A CHALLENGE to Cipher and Bethug (merged with Seanjohn's "apology" thread)

[seanjohn]

A CHALLENGE to Cipher and Bethug

I was going to post this under one of their threads but I reckon starting a new thread of my own could get more attention from the audience and of course Cipher and Bethug themselves. I have nothing ad hominem against these two individuals, just that I believe this inquiry would enlighten those ignorants including myself.

My challenge is composed of two parts, one in reasoning and one experimental.

First, please answer the following questions.Their subject is but simple and conceivable by anybody with a reasonable firmness:

1, Why would you need a boss/client when you have an edge in online gambling?. In Bethug's case, he has a day job and he also runs an online portal and from time to time you see him begging people to join through his site (confer posts over WOL). I am not familiar with what Cipher does for living but he sure has a job when Cipher mentioned he got clients all over the world. Shouldn't you be making more money than Bill Gates gambling online? And you decide to have a real day job? For the benefit of public?

2, Why aren't you banned by online casinos? You win 3-5 sessions with bonuses at any online casino you are banned. You win 10 sessions with no bonuses, em...they will probably let you stay, but winning 10 sessions itself is a tough feat anyway. How about winning 20 or 30? Or in Cipher's case with Casino Fortune...48 out of 50?! Anybody who runs a casino with half a brain will ban a customer winning that much, online or onland.

3, Loopholes don't exist, period. If they do, casinos don't exist. If a player finds a loophole and wins lots of cash, he will eventually be spotted and banned and the loophole fixed. If it was programmer and exploits a loophole he plotted when he was hired to write the software, both himself and his family and friends would be making millions, and the casino is dead. Could you oppose my logic?

4, Why wouldn't you do it secretly but instead going about telling everyone? And up to this point no casino has spotted you, you being so arrogant in the public? Answer to this question is because you are lying and you are losers to them. So they don't mind long-term losers bragging about short-term wins.

5, Why up to this point none of you have really put your strategy at the table? Why not post a few rules here for public scrutiny? Those who are interested could try it and see if it really works. THAT would shut me up if veterans like Caruso and Clayman turns up saying "Hey it works!!".

Secondly, if you were that good, why don't you show us how you can make money anyday. Why dont' we all go to Intercasino and watch you play 300 hands of any games you choose and see how you beat the casino for 3 days in a row? Would be better if you guys signed up through Casinomeister's affiliate link.

Of course, taking up the experimental challenge might not be practicable due to time zone differences and the like and I give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not obliged to, but ignoring or not answering in FULL the above questions in the first part could only entail that you guys are nothing but liars and chickens.

To conquer, use reasoning.
Please conquer me.

 

[cipher]

I was going to post this under one of their threads but I reckon starting a new thread of my own could get more attention from the audience and of course Cipher and Bethug themselves. I have nothing ad hominem against these two individuals, just that I believe this inquiry would enlighten those ignorants including myself.

My challenge is composed of two parts, one in reasoning and one experimental.

First, please answer the following questions.Their subject is but simple and conceivable by anybody with a reasonable firmness:

1, Why would you need a boss/client when you have an edge in online gambling?. In Bethug's case, he has a day job and he also runs an online portal and from time to time you see him begging people to join through his site (confer posts over WOL). I am not familiar with what Cipher does for living but he sure has a job when Cipher mentioned he got clients all over the world. Shouldn't you be making more money than Bill Gates gambling online? And you decide to have a real day job? For the benefit of public?

2, Why aren't you banned by online casinos? You win 3-5 sessions with bonuses at any online casino you are banned. You win 10 sessions with no bonuses, em...they will probably let you stay, but winning 10 sessions itself is a tough feat anyway. How about winning 20 or 30? Or in Cipher's case with Casino Fortune...48 out of 50?! Anybody who runs a casino with half a brain will ban a customer winning that much, online or onland.

3, Loopholes don't exist, period. If they do, casinos don't exist. If a player finds a loophole and wins lots of cash, he will eventually be spotted and banned and the loophole fixed. If it was programmer and exploits a loophole he plotted when he was hired to write the software, both himself and his family and friends would be making millions, and the casino is dead. Could you oppose my logic?

