Baptism by Fire - failed Tropica Casino - Rival Casino - cancelled BBF

[Cleveland]

I don't think anyone is questioning CM's efforts at being fair and balanced.

But I am saying I think a company deserves a way to fix a problem before being shunned. If there isn't a history of this sort of thing happening then I feel one employee shouldn't be the reason why a company is brought off track. So once again maybe I'm not understanding what happened. I don't really feel like going back and reading through the thread, but I'm getting the impression that this must be company policy to behave this way?? If that's so then I understand the canceling of the BBF.

I feel it's the same as that fast food worker (can't remember if it was McDonald's or KFC??) that kicked a customer out of the store, or the one who cursed (cussed? sp?) at a customer. All of a sudden the fast food chain became the big bad wolf before being allowed to address the issue.

All that being said isn't this the purpose of the BBF? Casino is allowed to change things that needs to be changed? Especially if this isn't their normal business practice, and they have a great track record.

^ Sorry for this mess of a post, but I'm trying to eat my Tacos and watched chopped on demand, while typing.

 

[suzecat]

If I am wrong about this a mod will set it straight.

Failing the BBF can be fixed if a casino chooses to do so. Once corrected and after a period of time the BBF can be restarted. See it is a very fair process, hence the name Baptism by Fire.

The purpose of a BBF is to discover problem areas, bring them to management's attention and let them either correct the problem or ignore it. Their choice and CM's choice as well.

Accreditation is serious stuff and this forum is accountable for CM's decisions. As has been said many times before, CM does not take these decisions lightly. The members should take them seriously as well.

When Bryan is not doing the difficult Casinomeister stuff, he is a very funny and easy going guy! Go to London next year at Waxy's and see for yourself. You'll have a blast!

 

[gagamel]

It`s a little bit sad that we have a good discussion in this thread after Bryan ended the BBF and not before.

Look at the posts in the last weeks. WR too high, bonus not cashable, max. cashout etc.

The casino heard the complaints and created a new fair bonus.

I don`t want to discuss Bryan`s decision.

And I don`t want to say that Tropica took the right way. But maybe there was an employee who was totally pissed or Samantha has a longer story which we don`t know.

I hope the casino will get a second chance, because they are "Second to none".

 

[secret2]

It`s a little bit sad that we have a good discussion in this thread after Bryan ended the BBF and not before.

Look at the posts in the last weeks. WR too high, bonus not cashable, max. cashout etc.

The casino heard the complaints and created a new fair bonus.

I don`t want to discuss Bryan`s decision.

And I don`t want to say that Tropica took the right way. But maybe there was an employee who was totally pissed or Samantha has a longer story which we don`t know.

I hope the casino will get a second chance, because they are "Second to none".

I just don't think that a deposit with a bonus should have any max cash-outs.

I like the casino but refuse to play any deposit bonuses with max cash-outs such as theirs (5 or 6 times deposit??)

If they are able to get back in the game again, I will play and, yes, it is sad that this casino has failed the BBF because of the incredibly nasty response from one casino employee but I will never take a deposit bonus with restrictions of cash-out ,as the currently have.

I hope that they can step back up again.

Dieter has been very helpful to me regarding any issues I have had.

It's a shame.

 

[gagamel]

For example Paddy Power gives a 100% bonus to me every 2 or 3 month. It`s a multimillion $ industry. Bonus is cashable and there are no caps on my bets and cashouts.

Most RIVAL casinos are not that big. There is another business model. Higher bonuses with restrictions. If you are lucky RIVAL is not good with this sort of bonus, but if you are unlucky (and the most players are in this mode) you have a longer playtime . I had a lot of cashouts with these capped binuses and was really happy. Deposit 100 with a 300% bonus and your WR are 35X and max cashout is 6X your bonus.

I enjoy RIVAL and Refilliates Group because the software is what I want and the CS from this group is really good

 

[mclee321]

Seriously people, its not ok.

They employed people/companies using thuggish loan-shark tactics.

