Bonus Complaint 21Grand Casino "Bonus Abuse"

fahrradfloh

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Location
Germany
Brief: 21Grand voided my winnings because I have bet only the minimum wagering required.

I deposited 200€ at 21Grand on 25. August, and took the welcome bonus (500€ non-withdrawable). After finishing the large wagering required one day later, I cashed out 901€. On 9. September I received an e-mail asking me to provide my passport and a utility bill, which I sent them the same day.
Until 20. September I didn't bother to ask as I already had read on CM about the current Rival issues.
However on 20. September after nearly a month I contacted live chat to ask about my withdrawal. The chat was in German, so I cannot post it here, but I will translate the most important parts:

(...)
I: I have requested a payout three weeks ago, and still have not been paid
Nathan: Ok. One moment. Let me check.
I: What's the problem? I have read some worrying news on Casinomeister.
Nathan: I have tried to contact you, but then was on vacation and didn't have time to try it again. Unfortunately, I cannot allow you to withdraw. You have abused the bonus system of our house.
I: Sorry?
Nathan: Unfortunately, we have noticed that you have bet the exactly the minimum amount required. We will void your winnings and, of course, refund your deposit.
I: Listen, you make the rules and I fulfilled them. So I won't accept this.
Nathan: But you have to.
I: On what basis do you do that?
Nathan: Your behaviour is comparable with card-counting in BJ. With which you have exploited the bonus system.
(...)
I: Please respond me. On which paragraph in your terms do you refer?
Nathan: 1.3.2. You acknowledge hereby that the Casino is not obliged to give you prior notice of its decision to refuse, deregister or exclude or suspend you, nor to furnish you with any reasons for such decision.
Nathan: 1.4.1.1. withhold payment to you of any contested funds whether such contested funds are deposits, refunds, bonuses, free monies, casino credits, payouts or the like; and/or
I: That means in plain english: You can do just what you would like to.
Nathan: No, but online casinos are very strict in regards of bonus abuse.
I: Oh, I see. Winning is abusing.
Nathan: No, we like it very much when customers win. But to come into the casino, bet with system and betting exactly to the cent the minimum wagering amount is something we don't like.
(...)
I: If you offer a bonus, there are rules. I have fulfilled them, and I think you should do so, too.
Nathan: Yes, that's right. But nevertheless another point is that one assumes system play in your case.
I: It is not about system or not system it is about that a) I have won and b) I have fulfilled the terms and conditions. Of course I look when I take a bonus, what is the best way to win with it. That's what it's all about when you play in a casino. And this surely is a system.
Nathan: As I said, the decision has been made.
(...)

Well, after the chat, 8 days ago I wrote an email to 21Grand management, but didn't get a response.
Do you think there's still a chance that I will see my winnings? I really feel cheated, as I didn't do anything wrong and I am sure the casino would have just kept my deposit should I have lost. A lose/lose situation for a player.
 
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Nate

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
Cyberspace
Im with ErgoPro,

Rogue Behaviour. Why say that the bonus must be wagered 25x and then remove winnings because it was wagered 25x and not 30x? :rolleyes:

I hope the Rep can assist you, If not, contact Max and enquire if you can PAB.

Nate
 

Balky

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Location
Croatia
In the moment the WR is fulfilled the player has the right to cash out regardless if he continued playing or not. If the casino thinks that the player abused the promotion they can ban him AFTER having paid the cashout. Withholding a withdrawal for such reasons is theft.

Balky
 

billy_g22

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Location
California
I'm actually having a similar problem with this casino and Supreme play. Have almost $2000 in total winnings being withheld for claiming too many bonuses.

I've contacted their rep and am waiting on a response before I post more details. Just figured I'd let you know you're not alone.
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
This is a 'secret' T&C in Rival's drawer... they pull it out whenever it suits them.

A Rival rep has previously posted in this forum (I can't find it now... I'm at work and I'm not in here LOL shhhh) that they like to see players play another -- I think he said -- 2 - 3% over the WR before withdrawing (we stand a great chance of not cashing out as much that way you see).

This is BULLSHIT... sorry... but there's no other word for it.

If WR is 25X, then it's 25X... if it's 25x + 3%... then SAY so in the T&C! Otherwise, the usual T&C and WR for the player mean NOTHING... except a lie.

Hidden terms trotted out when it suits the casino is rogue.

Pay the player and THEN, if they don't like the way s/he plays, bonus ban him or lock his account or whatever... sheesh... :rolleyes: (and people wonder why I don't play online anymore...)
 

fahrradfloh

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Location
Germany
Thanks all! It feels really good that at least other people think the same way I do. BTW, the bonus came with a 35x wagering on deposit and bonus, so >50xBonus on slots. If this wouldn't be enough...
 

De Beuker

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Location
Netherlands
Yes, these bonuses are non-cashable with 35x D+B rollover (slots and Keno), which makes them heavy EV- already.

