Bonus Complaint 21Grand Casino "Bonus Abuse"

[billy_g22]

My PAB went the same. They aren't responsive and won't give a reason why I've had my player account locked except for "bonus abuse" with no specifics. Multiple times I've been told an account manager would contact me but it doesn't happen.

Between supreme play and 21 grand the've withheld $1875 and it looks like I won't be seeing it. I've been trying since the beginning of September.

 

[De Beuker]

Well, I now received an email from maxd telling me that 21Grand did not even bother to discuss the issue with him. Thank you very much maxd for your effort...unfortunately it all doesn't have a good ending. For all players, I think this now issued warning should really be taken seriously, it is just rogue behaviour what they did to me and it is even more rogue to not even discuss it with maxd.

Sorry to hear this Fahrradfoh, I really had high hopes for you to receive your winnings, as you clearly won your money fair and square.

I hope 21G and Supreme Play end up where they belong, at the bottom of the roguepit, not just 'Not Recommended'.
Your winnings got confiscated based on a NON EXISTING term, not a hidden term, as 'hidden' clearly suggests that it could be found when searching carefully.

This is rogue behavior if ever I saw it!
Crooks!

 

[all4greed]

Wow, that ended badly. Guess they don't care much about their reputation.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Last time the Rival white labels went into the pit, it was the rep for 21Grand that was most visibly agrieved that "his" fine establishment was being tarred with the same brush as the others, now - not a peep, he won't even talk to Max. It looks like he was just manipulating all of us, trying to convince us that we were wrong in lumping all the Rival white labels together. Thanks to Max being persuaded, and removing them from the pit, players continued to play because, on the face of it, they were back to "good to go" status, with the CEO of Rival promising that if a white label went bust, Rival would pay the players.
This pair took advantage of this act of mercy, and decided to "screw players" by deliberately targeting them with " too good to be true" offers; taking the money from the losers, but looking for every excuse they could find to confiscate winnings, even to the extent of using the bullshit excuse that the Rival rating system failed to detect these "bonus abusers" until they had made loads of LOSING deposits and had their first win.

We KNOW that the Rival rating system does not JUST bonus ban winners, it CAN detect "bonus abuse" even when players have LOST.

It looks like they deliberately crippled the system to keep the deposits coming in from players they ALREADY KNEW were "bonus abusers", and whom they would NOT be paying once they had won.

This time, it will be a good deal HARDER for the Rival white labels to get out of the pit. It will look bad if Max trusts them AGAIN, and later has to put them in the pit a THIRD time after even MORE players get screwed.

 

[maxd]

Thanks to Max being persuaded ... It will look bad if Max trusts them AGAIN ...

Sorry, but those decisions are well out of my league. Bryan handles all that sort of thing.

 

[Redbush54]

There's a new guy now as David has moved up. You might try his replacement simon at bestpaypartners.net

 

[simonwhite]

There's a new guy now as David has moved up. You might try his replacement simon at bestpaypartners.net

Hi,

As Redbush54 stated, my name is Simon and I have just started at BestPay Partners as the Affiliate Director.

Thank you for bringing these issues to my attention, I will look into them and try and get them resloved as soon as possible.

In the meantime, if anyone else is experiencing issues, please get in touch with me at Simon at bestpaypartners.net so i can deal with them directly.

Thanks

Simon

 

[KasinoKing]

Hi,

As Redbush54 stated, my name is Simon and I have just started at BestPay Partners as the Affiliate Director.

Thank you for bringing these issues to my attention, I will look into them and try and get them resolved as soon as possible.

In the meantime, if anyone else is experiencing issues, please get in touch with me at Simon at bestpaypartners.net so i can deal with them directly.

Thanks

Simon

Hi Simon,

Glad to see you've joined the forum to address these issues after I pointed you to this thread yesterday
I hope you can do a better job than your predecessor.

I also hope you have read the whole thread, but I just in case, I want to make sure you saw this comment posted by Max above:

A bit of free advice: this is the wrong place to claim that things are being dealt with when they are not. Not to put too fine a point on this but if you're bullshitting me on these PABs -- claiming you are settling things with the players when no such thing is happening -- you will find that approach highly unsatisfactory when the truth comes out.

