Resolved 32Red vs Joseph3 - expensive mistake

[Tirilej]

No, they are NOT in trouble my friend! The matter was passed upstairs after the initial refusal to pay, and came back with the 25k-with-WR offer. A small admission of their part in the gaffe. I'm not sure the OP had the 25k-with-WR offer at the time he made the first post.

I don't know, but they had paid him back his original deposit already and offered him the 1000 bonus to try again.

I trust these guys. I know them but not the op, so I just hope it will be an ending that all are satisfied with.

Remember all that it's Friday and this will probably not be settled today.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Thanks for Pm to clarify

 

[vinylweatherman]

There's no hidden agenda with regards to me leaving this out (to what end?), the simple fact is the offer is far from generous so I didn't see the relevance, and I missed out their latest email by mistake in my post. They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.




Those bodies are funded by the casinos. How can I ask for an independent inquiry when there is a clear conflict of interest? Why else would I not want to go through them? They are not going to give any additional information to this case that I am afraid of. I'd much rather use an impartial judge, thanks.



Ok maybe that was a poor off the cuff remark. A better way of saying it would be; I'd like 32Red to see that their own players agree they are not advocating fair play with their position, and hopefully this will make them change their mind.

By ruling out these services, and going straight from the internal process to a court action, you have WEAKENED your case in court. Even if you win, by not pursuing these other avenues first, the judge could decide not to award costs in your favour as you turned down a cheaper alternative that may well have achieved a settlement.

The amount itself rules out the small claims process, so it would have to be a full case, with all the expense involved.

You should ask your solicitor what it would cost to pursue this case, and then factor in the possibility that costs are not awarded on top of any settlement, which would leave you with £25,000 - (your costs in pursuing the case).

You cannot rely on a default victory due to 32Red just not turning up. A casino intending to operate legally under the new rules would no have to stay away, so you can expect to see their legal team there. I am surprised your solicitor hasn't told you that you should make sure you have pursued mediation via eCogra or IBAS, and achieved "deadlock" here to before proceeding to court. All you have so far is a formal "letter of deadlock" from 32Red, which is actually the STARTING point for taking up the issue with IBAS or eCogra.

The proposed settlement (£25K back in the account with a large WR) is what 32Red offer those who have breached the rules during play, such as betting more than £6.25 Since it was THEY who made the mistake, I can understand why you would reject such a settlement, but you should at least have mentioned it.

We won't be seeing anyone from 32Red commenting about this in the thread due to the possibility of court action, and anything that is posted being used against them in court. For the same reason, the OP should "belt up" if they have decided that they are not prepared to give mediation a chance, and to proceed with court action.

Once a court summons has been issued, stepping back to mediation would no longer be an option. The most probable course would be a discussion between 32Red's legal team and your solicitor in order to explore the possibility of an "out of court settlement" prior to the case being heard.

 

[dunover]

By ruling out these services, and going straight from the internal process to a court action, you have WEAKENED your case in court. Even if you win, by not pursuing these other avenues first, the judge could decide not to award costs in your favour as you turned down a cheaper alternative that may well have achieved a settlement.

The amount itself rules out the small claims process, so it would have to be a full case, with all the expense involved.

You should ask your solicitor what it would cost to pursue this case, and then factor in the possibility that costs are not awarded on top of any settlement, which would leave you with £25,000 - (your costs in pursuing the case).

You cannot rely on a default victory due to 32Red just not turning up. A casino intending to operate legally under the new rules would no have to stay away, so you can expect to see their legal team there. I am surprised your solicitor hasn't told you that you should make sure you have pursued mediation via eCogra or IBAS, and achieved "deadlock" here to before proceeding to court. All you have so far is a formal "letter of deadlock" from 32Red, which is actually the STARTING point for taking up the issue with IBAS or eCogra.

The proposed settlement (£25K back in the account with a large WR) is what 32Red offer those who have breached the rules during play, such as betting more than £6.25 Since it was THEY who made the mistake, I can understand why you would reject such a settlement, but you should at least have mentioned it.

