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[paul7388]

This thread lasted longer than I thought it would.

 

[mack341]

With respect mack, I don't have to, because I'm not the one who started a thread stating that VS are doing something 'underhanded'.

No I appreciate that but you do have 100% confidence in the ukgc protection system which is the flip side of the argument, also though how can I prove ukgc do not have it written down anywhere [re fines and rtp issues] proving a negative is very difficult.

I was looking at a similar doc to the one you posted:

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And noticed they shift between using 'must' and 'should' so is one a mandatory action and the other a recommendation?

They talk about access to the source code should be strictly limited, which leads me to think there are potential problems other than a game not meeting rtp target.

I think if an issue arose with a game it'd be sorted out all hush-hush, they'd not be announcing 'hey mr public an unscrupulus bent game was out there in the wild, being played by thousands, it got past the testing houses etc..' imagine the reaction from long term gamblers wondering if they had been screwed previously, how could the ukgc maintain confidence that this was indeed a first?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

No I appreciate that but you do have 100% confidence in the ukgc protection system which is the flip side of the argument, also though how can I prove ukgc do not have it written down anywhere [re fines and rtp issues] proving a negative is very difficult.

I was looking at a similar doc to the one you posted:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

And noticed they shift between using 'must' and 'should' so is one a mandatory action and the other a recommendation?

They talk about access to the source code should be strictly limited, which leads me to think there are potential problems other than a game not meeting rtp target.

I think if an issue arose with a game it'd be sorted out all hush-hush, they'd not be announcing 'hey mr public an unscrupulus bent game was out there in the wild, being played by thousands, it got past the testing houses etc..' imagine the reaction from long term gamblers wondering if they had been screwed previously, how could the ukgc maintain confidence that this was indeed a first?

At no point have I stated I have 100% confidence in the UKGC, what I have said is I think it is highly unlikely, to the point of near impossibility, that a game could exist out in the wild, at a UKGC licensed casino, that was consistently failing to meet RTP.

But that isn't even what's being alleged here, the accusation made is that there is something 'underhanded' going on at VS, although not apparently that the games aren't reaching RTP, just that the games are playing 'wrong' - which is amorphous and nebulous to the point of being meaningless.

I'd have more time for this stuff if there was even remotely any evidence to back it up. For example long time CM members will probably remember the big fuss over the Fin Spielo games over at Betfred, where someone came to CM with enough statistical evidence to actually back their claims up, and that one actually went somewhere (and created quite the fuss in the process, and earned me a temporary ban from CM too!).

All we've got here, frankly, is 'I lost money playing random games with a house edge and I'm a bit cross about it'.

 

[snorky510238]

All we've got here, frankly, is 'I lost money playing random games with a house edge and I'm a bit cross about it'.

When did I ever say the games were random? That is exactly the thing I am not saying. If you’re going to quote someone, the least you can do is make sure the quote is correct.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Wow you must do well if your average bonus is 30x.

Do not play it often but most of the bonuses i ever got were absolute crap. Think i would need a 1000x bonus next time to get my average up to 30x.

Im Assuming your joking about your average being less than 30x as others have said i believe the overall average bonanza is about 100x thats taking into account 17's + ones I would say the average 12 spin is about 90-95x

Its easy to work out your actual figure though if you keep a record of all your bonuses.......

My stats support the figures above so feels right to me

 

[paul7388]

Im Assuming your joking about your average being less than 30x as others have said i believe the overall average bonanza is about 100x thats taking into account 17's + ones I would say the average 12 spin is about 90-95x

Its easy to work out your actual figure though if you keep a record of all your bonuses.......

My stats support the figures above so feels right to me

Actually i would say i was pretty serious.

But like i say not a game i play often. And when i do i often get no bonus or a bonus that returns 10x stake or less. Had a couple of decent bonuses but take into account all the poor bonuses and average would probably actually be less than 30x.

Had a few good base game hits tho. But like i say i have never been lucky on it since it came out. Never liked it much or found the fascination so rarely play it. But take Extra Chilli that was always luckier for me. So given the choice would play that well before Bonanza. And with all the other Megaways to me Bonanza is a poor choice of slot to play. Most others have shown they can and indeed do pay monster wins.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Im Assuming your joking about your average being less than 30x as others have said i believe the overall average bonanza is about 100x thats taking into account 17's + ones I would say the average 12 spin is about 90-95x

Its easy to work out your actual figure though if you keep a record of all your bonuses.......

My stats support the figures above so feels right to me

From memory 12 spin average is 96x, IIRC dunover had the actual operator stats or something, so it was easy enough to work out from there. This explains the horribly low feature frequency on Bonanza compared to most other slots.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

When did I ever say the games were random? That is exactly the thing I am not saying. If you’re going to quote someone, the least you can do is make sure the quote is correct.

I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing. If you're claiming the games are compensated or not random in some other way, then that's just another accusation to add to the list that we still have zero evidence to support.

I don't believe Bonanza or any of the other slots you refer to are compensated in any way, I believe they're random, they are tested and certified as random. As such your OP reads to me as 'I lost money playing random games with a house edge and I'm a bit cross about it'.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Actually i would say i was pretty serious.

But like i say not a game i play often. And when i do i often get no bonus or a bonus that returns 10x stake or less. Had a couple of decent bonuses but take into account all the poor bonuses and average would probably actually be less than 30x.