Welcome to the forum - and good luck!
KK

 

[billy_g22]

Email sent to Simon. Thanks very much whoever pointed him here and fingers crossed I can finally get some answers.

 

[fahrradfloh]

Hi Simon,

Glad to see you've joined the forum to address these issues after I pointed you to this thread yesterday

KK

Thank you very much KasinoKing for that!

 

[bowlingbob]

I havent deposited in here in a while but they are calling me so much from international numbers and its at all hours of the day when I am work and when I am asleep. They are so desperate for business that they are telling me lies on the phone. Telling me when after I complained about the slots being tight there and he told me if I make a deposit in the cashier he will give me a tip and tell me which games are hot and which ones are not. Now that is total bs if they know on the server side what machines are going to pay then its not random after all like I wanted to believe. Its been a nightmare with them I am about to change my number.

 

[maxd]

FYI I am trying to contact Simon regarding the outstanding and unresolved 21 Grand and SupremePlay issues (several PABs). We'll see what we see.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I havent deposited in here in a while but they are calling me so much from international numbers and its at all hours of the day when I am work and when I am asleep. They are so desperate for business that they are telling me lies on the phone. Telling me when after I complained about the slots being tight there and he told me if I make a deposit in the cashier he will give me a tip and tell me which games are hot and which ones are not. Now that is total bs if they know on the server side what machines are going to pay then its not random after all like I wanted to believe. Its been a nightmare with them I am about to change my number.

The more they phone, the LESS likely they are a safe place to play. It seems the agent will say anything they think you want to hear that might sway you into depositing. Their "tips" are probably nothing more than which games IN THE PAST have been "hot". This would offer NO guidance at all as to what to expect in the future.

Their phone tactics also seem to be based on wearing you down until you DO deposit, just to get the calls to stop. This is evidence of SEVERE cash problems at the casino, and shows how much they NEED more players to deposit. The way Rival in general have dealt with players is WHY they have found deposits have dried up, and why they have to try SO HARD to persuade players to start depositing again.

 

[BingoT]

Hey Max I have been talking to Simon for the past week via Email.
I told him about this & to contact you asap.
Lets see what takes place now.
Last Activity: Yesterday 01:11 PM Simon was seen
Did he contact you yet Max?
~T~

 

[maxd]

Did he contact you yet Max?

Yes. It seems he's busy getting up to speed and I haven't had a chance to get back to him yet.

 

[Nifty29]

The worst part of this is that the guy who couldn't sort it out last time has been promoted. Very reassuring!

Of course, some affiliates will tell you there is nothing to worry about....so I guess there is nothing to worry about!

After all, the Rival white labels are only in the 'Not Recommended' section so there is no need to be alarmed. It's not like they are in the 'Rogue' section .

I mean, even if a casino is in the Rogue Pit, the other casinos owned and operated by the same people should be just fine. There is no way those same rogue owners will try the same rogue tactics at another one of their casinos......nahhhhhh.

Sorry if it's a bit OT, but it is kinda relevant.

 

[GI Joe]

I was contcted by Simon a few days ago. He wanted Casino Traffic...

I told him he was on the CM list - he told me that he would return to me as soon as the casinos was removed from this list.

lets see where it ends!

Gi Joe

 

[Nifty29]

he told me that he would return to me as soon as the casinos was removed from this list.

Ummm.....I wouldn't go reserving a space for them GIJoe

Anyway, they get enough airtime from their existing solid gold affiliates

 

[billy_g22]

Simon had a casino player manager contact me regarding my issue.

They say I've had my account locked because I made 3 withdrawals in the past right at or near the %100 bonus threshold. (Though I've made a ton of deposits) The player manager was very nice and we had a pretty lengthy conversation.

In the end. I'm getting $500 of the original $1875. He said there is no way to prove I wasn't using a 3rd party software to know my bonus thresholds and I'm receiving some of the money because it was their fault for not stopping it sooner. He also said that originally he was told by his boss to give nothing but my deposits back. Which would have been only $50.

I'm happy to be receiving something...After 3 months $50 would have been a slap in the face. But I still feel I did nothing wrong and if they didn't want me to play with bonuses they should have just bonus banned me.

 

[takethemoney]

Simon had a casino player manager contact me regarding my issue.