1. They knew about the methods being used.
or
2. Didn't know or give a shite how people representing them behaved.

I don't know a single legit company that would do either.

(not pointing to any poster in particular) Claiming "oh no, its fine because their bonuses are good, accredit them when they stop trying to exhort money", does a disservice to what this site is about.

 

[petro]

That's a bit strong for me mclee321 but I generally agree.

 

[Cleveland]

Seriously people, its not ok.

They employed people/companies using thuggish loan-shark tactics.

1. They knew about the methods being used.
or
2. Didn't know or give a shite how people representing them behaved.

I don't know a single legit company that would do either.

(not pointing to any poster in particular) Claiming "oh no, its fine because their bonuses are good, accredit them when they stop trying to exhort money", does a disservice to what this site is about.

Which brings me back to my point (the highlighted text above). How do we know that to be true? Just simply based on the fact that an employee did this or because it's big business so by default clearly they are wrong? Even in your post you edited some of the language, not saying you were wrong in whatever you said, but I am saying I understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of the "that person did that, so you're all guilty."

Once again, if they knew and this is normal business practice I agree with your post. But perhaps, just perhaps maybe they didn't know. I can tell you that my higher ups do NOT know everything I do, have done, will do, at work. Doesn't mean they don't care (*sigh* well they probably don't but that's a different thread).

Edit: My main point has been addressed by Suzecat. They have a means for fixing this incident which is what matters, so I won't be going back and forth any more on the topic I guess.

 

[mclee321]

If this behavior had been attributed to say a virtual casino property, or pamper, or another rogue, the outrage here would have been all consuming.

However, Tropica get a bunch of apologists wanting a pass? Unreal.

Someone at the top authorized those 'collections', you think that kind of decision is made by the janitor?

 

[Cleveland]

If this behavior had been attributed to say a virtual casino property, or pamper, or another rogue, the outrage here would have been all consuming.

However, Tropica get a bunch of apologists wanting a pass? Unreal.

Someone at the top authorized those 'collections', you think that kind of decision is made by the janitor?

*sigh* I said I was done but one more go. Virtual casinos have a HISTORY of this type of behavior. It's clear that Tropica doesn't. I'll say it again who here at casinomeister would you consider Bryan's number two? If that person was to post something vulgar does that now mean Bryan and casinomeister (site) should be shunned? The answer is obvious. But of course you refuse to see it. You add history (track record) + policies (can replace with intent) + incident to begin to determine level of punishment. <~~~~edit: # 2: Which I agree with now as Suzecat pointed out this can be fixed over time.

edit: Nevermind I just don't really care all that much seeing as I don't even play there. Just figured the obvious should be pointed out but clearly it's not so obvious for some. Yes the entire company is evil and should have known. No way they couldn't have known. There we agree. End of discussion I guess.

 

[mclee321]

I apologise for being so strident Cleveland. But Bryan and Max don't handle your money, nor copies of your most private and sensitive documents. Casinos have to be held to the same standard as banks. And besides, they would never be such douchbags.

I ask you to re-read the GG thread one more time

Tropica claim the emails came from a third party, but the first email, containing unethical, illegal threats contains "We will use a collection agency". So who was this from?

Duwayne the Tropica rep, who must of been high at the time, was on the verge of posting someones credit card details ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Sweet Jesus.

Dieter then defended this with "Duwayne handled the matter professionally under the circumstances"

It's not just one person.

Here's the issue. Rival make mistakes, lots of them. Someone here could wrongly end up on the 'professionalism' show above.

 

[Refilliates Casinos]

I apologise for being so strident Cleveland. But Bryan and Max don't handle your money, nor copies of your most private and sensitive documents. Casinos have to be held to the same standard as banks. And besides, they would never be such douchbags.

I ask you to re-read the GG thread one more time

Tropica claim the emails came from a third party, but the first email, containing unethical, illegal threats contains "We will use a collection agency". So who was this from?

Duwayne the Tropica rep, who must of been high at the time, was on the verge of posting someones credit card details ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Sweet Jesus.