We won't be seeing anyone from 32Red commenting about this in the thread due to the possibility of court action, and anything that is posted being used against them in court. For the same reason, the OP should "belt up" if they have decided that they are not prepared to give mediation a chance, and to proceed with court action.

Once a court summons has been issued, stepping back to mediation would no longer be an option. The most probable course would be a discussion between 32Red's legal team and your solicitor in order to explore the possibility of an "out of court settlement" prior to the case being heard.

Which is why he should take this matter off the forum and do this privately in conjunction with the PAB process. The outcome could be made subject to a confidentiality agreement so neither the OP or 32red would be seen on here again. All Max would need to tell us is 'matter resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.'
If this thread goes on much longer we'll be attracting more Canadians, with 'systems' going by the name of Jon.....

 

[nikantw]

I think someone has watched too many Tv lawyers force something happen with "smart" trics (like blackmailing).

 

[catapultaudio]

oh god dont say that, I cant begin to imagine what johnny would have to say on this one after his bizarre responses to jemma nunns complaint a few weeks ago... seriously that guy is a straight out crank, if hes not a troll he needs serious help, either way, we are doing nobody any favours by humouring him on this forum.

 

[maxd]

Re the possibility of a PAB: ignoring for the moment the OP's diss of the PAB process -- one should educate oneself before speculating so publicly about something you obviously know little or nothing about -- I'd say that at this late stage the OP will have to seek and receive Bryan's explicit permission to proceed. Mentioning lawyers and courts and so forth usually puts any PAB, or the possibility thereof, on ice.

 

[spintee]

Every day I repeat my self, Another customer service agent f*king up yet again,

From what I have read than a 50/50 split cash, Yes the player should of double check when receive the bonus but so should of cs when giving out, we are not talking 20 quid here, You hear alot fron cs that they cannot help out about bonus ect but when they do you would of thought they knew the score

 

[catapultaudio]

Re the possibility of a PAB: ignoring for the moment the OP's diss of the PAB process -- one should educate oneself before speculating so publicly about something you obviously know little or nothing about -- I'd say that at this late stage the OP will have to seek and receive Bryan's explicit permission to proceed. Mentioning lawyers and courts and so forth usually puts any PAB, or the possibility thereof, on ice.

Why is this? I've not heard it said before. So the guy mentions lawyers/courts on the forum, and that then means you would not be willing to chase up a PAB for him? Or is there some consequences to the PAB process as a result of this 'mention' that I am not accounting for? I said previous I acknowledge the guys lack of tact, but refusal to take up this case for anything less than a cast iron solid reason would significantly dent my longstanding high opinion of the arbitration service offered here... it's your casino of the decade refusing a player the equivalent of the UK average annual wage as a result of their own mistake. The stakes are waaaay too high to just let this go, for EVERYONE now involved.

 

[homerbert]

CWC thread, this thread. This all make me think that best way is just stop gambling, really. No any protection, and in general, they do what they want. I am sad now.

 

[syntynyt]

just to assume if a PAB will be submitted and will end in player favor without 32red paying, they will be rogued? is one case enough to put on blacklist any accredited casino? newbie at this chapter so i feel the need to ask.

 

[kadcox]

Apparently this situation has already been discussed between Bryan and 32Red. Bryan said an offer was already sent to the OP. In which the OP rightfully refused. IMHO, if Bryan felt that 32Red was in the wrong. He could have easily asked that 32Red reconsider and pay the OP. But since this didn't happen. I would think the OP PAB will be lost. Maybe I'm wrong but if I was the OP I would look for other outside options. The courts sounds like a good ideal. I would add my legal fees on top of my 25k too.

 

[JGslots]

I just hope it gets resolved. I don't think dragging the respected name of 32red through the mud will do anyone any favours. We all love them and they are one if the best out there so hopefully it's sorted out the right way

 

[dunover]

Why is this? I've not heard it said before. So the guy mentions lawyers/courts on the forum, and that then means you would not be willing to chase up a PAB for him? Or is there some consequences to the PAB process as a result of this 'mention' that I am not accounting for? I said previous I acknowledge the guys lack of tact, but refusal to take up this case for anything less than a cast iron solid reason would significantly dent my longstanding high opinion of the arbitration service offered here... it's your casino of the decade refusing a player the equivalent of the UK average annual wage as a result of their own mistake. The stakes are waaaay too high to just let this go, for EVERYONE now involved.

