Wtf happened to Dead or Alive

[dionysus]

My assumption is that majority of the contributors to this thread would be of the opinion that he's not being entirely honest. I personally believe him simply because there is no overwhelming reason to be dishonest and no overwhelming reason to change the game.

But lets assume the head of products at netent cannot be trusted to tell the truth. What then should I think about the statements of someone saying they are a games producer on an internet forum?

Well, you judge by the person, no?
You wouldnt paint Bryan with the same brush as everyone that runs a forum would you?

 

[bebo67]

My assumption is that majority of the contributors to this thread would be of the opinion that he's not being entirely honest. I personally believe him simply because there is no overwhelming reason to be dishonest and no overwhelming reason to change the game.

But lets assume the head of products at netent cannot be trusted to tell the truth. What then should I think about the statements of someone saying they are a games producer on an internet forum?

I believe him. He is getting frustrated. That usually happens when someone tells the truth and people aren't seeing it. Im sure he knows more that he can't say though, which is adding to his frustration level.

 

[brianmon]

My assumption is that majority of the contributors to this thread would be of the opinion that he's not being entirely honest. I personally believe him simply because there is no overwhelming reason to be dishonest and no overwhelming reason to change the game.

But lets assume the head of products at netent cannot be trusted to tell the truth. What then should I think about the statements of someone saying they are a games producer on an internet forum?

Well put it this way...
Just say they HAD changed the maths, would they want that to be public knowledge??
Changing the maths isn't illegal or anything.

It's like when Cadburys changed some of their ingredients, and the ratios of certain ingredients.
They flatly denied it to the public, and then eventually had to admit to the changes

 

[SpinUk]

retract post

 

[trancemonkey]

I am very surprised you would be swayed to infer anything about a slot from a sample set of 1 million spins unless you thought it was a very basic slot.

The head of products for netent is on record as saying they didn't change the math (it was during an interview with the admin of this board). Do you think we can trust statements like that from someone so senior or should we take it with a pinch of salt?

Not really... I take the evidence that is given and make an educated guess. I don't know anything about the CEO statement but if that's true that sheds a different light on the issue. Still doesn't explain why a lot of casinos have suddenly started allowing it through...

I'll stay ambivalent for the moment until more evidence presents for either side

 

[trancemonkey]

So how does one explain the 50-70% on one game over the course of a couple of months, no variance?

How many games?

 

[trancemonkey]

My assumption is that majority of the contributors to this thread would be of the opinion that he's not being entirely honest. I personally believe him simply because there is no overwhelming reason to be dishonest and no overwhelming reason to change the game.

But lets assume the head of products at netent cannot be trusted to tell the truth. What then should I think about the statements of someone saying they are a games producer on an internet forum?

Here is the interview: -

https://www.casinomeister.com/gambling-news/interview-netents-cpo-simon-hammond/

CM: Personally, I enjoy some of the older MGS slots – mainly for nostalgia sake. NetEnt – I’m drawn to Aloha (naturally), and Koi Princess – just to name two. Which brings me to 20/20 hindsight: if you could have changed a game after its launch – what would it have been? What would you have changed?

Simon Hammon:

When a game is launched I always feel it can be dangerous to change it as player expectations can be impacted. We have done some HTML 5 upgrades recently which haven’t touched any of the maths, mechanics or largely the design to ensure we keep as close to the original flash version as possible. Changes here are only to ensure the longevity and reliability of the game as flash dies. There are always pros and cons to revisiting games post-launch, but I am more in favor of taking any lessons learned into future productions. A game that we originally looked at a potential of a release was Boom Brothers, which is a fantastic looking production with innovative features and functionality but did not do as well as expected. We were tempted to tweak some items but again the game in its current form still has a very loyal following who love that math flow so to do so would be unfair to them.

Let's be clear here.. they have re-released a lot of games in HTML5. It is entirely plausible that when he made this statement that they hadn't changed DOA.

The way they have implemented DOA in HTML5 is shocking. You get scatters above the reels that can obviously not be there and that's very shoddy programming... And this did NOT happen on the original game as far as I recall.

