Ukraine Mess

[wyder33]

I read some of the comments and it dawns on me that not everyone knows why the US and UK are so involved in this conflict. Well, the answer is the Budapest Memorandum. If Ukraine had not disarmed under this agreement, Russia would never have attacked Ukraine. The United Kingdom and the US will simply feel that they will abide by the then concluded agreement. Zelenski feels cheated just like the whole Ukrainian nation, but not by the above-mentioned countries, but by Russia. I encourage you to familiarize yourself with what the Budapest Memorandum was.

 

[Webzcas]

This is well worth a watch

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[bamberfishcake]

I actually disagree Bamber. Our letting the eye off the ball and subsequent 30 year's worth of real term cuts to the UK Defence budget, puts us in a very worrying position. If the planned cuts to the Army go ahead and not reversed, it will be our smallest force in terms of numbers since the 1700's.

Unfortunately, with regards to Russia, both Churchill and General Patton were bang on the money in their assessment on how it should have been dealt with.

Perhaps have a look at the brilliant Julia Davis's work translating the Russian Television channels and you will see exactly what message the Kremlin is sending to their countrymen and women. Chilling if not laughable at the same time.

Its far too hard to find the truth. Imagine the time you would need to watch all the worlds media, which is completely contradictory from East to West, before being able to draw a solid conclusion with confidence.

I can only judge by what I have seen and heard, and what little I know in the grand scheme of things.

But first and foremost, a country's forces should be there to defend itself from invasion. I cannot think of a time in my life, except for the Falklands, when the UK has actually been under any kind of threat apart from minority group terrorism.

Back to the Ukraine War - many claim that this has been building since 2014 when a civil war broke out, courtesy, some say, of US destabilisation. I am also under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the country is divided by the civil war, pretty much into a 50/50 split between pro-Ukraine and pro-Russian.

I do not like that we are supplying them with arms and have been training them for war since 2014, and continue to do so while nurses and teachers strike due to low pay. I don't see piling money into a war we are not directly involved with is going to benefit our nation or anyone else's to be honest.

I think we either get directly involved or leave it alone, not fuel the conflict with arms and training, basically profiting from encouraging death but doing nothing to solve the conflict.

Enough of our money has been spent on defence. We may have much less than before, but we are still up there amongst the most equipped in the world.

 

[Webzcas]

Without an armed forces, there will be no schools for teachers to teach in or hospitals for nurses to work in. Sorry, but I completely disagree with you. Unfortunately defence spending is a necessary evil and the swathing cuts to the defence budget are now coming home to roost

 

[Daavid63]

Its far too hard to find the truth. Imagine the time you would need to watch all the worlds media, which is completely contradictory from East to West, before being able to draw a solid conclusion with confidence.

I can only judge by what I have seen and heard, and what little I know in the grand scheme of things.

But first and foremost, a country's forces should be there to defend itself from invasion. I cannot think of a time in my life, except for the Falklands, when the UK has actually been under any kind of threat apart from minority group terrorism.

Back to the Ukraine War - many claim that this has been building since 2014 when a civil war broke out, courtesy, some say, of US destabilisation. I am also under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the country is divided by the civil war, pretty much into a 50/50 split between pro-Ukraine and pro-Russian.

I do not like that we are supplying them with arms and have been training them for war since 2014, and continue to do so while nurses and teachers strike due to low pay. I don't see piling money into a war we are not directly involved with is going to benefit our nation or anyone else's to be honest.

I think we either get directly involved or leave it alone, not fuel the conflict with arms and training, basically profiting from encouraging death but doing nothing to solve the conflict.

Enough of our money has been spent on defence. We may have much less than before, but we are still up there amongst the most equipped in the world.

No civil war in Ukraine, no 50/50 split. Just a war against an invading force.

Militias trained by the Russians tried to annex the Luhansk and Donetsk regions and little green men invaded Crimea and annexed it.

Then the Russians invaded the rest of Ukraine.

We are directly involved, if you mean boots on the ground then that's a current major escalation and would indeed lead to a nuclear exchange. We are supplying massive amounts of training in the UK to Ukrainian troops in conjunction with other NATO countries and a massive amount of intelligence (Sat, and Rivet Joint operations in Black sea and borders), weapons systems, again in conjunction with NATO partners and affiliated countries..IE the Baltics.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Without an armed forces, there will be no schools for teachers to teach in or hospitals for nurses to work in. Sorry, but I completely disagree with you. Unfortunately defence spending is a necessary evil and the swathing cuts to the defence budget are now coming home to roost

Nobody is saying 'without an armed force.' I am not advocating for an arms amnesty.

Perhaps some of the billions spent could be used for better things than funding a War in Ukraine that we are kind of involved with; but not really involved with; just stoking the fires and making a few quid from it.

I am also not opposed to going directly into Russia should the need require it. We are undeniably involved in a proxy war for profit I am afraid.

I am from a family with a proud naval heritage. My Uncle was quite high up in the Navy before he retired, and he is a little bemused by what's going on. He is a forces man through and through and used to necessary evils.

