UK Conservative Party Leadership Election

ChopleyIOM

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This is certainly a take. Nadhim apparently forgetting who's been in government for the last twelve years as we go into the worst winter of industrial action since the actual winter of discontent.

LABOUR'S NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS.

 

megadam

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This is certainly a take. Nadhim apparently forgetting who's been in government for the last twelve years as we go into the worst winter of industrial action since the actual winter of discontent.

LABOUR'S NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS.



Surprised he didn't take the opportunity to actually say that because Labour isn't standing up to the Unions and that in turn striking is what Putin want's to see apparently that Labour are in fact supporting the Russian state. It really wouldn't surprise me, that man needs to be reminded of the bile that comes out of his mouth but also his own incredibly idiotic hypocritical actions and past.
 

pinnit2014

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The public sector need to watch what they wish for: yes, wages are lower that private sector counterparts, but the perks are substantial: walk into a private sector company on 35k a year and ask to match 6 months full pay sick, 42 days A/L, non compulsory redundancies and 23-30% pension schemes, and they'll look at you as if your're as crazy as playing Bonanza.

When i worked there there was talk of chipping away at the t's and c's but they left as it was. Wouldn't be a surprised if they finally start to make inroads into it. I know when i left i put a monetary amount of around 10k on losing such.

As for public support for the strikes? I wouldn't say there is - talk to the guy in the street, on a waiting list for 12 months for a hip operation and ask them if they support the NHS ones and i doubt you'll hear a Solidarity with Cuba message.

Lot of private sector employees aren't having wages increase matched by the inflation rate (2.5% in this house) so when i hear of some asking for 15%, and taking a/c of the above, i choke on my battered sausage supper.
 

mack341

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The lockdown fanatics, including 99% labour, should bear some of the blame on the [basic] financial match that lit the fire. The govt printed 400 billion to fund it all i.e. the bank of england lent them it. Of course that devalues the existing £ in people's pocket.

Then there's nick clegg blocking the building of nuclear power stations when he was in the coalition, saying they'd take till 2022 to come into use, well that would've been bloody handy right now.

Though Nadhim zahawi is not somebody I warm to, something slippery about him, has he actually achieved anything in the various depts he ran. It's all a game of who's mates with who and he was close to Boris, iirc he once claimed expenses to pay for the heating of his horse stables, talk about being out of touch or not fit in the first place to govern.
 
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goatwack

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Everyone's favourite Labour fanboy and party leader- elect Gary Neville taking a break from sipping champagne to vent his plastic empathy, in favour of nurses' miserly pay conditions in this country, at circa £36K per annum, and willing them to get that extra quid or two to alleviate their suffering.

Likening Qatari workers' plight, such as, I dunno, slavery and death, to the UK's nurses pay disputes, whilst on-air, to a ready-made footballing viewing audience trying to extract any glimpse of sense from his usual punditry.

All the while of the misguided belief that the completely unrelated issues are somehow conflated, and that he can abuse his platform to spout his ideals, lest we forget, whilst also pocketing some of that juicy Qatari cash. Hmm-hm!

We've even had Sunak tell him to stick to football, and by Jove, if only it were that easy! Yet of course, out comes the predictable congratulatory Labour back-rubbing, tone-deaf to the very notion that if Neville wanted to air his political grievances, then doing so in a footballing, professional capacity isn't what people tuned in to see.

But of course best of all is his very own empire he built, Hotel Football, where his workers' concerns over many things, including pay, tended to fall on deaf ears. How could this be, when he is such a champion of the people, I hear you cry? 🤔

All herald Keir's protege, for the boy did good!

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pinnit2014

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And then there is Lineker - a guy so enraged with the SA 2010 and the worker issues then, he gets out his moral compass by, er, honouring his BBC contract.

Respect for them if they simply didn't turn up to commentate but did that they did.

That picture on the right is worse than any Boris bad hair day :eek:
 

ChopleyIOM

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Here's what twelve years of austerity look like.

New Labour weren't perfect, not by a long chalk, but in 2010 you could easily see your doctor, and if you went to A&E you were almost guaranteed to be seen within four hours. If you called an ambulance you'd almost always have one at your door in a few minutes if you were in the most serious category for attendance.

