$4700 in Fraudulent Charges, then $12000 in Withdrawals Taken When Trying to Fix it

I disagree that Clubworld has any grounds in closing the account, even temporarily. The customer has done nothing to merit such treatment. He has made it clear that he understands CW isn't the source of the problem and he has no problem with them or their processors. In short, he's a great customer who should be catered to if - and I'm going to go ahead and say this bluntly - if Clubworld is still a trustworthy group. In this day and age, knowing the word "chargeback" isn't some shady practice, it's a necessity in our daily lives, yet CW is acting as if he's whispered the devil's name three times or something. That's bogus. And it shouldn't be supported here in the community. It seems like CW continues to get the benefit of the doubt based on their accreditation here, but that accreditation is supposed to mean something.
 
Just to add my 2 cents here - about a year ago, there was a fraudulent charge made from the processors at Club World and when I went directly to CWC and asked them about it (asked is the key word here, not demanded, not accused, not yelled... just asked) they immediately closed my account and told me that if I was calling them thieves that they didn't need my business. I was shocked - I wasn't a random once in a while player, I had deposited thousands and thousands over the 2 years I played. So, what they are doing to the OP doesn't surprise me at all. I have wondered myself why in the world they are accredited here but I figure you all knew something I didn't. I had to do a chargeback on the funds as it was almost $1000 which then stopped me from being allowed to play at any of the CWC groups. I personally think they are hiding something, but that's just my opinion.
 
Some food for thought here........I wonder since Rushmore is rogue if they themselves are telling their processors to dip into the customers funds so they can continue operations since their reputation is in the pits.

I wouldn't be shocked.....but I suppose that is something no one will ever know.
 
Just to add my 2 cents here - about a year ago, there was a fraudulent charge made from the processors at Club World and when I went directly to CWC and asked them about it (asked is the key word here, not demanded, not accused, not yelled... just asked) they immediately closed my account and told me that if I was calling them thieves that they didn't need my business. I was shocked - I wasn't a random once in a while player, I had deposited thousands and thousands over the 2 years I played. So, what they are doing to the OP doesn't surprise me at all. I have wondered myself why in the world they are accredited here but I figure you all knew something I didn't. I had to do a chargeback on the funds as it was almost $1000 which then stopped me from being allowed to play at any of the CWC groups. I personally think they are hiding something, but that's just my opinion.

This does look odd, and very wrong. You did not threaten, just questioned a discrepancy in the charges between your transaction history at the casino and on the card. All they needed to have done was reassure you that you had made a mistake, and that you had indeed been credited with all the amounts charged to your card. It looks like they fear their processors, so rather than challenge them to demonstrate the charges are all legit, they shut you up and kick you to the kerb.

This does explain why the OP suffered a similar draconian measure.

Maybe they DO know this is going on, but also know that in order to continue processing to the US, they just have to "suck it up", rather than make a fuss to a processor who might just as easily "do a runner" as investigate the complaint and show the charge in question was legit. Rushmore certainly seem to know, they have "burned" endless processors, yet still can't seem to find one that works. Maybe this is now the end game for CWC and US players, with them too getting routinely screwed by the only processors they can find willing to process to the US, and dare not complain lest the processor just refuses to do any further business with them, leaving them with no means at all to pay and take deposits from US players.

Maybe this problem is even more widespread than thought, but with many charges going unnoticed because they all look like legit but miscoded deposits.

If CWC and others are being hit with chargebacks, they have their processors to blame for skimming money from failed deposit attempts. If the authorisation was allowed to lapse, it wouldn't be a problem as by the time players noticed, it would have been dropped, rather than taken as a charge.

Maybe this is the time for US players to go "cold turkey" and quit till a more favourable administration gets into power, or the current one sees that a total ban isn't working, and implements some kind of licensing arrangements instead.

Casinos are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think players are going to "eat" a $4700 fraud from a processor rather than attempt to get redress. If they don't want chargebacks, they need to implement a proper internal complaints procedure that can investigate such incidents without the need for the player to involve the bank. Instead, merely asking about a charge that doesn't look right can get you kicked out, hardly a policy designed to persuade players to keep their banks and US authorities out of it in favour of an industry led solution.