 

[bamberfishcake]

No civil war in Ukraine, no 50/50 split. Just a war against an invading force.

Militias trained by the Russians tried to annex the Luhansk and Donetsk regions and little green men invaded Crimea and annexed it.

Then the Russians invaded the rest of Ukraine.

We are directly involved, if you mean boots on the ground then that's a current major escalation and would indeed lead to a nuclear exchange. We are supplying massive amounts of training in the UK to Ukrainian troops in conjunction with other NATO countries and a massive amount of intelligence (Sat, and Rivet Joint operations in Black sea and borders), weapons systems, again in conjunction with NATO partners and affiliated countries..IE the Baltics.

Leading to a nuclear exchange is speculation. We have already been threatened.

This way, the war will never end. I don't see this as a winning situation. Cannot see any resolution except for a peace deal, a full war, or this - a neverending half-arsed conflict.

As for the green men and 50/50 split, its undeniable that the USA has influenced much of what goes on over there since the civil war.

 

[Daavid63]

Leading to a nuclear exchange is speculation. We have already been threatened.

This way, the war will never end. I don't see this as a winning situation. Cannot see any resolution except for a peace deal, a full war, or this - a neverending half-arsed conflict.

As for the green men and 50/50 split, its undeniable that the USA has influenced much of what goes on over there since the civil war.

If NATO puts boots on the ground in an official capacity then a nuclear exchange will take place, whether tactical or ICBM's, why do you think NATO has not deployed troops?

The USA..oh dear.

Maybe the article below will help you understand one of the reasons Russia invaded, not only a land grab, but mineral wealth as well. Anyway I will bow out now.?

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[Webzcas]

You really need to check out Julia Davis's YouTube Channel here:

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To get a handle on what Russian propagandist's message is being conveyed to the Russian public. Quite sickening and albeit laughable as well.

Not a day goes by when one of them doesn't wish for Nuclear Armageddon

This is the mentality of what Ukraine is up against and why the west is right in supplying arms to Ukraine.

 

[deleted20230517]

This is the mentality of what Ukraine is up against and why the west is right in supplying arms to Ukraine.

And thus involving the EU, US and all that, into a proxy war (because thats what this is). The true problem is the ever expanding EU and the Nato litterally installing equipment near moscow which triggers russia to say no more at some point.

We had a referendum on Ukr and i think it was a phat no due to it's corruption of the country. Now it's getting accepted in the EU with no referenda, no nothing, just a casual oh it's convenient to insert Ukraine into the EU.

The weapons supply does benefit one party alone; the arms dealers. All the funding send to Ukraine is directly diverted to buying more and more weapons and thus making the US bank on this proxy war thats bin going on.

You dont want to escalate with a country that has more nuclear warheads then any other country in the world. Why the f would you provoke it in the first place? We used to be fine; we used to be OK. But remember when this escalates they have enough to wipe out EU, US and they coud'nt care less if they die at the proces. Any idea the consequences a nuclear war will bring?

It's death and destruction. Not just with the initial blast but for years to come as well. And then we have a general stating on public news that we could go to nuclear war with china in 2025. I mean the world is in a bad place right now, and more weapons brought to Ukraine is only worsening the situation on long term for everyone.

Germany is right not to deliver any more tanks due to escalation - but not even a day later they agreed todo so. Whats the point of this political correctness. One or the other is giving in sooner or later at the cost of thousands of lives and ripped apart family's.

 

[Webzcas]

.You dont want to escalate with a country that has more nuclear warheads then any other country in the world. Why the f would you provoke it in the first place? We used to be fine; we used to be OK. But remember when this escalates they have enough to wipe out EU, US and they coud'nt care less if they die at the proces. Any idea the consequences a nuclear war will bring?

I live not too far from Sailsbury, you know what happened there a few years back don't you? A couple of Russian tourists checking out the spire of the cathedral no less.

This has got nothing to do with NATO or indeed the EU. This is about one man's ambition to restore the old Soviet Union.

 

[bamberfishcake]

I'm not supporting Putin, merely pointing out that this proxy war is riddled with far too much profit-making and not enough problem-solving.

I don't subscribe to the idea that we are not poking the bear because he has nuclear capability. It sounds like a brick-wall excuse to use humanitarian excuses to fund its continuation.

Its a tragedy for sure.

 

[mack341]

This is about one man's ambition to restore the old Soviet Union.

Surely if his plan has been to do this then going in in 2014 would've made more sense, invading 8 years later provided time for the west to upgrade the ukrainian armed forces making 'the first step' to restoring the soviet union harder?

 

[Webzcas]

I see more veiled threats made again…

 

[goatwack]

Usually the preserve of business meetings, social virtual gatherings, or to discuss what party food to arrange for Irene's 18th.

Less so to gather as a collective band of pro-Russia enthusiasts. You'd have to wonder how stupid people are still capable of being, in a constantly- monitored, technological age we live in, and think nothing of discussing their thoughts in Ukraine, during the height of the conflict.