Had a few good base game hits tho. But like i say i have never been lucky on it since it came out. Never liked it much or found the fascination so rarely play it. But take Extra Chilli that was always luckier for me. So given the choice would play that well before Bonanza. And with all the other Megaways to me Bonanza is a poor choice of slot to play. Most others have shown they can and indeed do pay monster wins.

Well its a shame not all players are like me and track stuff then you would know exactly what your average is, every one would in fact then they could back up all these claims of this and that lol.

I like extra chilli too but it has about half the feature average of bonanza in at about 50x but thats the trade off of having a faster feature hit rate.

 

[paul7388]

Well its a shame not all players are like me and track stuff then you would know exactly what your average is, every one would in fact then they could back up all these claims of this and that lol.

I like extra chilli too but it has about half the feature average of bonanza in at about 50x but thats the trade off of having a faster feature hit rate.

Never been into tracking my play.

I just play for fun and if i win good if not so be it. I remember most great bonuses and slots i can not win on. To me sitting playing slots and writing down every bonus and amount of spins etc. takes the fun out of it.

 

[goatwack]

Amazing isn't it, how each of these discussions devolve into the usual cliques, whereby on one side you have the truth-admonishers on the right side of history, and on the other, the tin-loving conspiracy nutjobs whose mantra is basically "It's rigged I tell ya!", you know the ones, the ones that are irrational, shouty, basing their argument on paranoid delusions etc.

Of far, far greater concern is one side's sheer devotion to everything being above board, that these companies are to be held to a standard alongside godliness; that they can do no wrong. I mean basically just swap the UKGC for the Government and these conversations can be mixed & matched in other threads for all they represent.

And yet it's the UKGC where we begin, because as they've demonstrated time and time again is that they couldn't give a flying monkey's about player protection, and are far more interested in blindsiding casinos with fines so as to pep up their coffers. And as history's proven, near-enough all companies are squeaky-clean, up until they're found out to be not.

Except in this case, where the burden of proof rests with the affected players, and somehow, said player is expected to simulate several billion spins through one game to 'prove' something is afoot, something completely and utterly unattainable, and even then, you can be sure the sample will be dismissed as too small. That seems to be the trump card (had to get trump in there) that seemingly nullifies any potential faults with these frankly substandard bits of software.

So again, you have to question whether people dismissing these experiences out of hand are really that blinkered, or have a few fingers in a few pies themselves, because in most other sectors or industries, exhaustive studies aren't usually sufficient reason to pull a product, or deem it 'altered'. In fact, these products are removed faster than you can shake a stick at, and yet, in this ever-lovable brown-envelope-swapping pastime, it's A-ok and the subsequent 'talk to the hand' default setting. I'd be inclined to say if anything's truly rigged against the players, it's the system they've cushtily set up for themselves.

We live in an age where 'feelings' are taken at such high currency that objectivity's all but forgotten. In fact, reading back some of the earlier posts in this thread, I began to cry. Then I showed them to the missus, and she began to cry. Then she showed them to her brother and sure enough, he began to cry too.

Don't fancy working a hard job? Don't worry, we respect your feelings, your truth. Want to call up 'down', or left 'right', that's alright, your feelings MATTER, that much is evident.

Yet holy cow if someone dares to submit their experiences with a clearly defective product - and let's get real here, Evolution have altered the gameplay - then out comes the derision and general dismissals. Why would someone who's played the game religiously for nigh-on six years not have any modicum of authority on the subject?

This industry pulls more rank than a Pound-a-pint Glasgow nightclub, and to be honest, that's just as tiresome as hearing the paranoid naysayers. But there you go

 

[Kroffe]

Amazing isn't it, how each of these discussions devolve into the usual cliques, whereby on one side you have the truth-admonishers on the right side of history, and on the other, the tin-loving conspiracy nutjobs whose mantra is basically "It's rigged I tell ya!", you know the ones, the ones that are irrational, shouty, basing their argument on paranoid delusions etc.

Of far, far greater concern is one side's sheer devotion to everything being above board, that these companies are to be held to a standard alongside godliness; that they can do no wrong. I mean basically just swap the UKGC for the Government and these conversations can be mixed & matched in other threads for all they represent.

And yet it's the UKGC where we begin, because as they've demonstrated time and time again is that they couldn't give a flying monkey's about player protection, and are far more interested in blindsiding casinos with fines so as to pep up their coffers. And as history's proven, near-enough all companies are squeaky-clean, up until they're found out to be not.

Except in this case, where the burden of proof rests with the affected players, and somehow, said player is expected to simulate several billion spins through one game to 'prove' something is afoot, something completely and utterly unattainable, and even then, you can be sure the sample will be dismissed as too small. That seems to be the trump card (had to get trump in there) that seemingly nullifies any potential faults with these frankly substandard bits of software.

So again, you have to question whether people dismissing these experiences out of hand are really that blinkered, or have a few fingers in a few pies themselves, because in most other sectors or industries, exhaustive studies aren't usually sufficient reason to pull a product, or deem it 'altered'. In fact, these products are removed faster than you can shake a stick at, and yet, in this ever-lovable brown-envelope-swapping pastime, it's A-ok and the subsequent 'talk to the hand' default setting. I'd be inclined to say if anything's truly rigged against the players, it's the system they've cushtily set up for themselves.

We live in an age where 'feelings' are taken at such high currency that objectivity's all but forgotten. In fact, reading back some of the earlier posts in this thread, I began to cry. Then I showed them to the missus, and she began to cry. Then she showed them to her brother and sure enough, he began to cry too.