Read the previous cases. What Max presumably means is that aside from pooh-poohing the PAB service offered, he has inferred he has already embarked on legal process via a solicitor, or is intending to. The PAB is a voluntary process of arbitration between a CM member and any casino which has signed up to and met the standards of accreditation, and therefore communicates with Max with the consent of the CM member initiating the PAB. The process follows no legal formalities, nor is the outcome legally binding. The process is voluntary and less formal.
Despite this it is a recognized level of complaint resolution which has retrieved hundreds of thousands on behalf of CM members without the need for lawyers and threats. If the OP had listened and recognized this fact he could have simply posted the nature of his beef, taken advice and PAB'd (then quit posting) without this thread turning into a bloodfest. This would not prejudice any rights he has under the UKGC regs. or in the courts unless he rejected a perfectly fair and reasonable outcome.
Unfortunately he has rubbished the process and is clearly assuming it is biased in favour of 32red and has (possibly) already initiated legal action. Therefore the whole matter has gone above the level at which Max and the PAB process can mediate.
The only chance of a PAB as you were informed by Max would be a grovelling apology to himself and Bryan if/when he calms down and the assurance that any legal stuff he has been threatening or conferring with a solicitor about will be binned while the PAB does its due process.
None of us know what is really said behind the scenes, it ain't our business. This definitely isn't a case of CM/PAB not helping the guy, but him not helping himself.

 

[funnymunny]

...He could have easily asked that 32Red reconsider and pay the OP. But since this didn't happen...

How do you know Bryan didn't do this?

If he did, then I'll apologise for doubting you, but there's a saying along the lines of "if you didn't hear it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen & just because you say something, it doesn't make it the truth."


I too wouldn't expect 32Red to reply directly within this thread (until all is resolved), but unfortunately we now seem to be in the realms of some people getting carried away with hearsay, conjecture & supposition (with a little touch of tin hat theory thrown in for good measure). This may be good for rousing a mob mentality, but doesn't help the situation of either player, Operator, or those that run this site.

 

[SpinUk]

In purely commercial terms, If I was intending to leave the UK market and half a chance to knock a UK player for 25k with little comeback I know what I would do.

 

[PaaskeDenmark]

In purely commercial terms, If I was intending to leave the UK market and half a chance to knock a UK player for 25k with little comeback I know what I would do.

32Red are getting UK License I can confirm that without giving out any source but can say its reliable and no not Mark

 

[JGslots]

In purely commercial terms, If I was intending to leave the UK market and half a chance to knock a UK player for 25k with little comeback I know what I would do.

I'm almost certain, but I think 32red has confirmed by Ed that it will still be operational within the UK.

 

[SpinUk]

I'm almost certain, but I think 32red has confirmed by Ed that it's will still be operational within the UK.

If this is the case then it is great news for the OP, who at least has half a chance of getting a relatively fair and lower cost hearing if he does want to proceed legally. But still, volunatrily arbitration of any form before court proceeding would help his case, even cosmetically.

 

[dusky]

My first question from reading this entire thread is if the player was so in the dark about the percentage of bonus that was going to be offered, why would they deposit exactly £1000?

Try having a bank pay you an extra £1000 and they will retrieve it VERY quickly.

 

[petro]

I have read all posts up to this point.
Sorry for the big post, I can understand if you want to skip it.

These are some points that I think are important.

No one disagrees that the bonus was given by accident.

Have to agree bigjohn, there is more to the story.

The reason given by bigjohn is not sufficient to support that.
You must have “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (call it what you want, it’s evidence) to suspect that OP isn’t telling the entire truth.
You can’t justify it by saying other people have lied in the past, that’s not grounds for suspicion.
Opinions (things without evidence) should be kept for music and the arts.

How did the CS rep not notice. New? or not many clients accept the high roller bonus?

Human error; it’s something common to us all and it must be tolerated to some degree because of this.

I'd suggest many lawyers would say you have a good case

Most likely the courts would have an automatic answer to this question. I would hope so, after a thousand years of hearing cases like this.