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ChopleyIOM

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Yes I know it's only an opinion poll and we're two years out from a general election, but remember there will be no economic growth/recovery in that time because Brexit has made it impossible, so it's easy to see something like this sticking.

Add in renewed austerity, a collapsing NHS, a winter of discontent with the general public largely supporting the strikers (not everyone supports them, but a decent majority does, especially when you get to the nurses and ambulance drivers and suchlike), stagnating (or declining) wages, rising interest rates, rampant inflation, and a general sense that nothing in the UK bloody well works properly anymore - and all after twelve years of Tory rule, I can see these numbers, or something like them, making it to the next general election.

If I had to pick a single original sin, a single event that has precipitated all of this, it would be Brexit. It's eaten four Tory prime ministers already, and it's going to do for Sunak as well, to make an impressive tally of five in eight years.

Thank goodness we avoided chaos with Ed Miliband and his slightly awkward way of eating a bacon sandwich.

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mack341

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There is probably a general feeling out there that the tories are tired and no longer give a sh*t enough to put the effort and energy in, just need a bit more sleaze revealed between now and 2024/25 and they'll have outstayed their welcome.

Not that I'd look forward to labour, they can be like the EU on steroids, trying to make everything and everybody more woke, which will always take priority over being more well off.
 

ChopleyIOM

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I've been saying this for a while, but we've got the evidence to back it up now, people have stopped becoming right wing as they get older.

Demographics will do for the Tories the same as it will do for Brexit, all it's going to take is time.

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The argument is a simple one. It is that as people get older they are no longer moving to the right but are, instead, moving leftward. The millennial generation (born 1981 - 1996) are the first to display this trend.

Why? The reasons seem obvious:

  • Reduced access to housing
  • No jobs for life
  • No pension security
  • Student debt
  • Climate change
  • Growing up with austerity
I might also add, better education may play a part, because it always does on this issue.

There are consequences:

  • The older vote will no longer be as right-wing
  • Recruiting able people will be harder for the right
  • The left can think about the long term
 

dunover

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I've been saying this for a while, but we've got the evidence to back it up now, people have stopped becoming right wing as they get older.

Demographics will do for the Tories the same as it will do for Brexit, all it's going to take is time.

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The argument is a simple one. It is that as people get older they are no longer moving to the right but are, instead, moving leftward. The millennial generation (born 1981 - 1996) are the first to display this trend.

Why? The reasons seem obvious:


  • Reduced access to housing
  • No jobs for life
  • No pension security
  • Student debt
  • Climate change
  • Growing up with austerity
I might also add, better education may play a part, because it always does on this issue.

There are consequences:


  • The older vote will no longer be as right-wing
  • Recruiting able people will be harder for the right
  • The left can think about the long term
You mean you are now saying not all pensioners are racists? :laugh::laugh:
 

mack341

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You'd have to define what being conservative means, and its opposite, to know whether this is going to be a good thing.

Looking around and remembering the 80s when society as a whole was more conservative [incl labour voting families] I'd say a further move away from this spells a worse future, more breakdown.

There is no future multicultural utopia with open borders, EU membership, and full blossoming money trees which the govt can shake and make everyone happy.

Look at the US they've got a democrat president, head of a very 'progressive' party, notice anything better yet?
 

dunover

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You'd have to define what being conservative means, and its opposite, to know whether this is going to be a good thing.

Looking around and remembering the 80s when society as a whole was more conservative [incl labour voting families] I'd say a further move away from this spells a worse future, more breakdown.

There is no future multicultural utopia with open borders, EU membership, and full blossoming money trees which the govt can shake and make everyone happy.

Look at the US they've got a democrat president, head of a very 'progressive' party, notice anything better yet?
Is he actually alive though? :confused: Or is he a cadaver operated by electric pulses to simulate human movement and speech?
 

goatwack

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Today's version of 'liberal' and 'progressive' is anything but, and more steeped in shutting down anything not beholden to one's own personal ideals. Whereas those accepting of different viewpoints, lifestyles and ideals, whilst mindful of others' choices used to be called libertarian - a dying breed if ever I saw one!

