Resolved 32Red vs Joseph3 - expensive mistake

[paul7388]

See the thing that bothers me about this whole thread. If the OP had only deposited £20 and had got a £40 bonus instead of £20 and had cashed out say £100 I bet they would have said we made a mistake but we will honour the payout as it was our fault. The problem is that it was such a large amount that's made them not pay it. Been a funny few weeks on here tho as that's Club world, betat and now 32red been tore to pieces. Wonder who will be next?

 

[petro]

If the OP had only deposited £20 and had got a £40 bonus instead of £20 and had cashed out say £100 I bet they would have said we made a mistake but we will honour the payout as it was our fault.

That's right, what's true for the small is true for the big. It's also true vice versa.
But, isn't it also true that it is up to the casino if they wish to cut players some slack?

 

[maxd]

... he informed me to go down the same route that I have planned and to continue with the legal action.

Please don't misrepresent what I said. You said:

I was seriously about to proceed with the court action ... not sure how to proceed now....

I said "if you are prepared to take legal action against them then go for it". You've already said several times that that was what you intended to do, so do it. If you are simply bluffing in an attempt to get special attention you'll find that none of us is very amused.

The point is that once you say you're taking it to the courts our PAB process is ham-strung: the casino can't negotiate and we can't expect them to because (1) their lawyers will immediately advise them to STFU and (2) the legal process completely supercedes anything we might say or do. We're out of the picture the moment the legal process has been initiated.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I'm a bit confused about people saying I need to calm down and that I'm ranting etc. I have only stated the facts and asked for the members opinions on whether 32Red were acting fairly or not.

Like I said, I wasn't fully clued up about all this PAB thing I thought it was just a big forum.

There really isn't anything too complex about this, the only issue is if you think 32Red a playing fair here by not paying me my winnings. They have given their explicit reasons for not paying.

Anyway, I've apologized to Max and he has informed me to go down the same route that I have planned and to continue with the legal action. There seems to be a lot of interest in this, so I will let you guys know how it goes. I think transparency in the casino industry is important.

If you accepted that bonus "in good faith" believing it to be valid, you would probably win the case anyway. After all, it wasn't just you that failed to notice it was a mistake, even the CS rep failed to notice the mistake after applying the credit, and as an employee, they should know more than a customer when it comes to spotting mistakes.

It's the same as when a bank makes a mistake and credits extra funds to your account, and you spend them in your everyday living before they notice. There have been cases where the bank has tried to sue for the money back, and lost in court because they haven't been able to show that the customer "knowingly" spent the money, or otherwise "acted in bad faith" with the intent of preventing the bank from correcting the error.

What might make a difference is the chat log of when you contacted CS, and they credited the bonus. For example, if the rep says "I can credit you with £1000 for that deposit", and £2000 suddenly shows up, then the casino could argue that it's something you should have spotted and known might have been a mistake. If the rep stated "I can credit you £2000, and then does so", 32Red may as well get out the cheque book. This will look like you accepted the amount in good faith, and as an employee, the CS rep acts on behalf of the company, and has more or less sealed a binding contract.

There is almost no legal precedent with online casinos due to the rarity of cases going to a hearing, but the land casino cases where casinos have taken players to court have often ruled in favour of the player, even where the player knowingly took advantage of a mistake, or other lapse, made by the casino.

 

[dunover]

I'm a bit confused about people saying I need to calm down and that I'm ranting etc. I have only stated the facts and asked for the members opinions on whether 32Red were acting fairly or not.

Like I said, I wasn't fully clued up about all this PAB thing I thought it was just a big forum.

There really isn't anything too complex about this, the only issue is if you think 32Red a playing fair here by not paying me my winnings. They have given their explicit reasons for not paying.

Anyway, I've apologized to Max and he has informed me to go down the same route that I have planned and to continue with the legal action. There seems to be a lot of interest in this, so I will let you guys know how it goes. I think transparency in the casino industry is important.

I know I said I'd butt-out of this one but as you are the OP........

The moot point is not whether they are being 'fair' but whether they are acting within the parameters of their T&C's you signed-up to. Unfortunately they are. The same term can be found in all casinos. This definitely WILL be a massive factor in any legal action you undertake, and if you make a UKGC issue.
This is why I think you acted hastily - knowing how previous cases at the GC's have gone their bottom line is always the terms. I can see no case-in-law of this type so be prepared to risk a huge sum in your undertaking to expose 'an unfair term' with little chance of success. IMO Max'd have been kinder to punch you in the face than wave you down the road to this process.
Perhaps you really upset him....
32red are a reasonable bunch and after the initial brush-off I'm of the opinion you'd have got some kind of benefit from the more discreet PAB process which you eschewed while you were letting off steam earlier on, especially as they have tacitly acknowledged a little bit of error by offering the massive bonus amount back. Put it this way, it's a big EV- but you'd stand a much better chance with it IMO than a legal case.
Well, even now I sincerely hope you can reach some resolution before your legal quest proceeds. Think carefully mate. Do NOT let Rumpole up above sway your decision; get perspective and remember who can afford the best and specialist legal counsel......

