Vegas Frontier and FortuneLounge Spam

GrandMaster · Nov 19, 2005

dominique said:
Everyone who has a website is a publisher.

If you publish something on the web, you are a publisher and affiliate programs of all descriptions will refer to you as such.

This is what Fortunelounge wrote in

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

:
"He is a publisher - not an affiliate."

Of course, spammer would be a more appropriate description.

dominique · Nov 19, 2005

That is utter nonsense. :eek2:

You go read through affiliate T&Cs, half of them refer to affs as publishers.

I had to reply to that over at WOL, I must have missed it.

On the entire net, not just in this industry, webmasters are publishers.

inthedesert · Nov 20, 2005

mary said:
There exists the possibility (and some may think I'm being unfair here, so be it) that other third party marketers (affiliates etc.) having seen no Fortune Lounge smackdown on Bercovitz will start also sending spam with their aff links.

I agree, and I don't think it's unfair. As I said before to just "remove names" and carry on is not a real solution to this. There will be a point where this will swing back around again. If you don't call a foul or a penalty the game will always keep going.

I looked to Andrew more than Bryan for a solution in this. Saying that it's not "pratical" to take action against a "honest and reputable" operator (FL) didn't sit well with me. What is honest about allowing a third party to spam the crap outta everyone. It makes me wonder what (if any) power ecorga does have over the "approved casinos" they endorse.

I still get the spam on one account and its coming from the Shawn person. It's not the "rickey" or "skidoo" its something new within the last week. What was I saying about buying new domain names and starting over?

If anyone gets any of this spam I would suggest contacting your ISP directly before you do the unsubscribe thing. I talked to mine and it only took a few emails being forwarded. The ISP now takes those messages that come into any customer it has and deletes them before they hit user accounts. It solves the problem for me. It also stops the spammer from getting messages to other people that use my provider. The spammer doesn't even know the messages never make it to the email addresses. It's not a bad deal.

(Thank you to Bryan for your help, time, and effort)

jetset · Nov 20, 2005

Ivy29 said:
I don't care what his official relationship is with them, common sense tells me that if he wasn't getting paid for it he wouldn't be doing it. Who else would pay him for FL signups, directly or indirectly? FL of course.
I didn't get any for a day, now it's 3 times as many. They try to disguise it with different "from" names but Outlook Express knows its them and sticks it in my junk folder since I have them on block sender.

A year or so ago FL had that unsubscribe link that didn't work. I had to change email addresses to get rid of it. I just have it all blocked now.

There are several good posts here that are right on the mark imo. Mary's observation that any operator allowing publishers/affiliates to get away with this abhorrent spamming only encourages other unprofessional spammers to get in on the act; another from inthedesert that taking the time to report these bastards to your ISP can start making life difficult for them in return.

But for me, the above post by Ivy goes to the real heart of the matter.

These spammers would not be doing this if they were not handsomely rewarded by the operator for bringing big business to his sites.

I now believe that despite all the statements we have heard from Fortune Lounge about "jealous affiliates" and "efficient unsubscribes" they are only going through the motions here and need to be held more accountable.

They are the people in the best possible position to put the brakes on this nonsense, and the fact that it is continuing (with FL always centrestage) indicates to me that they are placing the business it is bringing in before the sensitivities of the player community on which they depend and the professional ethics of good email marketing practice.

I have to say that one thing is worrying me here, though and that is the apparent lack of formal complaints. I know, I know...even one complaint is too many, but realistically if there were significant numbers of complaints it would constitute greater pressure and more chance of getting serious attention from FL.

I read a very evocative passage recently in an article on a completely different issue, but the same principle: paraphrasing, a minority leader bemoaned the lack of attention some severely underprivileged communities were getting and the idle promises made by local politicians.

"It is only when we are standing out in the open in our thousands that our complaints are taken seriously," he wrote.