For the last and final time... I have never said they have changed it. The evidence I have seen (statistically) is by no means proof but it does point to the possibility.. which is all I've said.

If the guy at NetEnt came out and said they haven't changed it then I would believe him. Let me do some digging... I know someone high up at NetEnt now...

Hopefully I can put this argument to bed

 

[slotmaster]

Let's be clear here.. they have re-released a lot of games in HTML5. It is entirely plausible that when he made this statement that they hadn't changed DOA.

The way they have implemented DOA in HTML5 is shocking. You get scatters above the reels that can obviously not be there and that's very shoddy programming... And this did NOT happen on the original game as far as I recall.

For the last and final time... I have never said they have changed it. The evidence I have seen (statistically) is by no means proof but it does point to the possibility.. which is all I've said.

If the guy at NetEnt came out and said they haven't changed it then I would believe him. Let me do some digging... I know someone high up at NetEnt now...

Hopefully I can put this argument to bed

Tell Netent to allow Canadians to play again! .Please

 

[SpinUk]

Let's be clear here.. they have re-released a lot of games in HTML5. It is entirely plausible that when he made this statement that they hadn't changed DOA.

The way they have implemented DOA in HTML5 is shocking. You get scatters above the reels that can obviously not be there and that's very shoddy programming... And this did NOT happen on the original game as far as I recall.

For the last and final time... I have never said they have changed it. The evidence I have seen (statistically) is by no means proof but it does point to the possibility.. which is all I've said.

If the guy at NetEnt came out and said they haven't changed it then I would believe him. Let me do some digging... I know someone high up at NetEnt now...

Hopefully I can put this argument to bed

A million % this post.

He said SOME games. SOME. And then mentioned a non-entity title "Boom Brothers". Its true they wouldn't bother to change that one - no one plays it anyway. However, one of their leading products that was being blanket banned everywhere? That's a different matter entirely.

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok... just spoke to him. His words were "Lol they have not. We don't want to pay the certification fees". So I've heard it from the horses mouth. No change.

 

[slotter999]

Let's be clear here.. they have re-released a lot of games in HTML5. It is entirely plausible that when he made this statement that they hadn't changed DOA.

The way they have implemented DOA in HTML5 is shocking. You get scatters above the reels that can obviously not be there and that's very shoddy programming... And this did NOT happen on the original game as far as I recall.

For the last and final time... I have never said they have changed it. The evidence I have seen (statistically) is by no means proof but it does point to the possibility.. which is all I've said.

If the guy at NetEnt came out and said they haven't changed it then I would believe him. Let me do some digging... I know someone high up at NetEnt now...

Hopefully I can put this argument to bed

So an internet stranger talking to an unspecified "someone high up" at netent is all we need to put this to bed? I'm not convinced ;-)

 

[bebo67]

How many games?

I can safely say without exaggeration that 98% of that was on Gemix. 50-70% was @ Crazy Vegas. I hit 15 stars on a 5 dollar bet at VS back in August, and noticed the change in Octoberish on Gemix. Im in world 2036 at VS and world 62 at Crazy Vegas. I asked Dan what my RTP is on Gemix at VS, but never got an answer back. But its been absolutely brutal there too. If I wasn't so addicted to the game I would say screw it, plus the fact as you can see by what world I am in, I have put a lot of time and money in it.

 

[slotter999]

Ok... just spoke to him. His words were "Lol they have not. We don't want to pay the certification fees". So I've heard it from the horses mouth. No change.

I didn't see this before posting my other response. But as cynical as I sound I should say I do appreciate the personal interest and effort you put into these conversations. Thank you

 

[dionysus]

and to be fair, internet stranger is a bit of a stretch as many people met trance at the meister meet

just saying

 

[trancemonkey]

I didn't see this before posting my other response. But as cynical as I sound I should say I do appreciate the personal interest and effort you put into these conversations. Thank you

Well, i don't expect most people to take my word for it... but i'm now pretty certain it hasn't changed. So for me, i've been given enough proof. What the rest of you believe is up to you lot to decide But as they say on Dragon's Den on TV, i'm out

 

[bebo67]