Don't fancy working a hard job? Don't worry, we respect your feelings, your truth. Want to call up 'down', or left 'right', that's alright, your feelings MATTER, that much is evident.

Yet holy cow if someone dares to submit their experiences with a clearly defective product - and let's get real here, Evolution have altered the gameplay - then out comes the derision and general dismissals. Why would someone who's played the game religiously for nigh-on six years not not have any modicum of authority on the subject?

This industry pulls more rank than a Pound-a-pint Glasgow nightclub, and to be honest, that's just as tiresome as hearing the paranoid naysayers. But there you go

I cant use the shield reaction thing.

 

[snorky510238]

Amazing isn't it, how each of these discussions devolve into the usual cliques, whereby on one side you have the truth-admonishers on the right side of history, and on the other, the tin-loving conspiracy nutjobs whose mantra is basically "It's rigged I tell ya!", you know the ones, the ones that are irrational, shouty, basing their argument on paranoid delusions etc.

Of far, far greater concern is one side's sheer devotion to everything being above board, that these companies are to be held to a standard alongside godliness; that they can do no wrong. I mean basically just swap the UKGC for the Government and these conversations can be mixed & matched in other threads for all they represent.

And yet it's the UKGC where we begin, because as they've demonstrated time and time again is that they couldn't give a flying monkey's about player protection, and are far more interested in blindsiding casinos with fines so as to pep up their coffers. And as history's proven, near-enough all companies are squeaky-clean, up until they're found out to be not.

Except in this case, where the burden of proof rests with the affected players, and somehow, said player is expected to simulate several billion spins through one game to 'prove' something is afoot, something completely and utterly unattainable, and even then, you can be sure the sample will be dismissed as too small. That seems to be the trump card (had to get trump in there) that seemingly nullifies any potential faults with these frankly substandard bits of software.

So again, you have to question whether people dismissing these experiences out of hand are really that blinkered, or have a few fingers in a few pies themselves, because in most other sectors or industries, exhaustive studies aren't usually sufficient reason to pull a product, or deem it 'altered'. In fact, these products are removed faster than you can shake a stick at, and yet, in this ever-lovable brown-envelope-swapping pastime, it's A-ok and the subsequent 'talk to the hand' default setting. I'd be inclined to say if anything's truly rigged against the players, it's the system they've cushtily set up for themselves.

We live in an age where 'feelings' are taken at such high currency that objectivity's all but forgotten. In fact, reading back some of the earlier posts in this thread, I began to cry. Then I showed them to the missus, and she began to cry. Then she showed them to her brother and sure enough, he began to cry too.

Don't fancy working a hard job? Don't worry, we respect your feelings, your truth. Want to call up 'down', or left 'right', that's alright, your feelings MATTER, that much is evident.

Yet holy cow if someone dares to submit their experiences with a clearly defective product - and let's get real here, Evolution have altered the gameplay - then out comes the derision and general dismissals. Why would someone who's played the game religiously for nigh-on six years not not have any modicum of authority on the subject?

This industry pulls more rank than a Pound-a-pint Glasgow nightclub, and to be honest, that's just as tiresome as hearing the paranoid naysayers. But there you go

Goatwack for prime minister. I’m in.

 

[goatwack]

Goatwack for prime minister. I’m in.

To be fair it's more projecting than anything substantial, but it was between that and clipping my toenails

- the toenails lost by a gnat's whisker

 

[satchnz]

To be fair it's more projecting than anything substantial, but it was between that and clipping my toenails

- the toenails lost by a gnat's whisker

To be fair, your posts are always very entertaining. Keep it up.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Never been into tracking my play.

I just play for fun and if i win good if not so be it. I remember most great bonuses and slots i can not win on. To me sitting playing slots and writing down every bonus and amount of spins etc. takes the fun out of it.

HAHA im not that sad that I track everything, but I screen record every feature and just put game, stake and amount won on a spreadsheet and it does the rest, its handy for games you play a lot to see whats happening over time.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Amazing isn't it, how each of these discussions devolve into the usual cliques, whereby on one side you have the truth-admonishers on the right side of history, and on the other, the tin-loving conspiracy nutjobs whose mantra is basically "It's rigged I tell ya!", you know the ones, the ones that are irrational, shouty, basing their argument on paranoid delusions etc.

Of far, far greater concern is one side's sheer devotion to everything being above board, that these companies are to be held to a standard alongside godliness; that they can do no wrong. I mean basically just swap the UKGC for the Government and these conversations can be mixed & matched in other threads for all they represent.

And yet it's the UKGC where we begin, because as they've demonstrated time and time again is that they couldn't give a flying monkey's about player protection, and are far more interested in blindsiding casinos with fines so as to pep up their coffers. And as history's proven, near-enough all companies are squeaky-clean, up until they're found out to be not.

Except in this case, where the burden of proof rests with the affected players, and somehow, said player is expected to simulate several billion spins through one game to 'prove' something is afoot, something completely and utterly unattainable, and even then, you can be sure the sample will be dismissed as too small. That seems to be the trump card (had to get trump in there) that seemingly nullifies any potential faults with these frankly substandard bits of software.

So again, you have to question whether people dismissing these experiences out of hand are really that blinkered, or have a few fingers in a few pies themselves, because in most other sectors or industries, exhaustive studies aren't usually sufficient reason to pull a product, or deem it 'altered'. In fact, these products are removed faster than you can shake a stick at, and yet, in this ever-lovable brown-envelope-swapping pastime, it's A-ok and the subsequent 'talk to the hand' default setting. I'd be inclined to say if anything's truly rigged against the players, it's the system they've cushtily set up for themselves.