I can understand that there are circumstances where players think it wiser not to step forward, but if that is the case then it is important that they do something else (lawfully) to strike back.

mary · Nov 20, 2005

Well, that didn't last long.

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spearmaster · Nov 27, 2005

The spam keeps coming - in fact, it has increased over the last few days.

I have once again raised the issue with eCOGRA and I hope that they will finally take action. In fact, I will be highly disappointed if they don't, because it will mean our efforts are for naught.

inthedesert · Nov 27, 2005

spearmaster said:
The spam keeps coming - in fact, it has increased over the last few days.

I agree with this. The effort to remove names didn't help because now it is back. It lasted maybe a few days and now I am getting it again.

Also, I am getting new spam (for non FL casinos) by the truckload. It seems like the unsubscribe bit triggered the flood gates. I don't want to say its the same spammer doing both but what are the odds that two different people would be using the same subject line when spamming. Not very likely. I have seen it a few times already.

It shouldn't take a whole army to step in and fight this. FL should do the right thing and handle this properly. The excuses of "a few people" complaining are pretty weak. Not everyone who gets this spam knows casinomeister or ecorga.

No matter which word you label this person either "publisher" or "affiliate" the bottom line is FL has the control to stop it. Words don't make people forget that in the end FL holds all the cards.

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GemG7 · Nov 27, 2005

I'm typing with one hand and knocking on wood with the other. I haven't had any of the spam since I contacted Andrew and gave Bryan my info. I hope it doesn't start up again.

jetset · Nov 28, 2005

QUOTE: No matter which word you label this person either "publisher" or "affiliate" the bottom line is FL has the control to stop it. Words don't make people forget that in the end FL holds all the cards.UNQUOTE

This is the bottom line. FL cannot palm off its responsibility to the players for this nonsense.

erp1 · Nov 28, 2005

A friend of mine (not member of this board) got tired of the spam and asked Fortune Lounge to close all her accounts. She is told that her e-mail address has now been removed from their mailing lists. The mail continue:

"Please note that we do have affiliates that send marketing e-mails advertising our Casino and we cannot be held responsible for these e-mails. I will forward your details to them and request you be removed from their lists as well"

In other words: ask the spammer to remove specific mail adresses from the spammer's mailing lists instead of removing the spammer from the casino's affiliate list.

How can eCOGRA accept such a "non-spam" policy?

dominique · Nov 28, 2005

I was also removed and am getting more spam.

Now they apparently gave the list to someone called sara marks (sender) and this one not only uses it to spam fortune casinos but other casinos too.

mary · Nov 29, 2005

The evil that is Bercovitz will not be denied!

Whaddya know. They are still sending me Fortune Lounge spam.

The fake "return to" entry has it sent back to me as a bounce.

Notice the deceptive email addresses; this has nothing to do with a "frontier acocunt" that I don't have; and of course I'm not eligible for these FORTUNE EFFING LOUNGE signup offers.

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Ivy29 · Nov 29, 2005

Wierd bounce

I got one of those MAILER DAEMON things the other day from this jackass myself. No limit to what they will try to get your attention.

I always know its one of these people because they have it said on high priority and there's a ! next to it. Plus, no matter what bullsh*t email address it says it's coming from, OE knows it's them and trashes it.

Nothing has changed. I've not done a recent unsubscribed or emailed anyone about it. I've been down that road before with them and it didn't work.

At least they quit calling me at home with those 10% bonus offers. What a joke that is.

I haven't done the PAB thing either, but if more are needed I can do that.

What I'd really like to know is where they got my email address in the first place.

Casinomeister · Nov 29, 2005

I would recommend that anyone still receiving "spam" contact Spamcop:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Also, casinos who feel that what they are doing isn't spamming need to read this:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Technical Definition of Spam

An electronic message is "spam" IF:

(1) the recipient's personal identity and context are irrelevant because the message is equally applicable to many other potential recipients;

AND

(2) the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent.

