Baptism by Fire - failed Tropica Casino - Rival Casino - cancelled BBF

[chayton]

I'm with whoever it was who said it would be interesting to know what kind of arrangement was reached. The whole situation seems odd - the casino says the player stiffed them for thousands, and yet they give her an extra unspecified amount anyhow. And on the other side it's just as bad, the player says that the casino is making unauthorized charges on her credit card and threatening her, and yet she accepts a token payment?

I suppose it doesn't matter, unfortunately no matter what the player did or didn't do, the representative of the casino should have taken the high road and the BBF might have gone without a hitch. On a brighter note, it seems as though this was an isolated incident, and maybe the group can try again in 6 months or so. In the meantime, perhaps it's time to hire some really mellow people to deal with the especially difficult customers.

Another thing that I found interesting about this whole thing is that I stumbled on to a website a few years back of some guy telling American players the way to 'win' at online casinos was to charge back your losses, and the steps to go about doing it. It seems like maybe this player found the same site.

 

[funnymunny]

I'm with whoever it was who said it would be interesting to know what kind of arrangement was reached...

...While we are deeply disappointed, I need to add that I resolved things with the OP myself. She sent in a thank you letter after paying a small settlement as a gesture of goodwill. I don't condone the manner in which this was handled and apologise once more that it happened in the first place...

Highlighted key point from Dieter's post. Hope this helps.

 

[rockycatt]

what does a las Vegas B&M casino do or handle a thief when caught red handed stealing from the games or the cashier?

can we draw a industry standard from this hypothetical but many times committed offense , can parameters be established

from that

just a single facet of the problem

 

[dunover]

Don't do it. It's not worth it.

 

[rockycatt]

Don't do it. It's not worth it.


View attachment 50437

sam may have got off easy

 

[suzecat]

Don't do it. It's not worth it.


View attachment 50437

This is funny!!!!

Maybe I have a tweaked sense of humor???

 

[dunover]

This is funny!!!!

Maybe I have a tweaked sense of humor???

Nah, you haven't. I guessed it'd raise a smile from one or two like-minded members...

 

[Larsenne]

The right thing

Hello members.

I think Casinomeister has done the right thing.

Casinos shall be treated like casinos treat their customers.

If you make a mistake as a player; play higher bet than allowed with a bonus by mistake, forgot you already have an account in a casino and by mistake opens a second one or brake any terms, the casino doesn't give you a little message that says
"hey,you have made a mistake here, think about that next time", no they close accounts, and refuses to pay, and just go by the terms whatsoerver.

There is not a question about "learning a lesson" that not includes that they avoid to pay the winnings.
It is all about money.

 

[jshort]

Maybe its because I've been on the online gaming scene for less than one year, but I'm a little surprised that this is such a big issue.

No mistake its an issue for sure, however theres so many issues that are already just accepted as being ok; ex. misleading or false marketing, spam, regulating agencies that don't regulate the casinos that have their stamp, casinos that automatically hand out deposit bonuses but don't mention the T&Cs etc.....These are generally accepted unethical practises. Yet despite this, a casino is BAD not for this, but because it talks trash / threatens a difficult blackmailing player.....Meh whatever!

Just my two cents

 

[jetset]

one question to ask yourselves '' what would u do if u soldan item to someone n they charged u back 4 it'. Not defending the casino as i ve never deposited at a rival brand but sometimes emotions take over when u hv been messed in a way that threatens ur livelihood as chargebacks canbe very costly to online casinos

The difference here is that the abuser was a company employee, representing his/her company, and we rightly should hold companies to a higher standard of behaviour when dealing with a client, whatever the circumstances...because that is the disciplined and professional way.

 

[vinylweatherman]

what does a las Vegas B&M casino do or handle a thief when caught red handed stealing from the games or the cashier?

can we draw a industry standard from this hypothetical but many times committed offense , can parameters be established

from that

just a single facet of the problem

In the old days, they were taken to a back room, had the crap beaten out of them by the heavies, money recovered, and dumped on the street. Now, it would be a case of calling in the police who would arrest them, take statements, and possibly press charges.