It seems from this that the best non-chargeback solution would be to go straight to PAB, but DON'T forewarn the casino that you suspect their processor has misappropriated funds. If Max is satisfied that the tally of casino cashier transaction entries doesn't tally with a verified card statement, the casino will NOT be able to bury the matter by kicking the player out, but will have to explain how the charges DO add up, or admit to a mistake and put things right.

I am now starting to think something bigger is going on, and Tom has in fact left the company, rather than being on holiday, and the difference we are seeing is the result of a shift in company policy to one of not being active in the forum as Tom was, but as one of the rep merely being a conduit between players, the forum team, and the casino management.

January is an opportunity to do some more digging, as CWC always turn up to the Meister meeting, and even sponsor some free beer at the start. Tom always comes, and is likely to come again next year if it turns out he still works for CWC. Players can also wait till around 9:30 and ask the CWC team some searching questions after they have become well lubricated from the free beer;)
 
wow just saw this. what a joke. They did the same thing to me you can merge my thread here if you want.

I will be pushing for criminal charges and hiring a lawyer. I have the money to do it and I will spend it to put whoever it is behind bars. Im pretty pissed off right now. What if I allowed a $25,000 limit on my cards? They can just steal it? And say "sorry wasnt us and btw we are going to close your account if you mention it again"

Enjoy your time in prison. SCUM

and Im sorry nifty the shill if this post bothers you.
 
This does look odd, and very wrong. You did not threaten, just questioned a discrepancy in the charges between your transaction history at the casino and on the card. All they needed to have done was reassure you that you had made a mistake, and that you had indeed been credited with all the amounts charged to your card. It looks like they fear their processors, so rather than challenge them to demonstrate the charges are all legit, they shut you up and kick you to the kerb.

This does explain why the OP suffered a similar draconian measure.

Maybe they DO know this is going on, but also know that in order to continue processing to the US, they just have to "suck it up", rather than make a fuss to a processor who might just as easily "do a runner" as investigate the complaint and show the charge in question was legit. Rushmore certainly seem to know, they have "burned" endless processors, yet still can't seem to find one that works. Maybe this is now the end game for CWC and US players, with them too getting routinely screwed by the only processors they can find willing to process to the US, and dare not complain lest the processor just refuses to do any further business with them, leaving them with no means at all to pay and take deposits from US players.

Maybe this problem is even more widespread than thought, but with many charges going unnoticed because they all look like legit but miscoded deposits.

If CWC and others are being hit with chargebacks, they have their processors to blame for skimming money from failed deposit attempts. If the authorisation was allowed to lapse, it wouldn't be a problem as by the time players noticed, it would have been dropped, rather than taken as a charge.

Maybe this is the time for US players to go "cold turkey" and quit till a more favourable administration gets into power, or the current one sees that a total ban isn't working, and implements some kind of licensing arrangements instead.

Casinos are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think players are going to "eat" a $4700 fraud from a processor rather than attempt to get redress. If they don't want chargebacks, they need to implement a proper internal complaints procedure that can investigate such incidents without the need for the player to involve the bank. Instead, merely asking about a charge that doesn't look right can get you kicked out, hardly a policy designed to persuade players to keep their banks and US authorities out of it in favour of an industry led solution.

It seems from this that the best non-chargeback solution would be to go straight to PAB, but DON'T forewarn the casino that you suspect their processor has misappropriated funds. If Max is satisfied that the tally of casino cashier transaction entries doesn't tally with a verified card statement, the casino will NOT be able to bury the matter by kicking the player out, but will have to explain how the charges DO add up, or admit to a mistake and put things right.

I am now starting to think something bigger is going on, and Tom has in fact left the company, rather than being on holiday, and the difference we are seeing is the result of a shift in company policy to one of not being active in the forum as Tom was, but as one of the rep merely being a conduit between players, the forum team, and the casino management.

January is an opportunity to do some more digging, as CWC always turn up to the Meister meeting, and even sponsor some free beer at the start. Tom always comes, and is likely to come again next year if it turns out he still works for CWC. Players can also wait till around 9:30 and ask the CWC team some searching questions after they have become well lubricated from the free beer;)
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and Tom has in fact left the company
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do you mean tom isn't employed there any more ???
 