They say I've had my account locked because I made 3 withdrawals in the past right at or near the %100 bonus threshold. (Though I've made a ton of deposits) The player manager was very nice and we had a pretty lengthy conversation.

In the end. I'm getting $500 of the original $1875. He said there is no way to prove I wasn't using a 3rd party software to know my bonus thresholds and I'm receiving some of the money because it was their fault for not stopping it sooner. He also said that originally he was told by his boss to give nothing but my deposits back. Which would have been only $50.

I'm happy to be receiving something...After 3 months $50 would have been a slap in the face. But I still feel I did nothing wrong and if they didn't want me to play with bonuses they should have just bonus banned me.

Sorry, but this is complete and utter bull shit on the casino's part, representative of a rogue casino.

 

[De Beuker]

Simon had a casino player manager contact me regarding my issue.

They say I've had my account locked because I made 3 withdrawals in the past right at or near the %100 bonus threshold. (Though I've made a ton of deposits) The player manager was very nice and we had a pretty lengthy conversation.

In the end. I'm getting $500 of the original $1875. He said there is no way to prove I wasn't using a 3rd party software to know my bonus thresholds and I'm receiving some of the money because it was their fault for not stopping it sooner. He also said that originally he was told by his boss to give nothing but my deposits back. Which would have been only $50.

I'm happy to be receiving something...After 3 months $50 would have been a slap in the face. But I still feel I did nothing wrong and if they didn't want me to play with bonuses they should have just bonus banned me.

Aah, so using a spreadsheet to keep track of your wagering is now also a reason to confiscate winnings?
(You better watch out KK!!)

And WR is WR, nowhere in the T&C's is written that you MUST play a certain percentage over the required WR.
If the manager does not like that, he can bonusban the player, or close his account, but can NEVER be a reason to confiscate winnings.
Thats as rogue as it gets imo.

Avoid these places like the plague.

 

[KasinoKing]

They say I've had my account locked because I made 3 withdrawals in the past right at or near the %100 bonus threshold. (Though I've made a ton of deposits) The player manager was very nice and we had a pretty lengthy conversation.

In the end. I'm getting $500 of the original $1875. He said there is no way to prove I wasn't using a 3rd party software to know my bonus thresholds and I'm receiving some of the money because it was their fault for not stopping it sooner. He also said that originally he was told by his boss to give nothing but my deposits back. Which would have been only $50

What?
He was very nice while he was robbing you?
Sounds like being mugged by a thug who says "please" and "thank you"

So much for Simon "putting right previous wrongs" - off to my rogue list they go.

KK

 

[Mousey]

3rd party software to know my bonus thresholds

sooooo.... they're psychic! .. I guess using a pencil and a piece of paper and your brain to track wagers would still get winnings confiscated...

My last statement on this idiocy... the same thing Bryan says, the same thing we all say... over and over and over... ad nauseum...

Unless a player is a proven fraud/crook (multiple accounts, using someone else's CC, etc.), if the player has complied w/the T&C and met stated WR, then... PAY THE PLAYER, THEN BAN HIM if you no longer want his action....

 

[takethemoney]

I guess this is one of those casinos that believe anything that will not allow them to vacuum all the money out of your wallet must be cheating on your part. Sick bastards!

 

[billy_g22]

I never said I agreed with the decision. Just that the rep was a nice guy. There is no way I would advise anyone to play at either of these casinos after this. It's been a long drawn out mess and in the end i lose out on $1400. Like I said before, I'm just done with this whole thing and really getting something was better than I expected after all the time it took.

It's pretty easy to cash out near the %100 threshold. All you have to do is check once in a while to see if the WR are met in the cashier...

 

[De Beuker]

I never said I agreed with the decision. Just that the rep was a nice guy. There is no way I would advise anyone to play at either of these casinos after this. It's been a long drawn out mess and in the end i lose out on $1400. Like I said before, I'm just done with this whole thing and really getting something was better than I expected after all the time it took.

It's pretty easy to cash out near the %100 threshold. All you have to do is check once in a while to see if the WR are met in the cashier...

Yep, or you can keep track of it through your loyalty points.
1 point for every 1.- wagered.
Not really rocketscience to calculate how many points you need to gather for 3000.- wagering is it?
At least I do not need 3rd party software for that, lol.