What Tropica did was the internet equivalent of the former, using extra judicial "heavies" to deal with the problem, which they call "a collection agency". The correct way would be to use the law, civil law if necessary. They could report them to the police in their own licencing jurisdiction, lodge their details on an industry wide anti fraud database so that as well as being banned from all Rival casinos, they would end up banned from many others. There may even be a way to issue a legitimate court summons that could be served on them, but that there would be one last chance to settle out of court amicably. This usually works for consumers when they are fighting a company that has so far refused to budge, so it should work for casinos when taking on all but the most hardcore fraudsters.

I suspect this "collection agency" was used because it was cheaper (perhaps paid by commission when they effect recovery, much like a bailiff) than having to pay lawyers fees, and possibly court fees, up front whether or not a settlement could be reached.

 

[mer3801]

I was absolutely disturbed to read the "conversations" between the two parties. It was absolutely disgusting and it actually turned my stomach to see the tactics that were being employed.

I can however understand the casinos frustration in feeling (probably knowing I guess), that there's not much recourse in getting their money back in situations such as these, and that adds to our frustration as USA players because in the end it's only going to push more of our options out of trusting US players... As has previously been mentioned. But to go to these lengths.. Is appalling.

I've made deposits with casholot casino, and I'll be quick to mention my dissatisfaction with their live support. They have been very rude from the first time I ever contacted them upon registration. (I'd say 80% of the time I finished speaking to them and had a very poor taste in my mouth afterwards) I understand there are language barriers at times with support, as they're based in different countries, however I've had them tell me I needed to read better (when I made no accusations or demands, I was simply asking about the 50% cash back for MasterCard transactions and didn't see the $50 deposit), and when initially inquiring about their "step 1-10" sign up bonuses, I felt like I was being accused of trying to cheat them (I didn't get a "free play" signup offer.. Was told "we don't offer those")

However.. As long as I don't have to deal with support, I have no problem playing in what seems to be a fast pay USA option. I've had a cashout pending from an accredited casino for 5 days (on authorized) and have yet to get a straight answer on when I'll see my withdrawal or western union update.

Hopefully tropics and its brands are able to change its customer service policies as a whole. It would be nice to have a good reliable gaming option that's accredited here.

 

[Nifty29]

In the old days, they were taken to a back room, had the crap beaten out of them by the heavies, money recovered, and dumped on the street. Now, it would be a case of calling in the police who would arrest them, take statements, and possibly press charges.

What Tropica did was the internet equivalent of the former, using extra judicial "heavies" to deal with the problem, which they call "a collection agency". The correct way would be to use the law, civil law if necessary. They could report them to the police in their own licencing jurisdiction, lodge their details on an industry wide anti fraud database so that as well as being banned from all Rival casinos, they would end up banned from many others. There may even be a way to issue a legitimate court summons that could be served on them, but that there would be one last chance to settle out of court amicably. This usually works for consumers when they are fighting a company that has so far refused to budge, so it should work for casinos when taking on all but the most hardcore fraudsters.

I suspect this "collection agency" was used because it was cheaper (perhaps paid by commission when they effect recovery, much like a bailiff) than having to pay lawyers fees, and possibly court fees, up front whether or not a settlement could be reached.

Bring back the old days! I bet it would stop a lot of bad debt.

Actually, many of the big licensed collection agencies ARE law firms/lawyers and they DO take a % of the debt. Wherever there's money, there's lawyers.

 

[petro]

In the old days, they were taken to a back room, had the crap beaten out of them by the heavies, money recovered, and dumped on the street.

Now they just ban people like card counters. And imo even that is wrong.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Bring back the old days! I bet it would stop a lot of bad debt.