Then you remember yes, of course they're capable! Unfortunately for them then, as they get caught out and chastised by Ukraine's security services and charged as traitors, only to have the national anthem played as the finishing flourish!

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[sufferinsilence]

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[bamberfishcake]

A Central Bank Digital Currency suggestion for Ukraine.



p.s. Skip to 12:38 for the Ukranian promotional video.

 

[mack341]

Slightly hard to follow but seems like the soldiers are exhausted, cold etc.. and are being required to go back in.

It's as I thought they're outmanned and outgunned and miracles are being expected of them, the tanks [mostly old] and other vehicles on their way are not going to make enough of a difference [imo].

Russia is calling up 300,000 or more reservists, who I'm guessing have some military training/experience, whereas Ukraine is sending the modern equivalent of press gangs to go round streets and areas looking for youngsters who might just be old enough, and old people who might still be fit enough, bearing in mind the upper age is 60.

NB: The sensitive content is a message that the men all died, don't know if that is true or possibly russian misinformation.

 

[bamberfishcake]

It's as I thought they're outmanned and outgunned and miracles are being expected of them, the tanks [mostly old] and other vehicles on their way are not going to make enough of a difference [imo].

Russia is calling up 300,000 or more reservists,

I just saw Britain announced a training program for Ukrainian fighter pilots to be able to fly NATO planes.

Like you mentioned, we are also sending tanks now. I agree, I don't think it will make much difference.

Was only a short while ago that we were told planes and tanks were off the table.

I don't mind admitting I am more worried about the future of the world than ever before in my life.

This is a really strange situation, at what point are we declaring war on Russia? Are we already at war, and the approach is to soften the blow? Is it only when we have boots on the ground? With AI and automated military equipment, drones, artillery etc, at what point is the use of British equipment a declaration of war?

Given the approach by the Allied countries, I don't see any swift resolution or relief for Ukraine in the near future, certainly not this year. I see only escalation of the conflict. Russia's defence minister has said more Western involvement will make things worse, which, of course, he would say, but I think it's the truth.

I see two ways out of this current situation - full-scale war or Ukraine signing their surrender. I get the impression that Ukraine is falling. Russia is making steady headway, and the currently bombarded city of Bakhmut, I believe, will fall.

 

[mack341]

I just saw Britain announced a training program for Ukrainian fighter pilots to be able to fly NATO planes.

Like you mentioned, we are also sending tanks now. I agree, I don't think it will make much difference.

Was only a short while ago that we were told planes and tanks were off the table.

I don't mind admitting I am more worried about the future of the world than ever before in my life.

This is a really strange situation, at what point are we declaring war on Russia? Are we already at war, and the approach is to soften the blow? Is it only when we have boots on the ground? With AI and automated military equipment, drones, artillery etc, at what point is the use of British equipment a declaration of war?

Given the approach by the Allied countries, I don't see any swift resolution or relief for Ukraine in the near future, certainly not this year. I see only escalation of the conflict. Russia's defence minister has said more Western involvement will make things worse, which, of course, he would say, but I think it's the truth.

I see two ways out of this current situation - full-scale war or Ukraine signing their surrender. I get the impression that Ukraine is falling. Russia is making steady headway, and the currently bombarded city of Bakhmut, I believe, will fall.

One view I recently heard was that ukrainian fighter pilots who are experienced at flying miGs will find it harder to learn how to fly a f-16 than a younger novice type pilot, as the systems are totally different. Does kind of make sense. Russian military doctrine also puts a lot of emphasis on air defense, much more than the US, as they cannot match the number and capability of Nato's airforce, so questionable whether 100 jets or something would make a difference.

I think the western govts hope by prolonging the war or outcome there is a better chance Putin will be ousted, economic sanctions bite the longer they go on, but saying that it's not the 80's anymore Russia still has lots of trade/oil export avenues, their old ally china's wealth and development the biggest difference to then and now.

Ukraine is losing lots of men trying to hold on in the east of the country, men which they can't simply replace, imo having a battle like bakhmut go on for months suits russia, as they can then concentrate their artillery and intel efforts in one place rather than spread out over miles with small skirmishes, where Ukraine can use hit and run guerilla type engagements.

This recent article from Colonel Richard Kemp warns of shock gains for Putin:

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Until now, the narrative in the West has been that Ukraine is comfortably winning this war, albeit while sustaining heavy bombardments on its major cities. The reality is more complex. The latest estimates suggest that each side may have taken upwards of 120,000 casualties already – hardly indicative of a triumph for Ukraine. And there may be worse to come: the truth is that recent promises of new combat equipment for Ukraine – especially longer range missiles, tanks and other armoured vehicles – are unlikely to be fulfilled in time to have an impact in this battle if Putin launches his offensive on the timetable Kyiv predicts.