I'm still flabbergasted about that 3rd party software comment the rep made.
As you say, its THEIR OWN software that tells you you're good to go.

21GRAND: :machinegu

 

[BingoT]

Just that the rep was a nice guy

Always watch out for this old saying.
"Nice Guys Finish Last"

 

[KasinoKing]

It's pretty easy to cash out near the %100 threshold. All you have to do is check once in a while to see if the WR are met in the cashier...

It doesn't matter HOW you count your wagers; If the WR is say $3,000, then it's $3,000 - not $3,000 + some mystery amount you are supposed to guess!
If you met the WR to the exact penny they must still pay you - anything else is just rogue behavior.

Can you remind me - did you Pitch a Bitch about this or not?
Only MaxD said he's been getting a good response to most so far...

KK

 

[billy_g22]

Yes, I did PAB. Max said this PAB is closed "resolved." And advised me to take whatever deal I can get because it's probably the best I'm going to get. Just to be clear, I'm not complaining...Just sharing what happened

I fully agree about the WR...But at this point I'm pretty much at the mercy of the casino to pay me or not. With the way they handled all this and how long it took to get anything, $500 felt like a deal. I expected to get nothing.

The funny thing about this whole thing is $1400 of the money that was being withheld was made on a deposit I didn't claim a bonus. But they say they should have locked my accounts months ago.

 

[De Beuker]

Yes, I did PAB. Max said this PAB is closed "resolved." And advised me to take whatever deal I can get because it's probably the best I'm going to get. Just to be clear, I'm not complaining...Just sharing what happened

I fully agree about the WR...But at this point I'm pretty much at the mercy of the casino to pay me or not. With the way they handled all this and how long it took to get anything, $500 felt like a deal. I expected to get nothing.

The funny thing about this whole thing is $1400 of the money that was being withheld was made on a deposit I didn't claim a bonus. But they say they should have locked my accounts months ago.

WTF!!

Do I understand this right?
You won that money on a STRAIGHT deposit?!?
No bonus?
And then they confiscated your winnings because you cashed out too soon AFTER clearing the WR on a PREVIOUS deposit + bonus?

This is getting more ridiculous every minute..

 

[billy_g22]

WTF!!

Do I understand this right?
You won that money on a STRAIGHT deposit?!?
No bonus?
And then they confiscated your winnings because you cashed out too soon AFTER clearing the WR on a PREVIOUS deposit + bonus?

This is getting more ridiculous every minute..

They said I had 3 withdrawals from the past that were near the %100 WR. I had a withdrawal for $1400 from supreme play that was won off a $25 deposit no bonus. A day or two later I had a $475 withdrawal with 21 grand and I claimed a bonus. I'm pretty sure I cashed out near %100 WR on that one as well but I never knew there was an issue with it..

Honestly the way I feel is they closed my account because I was ahead in the casino by quite a bit and used the WR as an excuse to withhold some money because they were going to close my accounts anyway. Then they stalled everything until I felt like getting $500 was a gift. Which at this point...I do. I had counted the money as gone.

 

[fahrradfloh]

When bonus money is directly involved in play, Casinos might feel they gave you a gift and they don't like what you did with that gift and may decide not to pay you. Even if this in most cases isn't always right and fair (and sometimes really rogueish), it is at least a bit understandable.
However, if I got it right and the case is exactly like I understand, it is just pure theft of the worst kind.

Imagine you play in a land-based casino and bet $50 on a single number on Roulette. This number shows up, and you win $1750. Now the floorman comes along and states: "You came here three times last week, bet only $1 on Roulette, took our free drink we gave you and disappeared. You have abused our good faith and are a persona non grata. So unfortunately, we cannot pay your winnings, I'm really sorry".

Hey folks: This is the by far the worst thing I have every heard about a casino having done, I think even the Virtual Group with their foul tricks never did something like that. At least most rogue casinos seem to look for an excuse while stretching their T&C to the maximum, but this here???

I have heard the CIGA might not be a very strict regulation authority, but THIS is enough to cancel a casino license. And even if you took the $500, I really think this shouldn't end here. I know from my own experience that fighting for your win costs a lot of nerves and stress and time, but I think there's no other case where a player is 110% right and must get paid, and this will be the opinion of every sane human in the world.