Actually, many of the big licensed collection agencies ARE law firms/lawyers and they DO take a % of the debt. Wherever there's money, there's lawyers.

The problem with the old days was that often the "bad debt" was predatory and illegal. In effect, the poor consumer was being ripped off through the medium of contrived debt, often a debt that could never be paid off, much like the "loan shark" industry that thrived here for far too long before specific legal protections were granted to consumers. Even then, the loan sharks just became payday lenders and car clampers, and make a mint before the law caught up with them.

The best way to stop bad debt is not to lend the money in the first place unless the borrower clearly has the means to repay, and in the event of default, has the assets to seize legally to recover the money.

These collection agencies often don't work to the law, but try to recover debt where other means have failed, and where no legal route to recovery exists. They do not differentiate between the "won't pay" scammers and the genuine "can't pay" poor who can no longer make enough money to service their debt.

In the US, casinos take a gamble by taking card deposits in a manner that looks pretty dodgy from the outset, which makes it very easy for a dodgy player to convince their bank that the transactions as described on the statement are clearly bogus (such as $10,000 worth of bicycle parts from Dubai over the space of a month), and the result of their card being compromised and transactions being put through a fake merchant.

If deposits were taken in the UK in the same manner, it would make it easy even for UK players to operate such a scam. Thankfully, they don't, and even if you spent £10,000 in a month, if the bank saw it was at a casino they would be suspicious that the player had simply gotten in too deep, and was trying it on, so they would dig deeper rather than just nod through a chargeback.

It seems from a couple of other mentions as well as this case that this chargeback scam is becoming endemic in the US. It suggests that the proverbial genie is out of the bottle, and it's gathering pace as more and more players hear of it, how easy it is, and how it can work almost every time without repercussions. For some, it might be a choice from the outset, run the scam until they are listed on all the negative databases, banned by every US facing casino, and possibly even banned by the card company. They then "retire" on their windfall and don't really care that they can never again gamble online.

As well as ensuring casinos don't take the wrong approach, they need guidance on what "right approach" is deemed acceptable among the player community and those sites that offer accreditation or review points to casinos.

 

[hoff1985]

Had a good session again today at Tropica after a few bad ones... I really hope that even though this unacceptable case happened people will give them a chance because of 2 reasons.

1. RIVAL is a fantastic software. Sooo damn unique. Free Spin multiplier gets carried over to bonus round = One of the most exciting things i've experienced and it makes the slots so much more fun. And of course fast triggering bonus rounds. If you haven't experienced RIVAL do it. I guarantee you after a while you will love the software.

2. Tropica is a great place to play. I will not defend anyone for what happened, and we all know that this is unacceptable (although i wasn't shocked about the wording, as lots of those debt collectors or how you call them work the same way with using those pychological tricks), but when we forget this one case, this casino has proven so big to me the last few months that they're a great brand. Support answers always fast, and the 1-2 times i couldn't reach someone in live chat, i had an e-mail in my mailbox a couple of minutes later with an apology. Also the Rep is probably one of the best here in the forum. He answers pretty much all questions in a few minutes and he always supported me when i needed help. Last but not least, cashouts are fast, really fast. I never waited more than a few hours, even on the weekend.

I really hope that they will get a second chance after a while to get accredited, as they're in my opinion by far the best RIVAL casino out there.

This is the last post from me in this thread, i think everything is said

 

[The Viking]

Well i have not rased my view in this thread as i didnt think it would matter,
but i really do hope Bryan opens it up again and gives them another chance in the very near future,
as i belivie everybody deserves a 2nd chance.we all make mistakes and as a kid i was told you have
to make mistakes so you can learn from them
I have been a member of Tropica since the beginning and ever since Dieter came on board
i have had nothing but top notch support, not to mention one of the quickest payouts of all
the casinos here at Casinomeister.
gotta mention as well, as some of you know i lost my brother tragically last May
and without my knowledge Dieter paid for my flight ticket,
and as he said just from the kindness of his heart and to make it a lil easier for me.
and i gotta mention this is coming from me, not in any way was i asked to write this.
but when someone does an awesome gesture like that they cant be all bad now can they
i will carry on playing there as if nothing has happend as i still think they are
the best Rival casino out there.
well this is my opinion anyway as we are all entitled to i belivie