We live in an age where 'feelings' are taken at such high currency that objectivity's all but forgotten. In fact, reading back some of the earlier posts in this thread, I began to cry. Then I showed them to the missus, and she began to cry. Then she showed them to her brother and sure enough, he began to cry too.

Don't fancy working a hard job? Don't worry, we respect your feelings, your truth. Want to call up 'down', or left 'right', that's alright, your feelings MATTER, that much is evident.

Yet holy cow if someone dares to submit their experiences with a clearly defective product - and let's get real here, Evolution have altered the gameplay - then out comes the derision and general dismissals. Why would someone who's played the game religiously for nigh-on six years not have any modicum of authority on the subject?

This industry pulls more rank than a Pound-a-pint Glasgow nightclub, and to be honest, that's just as tiresome as hearing the paranoid naysayers. But there you go

You talk a good talk Mr Goaty, I'll give you that, and I award your post a solid nine out of ten for inspiring rhetoric and crowd-pleasing tubthumping - the fact remains however that the case for the prosecution has nothing of substance here.

Maybe Evolution have altered how Bonanza meets its (COMPLETLEY UNALTERED) RTP for no discernible reason whatsoever other than to upset a few folks here at CM, (and other games as well that now fall under their umbrella), that's entirely possible, and also entirely within the rules.

I've politely asked more than once now as to what the accusation is here, to actually put some flesh on the bones of how some slots (and specifically VS as per this thread's title) are behaving in an 'underhanded' manner beyond simply extracting their inbuilt house edge from the player over time, as would be expected.

I'm no particular fan of the online casino 'industry', or the UKGC, I've called out what I see as the industry's dreadful behaviour on multiple occasions (and did so regularly on my old YouTube channel, to the extent that it started to attract some very unwanted attention), and also what I see as the failings of the UKGC, but I also give credit to what I see as the 'good operators', such as 3Dice.

In the case of this thread, one simple stat would kind of put the whole thing to bed, what are snorky's lifetime RTP stats at VS? If he asks the casino for that information, they should be able to give it to him, clearly he's done a LOT of spins there over the last few years, I've already said I'd wager money on the fact he'll be within 1% of T-RTP up or down, aggregated across all slots, and yet that fundamental piece of information isn't forthcoming.

For example reelsoffun, who tracks his features religiously and keeps a record of his stats, was able to nail down Bonanza's average feature pay to within the margin of error, and he did that just by maintaining his own numbers player side, no special trickery involved, just recording numbers and doing maths - but hey, feelings beat facts, right?

Finally for this post, I really hope that anyone who buys into all this conspiracy theory nonsense, isn't staking one single pound, even one single penny, playing online slots, games that they actively seem to believe are cheating them in nefarious but completely unexplainable and impossible to evidence ways, because that'd be really stupid.

 

[Kroffe]

Does it really matter if reelsoffun happens to fall within the supposed average for a feature?
Unless he has millions of features recorded its all statistically insignificant, right?

Even if i hand over numbers from 50k features to UKGC/Spelinspektionen with an average that is much lower than the supposed average all i would get is 'come back when you have the stats from 10 000 000 features recorded'
Because when the rtp is calculated over tens of billions of spins, 50k features is a drop in the ocean.

But lets dream and say an investigation would take place, would UKGC or Spelinspektionen do it themselves?
Ive never heard of them doing anything like that, they probably dont have the capability to even do it.
Im guessing a 'testing house' or whatever they are called would be tasked with doing it, or given the incompetence of UKGC/Spelinspektionen i wouldnt be surprised if they asked the Casino in question to investigate it.
A bit like the police investigating themselves only to come back and say 'we investigated ourselves and decided we did nothing wrong', which i think we all know is not exactly a good way to find out if there has been any shady shit happening.

I wouldnt be playing if i thought it was all rigged to be impossible to win, but im not so blue-eyed to just trust that everything is above board in the casino industry and that everybody follows the rules.

 

[goatwack]

You talk a good talk Mr Goaty, I'll give you that, and I award your post a solid nine out of ten for inspiring rhetoric and crowd-pleasing tubthumping - the fact remains however that the case for the prosecution has nothing of substance here.

Maybe Evolution have altered how Bonanza meets its (COMPLETLEY UNALTERED) RTP for no discernible reason whatsoever other than to upset a few folks here at CM, (and other games as well that now fall under their umbrella), that's entirely possible, and also entirely within the rules.

I've politely asked more than once now as to what the accusation is here, to actually put some flesh on the bones of how some slots (and specifically VS as per this thread's title) are behaving in an 'underhanded' manner beyond simply extracting their inbuilt house edge from the player over time, as would be expected.

I'm no particular fan of the online casino 'industry', or the UKGC, I've called out what I see as the industry's dreadful behaviour on multiple occasions (and did so regularly on my old YouTube channel, to the extent that it started to attract some very unwanted attention), and also what I see as the failings of the UKGC, but I also give credit to what I see as the 'good operators', such as 3Dice.

In the case of this thread, one simple stat would kind of put the whole thing to bed, what are snorky's lifetime RTP stats at VS? If he asks the casino for that information, they should be able to give it to him, clearly he's done a LOT of spins there over the last few years, I've already said I'd wager money on the fact he'll be within 1% of T-RTP up or down, aggregated across all slots, and yet that fundamental piece of information isn't forthcoming.