 

[billy_g22]

What they said on their side is that my account should have been closed long ago and somehow slipped through the cracks.

Attaching a copy of an email I received on 9/14. This is the only thing i had received prior to this week on why my account was locked.

Hi,

Thanks for your email, after viewing your casino accounts we see that you have abused the bonus system for a long time, it is up to the casino to make this choice due to an increase in casino activity this went unknown for a long time and such as your account would have been frozen long before now.

We hope you understand this as the bonus system is a give from the casino and not for abuse.

We hope you understand.

Many thanks

Rachael
Customer Support


Honestly I wouldn't even know where to take this from here..

 

[maxd]

Honestly I wouldn't even know where to take this from here..

In your correspondence with me you said you were happy to get what you got and be done with it. Are you now saying this is not the case?

 

[KasinoKing]

What they said on their side is that my account should have been closed long ago and somehow slipped through the cracks.

So they are making YOU pay for THEIR mistake!

Honestly I wouldn't even know where to take this from here..

Ask Max nicely if he would consider re-opening your PAB.
You personally may not be too bothered about this, but we MUST send the message to this (and all casinos), that this type of theft is totally unacceptable!

KK

 

[billy_g22]

Max,

you yourself told me I was pretty much at the mercy of the casino and should take whatever I could get. Of course I'm much happier getting $500 than I am $50.

It was really nice actually getting some kind of contact and an explanation as well. But in no way do I think I shouldn't have been paid the full amount of my winnings. Do I feel like I am getting screwed in the deal? Sure...But what else can I do? I'm ready to have this done, but I also want people to know that what they did was very shady as well.

Sorry if my disappointment didn't show as much in the email I sent. But it was there. Maybe it was just overshadowed by the fact I was happy to be getting anything back

 

[vinylweatherman]

Oh great! The industry has sunk to a new low. Now winnings are being confiscated because you OBEYED the terms and conditions. They also trot out this excuse that simply knowing how much you have wagered is FRAUD. Did the person who thought this one up actually know the software, and that this information was simply there in the cashier all along. This is WORSE than the "Tradition fiasco", where a CLEARLY untrained member of staff was given UNSUPERVISED access to the "bridge", and steered the casino, and the whole Rival brand, right onto the rocks.

There is a difference between willingly accepting an offer, and being BULLIED into taking an IMPOSED OFFER. One might take the imposed offer, but this in no way means one is happy with it, rather that refusal to take it might mean it is withdrawn altogether, and for good.

THIS is the casino, remember, whos rep came on here with INDIGNATION that his fine establishment had been lumped together with those "other white labels" and dumped in the pit alongside them. It is clear that this "fine establishment" was the worst of the lot (so far).

Rival as a brand seem hell bent on corporate suicide. Perhaps the well run independents should consider "jumping ship" before they too end up on the rocks because of the reputation Rival is getting from this steady descent into the abyss of roguedom.

Since ALL white labels are essentially "owned and operated by Silverstone", we should consider that ALL white labels are likely to adopt similar policies once they see this is "OK with Silverstone" in this case.


PS, Virtual have ALREADY pulled this particular stunt - voiding an RJ progressive of around $6000 won from a deposit without a bonus based on PAST use of bonuses and free chips by a player.

 

[De Beuker]

These are the terms these crooks use to confiscate winnings.
They basically say they have the right to do whatever they want.
A FU clause if ever I saw one, damn..

Rival is indeed going rogue..

 

[Nifty29]

These are the terms these crooks use to confiscate winnings.
They basically say they have the right to do whatever they want.
A FU clause if ever I saw one, damn..

Rival is indeed going rogue..

Going?????

 

[De Beuker]

Going?????

Yes, you're right.
I'm sorry for defending them in the past.
But I've always believed they would do the right thing in the end and weed out the bad ones.
There was a Rival rep. over at AGD forum who promised to take care of the issues mentioned in this thread.
He obviously did not.
So thats what their promises are worth. Nothing.
And there is more going on, players are getting screwed all over atm.
There are several really sad stories on other forums too.
And there's Headors case at SOF.
And the 80K issue from TIV..

Its too much, and no action is taken by Rival, so I wont be playing there anymore.
I'll miss the games, but enough is enough.
They finally lost my trust.