But as mentioned, society as a whole was more conservative in their values, based largely off religious principles. Now, religion's pretty much had it, and so people veer off into 'self' and what they can get for themselves, over anything.

Yet ultimately it'll take some convincing to tell me that human behaviour isn't by and large rather predictable, no matter how many polls, graphs or surveys you present to me. It's just human nature that on the whole, old(er) people lean on conservative beliefs, part-consolidation, part-having seen it all before, and mostly by seeing that ultimately, conservative beliefs have endured greater than many others when all's said and done!

So no, I don't believe there's a surge towards liberalism by the senior folk (even the racist ones) :laugh:
 

ChopleyIOM

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The polls, graphs, surveys, and all the other research that's gone into this makes it very clear that Millenials are ageing differently to the generations before them, they are not becoming more socially conservative as they get older, and they are not tending towards the right wing. (Obviously it's too early to tell in many regards about 'Generation Z', but the indications at this stage are they're going to be a whole extra step towards left/liberal tendencies from Millenials.)

And it's not hard to see why, the old social contract has been stripped away from them, whilst current pensioners (often right wing and Brexity!) keep their triple-locked pension (which is part of the old post-war social contract), Millenials get student debt, insecure employment with few rights, often can't even dream of ever owning their home and instead face a lifetime of getting reamed by private landlords, whilst growing up in a country plagued with austerity. And when they get to pensionable age they almost certainly won't have a decent occupational pension and will have to make do on whatever is left of the state pension by then.

All the stuff the current socially conservative (and also often Conservative as in politically) older cohort took for granted throughout their working lives, are being denied the younger generations, is it any wonder they look at the current political system, and particularly the Tories after twelve years of their rule, and decide this shit just isn't working for them?

Moreover, all this clutching of pearls about women with penises and whatnot, believe me, it just isn't even a thing for younger folks, they care far more about the planet burning up in their lifetime and wondering how on earth they'll ever be able to own even the most modest of homes whilst gaining employment that's moderately secure and affords them a half-decent lifestyle.

The Boomer generation, who actually benefited most from the structure and surety of the old post-war social contract (which both Tory and Labour governments broadly signed up to), the contract which easily allowed them to buy houses on average incomes, build up a reasonable amount of wealth (which of course they then want to protect), have now pulled up the ladder behind them and vote for Tory governments that deny the younger generations all the stuff they personally benefited from.

The research on this is pretty clear, and the old assumptions about what happens to folks in terms of their politics and social views as they age are failing. (This is of course, an entirely good thing.)
 

mack341

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The polls, graphs, surveys, and all the other research that's gone into this makes it very clear that Millenials are ageing differently to the generations before them, they are not becoming more socially conservative as they get older, and they are not tending towards the right wing. (Obviously it's too early to tell in many regards about 'Generation Z', but the indications at this stage are they're going to be a whole extra step towards left/liberal tendencies from Millenials.)

And it's not hard to see why, the old social contract has been stripped away from them, whilst current pensioners (often right wing and Brexity!) keep their triple-locked pension (which is part of the old post-war social contract), Millenials get student debt, insecure employment with few rights, often can't even dream of ever owning their home and instead face a lifetime of getting reamed by private landlords, whilst growing up in a country plagued with austerity. And when they get to pensionable age they almost certainly won't have a decent occupational pension and will have to make do on whatever is left of the state pension by then.

All the stuff the current socially conservative (and also often Conservative as in politically) older cohort took for granted throughout their working lives, are being denied the younger generations, is it any wonder they look at the current political system, and particularly the Tories after twelve years of their rule, and decide this shit just isn't working for them?

Moreover, all this clutching of pearls about women with penises and whatnot, believe me, it just isn't even a thing for younger folks, they care far more about the planet burning up in their lifetime and wondering how on earth they'll ever be able to own even the most modest of homes whilst gaining employment that's moderately secure and affords them a half-decent lifestyle.

The Boomer generation, who actually benefited most from the structure and surety of the old post-war social contract (which both Tory and Labour governments broadly signed up to), the contract which easily allowed them to buy houses on average incomes, build up a reasonable amount of wealth (which of course they then want to protect), have now pulled up the ladder behind them and vote for Tory governments that deny the younger generations all the stuff they personally benefited from.

