Terms Dispute UK Casino Club Confiscated over £63,000 winnings

[Casinomeister]

Any update on this? Just curious.

 

[Jelitch]

It’s with ecogra at the minute as well as been listed for the high courts.

 

[Gavashy]

Any update on this? Just curious.

Me too.

 

[irish-ranger]

It’s with ecogra at the minute as well as been listed for the high courts.

Its not really listed with the high courts tho is it..

 

[Jelitch]

Its not really listed with the high courts tho is it..

A LBA was sent 27th April - there has been no response. Yes it is currently been submitted to High Courts.

 

[Waxman]

What game / steaks were u playing. Curious if it was a progressive win ? And if so was the 60k taken off the total ?,

Played there for years , now not allowed (ontario)

 

[Gavashy]

A LBA was sent 27th April - there has been no response. Yes it is currently been submitted to High Courts.

Good luck, take em for stress caused also.

 

[Casinomeister]

A LBA was sent 27th April - there has been no response. Yes it is currently been submitted to High Courts.

Honestly, I don't think you have a leg to stand on. It's this right here: "it is evident that the financial account used to transact on your casino account has been shared across multiple customers that also registered on UK Casino Club with the same mobile device.."

How is that even possible? And how is this possible when you read and agreed to their terms and conditions? The casino had every right to negate your winnings if you were breaking their T&Cs. How could you have thought that this was OK?

Taking this to High Court? You're nuts if you don't think it's going to go anywhere.

 

[Webzcas]

A LBA was sent 27th April - there has been no response. Yes it is currently been submitted to High Courts.

Has eCOGRA given an indication to you as to when they will be getting around to reviewing your complaint? I would seriously suggest you hold off on any legal proceedings until at least they have made a ruling, one way or another.

In your opening post you state:

We joined up and made the mistake of using my card to fund both my account and the other account also. The only reason for this is becuase the other guy just had cash and i had my card on apple pay so It was easier for me just to allow to use my card - I realise how costly that decision may have been.

On my account which was funded with my card in my name I won a substantial amount of money (In excess of £63000) without a bonus simply by depositing funds from my card onto my account.

This I am afraid is a big NO NO and once said action has been identified by the casino ( any online casino ) - being a clear breach of the terms and conditions you agreed to when signing up to the casino in question, it gives them grounds to refuse any withdrawal requests and also close down the accounts in question.

IF you do proceed down the legal route, said terms and conditions will be shown in court. Meaning any judge will rule against you and as such you will be liable not only for your legal costs, but also the legal costs of the Casino Rewards Group. This potentially could by very large - certainly will be in the 5 figures.

I write / speak from experience.

However, good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[Jelitch]

Honestly, I don't think you have a leg to stand on. It's this right here: "it is evident that the financial account used to transact on your casino account has been shared across multiple customers that also registered on UK Casino Club with the same mobile device.."

How is that even possible? And how is this possible when you read and agreed to their terms and conditions? The casino had every right to negate your winnings if you were breaking their T&Cs. How could you have thought that this was OK?

Taking this to High Court? You're nuts if you don't think it's going to go anywhere.

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. Youre correct the reasoning they have advised that they are withholding the funds are as stated

it is evident that the financial account used to transact on your casino account has been shared across multiple customers that also registered on UK Casino Club with the same mobile device

However as for breaching their terms and conditions, this did not occur. The clause in the terms and conditions which they have said I have broken is clause 15(i)(e)

1. If Players transfer funds between each other's financial accounts or if multiple Players have their financial accounts funded by a common source it will be considered fraudulent and it may be investigated. UK Casino Club reserves the right to void any winnings associated with these types of practices and to suspend the associated casino accounts indefinitely and confiscate any casino account balances.

You will see here that the casino has described two different types of accounts - financial accounts & casino accounts. Without exact definitions from UKCB we can assume that financial accounts refer to the bank accounts and casino accounts refer to the accounts held with UKCB.

I dispute that my actions constituted a breach of the terms and conditions of the casino. The terms and conditions state that financial accounts cannot be funded by a common source, but there is no explicit mention of the same rule applying to casino accounts. As such, having reviewed the relevant terms and conditions, it is clear that there was no breach of the terms as stated. It is important to note that your own terms and conditions state that “Players transfer funds between each other's
financial accounts or if multiple Players have their financial accounts funded by a common source it will be considered fraudulent and it may be investigated.” It is therefore arguable that the funding of multiple casino accounts via a common source does not technically breach any of your terms and conditions as stated.