Well, i don't expect most people to take my word for it... but i'm now pretty certain it hasn't changed. So for me, i've been given enough proof. What the rest of you believe is up to you lot to decide But as they say on Dragon's Den on TV, i'm out

Hey dont go before answering my response

 

[trancemonkey]

I can safely say without exaggeration that 98% of that was on Gemix. 50-70% was @ Crazy Vegas. I hit 15 stars on a 5 dollar bet at VS back in August, and noticed the change in Octoberish on Gemix. Im in world 2036 at VS and world 62 at Crazy Vegas. I asked Dan what my RTP is on Gemix at VS, but never got an answer back. But its been absolutely brutal there too. If I wasn't so addicted to the game I would say screw it, plus the fact as you can see by what world I am in, I have put a lot of time and money in it.

Well, i can't comment on the game (i haven't played it) too much, but i can guarantee you there is no setting less than the stated RTP. Are you referring to deposits vs withdrawals? Or just pure cash in / cash out (i.e game RTP) - because over a long period of time, there's no way you would get that kind of RTP, not even on some of the most volatile games around...

 

[bebo67]

Well, i can't comment on the game (i haven't played it) too much, but i can guarantee you there is no setting less than the stated RTP. Are you referring to deposits vs withdrawals? Or just pure cash in / cash out (i.e game RTP) - because over a long period of time, there's no way you would get that kind of RTP, not even on some of the most volatile games around...

Pure cash in and none out. Those numbers were given to me by the casino and double checked.

 

[goatwack]

I will say for a game that's not been patched/ altered/ amended, DOA plays remarkably different to its previous incarnation

 

[brianmon]

Well, i don't expect most people to take my word for it... but i'm now pretty certain it hasn't changed. So for me, i've been given enough proof. What the rest of you believe is up to you lot to decide But as they say on Dragon's Den on TV, i'm out

So after all this discusion, you suddenly remember you know someone at NetEnt who'll know the answer?
Contact him, and get a reply within 20 minutes, and on a Sunday....

 

[dionysus]

So after all this discusion, you suddenly remember you know someone at NetEnt who'll know the answer?
Contact him, and get a reply within 20 minutes, and on a Sunday....

I'm not declaring the veracity of his claim, but I could pull up a handful of owners, managers, industry workers etc on skype now and I'd well imagine trance has more contacts on hand.

 

[trancemonkey]

So after all this discusion, you suddenly remember you know someone at NetEnt who'll know the answer?
Contact him, and get a reply within 20 minutes, and on a Sunday....

He only recently went to NetEnt - and i mean in the last month. And yes i know him... and yes, i forgot that i could ask him.
And also yes, i totally see how suspicious that looks... i'll get my coat

 

[trancemonkey]

I'm not declaring the veracity of his claim, but I could pull up a handful of owners, managers, industry workers etc on skype now.

I messaged him on LinkedIn actually

 

[goatwack]

He only recently went to NetEnt - and i mean in the last month. And yes i know him... and yes, i forgot that i could ask him.
And also yes, i totally see how suspicious that looks... i'll get my coat

Can you ask what happened to Scarface whilst you're at it

 

[dionysus]

I messaged him on LinkedIn actually

I must get a handful of LinkedIn requests a day and I'm sure I've no clue who they are so I've stopped using it altogether

 

[SpinUk]

Didnt we agree that html5 would require re-certification anyway? So where is the saving exactly.

Well they got enough of our customers here, would be nice for an official input into it, as Dead or Alive has by far the largest comments about an html5 change for Netent.

I wont be holding my breathe on it.

Im guessing the slottracker figures are well over 1m now, and of course we have the blatheon 2m record to refer back to. If it hasn’t been changed, it really is truly remarkable the immense differance between the figures. Truly remarkable.

And we already agreed on an obvious commercial motive too.

Oh wait!

“Sample size isnt enough to prove anything - it hasnt changed”.

So thats alright then.

 

[slotter999]

Didnt we agree that html5 would require re-certification anyway? So where is the saving exactly.

Well they got enough of our customers here, would be nice for an official input into it, as Dead or Alive has by far the largest comments about an html5 change for Netent.

I wont be holding my breathe on it.

