beravek7 VS Fortune room

Beravek7

Dormant account
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Feb 27, 2014
Location
Prague
Fortune Room casino locked my account and confiscated my deposit and winnings - 1354 euro (150 euro deposit).
Here is an explanation for those actions by Wim (Fortune Lounge representative) :

"This is not about playing bets more than 30%. It is about you placing 20 bets of €10 on Beach Babes and then moving to Reel Gems playing 1934 bets at
€3.18 on average in order to meet your wagering requirements. This is regarded as irregular in terms of the folowing term I already sent you:

Placing high value bets with the single intention of increasing your balance, thereafter you substantially decrease your bet size, while
reasonably not decreasing your bankroll.

Regards

Wim"

I want to know if they can use the rule like that in order to confiscate my deposit and winnings. This rule is absolutely
non-specific. It does not say that one cannot decrease the bet after a big win. It says one cannot decrease it SUBSTANTIALLY.
But how much is SUBSTANTIALLY? I thought that in my case it could be something less than 1 euro. So I made 3.19 bets
on slots being sure that those bets are not small at all.
I also checked the bonus rules of several other casinos. I know BetAt casino is very respected at this place. And I can understand why.
They have the same rule for bonus but with one small and important addition:


"12.4.3 A user who wagers high value hands with the sole purpose of rapidly increasing bonus bankroll, then proceeds to drastically decrease
their bet value(less than half) without having reasonably decreased their bankroll will be deemed to employing unnatural and advantageous betting patterns. Such cases may enforce condition 12.5, but each case will be investigated and acted upon accordingly. We strongly
discourage this type of play. You have been warned. "

Pay attention to highlighted text. So If I played at Bet At casino I would know FOR SURE that the minimum bet I can make after 10 bet spins is 5 euro per spin.
Not less. Now how could I know about EXACT limits in case with Fortune room's rules? Does the word SUBSTABTIALLY give you exact information about that? Can this non-specific rule be applied in order to confiscate winnings and deposit?
 

maphesto

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Location
Sweden
"This is not about playing bets more than 30%. It is about you placing 20 bets of €10 on Beach Babes and then moving to Reel Gems playing 1934 bets at
€3.18 on average in order to meet your wagering requirements.

@Wim

Is this the truth? 3.18€ bets is not considered low in any meaning at all compared to 10€ bets. To me, the reduction from 10€ to 3.18€ is fair and if this is your explanation for confiscation the dep. and winnings you really have showed us that your T&C:s are FU-clauses.

So, Wim! Is this your final decision and the only reason for not paying the player?
 

KasinoKing

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"This is not about playing bets more than 30%. It is about you placing 20 bets of €10 on Beach Babes and then moving to Reel Gems playing 1934 bets at
€3.18 on average in order to meet your wagering requirements. This is regarded as irregular in terms of the folowing term I already sent you:

Placing high value bets with the single intention of increasing your balance, thereafter you substantially decrease your bet size, while
reasonably not decreasing your bankroll.
I can sort of see both sides of this argument.
It's obvious you were "Advantage Playing" this bonus, like may other people do.
But having said that, playing 20 €10 bets on Beach Babes is VERY high risk IMHO and meant you could have lost €150+ easily.
And I don't call €3.18 bets low-risk either!

I think that in this particular case, that the casino should pay up because the rule they are applying is to too vague.
Casino's MUST make up their minds:
If they do WANT advantage players to come in and potentially risk losing their whole deposit + bonus in a few minutes - have lax rules.
If they DON'T want advantage players - make the rules more specific to dis-allow this style of play (e.g. by low max bet limits).

As is stands the casino wins both ways - and that is just not fair. :(

KK
 

maphesto

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Location
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I want to know if they can use the rule like that in order to confiscate my deposit and winnings. This rule is absolutely
non-specific. It does not say that one cannot decrease the bet after a big win. It says one cannot decrease it SUBSTANTIALLY.
But how much is SUBSTANTIALLY?

From Bryan's standards for accredited casinos:

Operational Standards

Must not confiscate winnings for vague & unclear reasons, such as "irregular playing patterns" or "bonus abuse", without specific T&C violations.
Must not implement terms that can be construed as "unfair" towards the player.