For example reelsoffun, who tracks his features religiously and keeps a record of his stats, was able to nail down Bonanza's average feature pay to within the margin of error, and he did that just by maintaining his own numbers player side, no special trickery involved, just recording numbers and doing maths - but hey, feelings beat facts, right?

Finally for this post, I really hope that anyone who buys into also this conspiracy theory nonsense, isn't staking one single pound, even one single penny, playing online slots, games that they actively seem to believe are cheating them in nefarious but completely unexplainable and impossible to evidence ways, because that'd be really stupid.

These things will always be subjective though, will they not? Because how on Gods green earth is anyone single player expected to fulfil the 10 billion+ quota 'needed' to definitively put notions of foul play to rest?

How can knowing a game's working's intimately be rebuked based on the slot designer's own in-house testing?

The fact remains that the 'industry' doesn't exactly make testing a game over billions of spins a doddle, and so most will base their findings on 'merely' thousands of spins, though in Snorky's case I'd say he's run a good million or two through it.

So for argument's sake, if he found Bonanza to be playing fairly balanced for the first half a million spins, but then, to coincide with a different company's acquisition of the IP, went on on a terrible run for the next 500,000 spins, you wouldn't think at the very least that the distribution of wins had been changed to some extent? Because constantly telling players that no matter what happens, you'll hit that RTP in the end doesn't really cut it, nor excuse the sudden shonky gameplay evidenced

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Does it really matter if reelsoffun happens to fall within the supposed average for a feature?
Unless he has millions of features recorded its all statistically insignificant, right?

Even if i hand over numbers from 50k features to UKGC/Spelinspektionen with an average that is much lower than the supposed average all i would get is 'come back when you have the stats from 10 000 000 features recorded'
Because when the rtp is calculated over tens of billions of spins, 50k features is a drop in the ocean.

But lets dream and say an investigation would take place, would UKGC or Spelinspektionen do it themselves?
Ive never heard of them doing anything like that, they probably dont have the capability to even do it.
Im guessing a 'testing house' or whatever they are called would be tasked with doing it, or given the incompetence of UKGC/Spelinspektionen i wouldnt be surprised if they asked the Casino in question to investigate it.
A bit like the police investigating themselves only to come back and say 'we investigated ourselves and decided we did nothing wrong', which i think we all know is not exactly a good way to find out if there has been any shady shit happening.

I wouldnt be playing if i thought it was all rigged to be impossible to win, but im not so blue-eyed to just trust that everything is above board in the casino industry and that everybody follows the rules.

You don't need that many feature results to start to work out an average, especially in the case of something like Bonanza that in terms of feature results, isn't massively volatile. How many many features on Bonanza do you think reelsoffun has stats for? Millions, or maybe a few hundred, or a couple of thousand, and he still called it to within the margin of error.

Moreover, you don't need billions of spins, you'll be getting close-ish to T-RTP on a slot, even a very volatile one, after 50K-100K spins, because the massive pays are statistical outliers and don't exert a massive influence on a game's overall RTP.

Please don't conflate my position of 'random games with a generous house edge don't need to cheat' with 'I think the casino industry is whiter than white and the UKGC is perfect'. As a single example, I made my feelings very clear on NLC's more recent maths models and bonus buy slot design perfectly clear, and I thought it was scummy as fuck.

 

[X-Raided]

I'm no particular fan of the online casino 'industry', or the UKGC, I've called out what I see as the industry's dreadful behaviour on multiple occasions (and did so regularly on my old YouTube channel, to the extent that it started to attract some very unwanted attention)

That's wild. No wonder you quit cold turkey releasing slot videos talking about the industry.
I remember your Roshstein video generated a ton of views.

You should still release at least a few 3Dice gaming session videos here and there.

 

[mightydegen]

These things will always be subjective though, will they not? Because how on Gods green earth is anyone single player expected to fulfil the 10 billion+ quota 'needed' to definitively put notions of foul play to rest?

How can knowing a game's working's intimately be rebuked based on the slot designer's own in-house testing?

The fact remains that the 'industry' doesn't exactly make testing a game over billions of spins a doddle, and so most will base their findings on 'merely' thousands of spins, though in Snorky's case I'd say he's run a good million or two through it.

So for argument's sake, if he found Bonanza to be playing fairly balanced for the first half a million spins, but then, to coincide with a different company's acquisition of the IP, went on on a terrible run for the next 500,000 spins, you wouldn't think at the very least that the distribution of wins had been changed to some extent? Because constantly telling players that no matter what happens, you'll hit that RTP in the end doesn't really cut it, nor excuse the sudden shonky gameplay evidenced

There is absolutely nothing subjective about this - In reality, I don't think you, or a few others on this thread truly understand the significance of differing RTP's. Snorky claims that he plays max RTP's is futile, especially when we are all aware VS host lower variants.

Here's some information, you and others may find interesting:

Lets say you deposit say £100 and play at £1.00 stakes on your 96% RTP slot game. Let’s assume no variance, so in other words every 1.00 spin will return you the RTP average of 0.96 for the slot. After 100 spins, you’d have 96.00 remaining. Play that back, at 1.00 spins and you would have approximately 92.00 left, by which time you will have played 196 spins. To cut a (hopefully long session short!) if you continue playing and recycling, you would have had 2476 spins before falling below a £1.00 balance eventually. Now do exactly the same with the slot now on 94% RTP, this figure would be 1651 spins, a reduction of 33%. Change that to 92% and you play 1238 spins, a reduction of 50%.