 

[Matti]

I've read the thread and I'm confused. Is the OP allowed to make a PAB or not? If he is not could someone please tell me why.
I know that a PAB is not a legal procedure but for me it's important to know when I play accredited casinos, that I have the possibility.

Please note I'm not taking any side here since I haven't seen any reply from Mark.

 

[dunover]

I've read the thread and I'm confused. Is the OP allowed to make a PAB or not? If he is not could someone please tell me why.
I know that a PAB is not a legal procedure but for me it's important to know when I play accredited casinos, that I have the possibility.

Please note I'm not taking any side here since I haven't seen any reply from Mark.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/32red-vs-joseph3-expensive-mistake.63858/

Read my post here, as Max (PAB guy) has thanked it I believe you can obtain your answer there.

 

[maxd]

I've read the thread and I'm confused.

Don't be. Read post #82 and #103. If the OP is contemplating a PAB on this particular issue then I ask that he contacts Bryan and gets explicit permission to proceed.

 

[nikantw]

I've read the thread and I'm confused. Is the OP allowed to make a PAB or not? If he is not could someone please tell me why.

OMG, did you read this:

Please don't misrepresent what I said.
I said "if you are prepared to take legal action against them then go for it". You've already said several times that that was what you intended to do, so do it. If you are simply bluffing in an attempt to get special attention you'll find that none of us is very amused.

The point is that once you say you're taking it to the courts our PAB process is ham-strung: the casino can't negotiate and we can't expect them to because (1) their lawyers will immediately advise them to STFU and (2) the legal process completely supercedes anything we might say or do. We're out of the picture the moment the legal process has been initiated.

And you are confused?! After that?!

I believe the OP is smart, and his intentions are clear.

 

[Refilliates Casinos]

I might be way off here, but don't you think going to court could backfire as 32Red could effectively claim he breached their agreement by taking more than what was advertised (on offer)? Technically speaking - aren't both parties guilty of breaching the initial agreement in this case? I.e. the offer was 100% and he agreed to that when he deposited. When they gave (and he received) 200%, the deal was immediately void as it is not what both parties agreed to. No?

A 50% settlement would probably be the quickest and most fair way to resolve this amicably.

To the OP: personally, I would take the 25k and try and turn it into 50k You have nothing to lose (it is rather unlikely you will see a penny if you choose any other way to resolve this). Make sure you get the terms in writing (all of them) before commencing play.

Good luck and good night all!

 

[Joseph3]

Please don't misrepresent what I said. You said:


I said "if you are prepared to take legal action against them then go for it". You've already said several times that that was what you intended to do, so do it. If you are simply bluffing in an attempt to get special attention you'll find that none of us is very amused.

The point is that once you say you're taking it to the courts our PAB process is ham-strung: the casino can't negotiate and we can't expect them to because (1) their lawyers will immediately advise them to STFU and (2) the legal process completely supercedes anything we might say or do. We're out of the picture the moment the legal process has been initiated.

But I explained in my message to you that I haven't sent a Letter Before Action yet, I was just about to do it before coming onto this forum to try this approach.
You said you were "more or less in the same position" as 32Red, in that they are waiting for my papers to be served.

I'm a bit confused now.

 

[Matti]

Thank you dunover and MaxD for you're advise.

@nikantw: I'm glad that you apparently already know who is right and who is wrong.

 

[kadcox]

But I explained in my message to you that I haven't sent a Letter Before Action yet, I was just about to do it before coming onto this forum to try this approach.
You said you were "more or less in the same position" as 32Red, in that they are waiting for my papers to be served.

I'm a bit confused now.

File a suit against them and see if a newspaper is willing to listen to your story. Try news outlet as well. 32Red owes you...You risked more then you had to, 3000 X 30 compared to 2000 X 30. 32red stood a better chance of you busting out. If you would have lost. They would have been paid. But they didn't and should honor their mistake. If this was a few hundred dollars. I bet you 32Red would have paid and everyone would have patted them on the back and praised them. I don't think you are going to get help here. As with the CWC thread of $300. Find legal options and get your money. This is why there have to be regulations.