...It is essential that we not only maintain our combat supplies to Ukraine, but step it up even further and even faster. If Putin gains more ground, then Kyiv will need to counterattack more strongly, and will need more armoured vehicles, better air defences, longer-range missiles and vast quantities of artillery shells and ammunition. The only alternative is that President Zelensky is forced to come to terms, handing victory to Russia and defeat to Ukraine and Nato.

The problem with that is we're not on a war footing in terms of munitions factories as we were in ww2, and this war does seem to be based around artillery, for all we know Russia may have been building up a massive stock of shells since 2014 just in case.

There is a danger of escalation and a bigger potential for false alarms in the 'nuclear weapons have been launched area' where first strike is a major advantage, I'm not too concerned atm but If the ukraine was directly attacking crimea in force that would be more sleep disruptive because the stakes are then much higher in terms of potential retaliation. It does worry me that man's fate/destiny could be tied to the nuclear weapon, that we invented our own destruction.

 

[slot_zombie]

Unfortunately we are likely to see big gains if not outright victory for Russia this year. There is simply no way Ukraine can win it on their own.

We should never have got involved in this because now we are either on the "losing side" or we go to full war with Russia, with all the horrendous consequences that entails. As unpalatable as it is, there would have been far less loss of.life if Russia were simply allowed to roll in. The end result is the same.

 

[mack341]

I looked up the minsk agreement the other day and I can't see anything that controversial, or more than we give scotland and wales, or the good friday peace agreement. Putin was not going to be around forever, whereas they're in a much worse situation now.

 

[wyder33]

Unfortunately we are likely to see big gains if not outright victory for Russia this year. There is simply no way Ukraine can win it on their own.

We should never have got involved in this because now we are either on the "losing side" or we go to full war with Russia, with all the horrendous consequences that entails. As unpalatable as it is, there would have been far less loss of.life if Russia were simply allowed to roll in. The end result is the same.

I understand that in the event of something you would give your homeland? I haven't read more nonsense. I know that people who are far from the conflict have a hard time understanding some things. Put yourself in the place of the Ukrainians, I wonder if you would like it if someone attacked your country and the rest of the world watched passively. Do you at least know how many kilometers the NATO-Russia border is and how many would it be if Rossia won Ukraine? Maybe it's time to get interested in this and the effects it would have in the future. This is not only about Ukraine, but also about peace in the rest of Europe. If you think that Russia would stop at the Ukrainian-Polish border, you are very wrong.

 

[mack341]

I understand that in the event of something you would give your homeland? I haven't read more nonsense. I know that people who are far from the conflict have a hard time understanding some things. Put yourself in the place of the Ukrainians, I wonder if you would like it if someone attacked your country and the rest of the world watched passively. Do you at least know how many kilometers the NATO-Russia border is and how many would it be if Rossia won Ukraine? Maybe it's time to get interested in this and the effects it would have in the future. This is not only about Ukraine, but also about peace in the rest of Europe. If you think that Russia would stop at the Ukrainian-Polish border, you are very wrong.

Ukraine's borders have changed many times over the centuries, crimea was added by khrushchev to the ukrainian state in 1954, some of west ukraine was part of poland until the 2nd world war including Lviv. Border changes often happen in peace deals to end wars, look how europe's have changed over the years.

What was so wrong or terrible about the minsk agreement, which would've seen the eastern areas still part of the ukraine but with a degree of self governance due to the majority number of ethnic russian ukrainians that lived there?

You would wish us to get militarily involved with boots on the ground and jets in the sky? If not the most likely outcome is how Zombie described, Russia will take those eastern areas and ukraine will lose more men trying to fight to keep them but without success, the only other hope is putin is dislodged and replaced by someone more moderate, that doesn't look to be on the cards.

 

[slot_zombie]

I understand that in the event of something you would give your homeland? I haven't read more nonsense. I know that people who are far from the conflict have a hard time understanding some things. Put yourself in the place of the Ukrainians, I wonder if you would like it if someone attacked your country and the rest of the world watched passively. Do you at least know how many kilometers the NATO-Russia border is and how many would it be if Rossia won Ukraine? Maybe it's time to get interested in this and the effects it would have in the future. This is not only about Ukraine, but also about peace in the rest of Europe. If you think that Russia would stop at the Ukrainian-Polish border, you are very wrong.

Russia aren't stupid. They would not attack NATO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for Ukraine but with all the equipment in the world, eventual defeat is inevitable. All this military support being sent in our name is a waste of scarce resources, and it's just prolonging the bloodshed for the Ukrainians themselves. Harsh perhaps, but true.

 

[bamberfishcake]

The general impression from the media is that Putin has Hitlerish ambitions of world domination, woke one day and put a pin in a map that hit Ukraine. It's not as black and white as many believe.

Any attack on a NATO country would be met with a much swifter counter-attack with more intent and firepower. I am sorry to say this, and I know it's probably an unpopular opinion, but I understand why Putin may feel provoked.

It's a bit like two neighbours fighting over a fence line, and another five come along with no intention of mediating, just fanning the flames of conflict. We could have stuck with humanitarian support instead of throwing in arms dealing.

