$4700 in Fraudulent Charges, then $12000 in Withdrawals Taken When Trying to Fix it

You have to understand, any time the word "chargeback" is used, casinos become totally paranoid
I don't know of any other terms to use when describing how to handle fraudulent charges. I've used all the synonyms I know: "chargeback", "reversal", and "getting the bank involved." Casinos should not get hung up on one word, and should not completely dismiss a player, their withdrawals, and all of their action because of it.

Of course I understand the initial paranoia. But doesn't legitimate fraud happen to players enough that a casino group as big as CW has experience with false positives? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't. Casinos MUST allow people to fight legitimate fraud without hassles such as the one I've experienced. CW can clearly see the difference, and that it's obviously the case here. Geez...I even have Rushmore's emails owning up to the charges! Why nobody from CW will accept any evidence from me is mind boggling. The situation was handled poorly by CW the whole way through.

That's sounds pretty odd to me. I've never heard of any site allowing this. And I'm sure that's covered in most affiliate terms and conditions. Tom said you were playing on your account - not your wife's.
I don't know of any poker affiliate T&Cs that outright allow it, no. But a large amount of them look the other way. I was a poker affiliate for 10 years, and still am at 1 or 2 places, and I am (or was) very knowledgeable about the online poker scene. I've even had conversations with affiliate managers from 2 different rooms, openly discussing my wife as a player on my affiliate account. Here, it was the opposite -- my wife has the affiliate account and I play the games.

We have been trying to sign up players (like we did over the years with poker), but no one will bite. As silly as it sounds, most of the poker players we know don't gamble. My wife is the same way. She doesn't get much enjoyment from -EV games. Tom is correct. The accounts on CW are all primarily my player accounts. Despite being a mid-to-high limit poker pro, my wife plays casino games very rarely, and plays much smaller than I do. Take a look at the paragraph in response to Tom about how the casino cashiers automatically change the name of the account holder. I gave a pretty long-winded explanation of it above.

We have a forum policy that if you chargeback, your membership is terminated. I would suggest not to do this.
Agreed. I've done everything in my power to avoid charging anything back, and look at what's happened to both my accounts and my reputation as a player. I know you haven't seen Rushmore's emails to me, but despite my numerous requests for them to issue the reversals from their end, Kate (from their "Deposits Department") keeps alluding that they won't do it, and that I have to charge the transactions back on my side. To quote from her 2nd email response on the issue:

"Dear XXXXX

It seems as these transactions were through a processor we used to use and I have heard that unfortunately some players were charged in error and therefore have charged back those specific amounts. As you seem to know chargeback are not good for casinos or processors but obviously if it was the processors fault players are in the right to get back their funds."


I can PM you the emails if you want.
 
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Just to verify the t & c's of the affiliate program...

3.3 Commercial Use Only. This Marketing opportunity is for commercial use only, and you may not make purchases, directly or indirectly, through your Tracker for your own personal use or to fraudulently increase the Marketing Fees payables to you. If you wish to make test transactions to evaluate the system, including Purchases, please contact affiliates@affiliateedge.com so we can refund the charges once you have completed your testing. Transactions made in violation of this provision will be deemed Fraud Traffic and we will deduct such Purchases or traffic from your Marketing Fees.

IMO you should loose every bit of commission you ever made and it should come out of your w/d and they should close your aff acct. Its a good ideal to always read the t & c's of every affiliate program you join. It's YOUR responsibility to know what's legal and what's not.
 
Oh, what the heck. Since it seems we're handling this in the thread, and since I have some free time right now...

---------- RUSHMORE'S RESPONSE TO MY INITIAL EMAIL (Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:34 AM)(16 days after I sent the original email to everyone) ----------​

Dear Keno

I am sorry that i havent gotten back to you sooner the email was not delivered to my box until now, and that this has happened. Please let me know if you did charge back these amounts?

Kind regards

Kate Roberts
Deposits Department

---------- ME (Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:04 AM) ----------​

Hi Kate,

Thanks for the reply. No worries on the timing. As they say, better late than never.

I'm just as anxious as you are to get to the bottom of this. It strikes me odd however, that you would ask if the transactions were charged back without first saying whether any of them are yours. Chargebacks on those transactions would only affect you if the charges belong to one or more Rushmore casinos. Did you want to claim any of those charges as either failed deposit attempts during last month's processor issues, or successful deposits that were never marked as such and therefore never added to my account balance? Or, do you recognize those transactions or descriptors for any other reason, or from any other casino?

Once you claim the transactions that are Rushmore's responsibility, or once you clear your processors or affiliates of any of these fraudulent charges, then I will be happy to fill you in on the details of my progress.