4, Why wouldn't you do it secretly but instead going about telling everyone? And up to this point no casino has spotted you, you being so arrogant in the public? Answer to this question is because you are lying and you are losers to them. So they don't mind long-term losers bragging about short-term wins.

5, Why up to this point none of you have really put your strategy at the table? Why not post a few rules here for public scrutiny? Those who are interested could try it and see if it really works. THAT would shut me up if veterans like Caruso and Clayman turns up saying "Hey it works!!".

Secondly, if you were that good, why don't you show us how you can make money anyday. Why dont' we all go to Intercasino and watch you play 300 hands of any games you choose and see how you beat the casino for 3 days in a row? Would be better if you guys signed up through Casinomeister's affiliate link.

Of course, taking up the experimental challenge might not be practicable due to time zone differences and the like and I give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not obliged to, but ignoring or not answering in FULL the above questions in the first part could only entail that you guys are nothing but liars and chickens.

To conquer, use reasoning.
Please conquer me.

Let me tell you something!!! I don't know who you are or what rock you've crawled out from under or if in fact you've even got a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. But when you run the word CHALLENGE up the old flag pole to me that indicates that you are willing to invest something in this other than running your mouth.

Now if that's the case, then by all means put up or shut up. There's no need at all to come up with one of these contrived schemes. Everything that I've done over the past six plus years is very well documented by the casinos themselves.

 

[spearmaster]

If that is not an idiot post, I don't know what is... sheesh.

Neither Bethug nor Cipher are obliged to respond to that, much less be called liars and chickens. On the other hand, your post, ad hominem, shows that you are truly an ignorant with no regard for anyone but yourself.

 

[universexf6]

What is this shit by seanjohn??

I think you better read newspapers than writing such a long
composed literature. I fell asleep when I read half.

 

[sw2003]

Hey may be that guy would like to put down $10K for each person that he is challenging! If any of them proved to be right, his $10K will be given to that person. How about that? If he doesn't take it up, he is a chicken!

This post is bordering on the rude and offensive side! I agree because of its nature, one shouldn't even really need to reply to it! But anyway ............

 

[The Dude]

Seanjohn was banned for 30 days with his comment in this thread
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search

Where I replied with this:

...Like I mentioned before - and this applies to everyone - expressing oneself is fine, but it should be done without needless subjectivity (or negativity). There is no need to make comments such these, I have been giving everyone fair warning about this.

This is not a board where insulting or flippant remarks are tolerated. seanjohn's account has been suspended for 30 days.

The only bullshit in this thread are comments like Seanjohn's.

And my word to everyone - knock it off, I'm serious as a heart attack

Well it looks like this suspension did no good.

...ignoring or not answering in FULL the above questions in the first part could only entail that you guys are nothing but liars and chickens.

That's pretty strong language for someone on probabtion (yes probabtion).
Banned again. This time for 90 days. Next time it's for good.

 

[bethug]

Can even have a holiday in peace.
Happy thankgiven to all.

I love all the real players out there

 

[Petunia]

**Was it not written "He with the bigger mouth has the smaller IQ?**

What can one say?

 

[caruso]

This is a rather odd reaction to a not unreasonable thread. The only aggressive remark was "liars and chickens", and I've seen a lot worse from many other posters (not just me). The poster is clearly intelligent, although he doesn't express himself as well as he could. Informed players have been trying - and failing - to call progressionists to substantiate their nonsensical claims since the first blackjack hand was played. Michael Shakelford's 20K challenge is more than enough to put these claims to bed once and for all. He is offering a ten to one bet against any "system" beating the house. He has had one taker - that failed, after 150,000 hands. Of the two possible contenders here, one has said Shakelford probably cheats and the other one has apparently STILL failed to elicit a reply.