32Red show remorse
It is with deep regret to see that the subsequent withdrawal request for the above amount came from these invalid funds.

It’s appropriate for 32Red to be remorseful because they are to some degree responsible.
It is better to be remorseful than not.

32Red offer to refund the deposit
…we will refund your original deposit but nothing more.

32Red offer a generous bonus

They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.

If you play optimally, this bonus has an EV of $6250. But, I am not as certain as I can be about it.

And I certainly wouldn't be entitled to ask for my money back had I lost.

If the bonus is invalid it would invalidate the loss.
If I recall correctly there’s evidence on this forum of casinos refunding players who have lost on invalid bonuses/deposits.

If, on the other hand you are given a bonus which is within the normal parameters of the industry, then I would have no reason to believe it was an error.

That is irrelevant because there is more than enough evidence to establish that the bonus was given in error.


My advice is as follows:
Unless the magistrate is incompetent he or she will tell you: There isn't enough evidence to prove that the bonus wasn't an error. This makes your win invalid.
Consider taking the bonus with the 750k WR. I'm very sure it's EV+

Don't misunderstand me I'm not on 32Red's side. They have offended me too recently.

 

[dunover]

In purely commercial terms, If I was intending to leave the UK market and half a chance to knock a UK player for 25k with little comeback I know what I would do.

For pity's sake! 32red could pay this out to a hundred players a day if necessary. It's not a commercial decision and they are NOT leaving the UK market where they have a huge player base and even if they were, being an up-front outfit with high integrity they'd have told you by now. Please keep this all in context - they have used (thus far) a valid term to not pay a player in a case where clearly both sides take a bit of blame. No need for rumour-mongering and biased hypothesising. It's not a rogue we're discussing here, but casino of the decade.
Perhaps remember that my friend?

Anyway, I'm outta here now - all I can see is rolls of Bacofoil in the background.

P.S. The 'bonus' is EV-- the player would expect, at 96%, to lose 4% per turnover of 25k (£1000) x 30. He should bust out with 125k of WR left.

 

[SpinUk]

Every day I repeat my self, Another customer service agent f*king up yet again,

From what I have read than a 50/50 split cash, Yes the player should of double check when receive the bonus but so should of cs when giving out, we are not talking 20 quid here, You hear alot fron cs that they cannot help out about bonus ect but when they do you would of thought they knew the score

You know what, this would be the best decision for all parties. 32red take some responsibilty but save 12.5 grand while the OP doesnt have the hassle and cost of a legal case.

 

[SpinUk]

For pity's sake! 32red could pay this out to a hundred players a day if necessary. It's not a commercial decision and they are NOT leaving the UK market where they have a huge player base and even if they were, being an up-front outfit with high integrity they'd have told you by now. Please keep this all in context - they have used (thus far) a valid term to not pay a player in a case where clearly both sides take a bit of blame. No need for rumour-mongering and biased hypothesising. It's not a rogue we're discussing here, but casino of the decade.
Perhaps remember that my friend?

I've no doubt they could afford to pay this cash to him - (although a quarter of a million daily loss might be pushing it - they arnt exactly BP) but of course it is a commercial decision. Take away the financial side of it of course you would expect them to pay - they admitted their mistake already. If we were talking £50 do you think they would have come to the same conclusion. Integrity does have a firm place in any business, but thats what they are - a business. Its not a case of them "being great guys so they wouldnt do such a thing".

As I said, fairest would be to go halves and take it on the chin.

 

[Joseph3]

I'm a bit confused about people saying I need to calm down and that I'm ranting etc. I have only stated the facts and asked for the members opinions on whether 32Red were acting fairly or not.

Like I said, I wasn't fully clued up about all this PAB thing I thought it was just a big forum.

There really isn't anything too complex about this, the only issue is if you think 32Red a playing fair here by not paying me my winnings. They have given their explicit reasons for not paying.

Anyway, I've apologized to Max and he has informed me to go down the same route that I have planned and to continue with the legal action. There seems to be a lot of interest in this, so I will let you guys know how it goes. I think transparency in the casino industry is important.