Im guessing the slottracker figures are well over 1m now, and of course we have the blatheon 2m record to refer back to. If it hasn’t been changed, it really is truly remarkable the immense differance between the figures. Truly remarkable.

And we already agreed on an obvious commercial motive too.

Oh wait!

“Sample size isnt enough to prove anything - it hasnt changed”.

So thats alright then.

Given you do not know what the reelbands are for dead or alive - what do you personally feel is a sufficient number of spins to draw definitive conclusions on the maths of the game?

 

[SpinUk]

Given you do not know what the reelbands are for dead or alive - what do you personally feel is a sufficient number of spins to draw definitive conclusions on the maths of the game?

Given (im assuming) your not a mathematician, tell me how its reasonable to assume a 300% deviation over 1000s of bonus rounds is within the realms of probability. Even 20% would raise eye brows.

But I guess it easier to assume big companies won’t mislead over such things (apart from Volkeswagan, Cadburies, Enron etc).

 

[trancemonkey]

Didnt we agree that html5 would require re-certification anyway? So where is the saving exactly.

Well they got enough of our customers here, would be nice for an official input into it, as Dead or Alive has by far the largest comments about an html5 change for Netent.

I wont be holding my breathe on it.

Im guessing the slottracker figures are well over 1m now, and of course we have the blatheon 2m record to refer back to. If it hasn’t been changed, it really is truly remarkable the immense differance between the figures. Truly remarkable.

And we already agreed on an obvious commercial motive too.

Oh wait!

“Sample size isnt enough to prove anything - it hasnt changed”.

So thats alright then.

The re-certification is a completely different process if you change the maths, as i've already explained.

You DO NOT NEED to change the maths when you change the front end game... you can change one without the other

 

[trancemonkey]

Can you ask what happened to Scarface whilst you're at it

Wasn't that just a big pile of poo

What happened with Scarface was the same as South Park - they lost the licence and therefore the game had to be removed.

 

[bebo67]

So after all this discusion, you suddenly remember you know someone at NetEnt who'll know the answer?
Contact him, and get a reply within 20 minutes, and on a Sunday....

Lol. Speed dial. We will never know.

 

[trancemonkey]

Lol. Speed dial. We will never know.

If you contact someone you know, and know quite well, do they not tend to get back to you in under 20 minutes?

 

[Gonzo]

hahaha nothing has changed and if it would in a ”legal” way... the. offcorse they will tell us the truth. Ofcorse they will admiy that they chabged their best games to be the worst on internet. I cant talk so much about other games. but Gonzos quest is changed 100%%
Nowdays its much harder to trigger the bonus it feels like u have to how do i say warm upp the slot.. nowdays u trigger 20frefall much often than before... U get 3 of the higesht symbols mor than before.. then the constant nearhit and the all the 3 sceaters wich not conect.. Then best of all and whats fucks your wallet... After 500spins and it trigger the bonus it payes u 10-20x bet following upp after that with 10deadspins... Because of this shit provider i lost my love for slots

 

[bebo67]

If you contact someone you know, and know quite well, do they not tend to get back to you in under 20 minutes?

Not Usually. My friends are busy people. Im curious though if this person you know is someone you know quite well and works for Netent, wouldnt you have called him first, and saved all the frustration of the posts?

 

[Gonzo]

Trance why not welcome your friend to join this forum

 

[trancemonkey]

Not Usually. My friends are busy people. Im curious though if this person you know is someone you know quite well and works for Netent, wouldnt you have called him first, and saved all the frustration of the posts?

As I said... he's an ex-colleague who only joined there a month ago so I didn't think of him straight away. Like I Say, you can believe me or not... no skin off my nose

 

[trancemonkey]

Trance why not welcome your friend to join this forum

I pointed him to it so you never know... although given the shit I get I would imagine he'd the more likely to shave his arse with a broken bottle

 

[Gonzo]

I pointed him to it so you never know... although given the shit I get I would imagine he'd the more likely to shave his arse with a broken bottle

hahahahahah

 

[Jono777]

Ok... just spoke to him. His words were "Lol they have not. We don't want to pay the certification fees". So I've heard it from the horses mouth. No change.