 

[Jasminebed]

Please forgive me given my track record

I don't have all the facts. I tried to have as many as I could, but I have a life, you all keep posting, the link to the bonus terms is UK residents only, yada yada yada.

I believe as much as we are responsible for our errors casinos need to be responsible for theirs. And the CS agents you employ are your agents, and entitled to do business on your behalf.

32Red's team is a shining example of good CS.

But good CS does not mean perfect or infallible, but it does mean they are your agents.

I have been over-bonused by 32Red support chat many many times. Sometimes they have fixed it when I pointed it out, sometimes I was told I could just have it if I was okay with it.

A 100% bonus on MG slots is not easily exploited, and a 200% bonus actually leaves the player less EV on 97% slots.

Since I joined a new casino (not 32Red group) just today, I noted the following term:

Casino XXXX reserves the right to correct any error in bonus points, casino credits, and/or prizes awarded. Winnings will not be affected but the players balance will be adjusted to reflect the correct amount when any error is detected.

I was contacted by 32Red support today when I was reading the terms and conditions for the SUB, and I had previously tried to access the link provided here for the high roller bonus, but is is UK only, so I can't see exactly what the OP agreed to.

The offer of reinstating balance is not "generous" if it come with a 30X WR and a $6.25 bet, That is what a player is entitled to under a terms violation.

If the OP is an advantage player, it might not net him $25K, but since he can hardly be accused of grinding given bet limits, it is better than nothing.

If he is not an AP, then he will be lucky to come out of that with his original $1000.

I do think the term I quoted from a non-accredited casino would be the most sensible and fair course to take. The OP's opening post indicated he thought that was fair enough. I do too.

 

[Balthazar]

To the OP: personally, I would take the 25k and try and turn it into 50k

750k wagering requirement at £6 a spin (max) is 125,000 spins. That's enough spins to get close to the TRTP of any slot. If the TRTP of slot XYZ is 95%, after 125,000 spins @ £6 you would end with a negative balance of ~ -£12,500 (or, in other words, you'd bust out long before you'd reach WR).

It's quite easy to calculate here: at 95% TRTP the slot keeps £5 per £100 wagered (on the long run). Since in this case you have to wager 7,500 times £100, you'd lose 7,500 x £5 for a loss of -£37,500. That's not good when your starting balance is £25k.

Bryan called the offer "fair" earlier in the thread but he probably didn't do the math.

 

[Casinomeister]

There seems to be some confusion and misinformation going on in this thread.

I criticized the OP for starting off this thread as a catalyst for mob action (which seems to be under way by a select few ). He also consciously left out a crucial piece of information - the part that 32Red had made an offer - this oversight in my opinion is suspect. But nonetheless, he explained that wasn't important since he turned the offer down. We have also explained that if he's serious about going to court with this, then fine, he can knock himself out with that. That's one less PAB Max needs to do. He also made a comment that he mistrusts the PAB service since this site is casino related. I'm assuming that he is not aware of the success rate of the PAB, but that's water under the bridge for me.

So in short, he is free to submit a complaint here via the PAB service and we will do what we can to come to a fair resolution.

 

[rshkrn]

There seems to be some confusion and misinformation going on in this thread.

I criticized the OP for starting off this thread as a catalyst for mob action (which seems to be under way by a select few ). He also consciously left out a crucial piece of information - the part that 32Red had made an offer - this oversight in my opinion is suspect. But nonetheless, he explained that wasn't important since he turned the offer down. We have also explained that if he's serious about going to court with this, then fine, he can knock himself out with that. That's one less PAB Max needs to do. He also made a comment that he mistrusts the PAB service since this site is casino related. I'm assuming that he is not aware of the success rate of the PAB, but that's water under the bridge for me.

So in short, he is free to submit a complaint here via the PAB service and we will do what we can to come to a fair resolution.

I'd say the fact that 32red made an offer may have actually led the OP to believe he's in a stronger position than originally thought and he could prolly arm-twist 32red to up the offer by starting this thread and threatening with a court case. Even if the OP goes to court (low chance....) the matter may still be settled outside eventually (high chance....) and the OP could end up with less than offered after removing all costs (high chance....)...

 

[Balthazar]

the fact that 32red made an offer may have actually led the OP to believe he's in a stronger position than originally thought

That offer not only prevented him from winning any money but prevented him from keeping any money. It was basically a f-you offer.

I guarantee you that if OP had acted civilized and came here to expose his issue instead of clearly looking for MOB action, and then Mark or anyone at 32Red would have countered with the same f-you offer, the whole board would have gotten behind OP.

Now 32Red won't even comment (because OP foolishly mentioned the court thing). That's yet another case on CM where the OP is his own worst enemy.