 

[cncas2123]

Some facts …. Putin has been the aggressor for several years and that was shown by his actions in Crimea.
And because he got away with Crimea he made a play for the rest of Ukraine. If the West had sat back and not supported Ukraine in their resistance to occupation, in a few years it would have been Poland and whatever other countries he took a fancy too. Ukraine is resource rich and all he and his cronies want is to get a hold of them , no matter what the human cost.
To think he would have stopped at Ukraine is naive to say the least, and to say the West antagonised and forced Putins hand is unfounded, the man has no boundaries as he has shown for 20 odd years.

 

[Webzcas]

Watched this in its entirety live whilst waiting for my train home from London on Wednesday afternoon.

Zelensky is our generation’s Churchill. I am proud we are giving Ukraine all the help we can.

 

[Daavid63]

Slightly hard to follow but seems like the soldiers are exhausted, cold etc.. and are being required to go back in.

It's as I thought they're outmanned and outgunned and miracles are being expected of them, the tanks [mostly old] and other vehicles on their way are not going to make enough of a difference [imo].

Russia is calling up 300,000 or more reservists, who I'm guessing have some military training/experience, whereas Ukraine is sending the modern equivalent of press gangs to go round streets and areas looking for youngsters who might just be old enough, and old people who might still be fit enough, bearing in mind the upper age is 60.

NB: The sensitive content is a message that the men all died, don't know if that is true or possibly russian misinformation.

Have you served, seen combat, just wondering why your posting such information along with other posters.

Where are you getting your information from?

HIMARS and M982Excalibur have been game changers for Ukraine. Both have pinpoint accuracy to within 3 metres of a target. The Russians can only look on in envy. They are at least 15yrs behind the West in weapons technology.
Do you realise they are so short of chips the order was given to take anything that has an electronic chip and get it back to the motherland.

The Russian KA 52 Russian attack helicopter for example was deemed by the Russians to be indestructible, currently they have lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm. This is from various videos posted online.

The BMPT nicknamed the Terminator, EQUIPED with the latest Russian tech, they have lost 2 in 2 days.

The Russian offensive has begun, its not going well!!





The tanks the West will provide will be another game changer for combined arms operations again combined with ELINT and Humint.
Bakhmut is still holding strong and killing Wagner and regular Russians troops by the thousands.

The reservists you speak of are second rate peasants recruited from the Stans, as not to enrage the Muscovites and other metropolitan cities mothers when the body bags arrive home. Of the first three hundred thousand they conscripted nigh on a hundred thousand are all ready dead. They don't know what a flush toilet is, never mind reading a map ffs.

If NATO or a country decides to give Ukraine fast jets again that will be a game changer.

The Ukrainians are prepared for a 20yr war to reclaim all of Ukraine, a little birdy told me that when I was in Ukraine.

Anyway rant over, back to my cheesy Wotsits ?

Forgot the mention the Wagner/Alpha group operations in Africa.

Currently in Mali, Sudan, Central African Republic and most recently ie a couple weeks ago into Burkina Faso. They were in Mozambique but got destroyed by the Jihadists operating in that country.

The reason they are in Sudan and CAR is gold, Burkina Faso they will start to destabilise Ghana and pro western countries in that region.

We have been at war with Russia since the end of WW2, look at the proxy wars in Africa and S America, terrorist groups they backed in the West and Middle East, now its on the Bears doorstep, karmas a bitch.

Chin chin

 

[mack341]

Have you served, seen combat, just wondering why your posting such information along with other posters.

Where are you getting your information from?

HIMARS and M982Excalibur have been game changers for Ukraine. Both have pinpoint accuracy to within 3 metres of a target. The Russians can only look on in envy. They are at least 15yrs behind the West in weapons technology.
Do you realise they are so short of chips the order was given to take anything that has an electronic chip and get it back to the motherland.

The Russian KA 52 Russian attack helicopter for example was deemed by the Russians to be indestructible, currently they have lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm. This is from various videos posted online.

The BMPT nicknamed the Terminator, EQUIPED with the latest Russian tech, they have lost 2 in 2 days.

The Russian offensive has begun, its not going well!!





The tanks the West will provide will be another game changer for combined arms operations again combined with ELINT and Humint.
Bakhmut is still holding strong and killing Wagner and regular Russians troops by the thousands.

The reservists you speak of are second rate peasants recruited from the Stans, as not to enrage the Muscovites and other metropolitan cities mothers when the body bags arrive home. Of the first three hundred thousand they conscripted nigh on a hundred thousand are all ready dead. They don't know what a flush toilet is, never mind reading a map ffs.

If NATO or a country decides to give Ukraine fast jets again that will be a game changer.

The Ukrainians are prepared for a 20yr war to reclaim all of Ukraine, a little birdy told me that when I was in Ukraine.

Anyway rant over, back to my cheesy Wotsits ?

Was mainly about the video, which I thought showed a reality rarely seen on our tv news.

