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[Wild Speculations] Ecogra dispute service closed?

Discussion in 'Casino Industry Discussion' started by siganto34, Nov 18, 2013.

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    Nov 18, 2013
  1. siganto34

    siganto34 Banned User: complaint fraud, Forum Rules violatio

    Occupation:
    a builder
    Location:
    Montijo
    Does Ecogra service still exist? Made a complaint with them more than a month ago.
    Received a confirmation email same day:

    Dear xxxxx,

    I appreciate the effort you have made to contact eCOGRA and explain your predicament. I will contact the customer service team at Golden Riviera to follow up on your query today.
    At this time I would like to ask that you adhere to our dispute mediation rule – “We ask that you do not place posts regarding the complaint on any forums nor should you seek assistance from another third party service while we work your case. Either of these will result in the immediate termination of our assistance.” Once your dispute has been resolved please feel free to post any comments you may have in connection with this query.
    Kind Regards,
    Tex
    --------------

    Now wait , wait and wait. Nothing happens. Wrote to them
    several times- no response.
     
  2. Nov 18, 2013
  3. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    I suggest you edit your post to hide the casino name. You don't want to jeopardize ecogra's involvement, and it says not to post to forums in meantime.
     
  4. Nov 18, 2013
  5. hakapuku

    hakapuku Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr

    Occupation:
    businessman
    Location:
    UA
    What can he jeopardize if Ecogra is not responding him for more than a month?
     
  6. Nov 18, 2013
  7. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    There's no reason to believe that eCOGRA has closed its doors. Something like that would be big news and there's nothing like that going around, afaik.

    If they haven't responded to you that might be because they're busy with your case and a whole lot of others. I know very well how that feels.

    A case being in process for a month may seen like a long time to the player but for us in the industry four weeks is barely a ripple on the waters, there may well be a whole lot more involved and it could go on for some time. I've had some cases on the books for as much as two years before they are properly resolved. Sure, that sucks, but it is what it is.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Nov 18, 2013
  9. hakapuku

    hakapuku Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr

    Occupation:
    businessman
    Location:
    UA
    But they could at least reply to OP's emails.
     
  10. Nov 18, 2013
  11. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    We don't know the situation any more than what the OP has told us. Maybe he's a pest. Maybe he threatened them or was abusive. Maybe they're just too damned busy. Maybe he's full of it and they're done with him. Could be anything, no? Best not to jump to conclusions. And never assume anything. ;)

    As it happens I understand that eCOGRA has recently responded to OP in some detail. It's probably not what he wanted to hear but them's the breaks.
     
    2 people like this.
  12. Nov 25, 2013
  13. siganto34

    siganto34 Banned User: complaint fraud, Forum Rules violatio

    Occupation:
    a builder
    Location:
    Montijo

    Maxd, I don't understand why do you say all that? I am a pest? I threaten and abused somebody? May be, may be? May be I am the one who killed JFK? My story is exactly as I told it. Got problems with a casino. Made a complaint with Ecogra. Got confirmation that my case is dealt with. Then total silence for a month and a half. Numerous emails sent by me- no single reply. That is why I think Ecogra is not functioning anymore.
     
  14. Nov 25, 2013
  15. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    He said MAYBE.

    :rolleyes:
     
  16. Nov 25, 2013
  17. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Indeed. What I presented was a random list of possible explanations. I could as easily have said that aliens might have invaded eCOGRA and the staff were unavailable because they were being subjected to rude and unusual experiments. Would you then have said that I believed in alien abductions? If so you'd be woefully missing the point.

    Maybe the attempt at humour got lost in translation but the point is that there can be any number of reasons why someone does not or chooses not to respond to emails. Saying "well at least they could respond" expresses a number of groundless assumptions about a process that most of us have very little insight into. And you know what they say about assumptions: "don't assume because it makes an ass out of you and me". Okay, that's a stupid and annoying expression but the point is that assuming things about something that you can't possibly know anything about is unwise, at best.

    For example, most of my job here at CM is sending and receiving emails. It is not unusual that someone will email me and I will choose not to repond. Sometimes it's because I'm busy gathering what I need in order to respond in full. Sometimes it's because I've already responded at length and don't care to repeat myself over and over. Sometimes it's because I've already told the person that I've said all I'm going to say and I've moved on to other things. Sometimes it's because they have a habit of being a PITA and I don't care to waste more time on trying to them happy.