 

[chuchu59]

There seems to be some confusion and misinformation going on in this thread.

I criticized the OP for starting off this thread as a catalyst for mob action (which seems to be under way by a select few ). He also consciously left out a crucial piece of information - the part that 32Red had made an offer - this oversight in my opinion is suspect. But nonetheless, he explained that wasn't important since he turned the offer down. We have also explained that if he's serious about going to court with this, then fine, he can knock himself out with that. That's one less PAB Max needs to do. He also made a comment that he mistrusts the PAB service since this site is casino related. I'm assuming that he is not aware of the success rate of the PAB, but that's water under the bridge for me.

So in short, he is free to submit a complaint here via the PAB service and we will do what we can to come to a fair resolution.

I may have missed it. Can anyone enlighten me as to what 32RED offered the OP?

 

[Balthazar]

I may have missed it. Can anyone enlighten me as to what 32RED offered the OP?

Here:

They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.

 

[nikantw]

@nikantw: I'm glad that you apparently already know who is right and who is wrong.

No. I am just saying that I found this forum on a similar situation with the OP.
I won and the casino refused to pay.
After reading a few posts (it took less than 10 min) the correct course of action was crystal clear.
You read the PAB rules, you do the PAB.
Soon I had all my winnings paid.

Nothing confusing about that.

 

[Blathaon]

Since the OP have been given the go-ahead by CM to file a PAB i hope he does so.

I agree that it wasn't wise by the OP to come here guns blazing and threatening legal action, matters like this is always best dealt with in private.

Assuming that the OP's story is correct and the email he quoted from 32Red is genuine then this should never have been an issue in the first place, he should have been paid in full.

I can guarantee that had the deposit been for 100£ instead of 1000£ and he had received 200£ instead of 2000£ in error then nobody would take the casinos side, and in all likelihood he would have been paid without any issues.
The amount of money involved shouldn't matter but it seems like it does, i would very much like to hear 32Red's story of what happened. If the OP's story is correct then i find the decision not to pay disgusting.

The casino made an error and the OP played and won, pay the player and go over your routines for awarding bonuses. Also it's not like he was given free money, the bonus still comes with a WR.

This is just my thoughts on this matter based on the information available, if it turns out that the OP have left out some crucial piece of information then obviously my view might change.

 

[Jasminebed]

The OP's issue in no way prevented me from depositing today at 32Red.

I have my own mind, and I by no means think of myself as part of a mob. I do my best to be fair and balanced.

I expect my humble opinion not to matter one nun's hair to anyone that gets to make decisions.

But I remain hopeful it does. A very long time ago, before the internet and stuff, I said if three people who's opinion you respect tell you something it is worth giving serious consideration to.

There may be something in the OP's play that pushes the edge of what the casino wants from a player, but given the bet limits, he just got really lucky under those restraints.

Quite a number of years ago, when I was still playing blackjack in B&M's, a dealer over paid me. I noticed, and gave it back. I didn't have to, and they could not have taken it back even if they noticed after the chips were in front of me. Seemed like "luck" for the whole table changed, and I was some kind of karmic hero, but it could have gone south and I merely would have been an honest fool. Had I kept the overpaid chips, I can't possibly see later winnings being confiscated.

Often there is a middle ground. While I don't think the onus was on the player to correct the casino's mistake, even if they were aware of it, that mistake really just made it even harder to win, not easier. At best, the player started with 33% more than they should have total balance to game with, they deserve at minimum an offer of 66% of their winnings.

It was not deception or manipulation, but error on the part of a casino employee that give the the player a bigger pot to play with. Not even something that benefited the player given the bet limits of the sign up bonus.

 

[SpinUk]

Damn right. The Igaming rep who suggested the OP had nothing to lose by accepting their offer is omitting the fact that this would jeopordise any legal proceedings. I think the OP realises this.

But as people have said, I very much doubt this will go to court. The UKGC, like any judicious entity with new powers and territories will be looking to flex its muscles early on and I very much doubt 32red would be stupid enough to give them be any opportunity to do so with them over a paltry 25k.

I predict a settlement and non-disclosure agreement with the OP.

 

[rshkrn]

That offer not only prevented him from winning any money but prevented him from keeping any money. It was basically a f-you offer.

I guarantee you that if OP had acted civilized and came here to expose his issue instead of clearly looking for MOB action, and then Mark or anyone at 32Red would have countered with the same f-you offer, the whole board would have gotten behind OP.

Now 32Red won't even comment (because OP foolishly mentioned the court thing). That's yet another case on CM where the OP is his own worst enemy.

Is someone going to post the offer details or would that be against some rule if he decides to PAB?