You could say the same about the russian army in the 2nd ww, lots of peasants etc..it's still fresh troops. How many game changers do you need? Quantity is probably the issue.

If you know the ukrainians are prepared to fight a 20 yr war to reclaim all of the east russian speaking areas plus crimea, then you can be sure the kremlin does too. So from a geopolitical point of view, not moral or right and wrong, they're probably going to be forced to go all in.

Ukraine other than the bravery of its troops couldn't carry on the war without our support, so indirectly it is our war too now [as Col Kemp closed his article, concerned about defeat for nato etc...]

Personally speaking I'd rather the minsk agreement or something similar had been enacted, seems too late now and we'll have to watch, from the relative safety of the uk, the bloodshed continue. And why are we safe - not because we have a huge army but chiefly because of the nuclear deterrent. Yet that could be the very thing we risk provoking the russians to use down the line.

We would not accept an anti uk military alliance on our border nor would france, USA etc...it was always high stakes poker to try this strategy.

I have not served in the military though have always been interested in the history of battles and warfare, and the above just my opinion. If somebody wants to explain where I'm wrong, or how they see it I have no problem whatsoever.

And before anyone says it no I would not like to live in russia, [or china] where saying the wrong thing on social media can get you a knock at the door.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Have you served, seen combat, just wondering why your posting such information along with other posters.

Where are you getting your information from?

HIMARS and M982Excalibur have been game changers for Ukraine. Both have pinpoint accuracy to within 3 metres of a target. The Russians can only look on in envy. They are at least 15yrs behind the West in weapons technology.
Do you realise they are so short of chips the order was given to take anything that has an electronic chip and get it back to the motherland.

The Russian KA 52 Russian attack helicopter for example was deemed by the Russians to be indestructible, currently they have lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm. This is from various videos posted online.

The BMPT nicknamed the Terminator, EQUIPED with the latest Russian tech, they have lost 2 in 2 days.

The Russian offensive has begun, its not going well!!





The tanks the West will provide will be another game changer for combined arms operations again combined with ELINT and Humint.
Bakhmut is still holding strong and killing Wagner and regular Russians troops by the thousands.

The reservists you speak of are second rate peasants recruited from the Stans, as not to enrage the Muscovites and other metropolitan cities mothers when the body bags arrive home. Of the first three hundred thousand they conscripted nigh on a hundred thousand are all ready dead. They don't know what a flush toilet is, never mind reading a map ffs.

If NATO or a country decides to give Ukraine fast jets again that will be a game changer.

The Ukrainians are prepared for a 20yr war to reclaim all of Ukraine, a little birdy told me that when I was in Ukraine.

Anyway rant over, back to my cheesy Wotsits ?

Forgot the mention the Wagner/Alpha group operations in Africa.

Currently in Mali, Sudan, Central African Republic and most recently ie a couple weeks ago into Burkina Faso. They were in Mozambique but got destroyed by the Jihadists operating in that country.

The reason they are in Sudan and CAR is gold, Burkina Faso they will start to destabilise Ghana and pro western countries in that region.

We have been at war with Russia since the end of WW2, look at the proxy wars in Africa and S America, terrorist groups they backed in the West and Middle East, now its on the Bears doorstep, karmas a bitch.

Chin chin

Hope you're are right, and there is a swift resolution.

God forbid there would be twenty years of war in Ukraine.

Do you think they will hold Bakhmut? It seems almost surrounded.

I get my information from various sources and don't profess to know much about it all. Only what I can try to deduce from what I read.

 

[Daavid63]

Some perspective on the Russian fantasy Island mindset. Prigozhyn is the Wagner head shed btw,




Bakhmut will fall. but the manpower and armour losses to the Russians are massive so a pyrrhic victory.

@mack341
If you were interested in history you would know the West ie the UK/USA supplied Russia in WW2 copious amounts of equipment to keep them going. Hence the North sea convoys to Russia.
Without that they would have been fcukd

 

[mack341]

Some perspective on the Russian fantasy Island mindset. Prigozhyn is the Wagner head shed btw,




Bakhmut will fall. but the manpower and armour losses to the Russians are massive so a pyrrhic victory.

@mack341
If you were interested in history you would know the West ie the UK/USA supplied Russia in WW2 copious amounts of equipment to keep them going. Hence the North sea convoys to Russia.
Without that they would have been fcukd

I was aware of the north sea convoys. They still had to do the actual fighting against a huge, well disciplined and trained German army.

Over the course of the operation, over 3.8 million personnel of the Axis powers—the largest invasion force in the history of warfare—invaded the western Soviet Union along a 2,900-kilometer (1,800 mi) front, with 600,000 motor vehicles and over 600,000 horses for non-combat operations.

The German armies eventually captured some five million Soviet Red Army troops.

So initial poor tactics also ****ed the russians, but as Col kemp said in that yahoo artice, then as now they're learning and improving.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Military capacity is different now compared to WWII though, or am I missing something?

Again, it's hard to get to the bottom of it without extensive research. Much of the internet is giving me different opinions. Maybe its what I am asking it or where I am looking.