While it is true that our initial intention may have breached the terms and conditions, it is important to note that we did not actually carry out this action. Merely considering an action that could potentially breach the terms and conditions should not be grounds for punishment. Additionally, we took the responsible step of reviewing the terms and conditions and choosing not to transfer any funds, thus avoiding any breach of the rules.

I appreciate your input and opinion that I'm nuts but with all due respect I will follow the guidance of my barrister who has throughly reviewed casino rewards Terms & Conditions and is quite confident that due to the wording of the contract I technically haven't breached any terms.

Many Thanks

 

[Jelitch]

Has eCOGRA given an indication to you as to when they will be getting around to reviewing your complaint? I would seriously suggest you hold off on any legal proceedings until at least they have made a ruling, one way or another.

In your opening post you state:



This I am afraid is a big NO NO and once said action has been identified by the casino ( any online casino ) - being a clear breach of the terms and conditions you agreed to when signing up to the casino in question, it gives them grounds to refuse any withdrawal requests and also close down the accounts in question.

IF you do proceed down the legal route, said terms and conditions will be shown in court. Meaning any judge will rule against you and as such you will be liable not only for your legal costs, but also the legal costs of the Casino Rewards Group. This potentially could by very large - certainly will be in the 5 figures.

I write / speak from experience.

However, good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Webzcas,

Thanks for your reply. Have a look at my previous post and let me know your views. Thanks for your input also. Was it CR you went to court with?

 

[Casinomeister]

@Jelitch - you're splitting hairs here, and on the surface it looks like you were trying to game the system. Is this correct?

Just a caveat, if you were trying to defraud the casino - it's a crime in the UK and you can expect jail time if convicted. Just sayin'.

Another thing, this is not some hokey pokey casino fly by night company - they have been in business for over two decades and are licensed by some of the most solid licensing (Re Kahnawake, UKGC) - so I would expect that their T&Cs are pretty rock solid. And you should have gone the eCOGRA route. This would have saved you some ££.

But I look forward to the outcome here. Please keep us updated.

Webzcas,

Thanks for your reply. Have a look at my previous post and let me know your views. Thanks for your input also. Was it CR you went to court with?

No it was not Casino Rewards. It was another company that had screwed a load of their advertisers - Webzcas was one of them.

 

[Jelitch]

@Jelitch - you're splitting hairs here, and on the surface it looks like you were trying to game the system. Is this correct?

Just a caveat, if you were trying to defraud the casino - it's a crime in the UK and you can expect jail time if convicted. Just sayin'.

Another thing, this is not some hokey pokey casino fly by night company - they have been in business for over two decades and are licensed by some of the most solid licensing (Re Kahnawake, UKGC) - so I would expect that their T&Cs are pretty rock solid. And you should have gone the eCOGRA route. This would have saved you some ££.

But I look forward to the outcome here. Please keep us updated.

I dont know how you have came to the conclusion that I was trying to game the system? To suggest I was trying to commit fraud is quite a accusation to make. I deposited money, my money - I won over 60K and the casino refuses to pay.

I would have expected their T&C's to be pretty solid also but perhaps there are just not as watertight as they believed? Whether its the wording of the terms, a loophole - splitting hairs or however you would like to put it the fact of the matter is I believe how they have acted has been unfair. Nothing I done was to try to gain unfair advantage.

Also to add insult to injury I would like to highlight the fact that CR have advertised me as a winner on your website despite not paying my winnings and without

my consent. Under UK law, the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) is responsible for regulating advertising and ensuring that it is legal, decent,honest, and truthful. The use of false, misleading, or exaggerated claims in advertising is prohibited by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, and the use of someone's personal information without their consent may also be a breach of data protection laws, such as the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR). Maltese law provides similarprotections for privacy and consumer rights as UK law. Additionally, under the Data Protection Act, companies are required to obtain explicit consent before using an individual's personal data, such as their name, initials and or images, for advertising purposes. Using this data without consent constitutes a breach of privacy rights - I have requested numerous times for this to be removed but they have ignored all correspondence.