Understanding this difference is pretty key to understanding why legitimate Casinos (i'm not talking about black market/shady places here) do not need to defraud their player base. Numbers do not lie.

 

[snorky510238]

I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing. If you're claiming the games are compensated or not random in some other way, then that's just another accusation to add to the list that we still have zero evidence to support.

I don't believe Bonanza or any of the other slots you refer to are compensated in any way, I believe they're random, they are tested and certified as random. As such your OP reads to me as 'I lost money playing random games with a house edge and I'm a bit cross about it'.

And when I do post something that looks extremely iffy at best, you choose to ignore it.

 

[goatwack]

There is absolutely nothing subjective about this - In reality, I don't think you, or a few others on this thread truly understand the significance of differing RTP's. Snorky claims that he plays max RTP's is futile, especially when we are all aware VS host lower variants.

Here's some information, you and others may find interesting:

Lets say you deposit say £100 and play at £1.00 stakes on your 96% RTP slot game. Let’s assume no variance, so in other words every 1.00 spin will return you the RTP average of 0.96 for the slot. After 100 spins, you’d have 96.00 remaining. Play that back, at 1.00 spins and you would have approximately 92.00 left, by which time you will have played 196 spins. To cut a (hopefully long session short!) if you continue playing and recycling, you would have had 2476 spins before falling below a £1.00 balance eventually. Now do exactly the same with the slot now on 94% RTP, this figure would be 1651 spins, a reduction of 33%. Change that to 92% and you play 1238 spins, a reduction of 50%.

Understanding this difference is pretty key to understanding why legitimate Casinos (i'm not talking about black market/shady places here) do not need to defraud their player base. Numbers do not lie.

Numbers that are stated as fact when players are unable to verify them in any meaningful way. Hence basing their findings on subjective experience like with any other product out there.

I'm well aware of how different RTP theoretically affect gameplay spans, so don't need the pep talk. But if you choose to believe in advance that designers' games play out exactly as intended, without any definitive outlying proof as it were, and contrary to what seasoned Bonanza players experience, then more bully for you!

 

[mightydegen]

Numbers that are stated as fact when players are unable to verify them in any meaningful way. Hence basing their findings on subjective experience like with any other product out there.

I'm well aware of how different RTP theoretically affect gameplay spans, so don't need the pep talk. But if you choose to believe in advance that designers' games play out exactly as intended, without any definitive outlying proof as it were, and contrary to what seasoned Bonanza players experience, then more bully for you.

Have you ever bothered to ask a casino your actual RTP on a game you have played hundreds of thousands of spins on? Or do you just simply ‘feel’ like the games aren’t playing as intended?

 

[goatwack]

Have you ever bothered to ask a casino your actual RTP on a game you have played hundreds of thousands of spins on? Or do you just simply ‘feel’ like the games aren’t playing as intended?

What else is he supposed to go on? Blind trust of a casino's word that the game's tickety-boo, at complete odds with everything he's encountered in the six years prior?

At what point is someone allowed to question the fairness of the end product, without constantly being assured all is as it should be, other than to perhaps summon one's future self to come back 30 years in time and say "sorry buddy, but it seems you were wrong".

Fact is nobody knows how these games play out and whether any projected target is ever met, as it is an ongoing process. But if told one needs 'several billion spins and it'll all be ok', then that seems just as convenient to not meet RTP. Nobody knows for sure, which makes it all the more bemusing.

And whilst this beef isn't with my Bonanza gameplay, I wouldn't trust casinos to even be able to tell me what day of the week it is, as the mere terms 'RTP', 'Wagering' and other assorted pitfalls tend to send them into a state of confusion

 

[snorky510238]

We have analysed your account activity for the game Bonanza. Your stakes and winnings show your pay-out winning percentage (RTP%) is 87.71%.

Should you have any concerns regarding a bet/s placed whilst playing at our casino, please provide us with more details in order to investigate further.

Regards

Complaints Team

The above is copied and pasted directly from the reply I got from SpinRider, after questioning some unbelievably shite gameplay at their site. Thousands in deposits, thousands of spins, over 5 years of play.

Posted this on the Bonanza thread and it was conveniently ignored.

 

[6HellsBells6]

I believe you Snorky, I've been playing hours, days and years and it is so fking obvious to my eyes on multiple occasions, that there is another element at play while slotting.

Controlled environment or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

Casinos do not invest millions for pants yester year tech. They probably have the capacity to learn my bowel movement if they so decided.

I could write countless stories like many of you from different sessions " But I only remember the bad not the amazing hot streak that comes once or twice a year" within range and limited of course.

But before I ramble on and time is currently short.

Watching Live Casino gameshows , it is obvious that there is some sort of control stop mechanism and bingo games and poker are without doubt shady as fuck.

So, if they can get away with it live , then what the fuck would stop them, fucking about with your slotting session?

They have a licence to take, its paid for, and you knowingly enter in to this agreement with the Trp that you will always lose. So why not rape you quicker than normal.

Unless your a rare thing and you hit once and run, unlike us degens who need our fix of endorphins...!

My 2 cents, or thousands upon thousands over years and years

 

[greylady]

I just get the impression that BTG's games drip feed you small wins to meet their RTP before it pummels your balance and slams the door on you!

I can't recall having even had two quick succession bonus rounds on BTG games in the past 3-4 years. It takes thousands of spins before a bonus drops in again.