Spam is an issue about consent, not content. Whether the UBE (Unsolicited Bulk Email) message is an advert, a scam, porn, a begging letter or an offer of a free lunch, the content is irrelevant - if the message was sent unsolicited and in bulk then the message is spam.

We also need to remind ourselves that the spam is not coming directly from the casinos, but from the people their marketing group choose to do business with. Nevertheless, the casinos need to take direct responsibility. For Joe player, it's all the same.

inthedesert · Nov 29, 2005

I don't know who to point the finger at on this one. I know it's gotta be either ecorga or FL seeing Bryan doesn't have my personal email addresses. Will you PLEASE quit trying to unsubscribe me from the lists. It doesn't work, as seen below. It also is telling the spammer I am alive and well. I am getting a ton of spam all of a sudden from a bunch of new places.

this address was previously blocked on
Fri Nov 04 14:XX:00 2005

GrandMaster · Nov 29, 2005

inthedesert said:
I don't know who to point the finger at on this one. I know it's gotta be either ecorga or FL seeing Bryan doesn't have my personal email addresses. Will you PLEASE quit trying to unsubscribe me from the lists. It doesn't work, as seen below. It also is telling the spammer I am alive and well. I am getting a ton of spam all of a sudden from a bunch of new places.

I got three of these today. At the same time, the Fortune Lounge spam keeps coming. Today's offer is 15OO free (note the O's not 0's). I filter anything containing "Driftwood" unread into the trash. Unless you expect legitimate mail about driftwood, this is an easy way of getting rid of FL spam.

vinylweatherman · Dec 3, 2005

Gotcha!!!

I posted a great deal over the last few days on the subject of the Microgaming Loop. The only other forum I have posted on recently is the Online Blackjack forum. Now I have had a veritable avalanche of "Fortune Lounge spam" from Driftwood Bay, Belize. They use a multitude of different sender addresses, but the link at the bottom shows it is always this marketing address, which is the same one that appears on mailers from Jackpot Factory. The "Gotcha!" is this, they are sending them to 'vinylweatherman', the E-mail used for posting on this forum, NOT for registering at any casino group. I believe this is NOT a legitimate opt-in, but simply a bot harvest on Casinomeister, Blackjack guide and other casino fora for likely targets' E-mail addresses.
I am not sure whether this method of compliation of a list is legal under the can spam act, but probably is in Belize.

If these were legitimate mailers, they would come to my "real" E-mail that I register at casinos with. Before this, I had been getting none of this Fortune lounge spam, despite having played one of their casinos and opted in to receive their own mailers. It is clearly an unethical marketing operation, not a "rogue affiliate" that is responsible for all this. This might appear to let Fortune Lounge off the hook, but no, it's all from this one company, so they should not find it a problem to insist they stop by cutting off payments to them so they gain nothing by harvesting E-mail addresses for their campaigns.

Macgyver · Dec 4, 2005

vinylweatherman said:
The "Gotcha!" is this, they are sending them to 'vinylweatherman', the E-mail used for posting on this forum, NOT for registering at any casino group. I believe this is NOT a legitimate opt-in, but simply a bot harvest on Casinomeister, Blackjack guide and other casino fora for likely targets' E-mail addresses.

I can pretty much guarantee you that your email address at the "Blackjack guide" forum you mention WAS NOT sold to anybody. The only reason I say "pretty much" is I'd have to ask one person about it, but I'm confident about what his answer would be.

I would feel more comfortable being more forthcoming in PM's if necessary (so as not to appear to be manipulating Bryan's board), but anyone who goes to here and there can pretty much see why I would feel so strongly about this. :thumbsup:

P.S. Not saying anyone was accusing anyone else of that, but I'm nipping it in the bud before anyone can even think of it.