In the meantime, let me know if there is anything else you require from me.

Thank You,
Keno

---------- RUSHMORE (Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:26 AM) ----------​

Dear Keno

It seems as these transactions were through a processor we used to use and I have heard that unfortunately some players were charged in error and therefore have charged back those specific amounts. As you seem to know chargeback are not good for casinos or processors but obviously if it was the processors fault players are in the right to get back their funds.

I hope to hear from you soon with an update.


Kind regards

Kate Roberts
Deposits Department

---------- ME (Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:33 AM) ----------​

Thanks, Kate. It helps a great deal to know the source of the transactions. Can you be a bit more specific? Do all those transactions come from your group, or only some?

I'm with you in trying to avoid chargebacks. That is why I had sent this email out to several casino groups a couple of weeks ago -- to give the casinos the opportunity to issue refunds on those charges before getting the banks involved. The same applies for Rushmore of course. I don't mind giving you a chance to make good on the charges.

How would you prefer to proceed? The transactions have not been charged back yet. Do you want to initiate the reversal from your end? If so, I could give you a day or two to do so before taking action on my end.

Let me know.

Thanks,
Keno

---------- RUSHMORE (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:54 AM) ----------​

Dear Keno

I have attached a list of the transactions that did were credited and played in our casino, the rest I think came from the processor we used previously, as long as you don't charge back on the transactions that are included in this mail that is fine.

Once again I am sorry about this.


Kind regards

Kate Roberts
Deposits Department

---------- ME (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:59 AM) ----------​

Hi Kate,

Did you leave off the attachment? I don't see it.

Thanks,
Keno

---------- ME (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:01 AM) ----------​

I should have that list as part of my full spreadsheet. You're talking about the cashier (deposit) history for Rushmore, Cherry Red, Slots Oasis, and Slotsville, right? I never used Pure Vegas before.

Thanks,
Keno

---------- RUSHMORE (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:03 AM) ----------​

Dear Keno

Sorry i forgot to attach the actual list.


Kind regards

Kate Roberts
Deposits Department

---------- ME (Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:07 AM) ----------​

Kate,

Just to be clear, you want me to charge back the unauthorized transactions* myself? You do not want to issue the reversal from your side?

Thanks,
Keno

*unauthorized transaction = any transactions on my cards that do not belong to any other casinos, and are not on the list you attached

---------- RUSHMORE (no response since) ----------​
 
IMO you should loose every bit of commission you ever made and it should come out of your w/d and they should close your aff acct. Its a good ideal to always read the t & c's of every affiliate program you join. It's YOUR responsibility to know what's legal and what's not.
Dude, chill out a bit...

First off, the affiliate account and player accounts have been active for months. Not one penny of affiliate commissions were ever paid. So apparently, this was an issue with the affiliate company months ago and they just hadn't ever said anything. I don't like the fact that they "saved it" to use later as an excuse to complicate things when it's time to withdraw.

Also, I'm trying to figure out why this is even part of the discussion. The whole time I was in contact with CW, the ONLY reason I was ever given for the account closure was that I said I was going to charge back all of my deposits (which I NEVER said). These other issues about husband/wife and the affiliate program were never even spoke about as a problem in the past, even though commission on the affiliate account wasn't paid for any of the past few months, and even though the staff instructed us to set the player accounts up this way. Tom's post in this thread is the first I'm hearing about either of those things.
 
Although they don't say so outright, it seems Rushmore are effectively telling all those players who had these charges deducted in error to issue a chargeback via their bank. It looks like Rushmore are happy that this action can't hurt them now that they have ditched this processor, but their attitude seems to be "sod the rest of the industry" who's collective interest would be best served by the casino dealing with this from their end, leaving the US banks none the wiser.

If Rushmore are routinely dismissing responsibilty and telling players to go to their banks, this could have a serious impact on the whole industry. It won't take much for those players not paid by Rushmore to also believe they have been given the green light to hit the errant processor (as Rushmore always blames it's processors for players not getting paid on time) by charging back even those deposits that made it through and were played on the grounds that they would at least partly compensate for the withdrawal Rushmore claims has been misappropriated by a "processor we no longer use".


Perhaps Rushmore should be triple rogued for telling it's players to issue chargebacks against the processor, rather than the casino taking care of the matter.

The real problem is how the banks will handle it. Will they accept the players tale that they only want to charge back for the 25 duff cycles they bought from that shop in Dubai, but that the other 150 worked fine and should not be chanrged back for:rolleyes:

I am sure the bank will go into "nanny state mode" and charge back all 175 cycle purchases, 25 from Rushmore, and 150 from a wide variety of other casinos.

