Ukraine Mess

[bamberfishcake]

The general impression from the media is that Putin has Hitlerish ambitions of world domination, woke one day and put a pin in a map that hit Ukraine. It's not as black and white as many believe.

Any attack on a NATO country would be met with a much swifter counter-attack with more intent and firepower. I am sorry to say this, and I know it's probably an unpopular opinion, but I understand why Putin may feel provoked.

It's a bit like two neighbours fighting over a fence line, and another five come along with no intention of mediating, just fanning the flames of conflict. We could have stuck with humanitarian support instead of throwing in arms dealing.

 

[cncas2123]

Some facts …. Putin has been the aggressor for several years and that was shown by his actions in Crimea.
And because he got away with Crimea he made a play for the rest of Ukraine. If the West had sat back and not supported Ukraine in their resistance to occupation, in a few years it would have been Poland and whatever other countries he took a fancy too. Ukraine is resource rich and all he and his cronies want is to get a hold of them , no matter what the human cost.
To think he would have stopped at Ukraine is naive to say the least, and to say the West antagonised and forced Putins hand is unfounded, the man has no boundaries as he has shown for 20 odd years.

 

[Webzcas]

Watched this in its entirety live whilst waiting for my train home from London on Wednesday afternoon.

Zelensky is our generation’s Churchill. I am proud we are giving Ukraine all the help we can.

 

[Daavid63]

Slightly hard to follow but seems like the soldiers are exhausted, cold etc.. and are being required to go back in.

It's as I thought they're outmanned and outgunned and miracles are being expected of them, the tanks [mostly old] and other vehicles on their way are not going to make enough of a difference [imo].

Russia is calling up 300,000 or more reservists, who I'm guessing have some military training/experience, whereas Ukraine is sending the modern equivalent of press gangs to go round streets and areas looking for youngsters who might just be old enough, and old people who might still be fit enough, bearing in mind the upper age is 60.

NB: The sensitive content is a message that the men all died, don't know if that is true or possibly russian misinformation.

Have you served, seen combat, just wondering why your posting such information along with other posters.

Where are you getting your information from?

HIMARS and M982Excalibur have been game changers for Ukraine. Both have pinpoint accuracy to within 3 metres of a target. The Russians can only look on in envy. They are at least 15yrs behind the West in weapons technology.
Do you realise they are so short of chips the order was given to take anything that has an electronic chip and get it back to the motherland.

The Russian KA 52 Russian attack helicopter for example was deemed by the Russians to be indestructible, currently they have lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm. This is from various videos posted online.

The BMPT nicknamed the Terminator, EQUIPED with the latest Russian tech, they have lost 2 in 2 days.

The Russian offensive has begun, its not going well!!





The tanks the West will provide will be another game changer for combined arms operations again combined with ELINT and Humint.
Bakhmut is still holding strong and killing Wagner and regular Russians troops by the thousands.

The reservists you speak of are second rate peasants recruited from the Stans, as not to enrage the Muscovites and other metropolitan cities mothers when the body bags arrive home. Of the first three hundred thousand they conscripted nigh on a hundred thousand are all ready dead. They don't know what a flush toilet is, never mind reading a map ffs.

If NATO or a country decides to give Ukraine fast jets again that will be a game changer.

The Ukrainians are prepared for a 20yr war to reclaim all of Ukraine, a little birdy told me that when I was in Ukraine.

Anyway rant over, back to my cheesy Wotsits

Forgot the mention the Wagner/Alpha group operations in Africa.

Currently in Mali, Sudan, Central African Republic and most recently ie a couple weeks ago into Burkina Faso. They were in Mozambique but got destroyed by the Jihadists operating in that country.

The reason they are in Sudan and CAR is gold, Burkina Faso they will start to destabilise Ghana and pro western countries in that region.

We have been at war with Russia since the end of WW2, look at the proxy wars in Africa and S America, terrorist groups they backed in the West and Middle East, now its on the Bears doorstep, karmas a bitch.

Chin chin

 

[mack341]

Have you served, seen combat, just wondering why your posting such information along with other posters.

Where are you getting your information from?