It was one thing that they bonusbanned you after cashing out too soon, but now they also confiscate winnings based on that hidden term?!:eek:

I agree with the majority, this is rogue behavior and something I would have expected from Virtual group.
Please Rival, how low can you go?:(
 

chayton

aka LooHoo
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Location
Edmonton Canada
If WR is 25X, then it's 25X... if it's 25x + 3%... then SAY so in the T&C! Otherwise, the usual T&C and WR for the player mean NOTHING... except a lie.

Hidden terms trotted out when it suits the casino is rogue.

Pay the player and THEN, if they don't like the way s/he plays, bonus ban him or lock his account or whatever... sheesh... :rolleyes: (and people wonder why I don't play online anymore...)

:thumbsup: This sums up exactly what I was thinking. To the OP, contact Max and see if there's anything he can do - unfortunately most Rivals aren't accredited so maybe he can't help. But it definitely seems like you're in the right here and you should be paid. Good luck.
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
I just finished uninstalling the last Rival casinos that were on my computer. What they do and the way they operate is criminal, IMO. Close em down people! We have the money to spend or not to spend, hence we have the power. Casino attitudes are going to be their demise in the end and they will only need to look in the mirror to see who is to blame. They coulda had a beautiful thing but they took advantage of people and have gone too far. The fact that there is not ONE ACCREDITED RIVAL casino speaks volumes about CasinoMeister's judgement. It is right on the money!
 

bowlingbob

Full Member
Joined
May 1, 2008
Location
usa
I just finished uninstalling the last Rival casinos that were on my computer. What they do and the way they operate is criminal, IMO. Close em down people! We have the money to spend or not to spend, hence we have the power. Casino attitudes are going to be their demise in the end and they will only need to look in the mirror to see who is to blame. They coulda had a beautiful thing but they took advantage of people and have gone too far. The fact that there is not ONE ACCREDITED RIVAL casino speaks volumes about CasinoMeister's judgement. It is right on the money!

I am with you on that. I just uninstalled Rival as a result of reading this thread. I too take all their bonuses they offer me and after reading the OPs story makes me think if I finally win off one they will deny my winnings. It's not worth taking the chance . I just feel stupid enough for keep playing there with deposit after deposit and hardly any bonuses or winning. Plus these are the only casinos that repeatedly call me at home if I don't deposit for a few days.
 
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fahrradfloh

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Location
Germany
:thumbsup: This sums up exactly what I was thinking. To the OP, contact Max and see if there's anything he can do - unfortunately most Rivals aren't accredited so maybe he can't help. But it definitely seems like you're in the right here and you should be paid. Good luck.
Thanks! I have tried to contact their rep yesterday, and thought I'd wait again for a response from the rep but maybe you're right. I will just drop a note to Max now.
 

all4greed

Now we can do business.
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Location
Pacific NW
So on the flip side, if you stagger your wagers on slots and lose, you can request your deposit back?:rolleyes:

I also agree it's theft on the casino's part, not fraudulent player behavior. Wagering is wagering regardless of bet size.
 

De Beuker

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Location
Netherlands
Any news on this?

OP, have you got a response from the rep.?

If 21Grand sticks to their decision not to pay this player based only on this ridiculous hidden term, they should be thrown in the pit.
 

taysh075

Non-Gambler
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
New Zealand
Just noticed this thread today. My initial thoughts are WTF :eek: This is clearly rogue behaviour. It's at the point now with Rivals that either you wait weeks and weeks for withdrawals or they can arbitrarily decide to simply not pay you when they want. Depositing there seems like simply throwing your money away, you may as well throw it out the window, as it seems unlikely you really stand any chance of winning and making a withdrawal. How can these people look at themselves in the mirror in the morning :mad: If they don't have the money and means to run their businesses, do us all a favour and close down. I had already uninstalled the rival casino I had on my computer as it took a month to get a withdrawal (which I find unacceptable). This just reinforces that decision.
 

21grandcasino

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Location
earth
HI

I am from 21GC , I dont log in every day on here but I am now here seen this and will speak with the rep Nathan and accounts.
if you could plse all allow me to look into this

many thanks
C
 

slotcalla

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Location
California USA
Rival Blues here too!

I am having a withdrawal issue with Supreme Play. I am so disappointed in the customer service. Not responding to emails. I was in a car accident last week. Even still no response. I will be following up with them today AGAIN. Hopefully I can get some answers. I know I have gotten a lot of great info from this forum. Ive noticed that they never have a problem taking your money. They will let you spend spend and spend then IF you win maybe you will get paid. If they decide to. So I hope this works out for you. Let us know what happens and I will clue you guys in on my issue too.
 

bet4fun

Dormant account
webmeister
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Location
Mexico
I am having a withdrawal issue with Supreme Play. I am so disappointed in the customer service. Not responding to emails. I was in a car accident last week. Even still no response. I will be following up with them today AGAIN. Hopefully I can get some answers. I know I have gotten a lot of great info from this forum. Ive noticed that they never have a problem taking your money. They will let you spend spend and spend then IF you win maybe you will get paid. If they decide to. So I hope this works out for you. Let us know what happens and I will clue you guys in on my issue too.

I see issues like this all the time and I think its real important for people to do their homework, this site has some excellent information on rogue casinos but they cant always cover everything.