I get the impression, with support from China, sanctions have not been as effective, and Russia can carry this on for a long time. This is a ground war (currently), and they are not short of conscripts.

In any case, let's hope it doesn't escalate to Nuclear War. Plenty of news lately about the order to destroy the Nordstream Pipeline came from Biden.

I hear that if the President announces he will do something, he can skip going to Congress and do it with the CIA.

 

[shadow123]

President Z is slightly pissing me off, more or less saying that its the duty of EU and US to supply more arms and fighter planes,
While I understand he wants the maximum help to save his country, if we comply,Putin will reach a the point at which he has
to massivly escalate or pull out which he will will never do.The only peaceful way to end all this shit is negociation which no side
seems to be intererested in.There is a time window which is passing fast for talks after that the result could be horrific.
Just hope the world leaders keep a clear head and only supply defensive weapons with strict conditions and also on the condition
that President Z is prepared to seriously start talks with the Russians.Putin must want out and if it means surrendering a token
amount of territory to enable him to save face it must be the way to go.

 

[Daavid63]

I was aware of the north sea convoys. They still had to do the actual fighting against a huge, well disciplined and trained German army.

Over the course of the operation, over 3.8 million personnel of the Axis powers—the largest invasion force in the history of warfare—invaded the western Soviet Union along a 2,900-kilometer (1,800 mi) front, with 600,000 motor vehicles and over 600,000 horses for non-combat operations.

The German armies eventually captured some five million Soviet Red Army troops.

So initial poor tactics also ****ed the russians, but as Col kemp said in that yahoo artice, then as now they're learning and improving.

The Russian initial Special Military Campaign was designated for a week because Putin was given false information by his intelligence services that they the Russians would be welcomed with open arms.
They have had nearly a year to change tactics but guess what, they cant because the training methodology is so dated its obsolete. The second issue is the technology, it again is so dated it cannot compare to what NATO offers. This is due to massive corruption issues within the military procurement procedure.

When NATO can provide shells that have a 1-3m accuracy any Russian armoured column is going to find it hard going, when NATO can provide ELINT which means they know what the Russians are doing before the Russians themselves know, its going to be more than hard going.

I quote:

Footage (of Vuhledar) shows these Russian forces engaging in highly dysfunctional tactics that are far more indicative of the fact that the 155th Naval Infantry Brigade is likely comprised of poorly trained mobilized personnel than of poor command. Russian milbloggers likely blamed Russian commanders to downplay the fact that the systemic poor training of Russian mobilized personnel will likely continue to result in similar tactical failures throughout Ukraine. Russian milbloggers have routinely accused Russian commanders of being responsible for tactical failures throughout the war, likely to shift the overall Russian military failure in Ukraine from the Russian military as an institution onto individuals. Source ISW

If you want a Russian source then look at this chap on twitter "Grey Zone"





I talk to a few chaps when they are available who are involved on the front, morale is excellent and the Ukrainians are highly motivated, after all the are fighting to keep their wives, girlfriends and families alive, where the Russian conscripts are just thrown into the meat grinder.



It suits us the West in geopolitical and a military sense for this war to keep going, to help Ukraine achieve its goals of kicking the Russians out of all occupied territory and bleeding Russia dry.


Chin chin

 

[bamberfishcake]

President Z is slightly pissing me off, more or less saying that its the duty of EU and US to supply more arms and fighter planes,
While I understand he wants the maximum help to save his country, if we comply,Putin will reach a the point at which he has
to massivly escalate or pull out which he will will never do.The only peaceful way to end all this shit is negociation which no side
seems to be intererested in.There is a time window which is passing fast for talks after that the result could be horrific.
Just hope the world leaders keep a clear head and only supply defensive weapons with strict conditions and also on the condition
that President Z is prepared to seriously start talks with the Russians.Putin must want out and if it means surrendering a token
amount of territory to enable him to save face it must be the way to go.

It's clear Putin thought he could walk through Ukraine and overwhelm it with boots on the ground.

Then along came the West and armed Ukraine. I don't think there will be any negotiation until things get much worse. We originally said no tanks or jets, that's now changed, and it's clear the general consensus is to keep going until Putin buckles.

What's next is the big question that concerns me. What will Putin do if or when he reaches the point he realises he needs to change tactics?

 

[shadow123]

Putin cant back down, it would be suicide for him,after so many deaths on the Russian side he cant come away with nothing
to show for it.There has to be limit to the patience of the military chiefs backing him and the Russian people generally.
It may come down to one of three things, Putin get taken out, Putin fucks off somewhere smartish or the ultimate.
Lets hope its one of the first two.

 

[mack341]

I talk to a few chaps when they are available who are involved on the front, morale is excellent and the Ukrainians are highly motivated, after all the are fighting to keep their wives, girlfriends and families alive, where the Russian conscripts are just thrown into the meat grinder.