    So, you see there are many reasons why I might choose not to respond to an email. Sure you could still say "well at least you could respond" to which I'd say "you do my job and then tell me how you can spend 6-8 hours a day working on PAB cases and then 6-8 hours a day sleeping plus 6-8 hours a day having a life and then some number of hours responding to the many emails that come in every day that need responding to and then there's all the emails that don't really need a response but it might be nice if you could". The point is that you respond to the high priority and necessary stuff and you do the courtesy emails when you can. Them's the breaks. Give me another 8 or 10 hours in the day and things might be different. Until then it is what it is. I suspect the same is true for the folks at eCOGRA, but I'm only guessing.

    As to the OP's particular case I know for a fact that eCOGRA have looked into and responded to his case in some detail. I also know that the nature of their response is unlikely to please the OP. So the OP comes here and tries to fling poo at eCOGRA? That's called "a personal agenda" and our Posting Rules have very specific restrictions on such things.

    PS. Thread title amended to better reflect the true nature of the content therein.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  18. Nov 25, 2013
  19. siganto34

    siganto34 Banned User: complaint fraud, Forum Rules violatio

    Occupation:
    a builder
    Location:
    Montijo
    Now that is very very strange! I never received any email from ECOGRA regarding the resolution of my case. And at the same time you, Maxd, know that I did receive it. And you insist on this and you call me a liar. What an absurd situation. So I repeat: I NEVER RECEIVED ANY EMAIL FROM ECOGRA since 15.10 when
    they sent me an email confirming the receipt of my complaint.

    Here are a couple of my last emails to them:

    12 of november: "Hello! I have sent you my complanit one month ago. Why you don't reply me since?
    Please, update me "

    18 of November: "Hello! Do you have any update for me?"

    Is it impossible to understand from these email that I did not get any information from them?


    So may I ask you, Maxd, if you are in so close contacts with Ecogra that they discuss my case with you (even without any permission given to them by me)- then ,may be ,you could ask them to resend what they have sent to me and what I have never received? May be that is a better option than calling me a liar? And it seems that this is the only option left because they totally ignore my emails.
     
  20. Nov 25, 2013
  21. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    You came HERE to complain about THEM so it's totally fair game for us to go to THEM to ask about YOU and your case. They gave us a general description of the situation which answered the questions here sufficiently for me to post as I did.

    If you don't want people looking into your business then keep your business to yourself. If you post about your business on a forum such as ours then you can assume people will start asking questions and seeking answers.

    Unless of course you really have no interest in having the "questions" you've asked answered at all, you'd rather just bitch and complain and -- as previously mentioned -- fling poo. Well then, that gets us into the realm of you being a troll and, again, the forum Posting Rules have very specific things to say on that subject too.

    That said I will mention to them that you claim to have not received their response regarding your case. I'm sure they'll be happy to resend that to you. If however it turns out that you are full of BS and have in fact received their response then it will be my grave and unpleasant duty to kick your ass to the curb.
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Nov 25, 2013
  23. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    In case this is a wild case of misunderstanding I have a proposal: file a Pitch-A-Bitch (PAB) regarding your case and we'll look into it in detail for you. Of course this does grant us access to the details of your case so if there's anything you'd rather not have us looking into this may not be the best course of action for you.

    However, if you decide against the PAB route I'd have to caution you against further posts regarding eCOGRA's supposed failings. The bottom line is we know that they have looked into your case and responded to you in detail. You claim this is not true which can only mean that either you are lying, they are lying or there's something wrong with your email. In either case this should be looked into since you've chosen our site to complain about them. If that is not going to be an option -- which is to say you decline to file a PAB -- then we're at a deadlock here and as such further comments about what eCOGRA has or has not done for you are not appropriate.

    Links to the PAB process are in my signature. I heartily encourage you to proceed ASAP, beginning with the FAQ.
     
  24. Nov 25, 2013
  25. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    There are things in this thread I just can't understand so I feel I better ask if anyone else are wondering the same.

    What could the OP gain by asking about Ecogra here? He didn't really post a complain as I see it. He was just asking a question because he was worried and didn't know where to turn. At least that's how I read it.

    Also I don't understand how you Max new who he was so that you could ask them about his case.