HIMARS and M982Excalibur have been game changers for Ukraine. Both have pinpoint accuracy to within 3 metres of a target. The Russians can only look on in envy. They are at least 15yrs behind the West in weapons technology.
Do you realise they are so short of chips the order was given to take anything that has an electronic chip and get it back to the motherland.

The Russian KA 52 Russian attack helicopter for example was deemed by the Russians to be indestructible, currently they have lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm. This is from various videos posted online.

The BMPT nicknamed the Terminator, EQUIPED with the latest Russian tech, they have lost 2 in 2 days.

The Russian offensive has begun, its not going well!!





The tanks the West will provide will be another game changer for combined arms operations again combined with ELINT and Humint.
Bakhmut is still holding strong and killing Wagner and regular Russians troops by the thousands.

The reservists you speak of are second rate peasants recruited from the Stans, as not to enrage the Muscovites and other metropolitan cities mothers when the body bags arrive home. Of the first three hundred thousand they conscripted nigh on a hundred thousand are all ready dead. They don't know what a flush toilet is, never mind reading a map ffs.

If NATO or a country decides to give Ukraine fast jets again that will be a game changer.

The Ukrainians are prepared for a 20yr war to reclaim all of Ukraine, a little birdy told me that when I was in Ukraine.

Anyway rant over, back to my cheesy Wotsits

Was mainly about the video, which I thought showed a reality rarely seen on our tv news.

You could say the same about the russian army in the 2nd ww, lots of peasants etc..it's still fresh troops. How many game changers do you need? Quantity is probably the issue.

If you know the ukrainians are prepared to fight a 20 yr war to reclaim all of the east russian speaking areas plus crimea, then you can be sure the kremlin does too. So from a geopolitical point of view, not moral or right and wrong, they're probably going to be forced to go all in.

Ukraine other than the bravery of its troops couldn't carry on the war without our support, so indirectly it is our war too now [as Col Kemp closed his article, concerned about defeat for nato etc...]

Personally speaking I'd rather the minsk agreement or something similar had been enacted, seems too late now and we'll have to watch, from the relative safety of the uk, the bloodshed continue. And why are we safe - not because we have a huge army but chiefly because of the nuclear deterrent. Yet that could be the very thing we risk provoking the russians to use down the line.

We would not accept an anti uk military alliance on our border nor would france, USA etc...it was always high stakes poker to try this strategy.

I have not served in the military though have always been interested in the history of battles and warfare, and the above just my opinion. If somebody wants to explain where I'm wrong, or how they see it I have no problem whatsoever.

And before anyone says it no I would not like to live in russia, [or china] where saying the wrong thing on social media can get you a knock at the door.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Have you served, seen combat, just wondering why your posting such information along with other posters.

Where are you getting your information from?

HIMARS and M982Excalibur have been game changers for Ukraine. Both have pinpoint accuracy to within 3 metres of a target. The Russians can only look on in envy. They are at least 15yrs behind the West in weapons technology.
Do you realise they are so short of chips the order was given to take anything that has an electronic chip and get it back to the motherland.

The Russian KA 52 Russian attack helicopter for example was deemed by the Russians to be indestructible, currently they have lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm. This is from various videos posted online.

The BMPT nicknamed the Terminator, EQUIPED with the latest Russian tech, they have lost 2 in 2 days.

The Russian offensive has begun, its not going well!!





The tanks the West will provide will be another game changer for combined arms operations again combined with ELINT and Humint.
Bakhmut is still holding strong and killing Wagner and regular Russians troops by the thousands.

The reservists you speak of are second rate peasants recruited from the Stans, as not to enrage the Muscovites and other metropolitan cities mothers when the body bags arrive home. Of the first three hundred thousand they conscripted nigh on a hundred thousand are all ready dead. They don't know what a flush toilet is, never mind reading a map ffs.

If NATO or a country decides to give Ukraine fast jets again that will be a game changer.

The Ukrainians are prepared for a 20yr war to reclaim all of Ukraine, a little birdy told me that when I was in Ukraine.

Anyway rant over, back to my cheesy Wotsits

Forgot the mention the Wagner/Alpha group operations in Africa.