You should have a clear case here! Maybe you should make a PAB right away:

Link Outdated / Removed

Please read carefully and do not post about it more. GL
 

dunover

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I must admit I'm surprised 10 Euro bets were allowed at all as most WR for a bonus specify a max of 5 or 6 Euros/Pounds. But the pattern of high-staking for 20 spins (presumably the inference here is that the OP did well and won from those 20 x 10 Euro plays) then slashing your stake by 2/3 does indeed sniff of the AP and all casinos do have some sort of provision to stop this in their terms.
The thing is that without pages and pages of examples it is hard for the terms to specify every permutation of stakes that can be described as AP, so the decisions tend to be made on a "We know it when we see it" basis which may lead to inconsistencies.

IMO the OP did AP the bonus by putting himself in an EV+ position by staking big early on and presumably winning. The crux of the matter is whether the terms were extensive enough to justify non-payment.

Placing high value bets with the single intention of increasing your balance, thereafter you substantially decrease your bet size, while reasonably not decreasing your bankroll.

It seems that this term does in fact cover the play pattern of the OP - dropping the stake by 70% after playing 10 Euros (and presumably increasing his/her balance) then playing 3 Euros on a 96% slot thus turning the bonus EV+ in 20 spins is pretty much what an AP/Bonus abuse term is supposed to cover.
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
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Location
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I must admit I'm surprised 10 Euro bets were allowed at all as most WR for a bonus specify a max of 5 or 6 Euros/Pounds. But the pattern of high-staking for 20 spins (presumably the inference here is that the OP did well and won from those 20 x 10 Euro plays) then slashing your stake by 2/3 does indeed sniff of the AP and all casinos do have some sort of provision to stop this in their terms.
The thing is that without pages and pages of examples it is hard for the terms to specify every permutation of stakes that can be described as AP, so the decisions tend to be made on a "We know it when we see it" basis which may lead to inconsistencies.

IMO the OP did AP the bonus by putting himself in an EV+ position by staking big early on and presumably winning. The crux of the matter is whether the terms were extensive enough to justify non-payment.

Placing high value bets with the single intention of increasing your balance, thereafter you substantially decrease your bet size, while reasonably not decreasing your bankroll.

It seems that this term does in fact cover the play pattern of the OP - dropping the stake by 70% after playing 10 Euros (and presumably increasing his/her balance) then playing 3 Euros on a 96% slot thus turning the bonus EV+ in 20 spins is pretty much what an AP/Bonus abuse term is supposed to cover.

So you have succeeded to translate the word "substantially" as "by 70%"? And what about "by 30%"? Or "by 50%" ? Is it substantially or not? Also, in this case there is no need in "pages and pages of examples". It is enough to do what Betat did with their rules: to specify exactly what can be done and what cannot. With just 3 words - "less than half".
 

maphesto

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Location
Sweden
Placing high value bets with the single intention of increasing your balance, thereafter you substantially decrease your bet size, while reasonably not decreasing your bankroll.

It seems that this term does in fact cover the play pattern of the OP - dropping the stake by 70% after playing 10 Euros

What has happened to the world? :rolleyes: Do you believe in that yourself?

I often play with 0.60 bets and 0.20 bets together with 0.40 bets. When I drop my bets from 0.60 to 0.20, do I then drop it substantially? To me, if that term covers op:s decrease in betsize something in this world has gone really wrong?
 

dunover

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So you have succeeded to translate the word "substantially" as "by 70%"? And what about "by 30%"? Or "by 50%" ? Is it substantially or not? Also, in this case there is no need in "pages and pages of examples". It is enough to do what Betat did with their rules: to specify exactly what can be done and what cannot. With just 3 words - "less than half".

Here we go more flaming. So if your employer slashed your wages by 70% next week, you'd not consider that 'substantial'?? I bloody would. 3 Euros is less than half of 10, or it was when I went to school. If that's the context of your remark.
 

Beravek7

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Location
Prague
Got this reply from Wim (representative):

"Hi

As I have already given you our reasons I will not be responding to the thread.

Regards

Wim"

What will you advise me guys? To use this pitch a bitch service? Is it worth the time?
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
Here we go more flaming. So if your employer slashed your wages by 70% next week, you'd not consider that 'substantial'?? I bloody would. 3 Euros is less than half of 10, or it was when I went to school. If that's the context of your remark.

If my employer slash my wage even by 5% i will consider it very substantial. So what is exact meaning of word substantially? By 5% or by 70% or by 95%? Isn't it too subjective?
 

rshkrn

Experienced Member
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Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
Asia
Definitely go for a PAB. IMO It's unfair for the casino to offer a bonus but also use their discretion what makes a significant bet difference so that they can confiscate any winnings from the bonus... LOL.
 

spoton

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Right behind you
Obviously the casino has to prove "12.4.3 A user who wagers high value hands with the sole purpose of rapidly increasing bonus bankroll". If the RTP on the game was 100% with zero variance I guess they can say that he explicitly did it to raise his bankroll, if not it's only gambling.
 

dunover

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What has happened to the world? :rolleyes: Do you believe in that yourself?