I have been playing online for a few years and actually webmaster a few sites promoting casinos, of course us webmasters face issues all the time with casinos that are not on the up and up.

I always tell people, check to see how long the casino has been in business, that tells a lot about a casino, I usually do a search in the whois database to see how long a domain has been registered example whois.sc/xcasino.com, this gives me a little insight. its not full proof but at least you can begin to narrow it down.

Once I find a good casino I tend to stick with it, sure there are some with higher payouts, but like anything else in life its to good to be true it usually is.

This industry is very cutthroat nowadays so before investing any When I first started playing online I would call customer support before I deposited any money, this can also give you an idea what the responsiveness form x casino will be like.
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
I see issues like this all the time and I think its real important for people to do their homework, this site has some excellent information on rogue casinos but they cant always cover everything.

I have been playing online for a few years and actually webmaster a few sites promoting casinos, of course us webmasters face issues all the time with casinos that are not on the up and up.

I always tell people, check to see how long the casino has been in business, that tells a lot about a casino, I usually do a search in the whois database to see how long a domain has been registered example whois.sc/xcasino.com, this gives me a little insight. its not full proof but at least you can begin to narrow it down.

Once I find a good casino I tend to stick with it, sure there are some with higher payouts, but like anything else in life its to good to be true it usually is.

This industry is very cutthroat nowadays so before investing any When I first started playing online I would call customer support before I deposited any money, this can also give you an idea what the responsiveness form x casino will be like.

How long has the Virtual group been in business? They are still doing it to people, year after year. Tenure has nothing to do with how a casino pays or treats it's customers. The internet is full of naive souls who, unfortunately, don't read places like this before they deposit. IMO, unscrupulous affiliates continue to promote them, no concern for what they are doing to the people that are referred. I hope you are not one of those promoting this group of thieves. If all the affiliate sites would get on the same page and stop taking their advertising, they might be able to help this group wither up and die.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
HI

I am from 21GC , I dont log in every day on here but I am now here seen this and will speak with the rep Nathan and accounts.
if you could plse all allow me to look into this

many thanks
C

If you are now voiding winnings even when players OBEY the rules, this is without a shadow of doubt ROGUE behaviour. Rival WERE in the habit of stopping further promotions for players who failed to play "in the spirit" of an offer, but this is a NEW LOW for Rival casinos. This has only made matters even worse than before, where many affiliates were thoroughly frustrated because they simply could not attract players BECAUSE of all the forum tales of woe. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing Virtual group were doing to players. They obeyed every rule, and then some hidden rule was dragged out to allow them to void winnings.

What about players who decide YOU have not "played fair", and then issue the infamous "chargeback" to void YOUR winnings. If it becomes established that casinos can do this, you will find players more willing and able to justify a chargeback when they feel they have NOT lost fairly, but have been "cheated" by the software.

Even if this "Nathan" got it wrong, YOU (the casino & his employer) are responsible, and should expect to be held to account.

I remember YOU bleating about how "unfair" it was when the Meister dumped ALL Rival "white label" casinos into the pit, arguing that each one should be judged on it's own merit, rather than being lumped together as "all Rival white label casinos". You won that argument, with help from the Rival CEO, yet tales like this make us think it was WRONG to remove Rival white label casinos from the pit.

The terms should be HONEST, to state 25x when you MEAN 30x (for example) before winnings will be judged "fair" is DISHONEST, and MISLEADS players into believing that your offer is more competitive than it really is. This practice would get you PROSECUTED by Trading Standards here in the UK, and the Advertising Standards Agency would REQUIRE that the offer be amended to reflect the TRUTH about the offer.

Far from an improvement, the situation for players is now WORSE than it was before with Rival powered casinos.

Until Rival casinos are HONEST with players about the terms AND EXCLUSIONS of the offers, players should consider them high risk, because they can play in a manner, and lose, and the casino keeps the money, but as soon as they WIN, they are told that their play was somehow "illegal".

As for that laughable "card counting" excuse, this is not even POSSIBLE with online Blackjack, and shows similar levels of ignorance to that demonstrated by Tradition when they tried to save their skin after that fiasco of switching their BJ to 1:1 payout for a BJ, but not changing the display. They tried to blame this on a TRAINEE having full, and obviously UNSUPERVISED access to such settings, which very few here believed since no properly run casino would EVER let unqualified staff in the SAME ROOM without full supervision, let alone allow them to tinker around with the settings.

If Rival have a "death wish", so be it - more tales like this should do it.

Forget about the software being great, I remember that HYPE software was considered great by players, but the rogue or incompetent behaviour of one casino after another using Hype software killed the brand completely.
 

all4greed

Now we can do business.
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Location
Pacific NW
The casino sets the terms, the player agrees and clicks to claim a promotion, wagers on allowed games, meets wagering requirements, and (hopefully) withdrawals.

Basically, that is a contract - both parties agreed on terms. Why does casino management think they can change terms after the fact?:what:

If this is the way you are going to run a business, I hope to hell you get screwed over by players.:thumbsup:
 
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