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and Tom has in fact left the company
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do you mean tom isn't employed there any more ???

I do not know, but this is a damn long vacation, and in the past (with other reps at other casinos), we have found out that the "long vacation" was in fact down to the rep either leaving the company or moving to a different role, but without bothering to keep Casinomeister informed.

We will know for sure at the end of January and the annual Meister Meeting.

Maybe someone who still plays there could PM the replacement stand in rep and ask simply "Does Tom still work for the company". If she says "yes", follow up by asking when he is expected to return.
 
well i'm sure most have read the thread i posted about the attempted fraudster that as thwarted off on my cc last week

this is putting more value on our brick and mortar casino's here in the states like i just did a couple trips to fox woods and Mohegan sun and if you way the free room and food well it speaks for it self
 
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I don't think that I will play at CWC until this has been cleared up.

This has been bothering me for a while...

The withdrawel process is way too long and last time that I wanted to cash out to MPL...took a week.:rolleyes: If Inetbet can do it in under 12 hours?...then why would I play at CWC?

I now play at Inetbet....but that could change,too. Although Inetbet has stepped it up somewhat than before.

It's becoming so frustrating for US.
 
Have not read the whole thread, but I had a security breach on my credit card 2 years ago right around the time I deposited on Rushmore, thankfully my bank phoned me and canceled the card and I was not responsible for the charges.
 
So, you don't have SMS notifications for every transaction? :eek:

Here in Belarus we can add this option to our cards (not in all banks though), and it does help to catch unauthoruzed transaction in SECONDS after it had been made.

Only checking bank statements from time to time? No much help as you can see.
 
So, you don't have SMS notifications for every transaction? :eek:

Here in Belarus we can add this option to our cards (not in all banks though), and it does help to catch unauthoruzed transaction in SECONDS after it had been made.

Only checking bank statements from time to time? No much help as you can see.

This is starting to catch on here, but the problem is that some banks just see it as another way to make money, so like having to pay up to £2 just to draw our own money out of an ATM, we have to pay a charge to receive SMS notification of every transaction.

It's a good idea though, and is taken for granted by Neteller users who get an email every time they make a deposit to a casino. The Neteller system could be better though, as the notification does not tell you which merchant, for this you have to log in to Neteller.

UK banks do seem to be changing policy though, and are making SMS notification "free" as part of the account package. However, it is credit cards and debit cards that would really benefit from SMS notification, as these are more likely to be raided by fraudsters than our bank accounts.
 
This is starting to catch on here, but the problem is that some banks just see it as another way to make money, so like having to pay up to £2 just to draw our own money out of an ATM, we have to pay a charge to receive SMS notification of every transaction.

It's a good idea though, and is taken for granted by Neteller users who get an email every time they make a deposit to a casino. The Neteller system could be better though, as the notification does not tell you which merchant, for this you have to log in to Neteller.

UK banks do seem to be changing policy though, and are making SMS notification "free" as part of the account package. However, it is credit cards and debit cards that would really benefit from SMS notification, as these are more likely to be raided by fraudsters than our bank accounts.

At least the will see that this was unauthorized transaction, and quickly contact Neteller. SMS notifications for us cost about $1 / month and being deducted directly from card.

In some banks in Belarus VIP clients (with Visa Gold and Platinum, for example) can just set daily limit / transaction amount , by exceeding which they will be called from bank for their approval. They even can set this up them for EVERY SINGLE transaction, which won't be processed before it was being approved.
 
Hi Keno,

Please try to look at this from our point of view.

You have a number of accounts across our group in the name of your wife (I presume) with a fair amount of deposits between them. Then after we start processing withdrawals for a large win we receive an email from you with the subject line ‘Many Unauthorized Charges – Final Notice’ stating that you will be initiating chargebacks.

Immediately afterwards you send another email saying that actually it not our casino that you are going to chargeback your deposits, it is a different one. You sent the email to us by mistake and that we should continue processing your withdrawals.

It is not unreasonable for my Risk Team to suspect that you are waiting for your withdrawals to clear before doing the chargebacks with us too. As such they deactivated your account to put a hold on any further deposits and withdrawals while they investigated. During the investigation we see that you have created an affiliate account and referred yourself (and only yourself) and have been receiving commission payments.