 

[gagamel]

Well i have not rased my view in this thread as i didnt think it would matter,
but i really do hope Bryan opens it up again and gives them another chance in the very near future,
as i belivie everybody deserves a 2nd chance.we all make mistakes and as a kid i was told you have
to make mistakes so you can learn from them
I have been a member of Tropica since the beginning and ever since Dieter came on board
i have had nothing but top notch support, not to mention one of the quickest payouts of all
the casinos here at Casinomeister.
gotta mention as well, as some of you know i lost my brother tragically last May
and without my knowledge Dieter paid for my flight ticket,
and as he said just from the kindness of his heart and to make it a lil easier for me.
and i gotta mention this is coming from me, not in any way was i asked to write this.
but when someone does an awesome gesture like that they cant be all bad now can they
i will carry on playing there as if nothing has happend as i still think they are
the best Rival casino out there.
well this is my opinion anyway as we are all entitled to i belivie

I had a lot of PM`s with Dieter as well and I can say that Viking is totally right.

Dieter is an outstanding person and casino manager. If you play with his casinos and you are not a fraudster you have the best playtime.

I really hope they will have a second BBF as soon as possible. And always remember, there are a lot of satisfied customers here and only one player was able to kill the BBF.

I`m sure that in the future the communication will be more professional

All the best to Dieter and the Refilliate Group.

And of course I play more than 95% with them

 

[aceking123]

well its a shame really not alot to say on the subject that hasn't been covered , i shall say after being truely burnt via orange games a while ago , i have only one account with any rival software & its this place although i dont play often & never get a good run i do however still play here , there no doubt the best rival casino going with ease ) so i shall carry on playing here as i feel confident that i'm not going to get any hassle & hope they do get a second chance , good luck guys !

 

[hoff1985]

I have to strongly agree with that statement. Dieter is not just a very active Rep you also feel that he's a great guy. The way he communicates and how i can describe him after those few messages is really incredible.

He's a great man and i have no doubt that he will do everything to deliver the best he can. I have no intention to play any other RIVAL casino for the future as i feel very happy there. If you ever want to give a RIVAL casino a try, this is the right one. And once again, i'm not an affiliate and i'm not connected to any casino. But i think Tropica deserves some good feedback.

I had a lot of PM`s with Dieter as well and I can say that Viking is totally right.

Dieter is an outstanding person and casino manager. If you play with his casinos and you are not a fraudster you have the best playtime.

I really hope they will have a second BBF as soon as possible. And always remember, there are a lot of satisfied customers here and only one player was able to kill the BBF.

I`m sure that in the future the communication will be more professional

All the best to Dieter and the Refilliate Group.

And of course I play more than 95% with them

 

[michielm1]

casino should only take debitcards and e wallets.
only pay with money you can pay. and everything you must write and type yourself, so no cargebacks.

 

[nisosbar]

I have to agree with those who say Dieter tries very hard. Really no two ways about it - he goes above and beyond, IMHO.

The objectionable language and threatened tactics which prompted the failure really are unacceptable, BUT if, after a period of time, Casinomeister decided to give Dieter another chance, I think that would be very fair, and particularly in light of some of the other groups who have been given not just second, but third and fourth, chances. It's clear there is a substantial amount of positive goodwill that this group has earned.

Obviously, CM can do whatever he wants, just saying, that's my honest feeling about this. Peace.

 

[paul7388]

Never commented on this but thought I would before it closes.