Currently in Mali, Sudan, Central African Republic and most recently ie a couple weeks ago into Burkina Faso. They were in Mozambique but got destroyed by the Jihadists operating in that country.

The reason they are in Sudan and CAR is gold, Burkina Faso they will start to destabilise Ghana and pro western countries in that region.

We have been at war with Russia since the end of WW2, look at the proxy wars in Africa and S America, terrorist groups they backed in the West and Middle East, now its on the Bears doorstep, karmas a bitch.

Chin chin

Hope you're are right, and there is a swift resolution.

God forbid there would be twenty years of war in Ukraine.

Do you think they will hold Bakhmut? It seems almost surrounded.

I get my information from various sources and don't profess to know much about it all. Only what I can try to deduce from what I read.

 

[Daavid63]

Some perspective on the Russian fantasy Island mindset. Prigozhyn is the Wagner head shed btw,




Bakhmut will fall. but the manpower and armour losses to the Russians are massive so a pyrrhic victory.

@mack341
If you were interested in history you would know the West ie the UK/USA supplied Russia in WW2 copious amounts of equipment to keep them going. Hence the North sea convoys to Russia.
Without that they would have been fcukd

 

[mack341]

Some perspective on the Russian fantasy Island mindset. Prigozhyn is the Wagner head shed btw,




Bakhmut will fall. but the manpower and armour losses to the Russians are massive so a pyrrhic victory.

@mack341
If you were interested in history you would know the West ie the UK/USA supplied Russia in WW2 copious amounts of equipment to keep them going. Hence the North sea convoys to Russia.
Without that they would have been fcukd

I was aware of the north sea convoys. They still had to do the actual fighting against a huge, well disciplined and trained German army.

Over the course of the operation, over 3.8 million personnel of the Axis powers—the largest invasion force in the history of warfare—invaded the western Soviet Union along a 2,900-kilometer (1,800 mi) front, with 600,000 motor vehicles and over 600,000 horses for non-combat operations.

The German armies eventually captured some five million Soviet Red Army troops.

So initial poor tactics also ****ed the russians, but as Col kemp said in that yahoo artice, then as now they're learning and improving.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Military capacity is different now compared to WWII though, or am I missing something?

Again, it's hard to get to the bottom of it without extensive research. Much of the internet is giving me different opinions. Maybe its what I am asking it or where I am looking.

I get the impression, with support from China, sanctions have not been as effective, and Russia can carry this on for a long time. This is a ground war (currently), and they are not short of conscripts.

In any case, let's hope it doesn't escalate to Nuclear War. Plenty of news lately about the order to destroy the Nordstream Pipeline came from Biden.

I hear that if the President announces he will do something, he can skip going to Congress and do it with the CIA.

 

[shadow123]

President Z is slightly pissing me off, more or less saying that its the duty of EU and US to supply more arms and fighter planes,
While I understand he wants the maximum help to save his country, if we comply,Putin will reach a the point at which he has
to massivly escalate or pull out which he will will never do.The only peaceful way to end all this shit is negociation which no side
seems to be intererested in.There is a time window which is passing fast for talks after that the result could be horrific.
Just hope the world leaders keep a clear head and only supply defensive weapons with strict conditions and also on the condition
that President Z is prepared to seriously start talks with the Russians.Putin must want out and if it means surrendering a token
amount of territory to enable him to save face it must be the way to go.

 

[Daavid63]

I was aware of the north sea convoys. They still had to do the actual fighting against a huge, well disciplined and trained German army.

Over the course of the operation, over 3.8 million personnel of the Axis powers—the largest invasion force in the history of warfare—invaded the western Soviet Union along a 2,900-kilometer (1,800 mi) front, with 600,000 motor vehicles and over 600,000 horses for non-combat operations.

The German armies eventually captured some five million Soviet Red Army troops.

So initial poor tactics also ****ed the russians, but as Col kemp said in that yahoo artice, then as now they're learning and improving.