I hope that you can appreciate the concerns my Risk team had. You may have engineered a situation where if you lose you get the affiliate commissions and if you win you will receive the winnings - and either way once you get paid you will do chargebacks.

We realise that this may well not be the case, and that this could all be a big misunderstanding. This issue is still on-going, the funds are still in your casino balance and we have been in regular contact with you since you raised the matter.

I am sure that we will be able to bring this matter to its conclusion very soon.

Regards
Tom
 
Are you allowed to do that? :confused:
Absolutely NOT!
That is totally forbidden by all affy programs I know.

Seems from what Tom posted, that the OP was not being 100% honest with the forum members - why is Nifty not at all surprised about that! :rolleyes:

KK
 
I stopped playing at cwc last year when I caught someone trying to purchase plane tickets to spain and germany off a debit card used exclusively for cwc...It was the second time...So no more on line for me...To bad I miss it..
 
I stopped playing at cwc last year when I caught someone trying to purchase plane tickets to spain and germany off a debit card used exclusively for cwc...It was the second time...So no more on line for me...To bad I miss it..


that is terrible i hope u canceled the card :what:
 
Hi Keno,

Please try to look at this from our point of view.

You have a number of accounts across our group in the name of your wife (I presume) with a fair amount of deposits between them. Then after we start processing withdrawals for a large win we receive an email from you with the subject line ‘Many Unauthorized Charges – Final Notice’ stating that you will be initiating chargebacks.

Immediately afterwards you send another email saying that actually it not our casino that you are going to chargeback your deposits, it is a different one. You sent the email to us by mistake and that we should continue processing your withdrawals.

It is not unreasonable for my Risk Team to suspect that you are waiting for your withdrawals to clear before doing the chargebacks with us too. As such they deactivated your account to put a hold on any further deposits and withdrawals while they investigated. During the investigation we see that you have created an affiliate account and referred yourself (and only yourself) and have been receiving commission payments.

I hope that you can appreciate the concerns my Risk team had. You may have engineered a situation where if you lose you get the affiliate commissions and if you win you will receive the winnings - and either way once you get paid you will do chargebacks.

We realise that this may well not be the case, and that this could all be a big misunderstanding. This issue is still on-going, the funds are still in your casino balance and we have been in regular contact with you since you raised the matter.

I am sure that we will be able to bring this matter to its conclusion very soon.

Regards
Tom
Hi Tom,

One major point that you're overlooking is that any "chargebacks" I was referring to were NOT legitimate deposits to any casino. I never ever said that, but your staff kept telling me I did and kept twisting my words around. Read the chats and the email responses I received. Listen to the phone logs. The entire time, I made it crystal clear that I was merely disputing the 25 unauthorized transactions themselves, and nothing more. This has been made clear to your reps many times. And I have all the documentation needed to back up my story.

But I don't get CW's actions. Are you saying I shouldn't have the right to dispute false charges and set a reasonable deadline if nobody claims them? Or are you saying that I didn't do the right thing by notifying all the casinos and giving them a week to claim the transactions? Because that IS the position your staff put me in. I was denied the opportunity to recover my money without repercussions. I let your staff know several times that there is no threat of a chargeback to any legitimate deposits, but they kept ignoring me. They told me that simply because I used the word "chargeback" that my accounts would remain closed forever with no refunds and no appeal. You know Tom, there is a huge difference between charging back fraudulent transactions and charging back legitimate deposits. All I ever did was the former, yet your staff kept accusing me of the latter.

Overall, I can understand why your representatives would close the account...at first. It's very easy to see how someone could misinterpret the situation based on one or two out of context chats or emails. But only at first. Why was the misunderstanding not corrected when the whole story was presented the first time? Or the second time? Or the third? Why did everyone just ignore me for weeks on end? And when I finally got someone to tell me what was going on, why did they also not correct the misunderstanding when they were given the whole story? Instead, everyone shut me out and forced me to come here.

As far as my wife's name goes...