Personally I do not play at Rival casinos for various reasons. But saw this Baptism failed because of the threatening letters over chargebacks, Whilst I agree its unacceptable I must say its just the way it goes. Living in UK there are more laws etc. about debt collecting. Sorry but even here if you default on debts and get passed to debt collectors the letters they send can be very threatening and intimidating.

I know of several people that have received letters from Debt Collection Agencies that are threatening and basically illegal. Also these companies feel it is okay to call the debtor constantly at home and at work which they legally can not do. Its not right but its just the way these companies seem to act. They will try any means to get the money owed.

But as for this group of casinos failing. All I can say is that over the years Rival has had a very bad reputation. Never thought I would see the day that a group of Rival casinos would show up and be completely different from the normal.

By all accounts they seem to be really fast payers, faster than many of the accredited casinos. The Rep for them is very active here and tho I have not dealt with him personally , from the other members comments he seems to be a genuinely good guy who goes out of his way to help.

There has also been several posts about members not getting paid by other Rival casinos not connected to this group. Any other Rep on this forum would just say sorry its nothing to do with my casinos. But no, Dieter tells them he will contact Rival and see what can be done and next thing you know these players are getting their money that is owed. That's one of the things that separate this group and their Rep from the rest.

But in the end I know they seriously broke the rules in that one case. I just hope that one day they get their second chance. Looking at list of accredited casinos theirs a few that you would say you never see a Rep on here or they also have faults. I guess its easy to say that's because there have been no complaints about the casinos so no need for Rep to intervene. But its also true that up till the failure of this Baptism there were never really any serious complaints about this group. And for a Rival group that's really truly amazing.

 

[hoff1985]

I mean on some point CM needs to let them try again... There are casinos that went downhill big time, but new management allowed them to try again here, so there's no reason to not let them try again on some point.

Never commented on this but thought I would before it closes.

Personally I do not play at Rival casinos for various reasons. But saw this Baptism failed because of the threatening letters over chargebacks, Whilst I agree its unacceptable I must say its just the way it goes. Living in UK there are more laws etc. about debt collecting. Sorry but even here if you default on debts and get passed to debt collectors the letters they send can be very threatening and intimidating.

I know of several people that have received letters from Debt Collection Agencies that are threatening and basically illegal. Also these companies feel it is okay to call the debtor constantly at home and at work which they legally can not do. Its not right but its just the way these companies seem to act. They will try any means to get the money owed.

But as for this group of casinos failing. All I can say is that over the years Rival has had a very bad reputation. Never thought I would see the day that a group of Rival casinos would show up and be completely different from the normal.

By all accounts they seem to be really fast payers, faster than many of the accredited casinos. The Rep for them is very active here and tho I have not dealt with him personally , from the other members comments he seems to be a genuinely good guy who goes out of his way to help.

There has also been several posts about members not getting paid by other Rival casinos not connected to this group. Any other Rep on this forum would just say sorry its nothing to do with my casinos. But no, Dieter tells them he will contact Rival and see what can be done and next thing you know these players are getting their money that is owed. That's one of the things that separate this group and their Rep from the rest.

But in the end I know they seriously broke the rules in that one case. I just hope that one day they get their second chance. Looking at list of accredited casinos theirs a few that you would say you never see a Rep on here or they also have faults. I guess its easy to say that's because there have been no complaints about the casinos so no need for Rep to intervene. But its also true that up till the failure of this Baptism there were never really any serious complaints about this group. And for a Rival group that's really truly amazing.

 

[Tirilej]

I mean on some point CM needs to let them try again... There are casinos that went downhill big time, but new management allowed them to try again here, so there's no reason to not let them try again on some point.

I have no doubt that Bryan will let them try again, but my guess is that we have to be patient.
They know that what happened was wrong and that changes have to be made.
They are at least still here and that is for me the most important thing.

There are a lot of casinos here that are not accredited and that also are active. They just have to keep on being one of them again for a while longer. That's not a bad thing, and I'm happy that I have a group of Rival that I trust again