are old enough to think for themselves does mitigate against that, but I'm not the only person to find extremely irritating that these misleading and false claims constantly get aired.

    Betting systems cannot overcome the house advantage. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are either foolish or malicious. If you don't understand why and want to know, ask me and I'll explain in detail.
  18. Nov 25, 2004
  19. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Devil's Advocate
    Let me ask you something, Caruso.

    Right or wrong, fair or not, how would you respond to a challenge like that which essentially insults the target?

    If I insult you even if I am totally right, are you supposed to just say "Ok, you're right?"

    Anyone can beat the house over a short term if they know what they are doing. No one can beat the house over a long term - you cannot overcome a house edge given infinite time.

    Having not studied either Bethug's or Cipher's methods or claims in any detail, I won't comment further on them. But I most definitely object to the manner in which they were challenged.
  20. Nov 25, 2004
  21. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    I agree it was a highly insulting post.

    Anyway, for what it's worth I thought I'd respond (despite almost never having played a system) - I think there is a possibility a system will work on the entirely plausible basis that on-line casinos are rigged. This seems to be behind Cipher's approach, if not Bethug's.

    1, Why would you need a boss/client when you have an edge in online gambling?. To have a steady income & insurance against the highly likely scenario that casinos will change at some point to nullify the strategy. Also, even if you have a successful system there's always going to be a limit to the amount you can make in any space of time (depending on the risks you're willing to take and how scaleable the system is). Not to mention you might want to get out and meet people :D

    2, Why aren't you banned by online casinos?
    Maybe they are from some, but casinos are highly unlikely to ban players who play without bonuses and make decent bets. Almost all systems are a huge long-term money spinner for the casinos, so they're not going to ban someone using one lightly.

    3, Loopholes don't exist, period.
    Not true - casino bonuses are one such loophole. The casinos allow it because overall they generate more revenue. In the same way they may have software which one or two people can work out how to crack but which more than makes up from that by the amount it takes (steals, if you like!) from others.

    4, Why wouldn't you do it secretly but instead going about telling everyone?
    Not really sure of the answer to this - Cipher presumably gets some tempting offers from investors. At the same time he provides some interesting data for the rest of us.

    5, Why up to this point none of you have really put your strategy at the table?
    Well, this loops back to question 4. It really would be madness to post full details of a successful system.
  22. Nov 25, 2004
  23. bethug

    bethug Banned User - Winner of the "<a href="http://www.c

    I been having a long running challenge for over Three years, to any flat bettor. i have shown over two weeks, how my system bets the casino.
    you can take a look its free. There no way in one session i would play 150000 hands, also if i sit there and play all my winnings back i would be a fool.

    After the holidays, someone please put your money up I will not waste my time for free. If you dont think my system work. Put your money up. human test, i am from the hood, i dont understand letting some computer symlater run a bunch of hands, which know way in hell tells me , the symlater can play like i do.

    Caurso why dont you put your money up.
  24. Nov 25, 2004
  25. universexf6

    universexf6 Dormant account

    A Country Called Full Of Geld

    Hello, Bethug. This is universexf6. It is my pleasure to talk to you here for the first time. Since I am interested in any betting systm available, please teach me where I can get in touch with your system on the internet. I am most delighted to see your site/programme/( or whatever it is ). Also excuse me in advance my English is not as good as Americans since I am a Japanse.

  26. Nov 25, 2004
  27. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    I really don't want to get into this pointless discussion... but it's absurd to 'challenge' a flat bettor. No-one's saying flat betting is 'better' than progressive betting. If the casino's fair you'll lose the same percentage long term either way (probably more actual money with progressive betting because your stakes become higher). Any half-sensible progressive system is odds on to win in the short term, which proves absolutely nothing. Unfortunately it means scam artists retain a degree of plausibility & casinos earn lots of money from the gullible.
  28. Nov 25, 2004
  29. bethug

    bethug Banned User - Winner of the "<a href="http://www.c

    Vesuvio, please explain , my runs for over a week at con and micro and casino365, u can see the screen shots. Using my sytstem. Please explain it.
    Do you want me to do it again, all i ask is if it dont work, call me on it, put your money out there. All i am saying.

    88 dollars to 13000
    100 to 3000
    on and on and on
    10 bucks to 1400

    explain it ??? please get your computer out,something
  30. Nov 25, 2004
  31. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Bethug, I haven't seen any new screenshots you may have posted recently, but the old ones always just showed a few hands where you haphazardly chased your losses and were successful. On another day you'd have lost the big bets and gone bust.

    If you can guarantee always to turn 88 into 13000 and prove it, say 10 times in a row, I'll bow down to you :notworthy Otherwise I'm inclined to think you've just had a lucky run as we all do at online casions. I once turned $2.5 into $2102.5 in half a second, but I'm not claiming it as a system. Negative progressions are tempting as you win most of the time - the problem is the other times...

    Besides which - it's odd that you always claim your system is about making a small profit and getting out quick (say a 10% profit), but then you only want to post the times when you ignored that system and kept on gambling.
  32. Nov 25, 2004
  33. bethug

    bethug Banned User - Winner of the "<a href="http://www.c

    I didnt say i could trun 88 dollarrs into 13000 everytime,
    But what i can do is win 200 dollars a day, i think if i should my system playing at 4 differnent casino over a week, winning everytime is more than enough proof.

    I was showing to you haters you can bet the casino over and over,I also say call me out. Everytime someone call me out i perform.

    If you dont think my system work, put your money up, i am done with all you players haters for now. have a nice turkey day
  34. Nov 25, 2004
  35. mitch

    mitch Dormant account

    Spot on Vesuvio.

    However there is some possible rationale behind Bethugs system.

    I believe that Bethug dips in and out of games on a regular basis and switches games especially if he starts to lose. ( I think that is right isn't it Bethug? ).

    Now if I was a casino owner and had the ability to adjust the software but didn't want to actually cheat the player by reducing the overall payout. I would definately arrange for the early part of a new betting session to be lucky for the player and recover the money later in the session.

    There is a very well observed phenomenom amongst gamblers that early success draws them in and causes them to bet more in the long run.

    Bethug would be exploiting this behaviour.

    Actually of course I think this is bollocks as someone like Cipher with his tracking software would spot this trend eventually and then take the casino down bigtime.

    Nope on second thoughts if I was the casino I'd play fair and let the house edge deliver my profit with no risk.

  36. Nov 25, 2004
  37. bethug

    bethug Banned User - Winner of the "<a href="http://www.c

    correct mitch
  38. Nov 26, 2004
  39. jetset

    jetset RIP Brian CAG

    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Quote: But I most definitely object to the manner in which they were challenged. Unquote

    I agree. SeanJohn has an unfortunate attitude at times and this post typifies it. I have nothing personal against the guy, but perhaps he should read over his posts before he hits the "submit" button.

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