 

[fahrradfloh]

Oh well, nothing but promises unfortunately. Seems no one looked into it and no one responded to Max. I guess the only way that remains for me would be the CIGA which doesn't seem to be too helpful

 

[KasinoKing]

I asked the affiliate rep about these outstanding PABs yesterday and much to my disappointment he basically just washed his hands of them & said it was down to the casino management, who were still considering these cases apparently... more than 6-weeks since this all kicked off.

Seems they don't give a toss what members here think of them.
Strange attitude IMO.

KK

 

[De Beuker]

I asked the affiliate rep about these outstanding PABs yesterday and much to my disappointment he basically just washed his hands of them & said it was down to the casino management, who were still considering these cases apparently... more than 6-weeks since this all kicked off.

Seems they don't give a toss what members here think of them.
Strange attitude IMO.

KK

Considering these cases?
Believe me, they are not considering anything.
They invoked their FU clause and thats it, and altough the player did not break any T&C's they wont pay.

They showed their true face, they are as rogue as it gets.
So stay away as far as possible in the future and move on..
Its sad, but what else can you do?

 

[simonwhite]

I asked the affiliate rep about these outstanding PABs yesterday and much to my disappointment he basically just washed his hands of them & said it was down to the casino management, who were still considering these cases apparently... more than 6-weeks since this all kicked off.

Seems they don't give a toss what members here think of them.
Strange attitude IMO.

KK

Come on KK, I never said I was washing my hands with them, what I said was that these issues need to be dealt with by our Player Manager. I am in charge of the affiliates and it’s important for me to get any issues resolved but I am not the one who will ultimately resolve them as I don’t deal with individual players.

That is the duty of the Player Managers and the Casino Management, I have just been alerting them to these issues and getting them to look into them.

We have just brought in a new player manager (which is why there have been further delays in rectifying this).

I have updated her on this post and any others and she will no doubt post on the forum shortly and be doing her best to resolve any and all outstanding issues as soon as possible.

 

[maxd]

... she will no doubt post on the forum shortly and be doing her best to resolve any and all outstanding issues as soon as possible.

You might mention to her that there are several PABs left outstanding. I look forward to hearing from her on these.

 

[simonwhite]

You might mention to her that there are several PABs left outstanding. I look forward to hearing from her on these.

Of course Maxd, she is just settling into the role and being brought up to speed on all her various duties.

I have updated her on all PAB's and she will deal with them as soon as she can and no doubt be in touch with you directly too.

 

[Nifty29]

*creaaaaaaaaaak*.........CLUMP!


Phew!

Just as well you shut those stable doors Simon!



IMO whether you had 'new managers taking over' or 'a disturbance in the time vortex' - it is immaterial. All of this should have been dealt with at the time and no amount of 'consideration' is going to make it better.

The only sensible way to resolve this is to pay the player - ban him or whatever you like - but from what we have seen here he did not break any rules. He made some wagers on slots and got very lucky...it could just as easily gone the other way. In other words, he gambled his money fair and square and refusing to pay him based on some lame 'abuse' nonsense is a disgrace. FFS how can you 'abuse' a bonus with 30WR or more on slots????

I used to play at Rival almost at the exclusion of anywhere else.

Now I wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire.

 

[fahrradfloh]

Just a quick update:
A player account manager from 21Grand contacted me some days ago and asked for an explanation from my perspective of what happened and the amount I think they owe me. I was busy over Christmas, so I just responded to him today, and will let you know here how things will develop.

 

[fahrradfloh]

Well, everything still in progress. Now after about 10 more e-mails the player account manager, Adam, who was very kind and responsive, is on his annual vacation and the other one doesn't respond to my e-mail yet. Guess I have to wait some more, but at least things seem to be taken care of somewhat.

 

[De Beuker]

Well, everything still in progress. Now after about 10 more e-mails the player account manager, Adam, who was very kind and responsive, is on his annual vacation and the other one doesn't respond to my e-mail yet. Guess I have to wait some more, but at least things seem to be taken care of somewhat.

Ah, so after 'looking into it' for 3 months they decided they need a 3 weeks holiday to think it over even more?
Lets just hope you receive your money then.. before Christmas 2012..