I am still surprised that Barclays haven't questioned my sudden purchase of almost 10 grands worth of computer software when playing at Casino La Vida earlier in the year:rolleyes: I am thinking what the hell are they thinking doing this miscoding trick for UK player purchases, don't they want to stay under the radar so that the trick works for as long as possible for US players.:confused:
 
SLIGHT CORRECTION: The amount of pending withdrawals should be $10,500 and not $12,000. (Mods/Admins, feel free to update the thread title) My wife just told me that my estimate is off, and that she remembers the individual amounts from when she last saw the cashier's withdrawal tabs. All together, it was $7000 from one casino and $3500 from another. Disclaimer: We're both working off of memory for this amount. I don't have an exact total because the CW cashiers are unavailable to me right now.
 
SLIGHT CORRECTION: The amount of pending withdrawals should be $10,500 and not $12,000. (Mods/Admins, feel free to update the thread title) My wife just told me that my estimate is off, and that she remembers the individual amounts from when she last saw the cashier's withdrawal tabs. All together, it was $7000 from one casino and $3500 from another. Disclaimer: We're both working off of memory for this amount. I don't have an exact total because the CW cashiers are unavailable to me right now.

Perhaps better record keeping would have allowed you to spot what the Rushmore processor was up to before they had walked off with $4700. If you only have a rough estimate from memory of what you are due from pending withdrawals, how can you be sure you have not been screwed over.

Every time I make a withdrawal, I write it down on a table on a sheet of paper. When it gets credited to my account, I cross it off. This table has occasionally prompted me to chase up an unusually slow withdrawal, or one where the wrong amount has been paid because of an entry from a while ago remaining whilst all later ones have been crossed off because they have been paid.
 
Perhaps better record keeping would have allowed you to spot what the Rushmore processor was up to before they had walked off with $4700.
Perhaps. Still, you should see the records I have. They're not 100% perfect, but they're pretty good nonetheless. I can PM you whatever you want to look over (except for casino cashier histories or the pending withdrawals on CW). But I will say one thing about that, since it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound: Many of the processors's descriptors and such make it difficult to trace the source...especially for a player who deposits a LOT, and in many of the same amounts. 50, 50, 50, 100, 100, 25, 25, 50, 50, etc. is what my CC statements and cashier histories look like. Add that in with the fact that I have played on almost every casino from each group, and it gets kind of messy no matter how good you are at keeping records. IMO, it's left that way on purpose. The casinos aren't in any rush to fix it. And why would they be? Anything that trips up the player (vague or hidden bonus clauses, conflicting information from incompetent phone or chat agents, declined withdrawals that get put back in the account with no explanation, etc.) benefits the casino, and never the player.

If you only have a rough estimate from memory of what you are due from pending withdrawals, how can you be sure you have not been screwed over.
Cashier histories, when checked against bank and CC statements. But the cashier histories were taken away because the accounts got locked. I already got paid several $2500 withdrawal checks from these latest Keno wins :))) on 2 different CW casinos. The remaining $10,000 or $12,000 shows in the pending withdrawal section of those cashiers.

Incidentally, I hope you're not saying I'm in the wrong, or I should lose the money I'm entitled to receive, simply because I caught this fraud a week or two later than I should have. You seem like a really good poster, so I doubt that was your implication. Also, I didn't notify the casino groups until after I compiled that deposit spreadsheet from my CC statements, had all the correct facts in front of me, and was able to attach a list of the 25 fraudulent transactions -- amounts, dates, descriptors, etc. Putting the spreadsheet together took an additional week or so.
 
Immediately afterwards you send another email saying that actually it not our casino that you are going to chargeback your deposits, it is a different one.
I didn't catch this on the first reading, but I never said I would be charging back anything other than the fraudulent transactions. Once again, I find CW being disingenuous in order to make me look like the villain and to try to rationalize confiscating my withdrawals. Tom, can you point to the email where I said I was going to charge back deposits at any casino?

It is not unreasonable for my Risk Team to suspect that you are waiting for your withdrawals to clear before doing the chargebacks with us too.
Yes it is. See above.

As other people have said, it is absurd to put players in a position where they cannot try to recover stolen money without fearing the loss of their legitimate winnings.
 
Keno,

Did you post a copy of the original email you sent to all the casinos regarding thing? I called myself reading this thread but if you posted it, I missed it. That might clarify for all readers what exactly was said.

There has got to be a way for casinos and players to work together regarding unauthorized charges. Casinos cannot expect a player to eat these charges. If that be the case, then no one is safe to deposit via credit/debit card because we have no recourse in recovering fraudelent charges. Casinos need to work with players with these problems and they need to make it top priority.