The Russian initial Special Military Campaign was designated for a week because Putin was given false information by his intelligence services that they the Russians would be welcomed with open arms.
They have had nearly a year to change tactics but guess what, they cant because the training methodology is so dated its obsolete. The second issue is the technology, it again is so dated it cannot compare to what NATO offers. This is due to massive corruption issues within the military procurement procedure.

When NATO can provide shells that have a 1-3m accuracy any Russian armoured column is going to find it hard going, when NATO can provide ELINT which means they know what the Russians are doing before the Russians themselves know, its going to be more than hard going.

I quote:

Footage (of Vuhledar) shows these Russian forces engaging in highly dysfunctional tactics that are far more indicative of the fact that the 155th Naval Infantry Brigade is likely comprised of poorly trained mobilized personnel than of poor command. Russian milbloggers likely blamed Russian commanders to downplay the fact that the systemic poor training of Russian mobilized personnel will likely continue to result in similar tactical failures throughout Ukraine. Russian milbloggers have routinely accused Russian commanders of being responsible for tactical failures throughout the war, likely to shift the overall Russian military failure in Ukraine from the Russian military as an institution onto individuals. Source ISW

If you want a Russian source then look at this chap on twitter "Grey Zone"





I talk to a few chaps when they are available who are involved on the front, morale is excellent and the Ukrainians are highly motivated, after all the are fighting to keep their wives, girlfriends and families alive, where the Russian conscripts are just thrown into the meat grinder.



It suits us the West in geopolitical and a military sense for this war to keep going, to help Ukraine achieve its goals of kicking the Russians out of all occupied territory and bleeding Russia dry.


Chin chin

 

[bamberfishcake]

President Z is slightly pissing me off, more or less saying that its the duty of EU and US to supply more arms and fighter planes,
While I understand he wants the maximum help to save his country, if we comply,Putin will reach a the point at which he has
to massivly escalate or pull out which he will will never do.The only peaceful way to end all this shit is negociation which no side
seems to be intererested in.There is a time window which is passing fast for talks after that the result could be horrific.
Just hope the world leaders keep a clear head and only supply defensive weapons with strict conditions and also on the condition
that President Z is prepared to seriously start talks with the Russians.Putin must want out and if it means surrendering a token
amount of territory to enable him to save face it must be the way to go.

It's clear Putin thought he could walk through Ukraine and overwhelm it with boots on the ground.

Then along came the West and armed Ukraine. I don't think there will be any negotiation until things get much worse. We originally said no tanks or jets, that's now changed, and it's clear the general consensus is to keep going until Putin buckles.

What's next is the big question that concerns me. What will Putin do if or when he reaches the point he realises he needs to change tactics?

 

[shadow123]

Putin cant back down, it would be suicide for him,after so many deaths on the Russian side he cant come away with nothing
to show for it.There has to be limit to the patience of the military chiefs backing him and the Russian people generally.
It may come down to one of three things, Putin get taken out, Putin fucks off somewhere smartish or the ultimate.
Lets hope its one of the first two.

 

[mack341]

I talk to a few chaps when they are available who are involved on the front, morale is excellent and the Ukrainians are highly motivated, after all the are fighting to keep their wives, girlfriends and families alive, where the Russian conscripts are just thrown into the meat grinder.

Yet Iain duncan smith recently raised in the HOC the issue of suicides in the ukrainian forces:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ukraine's armed forces need more mental health support and could benefit from the experience of the UK and US in Afghanistan and Iraq, ministers have been told, after hearing claims that an "astonishing" number of Ukrainian soldiers have died by suicide.
In the Commons, Sir Iain said he had recently visited Ukraine while working with a charity, and heard calls for donations of more armoured ambulances and paramedics.

He said: "The third area they were keen on – and this is something that is shocking – is that the number of Ukrainian military committing suicide now as a result of battlefield stress is astonishing, they desperately need help.

"They did ask that the US and the UK – who have experience in Afghanistan, Iraq – could help by sending some people over to help train in those mental health practices."
----------

This article below in fairness gives some decent counter points to my view that there is likely to be only one military successor in the end, my normal practice though of taking what the msm tell me with a large pinch of salt hasn't fared too badly of late so we'll soon see which is closest to reality.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[goatwack]

China laying out its 12-Point Plan, not a month, not two, not six, but on the anniversary of the start of the Ukraine invasion, wading in as peacemakers extraordinaire in a bid to bring about the cessation in hostilities.