 

[satchnz]

You only have to watch something like Lightning Roulette for a few mins to see that they use magnets in the wheel and the ball. The physics aren’t natural. But as long as the game maintains RTP, they are doing nothing illegal. It’s shady as fuck but within the advertised odds of the game.

If you think I am tinfoil hatting then spend a few mins watching the game yourself before responding.

 

[snorky510238]

I remember watching a guy playing FOBT roulette (and online will work exactly the same). He used to come in with £1,000 and just bet red or black, at £100 a spin.

I never saw him get ahead once on the game. It would always start with 2 losing spins and then whatever he did the game would never let him get ahead.

I also saw another guy betting on the numbers, leaving only 5 numbers out. 6 was one of the numbers he omitted. £100 a spin and 5 losing spins in a row, with 6 coming out 4 times. I could relay hundreds of similar stories but there’s no point. These crooked providers have got everything covered by shady programming that allegedly meets the criteria required. People like myself will always be in the minority, as the majority can’t see beyond the end of their nose.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So the casinos had an absolute dead cert where they were mathematically guaranteed to make money by running random games with a generous house edge, but by employing all sorts of cheats, trickery and cons, (which there is precisely zero evidence of), they've managed to devise a system where, erm, they also make money, and they're only risking multi-million pound fines, the loss of their operating licences, and potential criminal sanctions to do so.

Makes perfect sense!

 

[Kroffe]

So the casinos had an absolute dead cert where they were mathematically guaranteed to make money by running random games with a generous house edge, but by employing all sorts of cheats, trickery and cons, (which there is precisely zero evidence of), they've managed to devise a system where, erm, they also make money, and they're only risking multi-million pound fines, the loss of their operating licences, and potential criminal sanctions to do so.

Makes perfect sense!

There have been many instances of casinos losing their license, and many many fines dealt out for breaking regulations.
So yeah, as evidence shows they are absolutely prepared to break the rules to make more money even if doing so may cost them their license and/or big fines.

Like you said, makes perfect sense to suspect foul play.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There have been many instances of casinos losing their license, and many many fines dealt out for breaking regulations.
So yeah, as evidence shows they are absolutely prepared to break the rules to make more money even if doing so may cost them their license and/or big fines.

Like you said, makes perfect sense to suspect foul play.

Not for running bent games though, it's always AML related, not protecting problem gamblers, not doing SOW properly and so on.

I can't think of a single instance where a UGKC casino has been done for running bent games.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Anyway, I hope none of y'all are still playing these cheating games, because that'd be well daft.

 

[goatwack]

So the casinos had an absolute dead cert where they were mathematically guaranteed to make money by running random games with a generous house edge, but by employing all sorts of cheats, trickery and cons, (which there is precisely zero evidence of), they've managed to devise a system where, erm, they also make money, and they're only risking multi-million pound fines, the loss of their operating licences, and potential criminal sanctions to do so.

Makes perfect sense!

I'd be inclined to agree with you if at no time had casinos or dodgy software ever been exposed as cheating players before, as I'm sure people that experienced 'discrepancies' with those were probably met with the same sound bites.

Unfortunately, that's not the case, and many have, indeed, been caught out, manipulating and cheating their customers with trickery and cons. So there is that, at least

Why are you so fervent in your belief that this would simply not ever be possible with a UKGC-licensed casino?

 

[thr0b]

I just get the impression that BTG's games drip feed you small wins to meet their RTP before it pummels your balance and slams the door on you!

I can't recall having even had two quick succession bonus rounds on BTG games in the past 3-4 years. It takes thousands of spins before a bonus drops in again.

To counter that - I’ve had several quick succession bonuses on WWTBAM Megaways on many occasions over the last few months. I’m not a large stake or large deposit player - if I can get half an hour out of my tenner deposit, I’m a happy man.

I don’t think they’re compensated - I just think sometimes my luck is in, more often than not, it isn’t.

 

[thr0b]

Why are you so fervent in your belief that this would simply not ever be possible with a UKGC-licensed casino?

I agree with @ChopleyIOM on this - if the UKGC regulated casinos were running bent games, one of them would’ve been fined for it by now.

Now, if nobody is reporting their suspicions that games are bent, that would reduce the likelihood of the UKGC finding out that a game is bent.

Equally, if those reports were investigated, and no problems were found, people would claim they’d been paid off

 

[goatwack]

I agree with @ChopleyIOM on this - if the UKGC regulated casinos were running bent games, one of them would’ve been fined for it by now.

Now, if nobody is reporting their suspicions that games are bent, that would reduce the likelihood of the UKGC finding out that a game is bent.

Equally, if those reports were investigated, and no problems were found, people would claim they’d been paid off

I knew it. 'They' got to you as well!

Come on, how much have they paid you

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I agree with @ChopleyIOM on this - if the UKGC regulated casinos were running bent games, one of them would’ve been fined for it by now.

Now, if nobody is reporting their suspicions that games are bent, that would reduce the likelihood of the UKGC finding out that a game is bent.

Equally, if those reports were investigated, and no problems were found, people would claim they’d been paid off

It's a bit like how we used to test women for being a witch. If they float..... WITCH, BURN HER! If they drown, not a witch, oh well, dead anyway.

The absence of evidence is being treated as proof that something fishy is going on, because THE SYSTEM would never let us know about it.