I often play with 0.60 bets and 0.20 bets together with 0.40 bets. When I drop my bets from 0.60 to 0.20, do I then drop it substantially? To me, if that term covers op:s decrease in betsize something in this world has gone really wrong?

No, you don't drop it substantially because the bet was not substantial (60p) in the first place. A 60p bet in relation to a 100/150 SUB is peanuts and cannot (unless extremely fortunate i.e. 4-reel Wild Desire territory) be used to quickly turn an EV- bonus into an EV+ bonus in a few spins, then dramatically reduce stake to play out the WR from that EV+ position.
You guys know exactly what I'm getting at here. 20 x 60p spins would have to get 500 - 1000 x stake in order to change the mechanics/maths of the bonus, whereas on a 10-euro spin you would only need say a 25-50x stake hit of which the odds are far more likely. So the 60p-20p analogy doesn't really cut it here does it??

The OP knew exactly what he was doing, and has been collared for it and thinks by posting here everybody will automatically back his claim at face value, without too much analysis.

So, yes I do 'believe that myself' and personally don't think a PAB will go anywhere once Max gets the whole story. If he/she wins the PAB then good luck to them, Wim will need to change the wording of the terms. But I think any experienced member here will in all honesty recognize the bonus abuse/AP pattern of play here, whether they think the term stinks or not.
 

slotplayer

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I don't really buy in to the advantage play bs. casinos want it both way, here is a thought redesign the f'n casinos to work with the bonus rules!

at the land casino there is no such thing, sometimes they give me bonus money and I'm free to put it all in and bet $20 a spin.
there are no bs rules or strings attached, a couple fo times I've win off it, more than the op did.
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
So who needs the fair terms and conditions? Just ask
dunover. The guy reads the other people's mind:


"The OP knew exactly what he was doing, and has been collared
for it and thinks by posting here everybody will
automatically back his claim at face value, without
too much analysis."

It makes me think about spanish inquisition when I read him.
Also I have a personal question for you, dunover- do you believe in God?
 

paul7388

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ok maybe playing £10 a spin is high but if its allowed then I don't see problem dropping his bet to £3 as its hardly 30p a spin, especially as he played a slot like beach babes which could easily have swallowed his money fast, if a casino can say that dropping your bet to a third of size is bonus abuse then basically they can refuse anyones payouts. So if I had a £100 bonus and had to wager 3k and played say immortal romance at £3 a spin and had a great run and ended up with £2000 and £1500 wagering left then went to Kathmandu and played 54p a spin to wager the £1500 it would be bonus abuse. If so that really is bad as most players if they had good wins would change the game and maybe lower stakes to finish wagering and get a nice withdrawal.
 

rshkrn

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No, you don't drop it substantially because the bet was not substantial (60p) in the first place. A 60p bet in relation to a 100/150 SUB is peanuts and cannot (unless extremely fortunate i.e. 4-reel Wild Desire territory) be used to quickly turn an EV- bonus into an EV+ bonus in a few spins, then dramatically reduce stake to play out the WR from that EV+ position.
You guys know exactly what I'm getting at here. 20 x 60p spins would have to get 500 - 1000 x stake in order to change the mechanics/maths of the bonus, whereas on a 10-euro spin you would only need say a 25-50x stake hit of which the odds are far more likely. So the 60p-20p analogy doesn't really cut it here does it??

The OP knew exactly what he was doing, and has been collared for it and thinks by posting here everybody will automatically back his claim at face value, without too much analysis.

So, yes I do 'believe that myself' and personally don't think a PAB will go anywhere once Max gets the whole story. If he/she wins the PAB then good luck to them, Wim will need to change the wording of the terms. But I think any experienced member here will in all honesty recognize the bonus abuse/AP pattern of play here, whether they think the term stinks or not.

A little confused here or maybe I'm looking at this differently, would appreciate if you can clarify.