Because of the problems I am having, I have implemented a plan on how I will deposit and where. Never, ever will I give out my 'real' banking information to anyone online. I will use prepaid cards only and change them with regularity. I will never have more than a night's worth of depositing on it either. At least that way, they can't steal what's not there.

I would rather that casinos refuse US players than leave us without recourse for theft.
 
No, not yet. I only posted the emails with Rushmore so far. I'll post the ClubWorld emails later this morning, when I have more time.
Haven't you submitted a PAB about your issue?
If you have, or are intending to (and I strongly think you should), then you MUST STOP posting any more information about your issue!

Otherwise Maxd would be justified in tossing your PAB out for breach of the terms.

KK
 
Haven't you submitted a PAB about your issue?
If you have, or are intending to (and I strongly think you should), then you MUST STOP posting any more information about your issue!

Otherwise Maxd would be justified in tossing your PAB out for breach of the terms.

KK
Yes, I read the PAB T&C 2 or 3 days ago, and I remember the part about posting in threads (before, during, after, or whatever it said). The PAB form was filled out almost 48 hours ago, and only had to be proofread when ClubWorld's Tom posted, and started discussing the case in this thread. If I lose the PAB because of that, I should at least be able to claim entrapment. :)
 
Yes, I read the PAB T&C 2 or 3 days ago, and I remember the part about posting in threads (before, during, after, or whatever it said). The PAB form was filled out almost 48 hours ago, and only had to be proofread when ClubWorld's Tom posted, and started discussing the case in this thread. If I lose the PAB because of that, I should at least be able to claim entrapment. :)

Keno... if Tom is not working with you on this situation via PM or emails, listen to KK... and listen to myself and others... if you are on the up and up, leave us a note here that you're doing the PAB, and please stop posting and PAB now! Have copies of emails ready, and your spreadsheet, etc.
 
Hi Keno,

I do understand your frustrations and that this situation is far from ideal.

I must re-iterate that this matter is still on-going and therefore it would be better to take it off the boards and into Private Message.

If you are unsatisfied with the outcome at least you can then PAB and gain Max’s official input or update this thread as you see fit.

Kind regards
Tom
 
Hi Keno,

I do understand your frustrations and that this situation is far from ideal.

I must re-iterate that this matter is still on-going and therefore it would be better to take it off the boards and into Private Message.

If you are unsatisfied with the outcome at least you can then PAB and gain Max’s official input or update this thread as you see fit.

Kind regards
Tom
PM sent.
 
my thanks

I would like to thank all subsribers in this thread...Its like a tv drama,cant wait for the next instalment.

good lck too all ....you are going to need it....Grif
 
Latest Update:

Hi everyone. My accounts with the Club World group have been unlocked and I have been able to withdraw. So far, I have received 3 smaller cashouts to MyPaylinQ and OKPay and there's a check for $2500 on the way.

I never got an email, or any other communication from them about the accounts being unlocked. I just happened to see some CW promo emails during the hurricane, when there was no power in the area. After power came back to my desktop (and also several days after sending Tom my last private message), I tried logging in and the accounts were all open!

Thank you all for your posts and advice. Without the forum's help, the result could have been very different. There's still the issue of Rushmore's $4700 in fraud charges, which I'll post about separately in a few minutes.
 
The $4700 that Rushmore erroneously charged has still not been resolved. I haven't received any other communication from them about whether they are refunding the transactions or if I should charge them back myself. ALL emails with Rushmore about this issue were posted earlier in the thread.

We are closing in on 120 days from the first fraudulent charge, which I understand is the time limit for some credit cards on initiating a chargeback. Since they have been non-responsive, and they are a (triple?) rogued casino, I'm probably not able to do a PAB with them. I think I should just go ahead and get the banks to issue the reversals from their side.

Thoughts?
 
The $4700 that Rushmore erroneously charged has still not been resolved. I haven't received any other communication from them about whether they are refunding the transactions or if I should charge them back myself. ALL emails with Rushmore about this issue were posted earlier in the thread.

We are closing in on 120 days from the first fraudulent charge, which I understand is the time limit for some credit cards on initiating a chargeback. Since they have been non-responsive, and they are a (triple?) rogued casino, I'm probably not able to do a PAB with them. I think I should just go ahead and get the banks to issue the reversals from their side.

Thoughts?

I'm sure others will chime in, but it may get you on the blacklist even though you are illegitimately in the right to get your money back. Maybe someone will suggest a better way of handling it.

Funny but I said, very early in this thread, that I figured it was rushmore and it wasn't an accident.
 

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