 

[satchnz]

So the casinos had an absolute dead cert where they were mathematically guaranteed to make money by running random games with a generous house edge, but by employing all sorts of cheats, trickery and cons, (which there is precisely zero evidence of), they've managed to devise a system where, erm, they also make money, and they're only risking multi-million pound fines, the loss of their operating licences, and potential criminal sanctions to do so.

Makes perfect sense!

Did you spend a few mins watching Lightning Roulette? No, I didn’t think so. Learn a little bit about the basics of physics, watch a couple of spins, and come back to comment. This of course assumes that you’ve ever seen a roulette wheel in a land based casino. The ball just doesn’t stop suddenly like it does in Lightning Roulette.

I’m not saying they are breaking any regulations, but they are tightly controlling the RTP of the game. How else could they offer 50x to 500x on random numbers each spin and keep within the advertised RTP of 97.3%? I’ve never ever played Lightning Roulette by the way and don’t intend too.

Slots, on the other hand, I personally have no beef with. I’ve never had any really suspicious experiences with them. I believe that online casinos cannot influence their expected outcomes beyond mis-advertising RTP as I’ve mentioned earlier.

EDIT: Here’s a video of a Lightning Roulette spin gone wrong. Physics like this simply do not exist on planet Earth.

 

[goatwack]

It's a bit like how we used to test women for being a witch. If they float..... WITCH, BURN HER! If they drown, not a witch, oh well, dead anyway.

The absence of evidence is being treated as proof that something fishy is going on, because THE SYSTEM would never let us know about it.

Terrific comparison there, truly

Must be great to place your unconditional trust in a company or product like that, without question. Even as in Snorky's case, where he's being shafted every which way, only to nonchalantly handwave away someone else's experiences like that. I wish I could be as submissive to these trusting companies!

And yet we are told to put up or shut up.....and so players will go along with that, playing games they've been told are fine, all to see that RTP even itself out. And if it happens to not do so, then one's told to not put one more cent through the game, as that would be stupid, right?

Guess I'd best get investing in that lube, things are gonna get bumpy! Because lord help the person that speaks out!

.....and should one have lost a shit-ton already, well, never mind eh. It's just the natural order of things!

Only in this industry I tell ya!

 

[aceking123]

So the casinos had an absolute dead cert where they were mathematically guaranteed to make money by running random games with a generous house edge, but by employing all sorts of cheats, trickery and cons, (which there is precisely zero evidence of), they've managed to devise a system where, erm, they also make money, and they're only risking multi-million pound fines, the loss of their operating licences, and potential criminal sanctions to do so.

Makes perfect sense!

I know choppers please provide some evidence of any casinos being taken for legal action of the above, not fines, I doubt in this case you would ever find any at all.

Reason being every single online casino would be exposed that's why.

There is 100% something fishy going on.

 

[thr0b]

I know choppers please provide some evidence of any casinos being taken for legal action of the above, not fines, I doubt in this case you would ever find any at all.

Reason being every single online casino would be exposed that's why.

There is 100% something fishy going on.

So you’re not playing at any casinos, right? Because if you’re playing rigged games, you know that’s silly, right?

 

[brianmon]

The UKGC would do absolutely nothing. They probably wouldn't even understand exactly what was being reported to them.

 

[aceking123]

So you’re not playing at any casinos, right? Because if you’re playing rigged games, you know that’s silly, right?

No I havnt played for a year)

 

[satchnz]

The UKGC would do absolutely nothing. They probably wouldn't even understand exactly what was being reported to them.

Agree mostly, but if they were to be able to sniff the chance of a nice big juicy fine, they’d understand pretty quickly. They are in it for them, not the player.

 

[Kroffe]

Not for running bent games though, it's always AML related, not protecting problem gamblers, not doing SOW properly and so on.

I can't think of a single instance where a UGKC casino has been done for running bent games.

'They broke rule A, and rule B, and boy do they like to break rule C, but they would never break rule D, because that one is sacred'

That could be how it is, or it could be that its super hard to prove that a slot is running 1-2% lower than advertised and thats why no casinos have been caught/fined for it. Are UKGC even performing checks to make sure slots are running at the advertised rtp?
I guess the only sensible thing is to blindly trust that the casinos do not break rule D until someone gets caught doing it.

 

[aceking123]

Here's the main problem & it's especially here at casinomeister.

If somebody dares to say something is fishy with online slots,there's lots of people who just disagree which us fine.

Problem is they get shit on, not believed & have to wear a tinfoil hat.

Just look at evolution roulette, again I would of liked to have seen his data over his account.

No different from slots, we know they're rigged because over time & the maths
Play the part, but it does not mean that the results on a individual account cannot be fudged to death.

 

[thr0b]

Here's the main problem & it's especially here at casinomeister.

If somebody dares to say something is fishy with online slots,there's lots of people who just disagree which us fine.

Problem is they get shit on, not believed & have to wear a tinfoil hat.

Just look at evolution roulette, again I would of liked to have seen his data over his account.

No different from slots, we know they're rigged because over time & the maths
Play the part, but it does not mean that the results on a individual account cannot be fudged to death.

But again - why would they want to rig an individual account? What possible good could come from it? They’re already making money through letting that player play a game. Why rig one out of hundreds, and thousands of players?

I genuinely can’t think of a single good reason.

And it’s never people on a winning streak claiming the games feel “off”; it’s always the losers. Even when the losers were days earlier on a winning streak.

Humans always see patterns in things that aren’t there, and rarely complain when they’re happy, even if they “know” something isn’t “right” - if it’s in their favour, they’re happy.