Dieter then defended this with "Duwayne handled the matter professionally under the circumstances"

It's not just one person.

Here's the issue. Rival make mistakes, lots of them. Someone here could wrongly end up on the 'professionalism' show above.

Hi,

I have been holding off on posting out of respect, pending Bryan's decision. I do however feel your post needs to be addressed.

To clarify: She was saying she never deposited here and we were saying that we had copies of her cards and verification documents that we could post to prove she played here (if she did not retract her false post). For what it's worth, we could have posted the cards without showing the card number and the verification without showing her personal details. We were simply trying to say that we could prove that she did play here and had even signed for her deposits.

What you need to realise, is that not only did she chargeback, she then tried to ruin us in a blackmail attempt. I.e. a double bill when we had done nothing wrong to deserve even the CB.

If you saw what was happening behind the scenes, you would also agree that Duwayne handled it professionally under the circumstances. She has done us considerable harm, both financially and to our reputation and we now need to deal with that.

While we are deeply disappointed, I need to add that I resolved things with the OP myself. She sent in a thank you letter after paying a small settlement as a gesture of goodwill. I don't condone the manner in which this was handled and apologise once more that it happened in the first place.

Thank you to the members here who support us and for those who are trying to keep an open mind while reading through all of this. We will now wait for Bryan's conclusion and take it from there. If Bryan says no, then we will gladly respect his decision.

Thank you,
Dieter

 

[Cleveland]

I apologise for being so strident Cleveland. But Bryan and Max don't handle your money, nor copies of your most private and sensitive documents. Casinos have to be held to the same standard as banks. And besides, they would never be such douchbags.

I ask you to re-read the GG thread one more time

No apologizes necessary. I do wish you would have put the definition of strident in with your post. I had to look it up

I'm sure I'll re-read everything at a later date. Despite my willingness to go back and forth, I'm actually feeling quite lazy right now, but I'm sure I will re-read later.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi,

I have been holding off on posting out of respect, pending Bryan's decision. I do however feel your post needs to be addressed.

To clarify: She was saying she never deposited here and we were saying that we had copies of her cards and verification documents that we could post to prove she played here (if she did not retract her false post). For what it's worth, we could have posted the cards without showing the card number and the verification without showing her personal details. We were simply trying to say that we could prove that she did play here and had even signed for her deposits.

What you need to realise, is that not only did she chargeback, she then tried to ruin us in a blackmail attempt. I.e. a double bill when we had done nothing wrong to deserve even the CB.

If you saw what was happening behind the scenes, you would also agree that Duwayne handled it professionally under the circumstances. She has done us considerable harm, both financially and to our reputation and we now need to deal with that.

While we are deeply disappointed, I need to add that I resolved things with the OP myself. She sent in a thank you letter after paying a small settlement as a gesture of goodwill. I don't condone the manner in which this was handled and apologise once more that it happened in the first place.

Thank you to the members here who support us and for those who are trying to keep an open mind while reading through all of this. We will now wait for Bryan's conclusion and take it from there. If Bryan says no, then we will gladly respect his decision.

Thank you,
Dieter

It's like a player saying "I could always charge back if you refuse to negotiate". Posting a players' documents, even suggesting that there are circumstances in which you might consider it, is a massive breach of trust, even if you are bluffing, or would edit out personally identifying information.

A better approach would be to say that you would be prepared to show them to the webmaster of the site to show that her post was libellous, in the expectation that the webmaster would then post that they had seen them, and was happy that they were evidence that the poster was lying. You could then ask that the post be removed due to it being libellous, and the webmaster would be wise to comply because once they had been shown the proof, they would be party to the libel if they let the post stand.