I agree with the above remark to put up or shut up, and I'm very, very empathetic with the poster's point of view. The only people who benefit from the claim that betting systems can beat negative value games are casinos, because, like it or not, there are readers out there who will believe what they read and try it for themselves - I nearly did, once. Those people will lose money in the endeavour. That bothers me. The fact that they're adults who are old enough to think for themselves does mitigate against that, but I'm not the only person to find extremely irritating that these misleading and false claims constantly get aired.

Betting systems cannot overcome the house advantage. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are either foolish or malicious. If you don't understand why and want to know, ask me and I'll explain in detail.

 

[spearmaster]

Let me ask you something, Caruso.

Right or wrong, fair or not, how would you respond to a challenge like that which essentially insults the target?

If I insult you even if I am totally right, are you supposed to just say "Ok, you're right?"

Anyone can beat the house over a short term if they know what they are doing. No one can beat the house over a long term - you cannot overcome a house edge given infinite time.

Having not studied either Bethug's or Cipher's methods or claims in any detail, I won't comment further on them. But I most definitely object to the manner in which they were challenged.

 

[Vesuvio]

I agree it was a highly insulting post.

Anyway, for what it's worth I thought I'd respond (despite almost never having played a system) - I think there is a possibility a system will work on the entirely plausible basis that on-line casinos are rigged. This seems to be behind Cipher's approach, if not Bethug's.

1, Why would you need a boss/client when you have an edge in online gambling?. To have a steady income & insurance against the highly likely scenario that casinos will change at some point to nullify the strategy. Also, even if you have a successful system there's always going to be a limit to the amount you can make in any space of time (depending on the risks you're willing to take and how scaleable the system is). Not to mention you might want to get out and meet people

2, Why aren't you banned by online casinos?
Maybe they are from some, but casinos are highly unlikely to ban players who play without bonuses and make decent bets. Almost all systems are a huge long-term money spinner for the casinos, so they're not going to ban someone using one lightly.

3, Loopholes don't exist, period.
Not true - casino bonuses are one such loophole. The casinos allow it because overall they generate more revenue. In the same way they may have software which one or two people can work out how to crack but which more than makes up from that by the amount it takes (steals, if you like!) from others.

4, Why wouldn't you do it secretly but instead going about telling everyone?
Not really sure of the answer to this - Cipher presumably gets some tempting offers from investors. At the same time he provides some interesting data for the rest of us.

5, Why up to this point none of you have really put your strategy at the table?
Well, this loops back to question 4. It really would be madness to post full details of a successful system.

 

[bethug]

I been having a long running challenge for over Three years, to any flat bettor. i have shown over two weeks, how my system bets the casino.
you can take a look its free. There no way in one session i would play 150000 hands, also if i sit there and play all my winnings back i would be a fool.

After the holidays, someone please put your money up I will not waste my time for free. If you dont think my system work. Put your money up. human test, i am from the hood, i dont understand letting some computer symlater run a bunch of hands, which know way in hell tells me , the symlater can play like i do.

Caurso why dont you put your money up.

 

[universexf6]

I been having a long running challenge for over Three years, to any flat bettor. i have shown over two weeks, how my system bets the casino.
you can take a look its free. There no way in one session i would play 150000 hands, also if i sit there and play all my winnings back i would be a fool.

After the holidays, someone please put your money up I will not waste my time for free. If you dont think my system work. Put your money up. human test, i am from the hood, i dont understand letting some computer symlater run a bunch of hands, which know way in hell tells me , the symlater can play like i do.

Caurso why dont you put your money up.

Hello, Bethug. This is universexf6. It is my pleasure to talk to you here for the first time. Since I am interested in any betting systm available, please teach me where I can get in touch with your system on the internet. I am most delighted to see your site/programme/( or whatever it is ). Also excuse me in advance my English is not as good as Americans since I am a Japanse.

Regards

 

[Vesuvio]

I been having a long running challenge for over Three years, to any flat bettor. i have shown over two weeks, how my system bets the casino.