    I hope it's valid questions. Sometimes I don't understand no matter how much it gets explained. I blame the strange language of yours:oops:
     
  26. Nov 25, 2013
  27. siganto34

    siganto34 Banned User: complaint fraud, Forum Rules violatio

    Occupation:
    a builder
    Location:
    Montijo
    So if they tell you that they have sent the response- you will ban me on this website? That would be weird. When I say that I did not receive anything from ECOGRA - does it mean that I want to spoil their reputation? I only want to get a response from them- not more and not less.
    And, by the way, could you be more polite when talking to somebody you don't even know personally? I mean all that "kick your ass" bs.
    And regarding your proposal- would not it be easier just to send me their reply? Or they send it to me again or they send it through you, for example.
     
  28. Nov 25, 2013
  29. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Questions are good, no problem there.

    To begin, we asked eCOGRA about the OP because of his posts here. They knew the case and were thus able to comment.

    What would the OP have to gain? If the OP is a fraudster, of simply a pissed-off player, then they could be trying to pressure eCOGRA. (good luck with that!) Or, as I've said, they could be simply trying to bad-mouth eCOGRA by posting (non)questions like "do they still exist" etc.

    The point is that if the OP were really "asking questions" then the questions have been answered and they would or should be satisfied. Since that's obviously not the case then what are they after? That's where the speculations over motive come into this.

    From what we hear from eCOGRA there is a hell of a lot more to this case than the OP has divulged here. So much so that a PAB is very much called for, IMO. See my previous post for more on that.

    If they have proof that you received their response then there's a very good chance that you have been lying and yes, that probably would get you banned.

    I'd say your posts here have been aiming to accomplish a lot more than that but let's assume for the moment that what you say is true. No problem, I've alerted them that you apparently have not heard from them and they will almost certainly try to contact you again. Assuming that works then "mission accomplished", no?

    If you come out of this as clean as you pretend to be then I will make my apologies. So far everything I've seen and know tells me you are not what you claim and that you are abusing your membership here to serve your own ends. Of course I may be wrong but I've been in this business a long time and have earned the right to trust my instincts, to a point. Instincts or no one should never be too hasty.

    Easier for whom? Without a PAB on the table we don't have your permission to ask for things like emails and such, doing so at this stage would be inappropriate. Besides which how would that solve anything? As I've said, either you are lying or they are lying or you have serious email issues. Us becoming your replacement email service doesn't address any of that, certainly not to my satisfaction.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
    2 people like this.
  30. Nov 25, 2013
  31. skiny

    skiny Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas

    Occupation:
    Doing everyone else's job.
    Location:
    Canada
    The OP says he received a confirmation email around a month ago and then two weeks ago he emailed for an update and didn't receive an reply.

    What changed? His spam filter? His email address?

    I'm pretty sure if eCogra came to a decision they would have no reason to hide it from him. That would be defeating the purpose of doing an investigation. Something still doesn't seem to add up.

    Either Max is talking to eCogra about a completely different person or somewhere in about a 2 week span after the complaint was made something stopped allowing him to receive emails that he was clearly able to receive before the investigation started. (Both of these actually sound a little strange to me.)

    But at the same time, if the OP did receive the results from eCogra, what could possibly be gained by simply saying he didn't receive the information? That's all the original post said. Surely he doesn't think that saying he doesn't have the information will change the result.

    It's impossible to prove someone received an email because spam filters can delete emails without you even knowing what they were. I would suggest resending the information and once the OP has confirmed he has it, case closed.

    It might be accompanied with a suggestion that in the future if you're not receiving emails that you're expecting from a reputable source you might want to consider a more mundane reason. If I send my boss an email and don't receive a reply, I don't assume he's quit, dead or fired.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Nov 26, 2013
  33. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    I have it from two independant sources now that the OP is a known advantage player, works with a group of others, and has been booted from at least two well-known casino groups for this activity.

    Everyone knows, or should know, our position on advantage players: we see no reason to condemn them UNLESS the Terms specifically prohibit their kind of activity. That has been precisely the case with the OP at both of the fore-mentioned casino groups. In other words the OP has broken the Terms and suffered the consequences. Since this has been an organised and repeated activity I seriously doubt that any of the fallout from it is news to the OP.

    I suggest that in future the OP might well assume that if he continues with such activity and subsequently suffers at the hands of other casinos that the reasons should be obvious: many casinos do not appreciate advantage play and you'll get brusk treatment from them if you so indulge.

    As to the wayward email it seems that eCOGRA has read the OP's request and has passed their response to us to forward to the OP, which I have done. Assuming that has been received I imagine we may well have come to the end of our little journey here.