The research on this is pretty clear, and the old assumptions about what happens to folks in terms of their politics and social views as they age are failing. (This is of course, an entirely good thing.)

So are you saying you'd like the post-war social contract back, I'm not entirely sure how or why it went [the reasons being valid or not] however I don't think it's as simple as: Tory governments that deny the younger generations all the stuff they personally benefited from.

If Labour are to succeed for the younger generations [on all those things you've listed, secure employment, half decent lifestyle etc...] where the recent tory govts have failed, then it will need more than a few things in the economy tweaked, surely?

Something I read tonight was that the high cost of energy is going to carry on until 2030, with the kind of prices we have now being normal and not going back down to 2019 levels, that's a massive challenge to overcome. If labour had a solution to that one issue, they'd be voted in tomorrow.
 

dunover

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The polls, graphs, surveys, and all the other research that's gone into this makes it very clear that Millenials are ageing differently to the generations before them, they are not becoming more socially conservative as they get older, and they are not tending towards the right wing. (Obviously it's too early to tell in many regards about 'Generation Z', but the indications at this stage are they're going to be a whole extra step towards left/liberal tendencies from Millenials.)

And it's not hard to see why, the old social contract has been stripped away from them, whilst current pensioners (often right wing and Brexity!) keep their triple-locked pension (which is part of the old post-war social contract), Millenials get student debt, insecure employment with few rights, often can't even dream of ever owning their home and instead face a lifetime of getting reamed by private landlords, whilst growing up in a country plagued with austerity. And when they get to pensionable age they almost certainly won't have a decent occupational pension and will have to make do on whatever is left of the state pension by then.

All the stuff the current socially conservative (and also often Conservative as in politically) older cohort took for granted throughout their working lives, are being denied the younger generations, is it any wonder they look at the current political system, and particularly the Tories after twelve years of their rule, and decide this shit just isn't working for them?

Moreover, all this clutching of pearls about women with penises and whatnot, believe me, it just isn't even a thing for younger folks, they care far more about the planet burning up in their lifetime and wondering how on earth they'll ever be able to own even the most modest of homes whilst gaining employment that's moderately secure and affords them a half-decent lifestyle.

The Boomer generation, who actually benefited most from the structure and surety of the old post-war social contract (which both Tory and Labour governments broadly signed up to), the contract which easily allowed them to buy houses on average incomes, build up a reasonable amount of wealth (which of course they then want to protect), have now pulled up the ladder behind them and vote for Tory governments that deny the younger generations all the stuff they personally benefited from.

The research on this is pretty clear, and the old assumptions about what happens to folks in terms of their politics and social views as they age are failing. (This is of course, an entirely good thing.)
The 'social contract' regarding housing is quite simply down to the fact demand has far outstripped supply due to one thing and one thing only - the massive poulation increase that successive governments of all colours have allowed to happen using various excuses to try and justify them abrogating responsibility. Some fools will say 'well build more' but we simply don't have room and there is a quite understandable reluctance to concrete over green land plus new housing for purchase will simply mirror the unaffordable levels of now. Accommodation is the biggest expense of any family over a lifetime and when this rockets, everything else shrinks accordingly.
 

ChopleyIOM

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The 'social contract' regarding housing is quite simply down to the fact demand has far outstripped supply due to one thing and one thing only - the massive poulation increase that successive governments of all colours have allowed to happen using various excuses to try and justify them abrogating responsibility. Some fools will say 'well build more' but we simply don't have room and there is a quite understandable reluctance to concrete over green land plus new housing for purchase will simply mirror the unaffordable levels of now. Accommodation is the biggest expense of any family over a lifetime and when this rockets, everything else shrinks accordingly.

We've done this before, with the stats to back it up, the UK isn't particularly densely populated by international standards, there is 'room' for more.

But putting that to one side, because we won't agree, what about all the other stuff Millenials and Gen-Z aren't getting that earlier generations did? Secure and stable employment, decently paid, backed by solid worker rights and ample benefits such as paid holidays and sick pay.