Given that it all seems to have ended amicably, it looks like this was not a case of a deliberate and planned attempt to defraud the casino from the outset, but a player that got in far too deep and then panicked because they were faced with having to explain where all the money went, perhaps to her partner or parents. She grasped the simplest solution, pretend it wasn't her and that someone hacked her card, hoping this would be an end to it. Since it wasn't, she suddenly found herself facing a mobster like shakedown, which must have made her panic even more. A hardened fraudster would have taken this in their stride, having done this before and known that much of it was hot air and bluster, and that no police would be round to arrest them, nor details of their cards given out in an attempt to "ruin them". Of all the chargeback frauds you have encountered, only this one has gone public in such an explosive manner. Most fraudsters know that if they get caught they should keep quiet and move on to the next victim. Any publicity only draws the attention of other operators to them and what they have been up to. Here, you see that some will complain, but will disappear rather than PAB or engage with a rep once they get called out.

I wonder how this incident would have worked out had she chosen this forum rather than the other one to launch her complaint.

 

[rena35]

Well i for one would like to see Tropica continue on. I feel the issue was resolved and even though i agree it could have been handled differently. Some consideration should also be given to the fact they were dealing with a basket case that was trying to ruin them. Tropica has been a stand up casino and i would not mind playing there, Then again i do not charge back. I win some lose most.

 

[gagamel]

This case is unique. The BBF was cancelled because of an issue in another forum. And it was not cancelled because the casino made a mistake to an honest player. No, they were pushed out because they defended thereselfs.

The wording was bad that`s for sure.

But it is just one case in five years. All other issues with Tropica came out in a way that fraud was the intention to come here or to other forums. If there was a mistake from the casino the issue was sorted out in no time.

I don`t like all these a**holes who believe they can make quick money with blackmailing a casino. And I understand that a casino employee
can loose his nerves after a long day talking to i***ts.

And if I would do it the way Samantha has done it I have to say: Well I`m a piece of crap and I deserve to be handled like crap.

Maybe I`m paranoid but since Silva029 was kicked out of the forum I`m sure that everyone who has a problem to understand actions of a a solid group has some interest in bad behaviour.

 

[coxwel]

And if I would do it the way Samantha has done it I have to say: Well I`m a piece of crap and I deserve to be handled like crap.

I couldn´t agree less..

Iam not taking sides here but i have to say what i feel reading this as it upsets me, i see that fraud and blackmailing is a serious and harmful issue for operators and they have to set certain measures and procesudes to deal with it, sure. But if any "professional" serious business that wants to be trusted by customers with their money and case sensitive documents talks to its own customers (or even fraudsters) in that unprofessional, imo disgraceful way, it was only Bryans responsibility to cancel the BFF, for me this is like they crossed a line with this incident , which now becoming public (which hasnt been intended and now trying to talk it small), and saying this wanst us it was some third parties WE hired is a cheap excuse, sorry.

Nothing against Tropica reputaion build here , i played there little in the past no issues, also i liked them for beeing active here on board and beeing reputable which is not the norm for rival outfits. I dont question that in any way, and many of you seem to play there often and now like feel a need to defend them. What´s the problem here ist that such business practise is not to excuse, even if they were defrauded by millions of $. I believe this is not the usual way of handling this kind of incidents and it just would make me scared to trust these guys with my money and documents. You see what happens if they get angry, maybe next time this happens to you?

Also it wouldnt be a valid excuse to claim that the player was a notorious liar or fraudster. This might be, but is the answer to go down on the same level of speech and behaviour and and answer this with even threats? can´t be serious..

Its not acceptable in my opinion that some people here post things like: ahh shes a fraudster, she deserves no better. You go down a dangerous path, where in the end you might be no slice better than the people you bash on. Think about that. No murder deserves the death penalty either, its just inhuman, stupid and just causes more pain.Nothing gets better in the end only the baser human instincts get served.

To get it right here, i see the hassle tropica had/has to deal with crap like this, but i also think in the internet nowdays this is nothing out of the blue, they should know the problem and know more professional ways to deal with it. The way they did, now they look as some bunch of guys i wouldnt trust and also shows how they can flip if youre not the loyal depositor to them but having trouble. So dont let yourself be fooled so easy, only because a casino gives you nice bonuses or pays fast it doesnt mean its run by proper people with ethics.