I really don't want to get into this pointless discussion... but it's absurd to 'challenge' a flat bettor. No-one's saying flat betting is 'better' than progressive betting. If the casino's fair you'll lose the same percentage long term either way (probably more actual money with progressive betting because your stakes become higher). Any half-sensible progressive system is odds on to win in the short term, which proves absolutely nothing. Unfortunately it means scam artists retain a degree of plausibility & casinos earn lots of money from the gullible.

 

[bethug]

Vesuvio, please explain , my runs for over a week at con and micro and casino365, u can see the screen shots. Using my sytstem. Please explain it.
Do you want me to do it again, all i ask is if it dont work, call me on it, put your money out there. All i am saying.

88 dollars to 13000
100 to 3000
on and on and on
10 bucks to 1400

explain it ??? please get your computer out,something

 

[Vesuvio]

Vesuvio, please explain , my runs for over a week at con and micro and casino365, u can see the screen shots. Using my sytstem. Please explain it.
Do you want me to do it again, all i ask is if it dont work, call me on it, put your money out there. All i am saying.

88 dollars to 13000
100 to 3000
on and on and on
10 bucks to 1400

explain it ??? please get your computer out,something

Bethug, I haven't seen any new screenshots you may have posted recently, but the old ones always just showed a few hands where you haphazardly chased your losses and were successful. On another day you'd have lost the big bets and gone bust.

If you can guarantee always to turn 88 into 13000 and prove it, say 10 times in a row, I'll bow down to you :notworthy Otherwise I'm inclined to think you've just had a lucky run as we all do at online casions. I once turned $2.5 into $2102.5 in half a second, but I'm not claiming it as a system. Negative progressions are tempting as you win most of the time - the problem is the other times...

Besides which - it's odd that you always claim your system is about making a small profit and getting out quick (say a 10% profit), but then you only want to post the times when you ignored that system and kept on gambling.

 

[bethug]

I didnt say i could trun 88 dollarrs into 13000 everytime,
But what i can do is win 200 dollars a day, i think if i should my system playing at 4 differnent casino over a week, winning everytime is more than enough proof.

I was showing to you haters you can bet the casino over and over,I also say call me out. Everytime someone call me out i perform.


If you dont think my system work, put your money up, i am done with all you players haters for now. have a nice turkey day

 

[mitch]

I really don't want to get into this pointless discussion... but it's absurd to 'challenge' a flat bettor. No-one's saying flat betting is 'better' than progressive betting. If the casino's fair you'll lose the same percentage long term either way (probably more actual money with progressive betting because your stakes become higher). Any half-sensible progressive system is odds on to win in the short term, which proves absolutely nothing. Unfortunately it means scam artists retain a degree of plausibility & casinos earn lots of money from the gullible.

Spot on Vesuvio.

However there is some possible rationale behind Bethugs system.

I believe that Bethug dips in and out of games on a regular basis and switches games especially if he starts to lose. ( I think that is right isn't it Bethug? ).

Now if I was a casino owner and had the ability to adjust the software but didn't want to actually cheat the player by reducing the overall payout. I would definately arrange for the early part of a new betting session to be lucky for the player and recover the money later in the session.

There is a very well observed phenomenom amongst gamblers that early success draws them in and causes them to bet more in the long run.

Bethug would be exploiting this behaviour.

Actually of course I think this is bollocks as someone like Cipher with his tracking software would spot this trend eventually and then take the casino down bigtime.

Nope on second thoughts if I was the casino I'd play fair and let the house edge deliver my profit with no risk.

Mitch

 

[bethug]

correct mitch

 

[jetset]

Quote: But I most definitely object to the manner in which they were challenged. Unquote

I agree. SeanJohn has an unfortunate attitude at times and this post typifies it. I have nothing personal against the guy, but perhaps he should read over his posts before he hits the "submit" button.

 

[Vesuvio]

I was showing to you haters you can bet the casino over and over,I also say call me out. Everytime someone call me out i perform.

If you dont think my system work, put your money up, i am done with all you players haters for now. have a nice turkey day

Bethug, please don't call someone a 'hater' for no reason, whether it's a national holiday for you or not. I've got no personal animosity towards you & I'm happy if anyone wins at casinos. I even put up a defense for you against the original poster! Your flat betting comment was besides the point (& you knew it), that's all.