A well-funded and highly available public healthcare system they can rely on, the opportunity to go onto further education without going into huge amounts of debt, a sensible market for rented accommodation (that no longer exists because the Tories flogged the public housing stock off, most of which is now rented back out by private landlords at exorbitant rents).

(The argument about home ownership largely goes away if people could at least rent a half-decent property for a reasonable amount of money, the Tories literally voted down a bill in Parliament that demanded, rather unambitiously, that rented property should be 'fit for human habitation' -
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Don't forget Brexit, this was very much something that older people voted for, the young didn't want it, at all, they had it 'done' to them and they very much see it as a Tory project (which of course it was). Their ability to work and travel freely in the EU taken away from them, against their will, don't underestimate how much the young resent Brexit and blame the Tories for it. The Brexity types saw taking away freedom of movement from others as a win, the young saw it as their freedom being taken away. (Which of course it was.)

Climate change isn't on the radar for many old people (some of whom deny it exists, but either way figure they'll be dead before it fucks them anyway), but again, for the young, this is a massive hot-button issue and they see the Tories constantly play it down, deny it, and vote against measure after measure that would put the UK on a more sustainable energy footing going forward. (Labour do actually have some good policies here.)

That's just a starter for ten list, I mean, really, is it difficult to see how if you were born in the 1980s or later, there's a very good chance you're not going to be right wing? Moreover, these people equate 'social conservatism' with a system that served the older generations very well, but has done nothing more than fuck them over and leave them in shit, insecure jobs, piles of debt if they dared to go to university, and at the mercy of rip-off landlords who aren't even compelled to make their properties fit for human habitation because Tory MPs (many of whom are private landlords, go figure), voted the legislation down.

They look at the psychodrama of, for example, the Tory party leadership contest where the main desirable criteria seemed to be a willingness to beat up on trans people (look how quickly Grant Shapps saw himself out of the running for saying something actually sensible about it, and then later on in the campaign Penny Mordaunt as well), and they see absolutely nothing whatsoever that chimes with anything in their lives, and indeed find it actively repulsive.

You know what folks, I think we've cracked the mystery of the graphs shown above! Good job!

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ChopleyIOM

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mack341

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The rules, procedures, and understandings of the postwar social contract were designed for a world in which practical forces kept businesses anchored in geographical place, reinforcing the sense of obligation that many corporate leaders felt toward workers and communities. That being said, those arrangements were spectacularly successful in creating a broad, accessible, and secure middle class, and in bringing unprecedented transparency and fairness to the hazardous relations between individuals (whether customers, workers, neighbors, or shareholders) and corporations.

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^^ If true then it is precisely things like the EU that have made the social contract, or post war consensus as I've also seen it called, a thing of the past, capital can now move to wherever it can make the most profit. The companies that stick around then cannot compete [unless they receive help from their govts, like renault].

And also hence multinationals plonking their headquarters in low corporation tax places such as ireland or luxembourg, while they suck up millions of revenue from everywhere in europe.

The EU as a panacea for all the problems and difficulties of the less well off is a myth, in fact it made life worse as they had to wait in line more for access to essential public services, and compete for local jobs against an influx of new arrivals. [some willing to house share with another 12, and sending as much money home as possible]
 

ChopleyIOM

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I'm not quite sure when The Sun think they're going with this, 'Everything is absolutely crap, the country's fucked, Rishi will put it right'.

It'd maybe get some traction if the Tories hadn't been in power for twelve (now going into thirteen!) uninterrupted years at this point.

BORIS BOOSTERISM, that's what the UK needs, like the amazing Brexit he BOOSTED the country into and immediately lopped 5% off our GDP, forever. (Or until the mistake is corrected.)

This is the problem the Tories have now, there's no one else left to blame, it's the UK in ruins, and them having quite clearly been in the driver's seat all along, as we go into year thirteen of their disastrous rule. Alas for them they couldn't do what Thatcher did and sell off all the family silver to raise a pile of cash, because it turns out you can only sell all that shit once.

Anyway, happy new year, at least in another two years this shower of calamitously incompetent, corrupt and cruel clowns will be out the door.

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