Which on the surface raises some obvious proposals, if most of it weren't laced in double-speak and barb, and China wasn't a major ally to Russia of course!

One could almost think that the Chinese view Putin in a sympathetic light, and that all sides involved in the bloodshed are equally culpable, such is their vision. 'Sovereignty' to be respected, NATO forces to recede, and China stepping in to rebuild ravaged infrastructure at their behest.

Of course at no point has China condemned Russia's incursion, and with language such as "All parties should support Russia and Ukraine in working in the same direction and resuming direct dialogue as quickly as possible", it soon becomes clear supporting Russia is their main M.O, coupled with military assistance to boot!

Still, despite the posturing, one'd think the only ones to hold any sway in this conflict and have Russia's ear would be China. And if dialogue can bear fruition, then that would at least be a major step in the right direction.

Also noteworthy today: PM and others stood outside Downing Street in remembrance

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Webzcas]

Sorry I would trust the government of China as much as I trust the government of Russia. China could have stopped the war in its tracks from the outset by not buying Russian Gas and Oil.

China are only doing what is in the best interests of China.

Rightly or wrongly we are in this for the long haul now. We have to put our armament industries on a war footing and Hunt needs to ramp up the Defence Budget significantly.

Failure to do so, will mean ultimately that Ukraine will fall and the Russian bear will be looking further west.

General Patton and Churchill in 1945 were right in their assessment of Russia. As we are finding out now.

 

[Webzcas]

 

[Webzcas]

I won't post the video of the execution that was the reason the following was recorded. This has really got me :-(. Glory to the Heroes, Glory to Ukraine!

 

[dealer wins]

Something went wrong lol

 

[bamberfishcake]

Both these sources suggest that the UK and USA have special forces and troops in Ukraine. Only just come across the news about the info leak. The thread title sums it up - what a mess.

 

[justdoit]

Both these sources suggest that the UK and USA have special forces and troops in Ukraine. Only just come across the news about the info leak. The thread title sums it up - what a mess.

UK USA mercenary like russia is using wagna, mercenary company's they have good fighters coz they pay lot more than regular army, also French Foreign Legion they there in Ukraine

​

 

[bamberfishcake]

UK USA mercenary like russia is using wagna, mercenary company's they have good fighters coz they pay lot more than regular army, also French Foreign Legion they there in Ukraine

​

The second video has someone talking about Russia, China and USA wrangling over control of African countries, with Wagner also making headway in Haiti right under the nose of the USA. Israel is being pressured to supply lethal aid to Ukraine but not wanting to upset Russia. It all seems so abstract. Let's hope it doesn't keep escalating further and peace prevails.

 

[justdoit]

The second video has someone talking about Russia, China and USA wrangling over control of African countries, with Wagner also making headway in Haiti right under the nose of the USA. Israel is being pressured to supply lethal aid to Ukraine but not wanting to upset Russia. It all seems so abstract. Let's hope it doesn't keep escalating further and peace prevails.

UK mercenary companies employ fighters all over the World, 3000 got report it since 2022 in SKY News
Around 3,000 British volunteers are currently fighting on the Ukrainian side in the war against Russia, running Mercenary company you avoid lot of human rights war crime etc, Yes I watch some videos not long ago they attack UN solder's in Africa, they think wagnar attack UN

 

[justdoit]

UK mercenary companies employ fighters all over the World, 3000 got report it since 2022 in SKY News
Around 3,000 British volunteers are currently fighting on the Ukrainian side in the war against Russia, running Mercenary company you avoid lot of human rights war crime etc, Yes I watch some videos not long ago they attack UN solder's in Africa, they think wagnar attack UN

you can hire all Army if you got the money even Air Support lol

 

[bamberfishcake]

Yes, I heard an astonishing figure the other day, the amount I forget now for how much of our taxes are spent on private contractors and black ops mercenaries. Shocked me. It keeps going up every year. Like you say, they can get away with a lot more.