Just putting OPs intentions aside for a moment, I still do not see why I cannot decide how to vary my bet sizing depending on the nature of slots. I can choose to bet 50 6$ a spin on HoHoHo and then 666 0.45$ bets on BDBA. Both ways I wager 300 each but am trying to balance my risk vs. potential max win......
 

dunover

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ok maybe playing £10 a spin is high but if its allowed then I don't see problem dropping his bet to £3 as its hardly 30p a spin, especially as he played a slot like beach babes which could easily have swallowed his money fast, if a casino can say that dropping your bet to a third of size is bonus abuse then basically they can refuse anyones payouts. So if I had a £100 bonus and had to wager 3k and played say immortal romance at £3 a spin and had a great run and ended up with £2000 and £1500 wagering left then went to Kathmandu and played 54p a spin to wager the £1500 it would be bonus abuse. If so that really is bad as most players if they had good wins would change the game and maybe lower stakes to finish wagering and get a nice withdrawal.

Not the same - you said 'great run' which implies you persistently played £3 a spin recycling your 100 bonus many (15) times at that stake. Now if you said "played the 100 at say 10 x £10 spins, had a 200x stake for £2000 hit then changed to 54p for the remaining 2900' that would be the scenario the terms refer to. Usually the terms state the intent of the bonus is to 'increase playtime' therefore in my case (never had a cash-out refused for AP/bonus abuse) I have always followed this ideal, and when I have cashed bonuses out it's always because I started low say 60p spins, built up a balance and then raised slowly or remained the same.
You only have to watch Chopley's videos, lo-rolling for playtime and when he gets to cash-out point has he ever told you he's been refused for 'abuse'??
 

dunover

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So who needs the fair terms and conditions? Just ask
dunover. The guy reads the other people's mind:


"The OP knew exactly what he was doing, and has been collared
for it and thinks by posting here everybody will
automatically back his claim at face value, without
too much analysis."

It makes me think about spanish inquisition when I read him.
Also I have a personal question for you, dunover- do you believe in God?

No, but he believes in me....:)
 

dunover

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A little confused here or maybe I'm looking at this differently, would appreciate if you can clarify.

Just putting OPs intentions aside for a moment, I still do not see why I cannot decide how to vary my bet sizing depending on the nature of slots. I can choose to bet 50 6$ a spin on HoHoHo and then 666 0.45$ bets on BDBA. Both ways I wager 300 each but am trying to balance my risk vs. potential max win......

I know what you are saying, but it's a combination of things. You are using an example of playing the other half of the kitty on an insanely HV slot, which no AP would do, and you don't say whether your $6 bets in your example yielded a large profit which changed the EV of the bonus in your favour BEFORE playing the 45p stakes. If you had made a small amount of $6 spins and made a large profit, even 45p on BDBA would ensure a cash-out of the bonus. I reiterate, judging by the stakes and slots the OP chose, he knew exactly what he was doing.
 

paul7388

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I know what you are saying dunover and I agree with some of your point and maybe the OP tried to abuse the bonus maybe he never, but as the casino terms are vague and they don't say how many spins, if I had started betting on any slot at say £5 a spin and won £3k on first spin and wagering was £3k then im sure id decrease my bets to about a £1 to wager and get a good withdrawal but wouldn't expect winnings refused as id substantially lowered bet, if casinos are going to do that then they have to be clearer on their terms or its open for them to refuse any payout
 

zap987

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It seems people are missing the fact that Reel Gems has the respin function, most likely he only respun one reel @3.18 hence the odd amount. This is EXTREMELY low variance, pretty much the same as betting red and black at the same time. I really doubt the casino would have had a problem if he started with big bets on Beach Babes, then continued to complete all the wagering even at 30% bets on the same slot.
 

dunover

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I know what you are saying dunover and I agree with some of your point and maybe the OP tried to abuse the bonus maybe he never, but as the casino terms are vague and they don't say how many spins, if I had started betting on any slot at say £5 a spin and won £3k on first spin and wagering was £3k then im sure id decrease my bets to about a £1 to wager and get a good withdrawal but wouldn't expect winnings refused as id substantially lowered bet, if casinos are going to do that then they have to be clearer on their terms or its open for them to refuse any payout

Again, a different scenario. The casino would see it for what it was, one very lucky hit that meant immediately you couldn't fail to cash the bonus out. You hit your exact WR in one spin. However, why change to £1 a spin? The slots pay 96%, change to another slot, remain on £5 a spin and you should still cash out 96% of that 3k on average the same as if you played £1 a spin. Use your nous. And it'll be a lot quicker - 5x quicker in fact.....:)
 

Casinomeister

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@ the OP

Since you obviously know what you are doing, you should have known that the best course of action would have been to submit a PAB right away - even before posting here.
Link Outdated / Removed

I would recommend doing this today. Thanks!
 

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