    Finally I should say that the window of opportunity for a PAB from the OP has passed: given his activity and his track record for repeating it I think the end result of a PAB is pretty much a foregone conclusion and not something we'd care to waste time on.

    And last but not least the OP should know that an apology will not be forthcoming: I said your case stank and it does. You are an advantage player, part of an organised group of players and I seriously doubt this is the first time you've been shown the door at a casino because of it. You know very well what you did and why the casino took action against you. You've wasted eCOGRA's time, my time and I dare say our readership's time with your bogus "all I'm trying to do is get an answer" BS. So yeah, to the curb you go, as previously promised albeit for slightly different reasons. End of story IMO.
     
    3 people like this.
  34. Nov 26, 2013
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I am a little uncomfortable that merely being an "advantage player" as opposed to a "mug punter" is enough to have someone dragged out into the street and shot. The terms about "professional gamblers" that are often seen in casinos mean very little, as there is no such thing as a "professional gambler" unless one is a bookie.

    What isn't made clear by the OP is whether they actually had money (winnings) confiscated retrospectively, or it was merely a case of the casinos "reserving the right to refuse admission".

    The CM standards for accredited casinos cover how casinos should handle "too clever" punters, which is to pay them and then ban them, not use "professional gambler" or "spirit of the bonus" arguments to void winnings after being quite happy to take the bets when they lose.

    Where does one draw the line between legitimately playing to win (advantage play), and fraud (cheating in order to guarantee a winning outcome in the long term).

    It does look like the OP just didn't agree with the decision made by eCogra, so tried to smear them by suggesting that they no longer dealt with complaints, rather than the more traditional direct attack on the casino in the forums in order to pressure them into reconsidering.

    The OP may also have wanted eCogra to tell him how the casinos detected that he was not only an advantage player, but had a few friends doing the same. I wonder if the casino and eCogra took the action they did was down to there being a group of friends involved, rather than a simple case of a lone advantage player vs the casino.

    I am sure there are plenty of us here who play with a view to winning, even though most of the time we end up losing, who would be worried that playing to win is now enough to have eCogra rule in favour of a casino in a dispute.
     
  36. Nov 26, 2013
  37. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    The info I have is that in both cases winnings were denied because of specifically proscribed play patterns. In other words there's no speculation or presumption here, it's simple Terms violations and the consequences thereof.

    Regular readers should know that I don't particularly like such Terms at casinos. I believe that "betting pattern" Terms are basically predatory and are needlessly corrosive to the player's experience. HOWEVER I also believe that every casino has the right to set the conditions under which they will accept player action. If Casino Schmo decides that they don't want players who wear frilly underpants then that is their business, however ridiculous such a restriction may be. It's not my place, nor I believe is it anyone else's place, to tell them then CANNOT make such rules. All anyone can reasonably do is vote with their feet and take their business elsewhere. And so they should if they find the Terms uncomfortably restrictive or cramping of their preferred play style, frilly underpants or otherwise.

    And so it is with "betting pattern" Terms. If you don't like 'em then don't accept 'em, play elsewhere. But if you DO accept them and proceed to play and violate those Terms don't bitch and moan about them being there in the first place. If you accept the Terms then you are in for the ride, like it or not.

    So, in the cases we're talking about here the casinos have specific rules against certain kinds of play patterns. They're specific enough that in my opinion the casinos can't arbitrarily say "pattern betting!" and hover up the player's money. Those Terms name and detail specific bets and betting patterns, not generic hand-wavy player activities. In both cases the OP specifically played contrary to those rules and as such deserves the stick that comes for having done so.
     
    3 people like this.
  38. Nov 26, 2013
  39. hakapuku

    hakapuku Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr

    Occupation:
    businessman
    Location:
    UA
    I don't agree. The problem with those TCs is that those are NOT specific. Here is a typical example of those rules:
    "The casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings for irregular play. Irregular play includes, but is not limited to, any one or more of the following types of play:


    - equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting for bonus play-through requirement purposes
    - placing single bets equal to, or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited until the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met "

    So what ,except for 30% part, is SPECIFIC here? Equal betting? Zero betting? Hedge betting? What is that? Where is an exact definition of those "betting styles" ? You will not find it anywhere at the casinos' website. Can you find LESS specific rules than these rules?
     
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