I dont mean to speak them off any ethics, cant judge it as it would be unfair, so no offense to tropica. I just wanted to explain why i think Bryans decision was the only one in place and he did the right thing. Such behaviour cannot be tolerated, excused, discussed in any way. its just unacceptable and a big shame.


cheers
coxwel

 

[cpdnd31]

reading through this thread the key points I have noticed are as follows"

Tropica had a player who did charge backs. When they approached her about it she tried to blackmail them. Now using this excuse they talked to her in a way that no one should be talked to. However they did handle and correct the situation with her so case closed.

Damage done is reputation, trust issues and the fact if a situation ever arose would we be treated as said player.

I am not saying the way they handled this was correct in any means- if someone talked to me or mine in that manner I would have been on a flight overseas to knock on that persons door. But Deiter did settle with this person. He also has said we handled it wrong. Now could this be a case of they have learned their lesson and lets move on?

If a player tried to blackmail a casino on this forum they are banned is this why the player did it at another forum?

My suggestion if i may would be to start the baptism by fire all over again. Make Tropica prove without a doubt that they have changed.

They were doing very well before this happened I don't like how it was handled but they did handle it at least.

 

[Simmo!]

*sigh* I said I was done but one more go. Virtual casinos have a HISTORY of this type of behavior. It's clear that Tropica doesn't. I'll say it again who here at casinomeister would you consider Bryan's number two? If that person was to post something vulgar does that now mean Bryan and casinomeister (site) should be shunned? The answer is obvious. But of course you refuse to see it. You add history (track record) + policies (can replace with intent) + incident to begin to determine level of punishment. <~~~~edit: # 2: Which I agree with now as Suzecat pointed out this can be fixed over time.

edit: Nevermind I just don't really care all that much seeing as I don't even play there. Just figured the obvious should be pointed out but clearly it's not so obvious for some. Yes the entire company is evil and should have known. No way they couldn't have known. There we agree. End of discussion I guess.

Just a point I'd like to raise Cleveland because I think you might possibly be overlooking something. Cancelling the BBF isn't about shunning or stopping players playing at Tropica: it is about Casinomeiser's responsibility to it's membership. Thus, it boils down to one simple question: can Casinomeister recommend a site that has acted in the way it has?

Casinomeister isn't saying "don't play there". All Casinomeister is doing by cancelling the BBF is making players aware of the situation so players can't make up their own minds if it is a suitable venue for them. They have otherwise made a good impression so each to their own...if you feel comfortable with the way they handle issues then that is your choice.

 

[Cleveland]

Just a point I'd like to raise Cleveland because I think you might possibly be overlooking something. Cancelling the BBF isn't about shunning or stopping players playing at Tropica: it is about Casinomeiser's responsibility to it's membership. Thus, it boils down to one simple question: can Casinomeister recommend a site that has acted in the way it has?

Casinomeister isn't saying "don't play there". All Casinomeister is doing by cancelling the BBF is making players aware of the situation so players can't make up their own minds if it is a suitable venue for them. They have otherwise made a good impression so each to their own...if you feel comfortable with the way they handle issues then that is your choice.

Agree with points made. And no I'm not just too tired to throw out a rebuttal, I actually agree.

 

[jetset]

No matter how it is subsequently spinned, or the provocation that motivated it, the threat of disclosing personal information is unacceptable and unprofessional any way you cut it....especially in an internet industry where trust is so important.

And abusing a client is always going to be risky and, again, unprofessional.

Blaming the disastrous mistakes made here on the employee doesn't always cut it, either. If they have not already done so, management may want to look up a legal principle on responsibility called "vicarious liability" which may give pause for thought in future.

I suspect the casino has already paid a high reputational price, and hopefully management has learned a valuable if painful lesson here, but I don't see that Casinomeister can rescind his decision, at least not immediately, despite the "settlement" Dieter reports.

Perhaps the BBF could be restarted after a cooling off period in which no further major complaints in a similar vein surface?

Note: Vicarious liability can be applied in situations where someone is held responsible for the actions or omissions of another person. In the workplace, for example, an employer can be liable for the acts or omissions of employees, provided it can be shown that these took place in the course of the employment. Such acts can include bullying, harassment and even, i.m.o., the unwarranted breach of a person's privacy.