If you're claiming now you can only beat rigged on-line casinos, then as I've said before - there's a chance you can. In the past though you've always claimed your system works just as well at land-based casinos.

 

[Petunia]

**And this has gone from a dirt-slinging, insulting challenge to a full blown ego-trip combined with a bit of arrogance .... and all this while the fire-starter is not even here to see the success!! Well done. **

 

[seanjohn]

Regarding the Cipher incident

First of all, I would like to thank the Casinomeister for extending the courtesy of letting me make one post before my suspension. I hereby take this oppurtunity to apologize to Cipher and Bethug for calling them chickens and whoever else whom I offended.

Allow me to continue my inquiry in a more civilized manner with more openmindedness, and I urge other smarter posters (Clayman, Caruso, Grandmaster, Got2bet, Jetset, etc) to share their valuable thoughts.

First, I have to admit that in attempt to set up a challenge to Cipher, I face a difficulty as his system gains success based on 'all-in' bets, which means challenging him for a few shortrun sessions is meaningless. He could have gone all in and won his first hand and grind out the rest of the session using minimum bets, nothing positive or negative about his system could be proven. To setup a fair test I would have to emulate or at least make the rules very close to those employed in the test set up by The Wizard, and from the thread 'Phonecian strand and scroll':

In such an instance as the Wiz' challenge there would be no ALL IN WAGERS and of that you can be certain.

However, immediately, he said:

The ALL IN WAGER is absolutely reserved for recreational purposes only and rarely if ever exceeds $500.00.

So it seems the no 'all-in' rule isn't a problem afterall!! However, Cipher has never made it clear (beside the all-in thing) as to why he didn't take up that challenge. Unless there are any other compelling reasons as to why Cipher don't take up The Wiz challenge, I would gladly lay a $500 bet that says Cipher would lose if he takes up the Wiz's challenge.

.....

From time to time we see some people come in here offering to sell their winning systems and books or whatever and most members make fun of them and bash them like dogs. However, I myself could find no difference between these people and Cipher. He made quite a lot of posts (i.e. strands) but they are only advertisement in disguise. Under the same thread, in response to 'universexf6''s interest to the system, Cipher wrote:

Yes, Japan is certainly O.K. by me, as 30 of my 48 active clients reside in Japan. If you like you can email me with an email address and I'll get back to you..

Yet he finds another target and takes him in private...now how many times have we seen that, both here and WOL? Why does Cipher gamble with other people's money with his close-to-perfect system and earn a COMMISSION (my assumption) but NOT gamble with his AND ONLY his own funds given his time contraints???

We all know what happens there in private with universexf6...Cipher is trying to make a sales! He is but a salesman, and all salesmen has only one agenda. If I had 100 clients and blindly tell half to buy stock A and half stock B, I do it often enough eventually a few of them will treat me like God.

Of course, again, Cipher is not obliged to answer anything; he has a right to remain silent. However I don't understand why he would continually exercise that right when only a few words could enlighten an ignorant like me and reject all my accusations.

I will go 'do' my 90-day time now.

 

[bethug]

sean john, If you want cipher to help u, u going about it the wrong way, why would cipher care about the wiz test, if he making money, dont matter if it his money or someone else. In real estate investing, you try to use other people money so you can invest your money else where, so you can make more money.

The only test counts in the end is neteller giving me my winning in my bank account on time

If the casinos think they can win , why do they kick people out, why do they miss with people.

I am in vegas right now, can to the table with 3000 , won 500 got up and move on , that pit boss was mad, They act like my 3000 they own it soon as i lay it on the table, i am not trying to give them crap.

If the casinos are so sure why do they have limits like 15 to 500, You now why cause people like me.

The haters keep popping up.

 

[bethug]

forgot something, cipher program works, I know a few people making money off it.

Keep point making money. If cipher was robbing people , they would have spilled the beans by now.