Your cashier system automatically changes the name of the casino account holder if their spouse's (or anyone's) credit card and billing info is the first one to be used on that account. It happened on 2-3 of your casinos. All 6 casinos started off in my name, and those 2 or 3 you're talking about got changed after the first deposit. Your customer service staff even instructed us how to handle that when the accounts were first opened -- they told us BOTH to submit faxback forms. In fact, you will see our both of our faxback forms and images of ALL credit cards used on file with your casino group. In addition, we were both told that a husband/wife MUST share an account for each casino, because you are only allowed one account per household. Considering your staff guided my wife and I through the whole process, I'm surprised you would mention this at all. Not only is it not an offense, but it's the way your reps told us to do things, once the cashier software had already changed the account holder name. So why even bring this up?...other than to try and make me look bad to the people in this thread.

For the affiliate issue, my wife and I are both professional poker players. Almost every poker room we've played on allowed one of us to play on the other person's affiliate account without hassle. We thought that casino affiliate programs worked in a similar fashion. Obviously that's not the case with yours, and we both apologize for it. But I don't see how this has much bearing on us getting charged $4700 from failed deposit attempts on Rushmore, and our courtesy emails asking you and the other casino groups if you either recognized the descriptors, or wanted to claim the transactions.


So Tom, how do you want to proceed? I started filling out the PAB form last night and never finished. Would you prefer to handle everything via this thread and PM, or should I continue with the PAB application? Also, I agree with you about us being close to a settlement. As far as I'm concerned, there's really not much more to rehash. I laid out the whole story, and now it's just a matter of you believing that that's the way everything went down, and that there are no chargeback threats to legitimate deposits at your casinos or at anyone else's.

Actually, one more bit of info: Rushmore even told me which charges not to dispute. Kate from Deposits sent a number of emails in response to my questions, and in one of them attached a list of all legitimate charges. Their list matched exactly with my spreadsheet. So we do in fact have the 25 fraudulent transactions isolated at this point.
 
Seems from what Tom posted, that the OP was not being 100% honest with the forum members
It's always a good idea to wait for the other party's reply before saying stuff like this. You're right though, I didn't tell you my entire life's story. Did you really want me to get into the (unrelated) things Tom mentioned about the affiliate stuff or about a husband & wife sharing accounts? Look how long the OP is already!
 
I understand that there is a difference between a chargeback of a fraudulent withdrawal and a legitimate one, but you should give the casinos a chance to work out exactly what happened. It sounds pretty confusing to me - especially since you have another person in your household involved in this matter as well.

You have to understand, any time the word "chargeback" is used, casinos become totally paranoid - and most of our members here should feel the same way. A chargebacker can cause a processor to shut down its processing not only for one specific casino, but for a broad range of them. Chargebackers have caused problems not only for casinos - but for countless innocent players - many of them forum members here.

We have a forum policy that if you chargeback, your membership is terminated. I would suggest not to do this.

...
For the affiliate issue, my wife and I are both professional poker players. Almost every poker room we've played on allowed one of us to play on the other person's affiliate account without hassle. We thought that casino affiliate programs worked in a similar fashion. ...
That's sounds pretty odd to me. I've never heard of any site allowing this. And I'm sure that's covered in most affiliate terms and conditions. Tom said you were playing on your account - not your wife's.
 
It seemed from the initial story that the money had been confiscated and the decision final. It now seems it isn't.

Maybe the best solution would be along the lines I suggested, that the 12K be frozen for 6 months to ensure that the OP isn't trying anything on, and then he is asked to sign a deposit declaration form for all deposits at all CWC related accounts, and that his wife sign one too.

As for the affiliate setup, it is unusual for this to be allowed - I have only seen it allowed once, at the long defunct Casino Action group, and even then it was a concession that was meant to allow the affiliate to check out that things were working, rather than use the program to gain an edge. I also find it hard to believe poker rooms allow it, but they also seem to offer secret special deals to their big pro players that are strictly against the terms for lesser mortals.

However, we still have an escalating problem with unauthorised charges being made left, right, and centre from players' cards. This should not be possible in an honest and secure environment, so something has gone very wrong somewhere.

If large numbers of players are seeing these unexpected charges, not all will show restraint, and there will be a steady stream of chargebacks. This could become a flood if the banks decide to go further and pull back every transactio that appears to violate UIGEA, whether or not it has been disputed by the cardholder.
 

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