 

[Cleveland]

Note: Vicarious liability can be applied in situations where someone is held responsible for the actions or omissions of another person. In the workplace, for example, an employer can be liable for the acts or omissions of employees, provided it can be shown that these took place in the course of the employment. Such acts can include bullying, harassment and even, i.m.o., the unwarranted breach of a person's privacy.

Although I agree with much of what has recently been said and I think the back and forth has come to an end, I will say that this portion of what you said is hard for many to apply fairly and justly. We have a bad habit of passing blame when we do something wrong (not me, I always admit fault....ask my wife :Angel, and we have a bad habit of not holding the person at fault accountable for their actions. Our criminal justice system should have taught that lesson by now.

On a side note, while I'm rambling. Many times in a lawsuit it's not about holding that particular party at fault responsible for their actions. That person can lose their job and all their possessions but often that isn't enough because people are after the person with the bigger wallet. If a person truly cared about justice that person being punished would be enough. Now I'm not talking about a clear case of improper training, a lack of training, turning a blind eye (in your bullying example), or simply poor policies, I'm talking about incidents in which the organization truly had no control over. Simply saying "well he worked for you," doesn't cut it with me.

Now I'm not saying this is the case in this incident, I was pointing out......well we all should know now what I was pointing out and asking. That part is settled.

 

[asadzareef89]

one question to ask yourselves '' what would u do if u soldan item to someone n they charged u back 4 it'. Not defending the casino as i ve never deposited at a rival brand but sometimes emotions take over when u hv been messed in a way that threatens ur livelihood as chargebacks canbe very costly to online casinos

 

[shanetospin]

That was one of the worst things I have ever seen a casino do, and by far the worst that I have ever seen a customer spoken to like that. Absolutely shocking behaviour, regardless of whether she was wrong by doing charge backs.

I can however see where the casino is coming from, as this sort of thing regarding charges backs are an expensive issue for casinos, however to condone such behaviour through responses and collection agencies that I have just seen would be unacceptable, and by not acting on it Casinomiester would essentially be condoning it. Therefore I agree that they should not be in the BBF and to be honest are lucky that they are not in the rogue IMO. Although I do not play at this group I really hope they learn from this mistake because everyone deserves a chance to put right a wrong!

 

[asadzareef89]

Bottom line 4 me is the person was a fraudster n i guess the casino used scare tactics, as it was a fraudster i have no sympathy cuz had it been a new/small casino operation it would have been very close to disaster. I puf myself in casino's place. Grnted thy cud hve usd more professional language but judge them on real player experiences not some fraudster.I have seen the rep in forum helping genuine players n actually addressing their problems in record time. If im not wrong they even helped a player from different group of rival casino via rival. I find it hard to see such criticism based on the language used against a fraudster

 

[chayton]

I'm with whoever it was who said it would be interesting to know what kind of arrangement was reached. The whole situation seems odd - the casino says the player stiffed them for thousands, and yet they give her an extra unspecified amount anyhow. And on the other side it's just as bad, the player says that the casino is making unauthorized charges on her credit card and threatening her, and yet she accepts a token payment?

I suppose it doesn't matter, unfortunately no matter what the player did or didn't do, the representative of the casino should have taken the high road and the BBF might have gone without a hitch. On a brighter note, it seems as though this was an isolated incident, and maybe the group can try again in 6 months or so. In the meantime, perhaps it's time to hire some really mellow people to deal with the especially difficult customers.

Another thing that I found interesting about this whole thing is that I stumbled on to a website a few years back of some guy telling American players the way to 'win' at online casinos was to charge back your losses, and the steps to go about doing it. It seems like maybe this player found the same site.

 

[funnymunny]

I'm with whoever it was who said it would be interesting to know what kind of arrangement was reached...

...While we are deeply disappointed, I need to add that I resolved things with the OP myself. She sent in a thank you letter after paying a small settlement as a gesture of goodwill. I don't condone the manner in which this was handled and apologise once more that it happened in the first place...