Casinomeister · Dec 4, 2005

Macgyver said:
I can pretty much guarantee you that your email address at the "Blackjack guide" forum you mention WAS NOT sold to anybody. The only reason I say "pretty much" is I'd have to ask one person about it, but I'm confident about what his answer would be.

I would feel more comfortable being more forthcoming in PM's if necessary (so as not to appear to be manipulating Bryan's board), but anyone who goes to here and there can pretty much see why I would feel so strongly about this.

P.S. Not saying anyone was accusing anyone else of that, but I'm nipping it in the bud before anyone can even think of it.

Thanks Macgyver!

Two things are absolutely certain, your email address will be harvested off any site if it is included in a post. These threads/posts are html docs that are accessable to anyone - including bots. That's just life in cyberland.

This also includes your profile page. If you choose to have have your email visible to the public, it will be harvested. This is an option that you choose - no one else.

What is also totally certain. No one has access to your email addresses in this forum except for me and one of the moderators - Spearmaster. Believe me, they are secure.

So anyway - let's go fishing

casinomeisterspamthread@casinomeister.com

vinylweatherman · Dec 4, 2005

Unethical

I was not even considering the possibility that my E-mail had been passed on by the websites. I was a victim of bot harvesting when I first began to use bulletin boards, newsgroups and fora. I created the "vinyl" identity, along with the E-mail and my website to thwart the bots. If I get spam to my vinyl E-mail I know it has not come directly from a casino mailing list, but from some third party compilation.
This is actually a trick I learned in the 1970's before the age of the internet. A friend of mine taught me that when you write off for things you should manipulate subtleties in you name and address, such as middle initial or extra "clarification" lines in the street - such as house name. When "Junk Mail" arrived this then enabled you to determine who had sold your details on to the junk mail company. The same approach can be used to test for the origin of spam. Many ISPs now allow a number of E-mail addresses per account, and there is always Hotmail and Gmail for more. Given time, it would be possible to determine where the addresses are sourced from down to the resolution of individual fora and mailer offers.

Casinomeister · Dec 5, 2005

Fight Online Casino Spam!

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mary · Dec 5, 2005

Not eligible, fake return path...nothing to do with my nonexistent Frontier accounts.

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mary · Dec 5, 2005

I used the unsubscribe function from Vegas Villa and got acknowledgement a couple of weeks ago.

Fake return-Path. Not eleigible. Deceptive header.

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Subject: no deposit day

vegas-villa.com/default.asp?BTag=MS_129500_503240_015024&link=

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inthedesert · Dec 6, 2005

I am getting the same thing as you Mary. Also, I am getting new spam promoting other casinos (spin palace/ruby fortune and others). These follow the same pattern of being sent to me many times a day using similar subject lines as the FL spam. Since FL is not taking the time to acknowledge any of this I can only assume that this is connected. It didn't start till I gave my email addresses to Andrew. I am guessing this is the same spammer.

There is no possible way to unsubscribe from any of this. Anyone who says different is wrong. If anyone has a successful way of stopping this from coming (not filtering - stopping it completely) I am all ears. I again request FL stop trying to unsubscribe me on the backend. I seem to get notices that I am "unsubscribed" right around the times I post here. I got the notices within an hour after my last post here. To "unsubscribe" is NOT an acceptable solution.

FL needs to be "honest and reputable" and take some control here. It's FL who is in control at all times with this. All the words being throw around like "publisher" and "affiliate" are merely excuses for the fact they don't want to deal with this situation. People are a lot smarter than that. It's also coming more to light these days. If you google "fortune lounge spam" there are many references to this situation coming to the surface.

I have played by the rules for a long time. I did the right thing. I contacted Andrew, I did the unsubscribe thing, I talked to Bryan. There isn't much left to do. I hope they remember that when I start calling support and "venting my frustration" to them.

Casinomeister · Dec 6, 2005

inthedesert - have you contacted your ISP? They usually have an abuse desk that can make the appropriate complaints to Spamcop etc. This is probably the only route to go on this.

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