There has been absolutely zero communication from CR. Not even an acknowledgment to emails. Poor service.

 

[interlog]

You're talking civil law here where the balance of probabilities applies. In terms of the t's and c's, the Judge will look at the overall picture and what they are meant to achieve. Funding others players account with your money is not allowed looking at the overall meaning of the t's and c's.

Criminal barristers get people off quite often on technicalities, less do during civil law.

Are you with a no win / no fee solicitor?

 

[Casinomeister]

I dont know how you have came to the conclusion that I was trying to game the system? To suggest I was trying to commit fraud is quite a accusation to make. I deposited money, my money - I won over 60K and the casino refuses to pay...

They already refunded your deposits, right? So you got paid. You're complaining that the casino won't honour the winnings of £60,000 after you even admit you screwed up. I keep reading your initial posts - and something doesn't quite add up.

My experience with most online gamblers is that they act alone. They open accounts on their own, fund accounts on their own, and play alone. Whenever friends or family is involved it is usually with cases of multi accounting. Seriously, how many folks sit around with their friends and start opening online casino accounts?

When it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

Just sayin'.

And yeah - it is uncool for them to have you listed as a winner. Maybe they haven't made their minds up yet lol. But why even care?

...

Are you with a no win / no fee solicitor?

@Jelitch if that's the case, I say go for it. See what happens.

 

[Webzcas]

You're talking civil law here where the balance of probabilities applies. In terms of the t's and c's, the Judge will look at the overall picture and what they are meant to achieve. Funding others players account with your money is not allowed looking at the overall meaning of the t's and c's.

Criminal barristers get people off quite often on technicalities, less do during civil law.

Are you with a no win / no fee solicitor?

It's not his own legal costs he should be concerned about. IMO Casino Rewards have a watertight case, which they will chuck the kitchen sink at in proving, which won't be hard. But they will do so, so as to ensure they are proved not to have to pay out £63k.

If, the OP goes down the legal route, he will also find that as well as losing the case, the judge will also award Casino Rewards legal costs against him. If, this is indeed the High Court, expect them to be near the amount that he is claiming for....

Edited to add, not meaning to scare you, but I had what I felt was a watertight case and I also as it turned out wrongly believed my exposure to costs were protected by the small claims court. Thanks to not taking legal advice beforehand, I missed the arbitration clause, which fast tracked it out of the small claims court.

Subsequently, said arbitration clause, meant I could not progress my claim in the courts and I was hit with the opposing sides legal costs, which dwarfed the amount I was claiming. Thankfully the judge nearly halved what they claimed, but it was still an 'uncool' 12 grand!

 

[Casinomeister]

@Jelitch - please don't get me wrong. Watching the industry grow for the past 25 years, and seeing what players will do to game the system (believe me, I have seen it all), I can be a bit skeptical of just about any complaint that deals with multi-accounts. But saying this, I always give the benefit of the doubt to the player - I don't like it when there are dolphins in the tuna net.

So I will wait with bated breath on the outcome of this. I hope you can fill us in as this progresses.

 

[Minxxx]

It’s with ecogra at the minute as well as been listed for the high courts.

Hi are you allowed to share what country you are in at all by any chance. I'm wishful thinking and hoping this is a proceeding that can be done from NewZealand also

 

[chiya]

They already refunded your deposits, right? So you got paid. You're complaining that the casino won't honour the winnings of £60,000 after you even admit you screwed up. I keep reading your initial posts - and something doesn't quite add up.

My experience with most online gamblers is that they act alone. They open accounts on their own, fund accounts on their own, and play alone. Whenever friends or family is involved it is usually with cases of multi accounting. Seriously, how many folks sit around with their friends and start opening online casino accounts?

When it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

Just sayin'.

And yeah - it is uncool for them to have you listed as a winner. Maybe they haven't made their minds up yet lol. But why even care?


@Jelitch if that's the case, I say go for it. See what happens.

I'm not defending the op btw - their rule breach is clear.

But surely I can't be the only one that plays at casinos with friends & family? You think people go to Vegas alone as well to play?