Highlighted key point from Dieter's post. Hope this helps.

 

[rockycatt]

what does a las Vegas B&M casino do or handle a thief when caught red handed stealing from the games or the cashier?

can we draw a industry standard from this hypothetical but many times committed offense , can parameters be established

from that

just a single facet of the problem

 

[dunover]

Don't do it. It's not worth it.

 

[rockycatt]

Don't do it. It's not worth it.


View attachment 50437

sam may have got off easy

 

[suzecat]

Don't do it. It's not worth it.


View attachment 50437

This is funny!!!!

Maybe I have a tweaked sense of humor???

 

[dunover]

This is funny!!!!

Maybe I have a tweaked sense of humor???

Nah, you haven't. I guessed it'd raise a smile from one or two like-minded members...

 

[Larsenne]

The right thing

Hello members.

I think Casinomeister has done the right thing.

Casinos shall be treated like casinos treat their customers.

If you make a mistake as a player; play higher bet than allowed with a bonus by mistake, forgot you already have an account in a casino and by mistake opens a second one or brake any terms, the casino doesn't give you a little message that says
"hey,you have made a mistake here, think about that next time", no they close accounts, and refuses to pay, and just go by the terms whatsoerver.

There is not a question about "learning a lesson" that not includes that they avoid to pay the winnings.
It is all about money.

 

[jshort]

Maybe its because I've been on the online gaming scene for less than one year, but I'm a little surprised that this is such a big issue.

No mistake its an issue for sure, however theres so many issues that are already just accepted as being ok; ex. misleading or false marketing, spam, regulating agencies that don't regulate the casinos that have their stamp, casinos that automatically hand out deposit bonuses but don't mention the T&Cs etc.....These are generally accepted unethical practises. Yet despite this, a casino is BAD not for this, but because it talks trash / threatens a difficult blackmailing player.....Meh whatever!

Just my two cents

 

[jetset]

one question to ask yourselves '' what would u do if u soldan item to someone n they charged u back 4 it'. Not defending the casino as i ve never deposited at a rival brand but sometimes emotions take over when u hv been messed in a way that threatens ur livelihood as chargebacks canbe very costly to online casinos

The difference here is that the abuser was a company employee, representing his/her company, and we rightly should hold companies to a higher standard of behaviour when dealing with a client, whatever the circumstances...because that is the disciplined and professional way.

 

[vinylweatherman]

what does a las Vegas B&M casino do or handle a thief when caught red handed stealing from the games or the cashier?

can we draw a industry standard from this hypothetical but many times committed offense , can parameters be established

from that

just a single facet of the problem

In the old days, they were taken to a back room, had the crap beaten out of them by the heavies, money recovered, and dumped on the street. Now, it would be a case of calling in the police who would arrest them, take statements, and possibly press charges.

What Tropica did was the internet equivalent of the former, using extra judicial "heavies" to deal with the problem, which they call "a collection agency". The correct way would be to use the law, civil law if necessary. They could report them to the police in their own licencing jurisdiction, lodge their details on an industry wide anti fraud database so that as well as being banned from all Rival casinos, they would end up banned from many others. There may even be a way to issue a legitimate court summons that could be served on them, but that there would be one last chance to settle out of court amicably. This usually works for consumers when they are fighting a company that has so far refused to budge, so it should work for casinos when taking on all but the most hardcore fraudsters.

I suspect this "collection agency" was used because it was cheaper (perhaps paid by commission when they effect recovery, much like a bailiff) than having to pay lawyers fees, and possibly court fees, up front whether or not a settlement could be reached.

 

[mer3801]

I was absolutely disturbed to read the "conversations" between the two parties. It was absolutely disgusting and it actually turned my stomach to see the tactics that were being employed.

I can however understand the casinos frustration in feeling (probably knowing I guess), that there's not much recourse in getting their money back in situations such as these, and that adds to our frustration as USA players because in the end it's only going to push more of our options out of trusting US players... As has previously been mentioned. But to go to these lengths.. Is appalling.