Yet Iain duncan smith recently raised in the HOC the issue of suicides in the ukrainian forces:

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Ukraine's armed forces need more mental health support and could benefit from the experience of the UK and US in Afghanistan and Iraq, ministers have been told, after hearing claims that an "astonishing" number of Ukrainian soldiers have died by suicide.
In the Commons, Sir Iain said he had recently visited Ukraine while working with a charity, and heard calls for donations of more armoured ambulances and paramedics.

He said: "The third area they were keen on – and this is something that is shocking – is that the number of Ukrainian military committing suicide now as a result of battlefield stress is astonishing, they desperately need help.

"They did ask that the US and the UK – who have experience in Afghanistan, Iraq – could help by sending some people over to help train in those mental health practices."
----------

This article below in fairness gives some decent counter points to my view that there is likely to be only one military successor in the end, my normal practice though of taking what the msm tell me with a large pinch of salt hasn't fared too badly of late so we'll soon see which is closest to reality.

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[goatwack]

China laying out its 12-Point Plan, not a month, not two, not six, but on the anniversary of the start of the Ukraine invasion, wading in as peacemakers extraordinaire in a bid to bring about the cessation in hostilities.

Which on the surface raises some obvious proposals, if most of it weren't laced in double-speak and barb, and China wasn't a major ally to Russia of course!

One could almost think that the Chinese view Putin in a sympathetic light, and that all sides involved in the bloodshed are equally culpable, such is their vision. 'Sovereignty' to be respected, NATO forces to recede, and China stepping in to rebuild ravaged infrastructure at their behest.

Of course at no point has China condemned Russia's incursion, and with language such as "All parties should support Russia and Ukraine in working in the same direction and resuming direct dialogue as quickly as possible", it soon becomes clear supporting Russia is their main M.O, coupled with military assistance to boot!

Still, despite the posturing, one'd think the only ones to hold any sway in this conflict and have Russia's ear would be China. And if dialogue can bear fruition, then that would at least be a major step in the right direction.

Also noteworthy today: PM and others stood outside Downing Street in remembrance

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[Webzcas]

Sorry I would trust the government of China as much as I trust the government of Russia. China could have stopped the war in its tracks from the outset by not buying Russian Gas and Oil.

China are only doing what is in the best interests of China.

Rightly or wrongly we are in this for the long haul now. We have to put our armament industries on a war footing and Hunt needs to ramp up the Defence Budget significantly.

Failure to do so, will mean ultimately that Ukraine will fall and the Russian bear will be looking further west.

General Patton and Churchill in 1945 were right in their assessment of Russia. As we are finding out now.

 

[Webzcas]

 

[Webzcas]

I won't post the video of the execution that was the reason the following was recorded. This has really got me :-(. Glory to the Heroes, Glory to Ukraine!

 

[dealer wins]

Something went wrong lol

 

[bamberfishcake]

Both these sources suggest that the UK and USA have special forces and troops in Ukraine. Only just come across the news about the info leak. The thread title sums it up - what a mess.

 

[justdoit]

Both these sources suggest that the UK and USA have special forces and troops in Ukraine. Only just come across the news about the info leak. The thread title sums it up - what a mess.

UK USA mercenary like russia is using wagna, mercenary company's they have good fighters coz they pay lot more than regular army, also French Foreign Legion they there in Ukraine

​

 

[bamberfishcake]

UK USA mercenary like russia is using wagna, mercenary company's they have good fighters coz they pay lot more than regular army, also French Foreign Legion they there in Ukraine

​

The second video has someone talking about Russia, China and USA wrangling over control of African countries, with Wagner also making headway in Haiti right under the nose of the USA. Israel is being pressured to supply lethal aid to Ukraine but not wanting to upset Russia. It all seems so abstract. Let's hope it doesn't keep escalating further and peace prevails.

 

[justdoit]

The second video has someone talking about Russia, China and USA wrangling over control of African countries, with Wagner also making headway in Haiti right under the nose of the USA. Israel is being pressured to supply lethal aid to Ukraine but not wanting to upset Russia. It all seems so abstract. Let's hope it doesn't keep escalating further and peace prevails.

UK mercenary companies employ fighters all over the World, 3000 got report it since 2022 in SKY News
Around 3,000 British volunteers are currently fighting on the Ukrainian side in the war against Russia, running Mercenary company you avoid lot of human rights war crime etc, Yes I watch some videos not long ago they attack UN solder's in Africa, they think wagnar attack UN

 

[justdoit]

UK mercenary companies employ fighters all over the World, 3000 got report it since 2022 in SKY News
Around 3,000 British volunteers are currently fighting on the Ukrainian side in the war against Russia, running Mercenary company you avoid lot of human rights war crime etc, Yes I watch some videos not long ago they attack UN solder's in Africa, they think wagnar attack UN

you can hire all Army if you got the money even Air Support lol

 

[bamberfishcake]

Yes, I heard an astonishing figure the other day, the amount I forget now for how much of our taxes are spent on private contractors and black ops mercenaries. Shocked me. It keeps going up every year. Like you say, they can get away with a lot more.