Where and when are you meeting him for the "brown envelope" exchange

I actually believe you and posting this as it was me who (re)started the ball rolling on this one (sorry! )

Have to ask tho, if you speak again, ask him what Netent's (re)selling point was and how they turned the casinos "fear" of this slot around?

 

[goatwack]

Where and when are you meeting him for the "brown envelope" exchange

I actually believe you and posting this as it was me who (re)started the ball rolling on this one (sorry! )

Have to ask tho, if you speak again, ask him what Netent's (re)selling point was and how they turned the casinos "fear" of this slot around?

I'll interject-

It's because they changed the maths

D'oh!

 

[SpinUk]

I'll interject-

It's because they changed the maths

D'oh!

I wonder what would be concluded if we put the 2 sets of results to a proper PHD maths forum, for their take on the deviation probability. To be honest, apart from the casinos doing a remarkable U turn on the new version (thanks Jono) the rest of this is semantics.

 

[trancemonkey]

Where and when are you meeting him for the "brown envelope" exchange

I actually believe you and posting this as it was me who (re)started the ball rolling on this one (sorry! )

Have to ask tho, if you speak again, ask him what Netent's (re)selling point was and how they turned the casinos "fear" of this slot around?

That is something I will definitely ask

 

[trancemonkey]

I wonder what would be concluded if we put the 2 sets of results to a proper PHD maths forum, for their take on the deviation probability. To be honest, apart from the casinos doing a remarkable U turn on the new version (thanks Jono) the rest of this is semantics.

Well they would laugh at you if you tried to prove statistically athat the frequency of something that happened every 15,000 games or more could be proven changed after only 1 million games.

 

[dionysus]

holy hannah- now its a point of contention how one friend reaches out to another?
99% of people I connect with is through FB even though I have their cell numbers for calls and text, their linkedin or skype or email.
Because I cant be arsed to constantly pick up my phone whilst on the pc, my phone is by and large a glorified e reader

 

[trancemonkey]

[QUOTE="SpinUk, post: 899263, member: ] Phone number question[/QUOTE]

I have his old work number which is no longer his... I'm sure I'll have his new one once he gets his company phone

 

[SpinUk]

Well they would laugh at you if you tried to prove statistically athat the frequency of something that happened every 15,000 games or more could be proven changed after only 1 million games.

Im establishing probability not proof, blatheons records are 2 million and i’ll request the slot tracker details.

Or alternativey we could go on your quickly recalled contact’s say at Netent instead...

 

[trancemonkey]

Im establishing probability not proof, blatheons records are 2 million and i’ll request the slot tracker details.

Or alternativey we could go on your quickly recalled contact’s say at Netent instead...

To be fair.. that's simply not a big enough pool of features to prove anything. But feel free... If I was you I probably wouldn't believe me either

 

[goatwack]

I believe it perfectly feasible to ascertain how a slot plays within a few hundred spins, maybe even less than that. Frequency of top symbols, hit rate, bonuses, the works.

Of course there will be deviations along the way, but not many. I just don't see how someone would need several billion spins to see that the game functions differently.

No one's saying worse or less- paying, just altered to even out the base game parallel to the bonus. It was never like this, of that I am certain

 

[SpinUk]

To be fair.. that's simply not a big enough pool of features to prove anything. But feel free... If I was you I probably wouldn't believe me either

Change of tune?:

“The DOA stats, and the fact it's now allowed at some casinos, means they have probably (not definitely) turned down the volatility.”

 

[dionysus]

I believe it perfectly feasible to ascertain how a slot plays within a few hundred spins, maybe even less than that. Frequency of top symbols, hit rate, bonuses, the works.

If I based Gem Rocks on my first session having hit 4000x I'd think it was a beaut of a game.
Having gone back to it another session, it's a goddamned money eater

Same as IR - I've hit whacks of 5X character and several bonus rounds in a sessions and then I've not hit one bloody bonus in 25 visits.
For me, 100 spins only tells me if I find the game interesting - and even then if I hit bonus.

Having just beta tested an upcoming game, my first impression of several hundred spins I rather enjoyed it.
The next session of several hundred spins I wouldnt put more than a tenner into it.