I'm mildly concerned that you'd immediately assume foul play if someone admitted to playing with others. Surely it is not against the T&C to play with others? (using one account only, funded by the owner only).

 

[spurs1882]

Maybe I'm being naive but can anyone explain how this could reasonably be considered fraud (regardless of the T&Cs)? It can't be bonus abuse because no bonus was used. If it was money laundering the deposits would be larger - I can see the amount of £100 has been mentioned. And presumably the two accounts weren't colluding to bet on different outcomes of the same game, which could be suspicious.

 

[xecutable]

Maybe I'm being naive but can anyone explain how this could reasonably be considered fraud (regardless of the T&Cs)? It can't be bonus abuse because no bonus was used. If it was money laundering the deposits would be larger - I can see the amount of £100 has been mentioned. And presumably the two accounts weren't colluding to bet on different outcomes of the same game, which could be suspicious.

It sets up a precedent and if you make an exception for 1 player which broke the T&Cs, now you would have to do the same for anyone else who broke them. Once you go down that path there's no coming back.

 

[maxd]

FTR: my understanding is that eCOGRA has since given their decision on the case and they have ruled in the casino's favour.

- Max

 

[dunover]

The 'funding of different financial accounts from the same source' does mean player bank accounts/deposit methods. It's to prevent collusion and advantage play through organized bonus abuse.

As for UK courts, while eCOGRA is a handicap for the OP here having ruled in the casino's favour, expect the unexpected from the court system here. They have often and notably come down in favour of the player/gambler as oppsed to the casino. In this case though, I don't rate his chances more than 33%.

 

[jasonuk]

15(i)(e) If Players transfer funds between each other's financial accounts or if multiple Players have their financial accounts funded by a common source it will be considered fraudulent and it may be investigated. UK Casino Club reserves the right to void any winnings associated with these types of practices and to suspend the associated casino accounts indefinitely and confiscate any casino account balances.

You will see here that the casino has described two different types of accounts - financial accounts & casino accounts. Without exact definitions from UKCB we can assume that financial accounts refer to the bank accounts and casino accounts refer to the accounts held with UKCB.

The 'funding of different financial accounts from the same source' does mean player bank accounts/deposit methods. It's to prevent collusion and advantage play through organized bonus abuse.

Agreed with dunover, the casino seems to describe three types of account - the "casino account" that you log into, the "financial account" which appears to be your casino wallet, because "funded by a common source" would then be your bank or payment method.

In that case, both accounts are funded by the same card and it's game over... and I'm not sure how a court would overturn that when the evidence is there in black and white.

However, reading the rest of the terms and conditions - they clearly use "financial account" as the source of the funds:

15(i)(f) If a financial account used to deposit and or withdraw funds is not in the name of the Player registered on the Casino, UK Casino Club reserves the right to suspend the casino account and or financial account indefinitely.

In which case, his friend is in violation of the terms. However 15(i)(c) allows them to:

15(i)(c) UK Casino Club reserves the right to confiscate any withdrawal or casino account balance suspected of being linked to any kind of fraudulent activity included but not limited to identity theft or payment fraud.

If they can construe the first account as "payment fraud" (which tends to be without your permission, with your permission might be a breach of contract) - that would be enough to trigger the confiscation. If they can't, then it feels like the player might have more of a case? However there are plenty of other "closure without refund" clauses in the terms... and I suspect the player would still be snagged by one of those although whether it's enforceable in court is a different question - e.g. 5(xiii)(a) is a straight F U clause.

As always, a case of doing your homework - I would be very wary of playing on any casino that offers a 10000xB wagering requirement on 95-97% Live Casino games (200xB base, 2% contribution for Dream Catcher, Sic Bo and Roulette among others).

<edit>Apologies for the string of edits; the more I read the more I uncover . A previous version started with suggesting financial account = casino wallet, which is discredited by other parts of the T&Cs</edit>

 

[dpp00]

i wouldn't want to give undue hope, but never underestimate what a judge may or may not do,
i could personally give 4 or 5 examples of not havin a leg to stand on yet the judge awarded in my favor,
one classic was a mortgage repossession for a friend there was no special circumstances so expected it to be granted forthwith,
until there barrister decided to give the judge a speech about the law which he wholeheartedly agreed with and then gave us a 6 month
extension