I've made deposits with casholot casino, and I'll be quick to mention my dissatisfaction with their live support. They have been very rude from the first time I ever contacted them upon registration. (I'd say 80% of the time I finished speaking to them and had a very poor taste in my mouth afterwards) I understand there are language barriers at times with support, as they're based in different countries, however I've had them tell me I needed to read better (when I made no accusations or demands, I was simply asking about the 50% cash back for MasterCard transactions and didn't see the $50 deposit), and when initially inquiring about their "step 1-10" sign up bonuses, I felt like I was being accused of trying to cheat them (I didn't get a "free play" signup offer.. Was told "we don't offer those")

However.. As long as I don't have to deal with support, I have no problem playing in what seems to be a fast pay USA option. I've had a cashout pending from an accredited casino for 5 days (on authorized) and have yet to get a straight answer on when I'll see my withdrawal or western union update.

Hopefully tropics and its brands are able to change its customer service policies as a whole. It would be nice to have a good reliable gaming option that's accredited here.

 

[Nifty29]

In the old days, they were taken to a back room, had the crap beaten out of them by the heavies, money recovered, and dumped on the street. Now, it would be a case of calling in the police who would arrest them, take statements, and possibly press charges.

What Tropica did was the internet equivalent of the former, using extra judicial "heavies" to deal with the problem, which they call "a collection agency". The correct way would be to use the law, civil law if necessary. They could report them to the police in their own licencing jurisdiction, lodge their details on an industry wide anti fraud database so that as well as being banned from all Rival casinos, they would end up banned from many others. There may even be a way to issue a legitimate court summons that could be served on them, but that there would be one last chance to settle out of court amicably. This usually works for consumers when they are fighting a company that has so far refused to budge, so it should work for casinos when taking on all but the most hardcore fraudsters.

I suspect this "collection agency" was used because it was cheaper (perhaps paid by commission when they effect recovery, much like a bailiff) than having to pay lawyers fees, and possibly court fees, up front whether or not a settlement could be reached.

Bring back the old days! I bet it would stop a lot of bad debt.

Actually, many of the big licensed collection agencies ARE law firms/lawyers and they DO take a % of the debt. Wherever there's money, there's lawyers.

 

[petro]

In the old days, they were taken to a back room, had the crap beaten out of them by the heavies, money recovered, and dumped on the street.

Now they just ban people like card counters. And imo even that is wrong.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Bring back the old days! I bet it would stop a lot of bad debt.

Actually, many of the big licensed collection agencies ARE law firms/lawyers and they DO take a % of the debt. Wherever there's money, there's lawyers.

The problem with the old days was that often the "bad debt" was predatory and illegal. In effect, the poor consumer was being ripped off through the medium of contrived debt, often a debt that could never be paid off, much like the "loan shark" industry that thrived here for far too long before specific legal protections were granted to consumers. Even then, the loan sharks just became payday lenders and car clampers, and make a mint before the law caught up with them.

The best way to stop bad debt is not to lend the money in the first place unless the borrower clearly has the means to repay, and in the event of default, has the assets to seize legally to recover the money.

These collection agencies often don't work to the law, but try to recover debt where other means have failed, and where no legal route to recovery exists. They do not differentiate between the "won't pay" scammers and the genuine "can't pay" poor who can no longer make enough money to service their debt.

In the US, casinos take a gamble by taking card deposits in a manner that looks pretty dodgy from the outset, which makes it very easy for a dodgy player to convince their bank that the transactions as described on the statement are clearly bogus (such as $10,000 worth of bicycle parts from Dubai over the space of a month), and the result of their card being compromised and transactions being put through a fake merchant.

If deposits were taken in the UK in the same manner, it would make it easy even for UK players to operate such a scam. Thankfully, they don't, and even if you spent £10,000 in a month, if the bank saw it was at a casino they would be suspicious that the player had simply gotten in too deep, and was trying it on, so they would dig deeper rather than just nod through a chargeback.

It seems from a couple of other mentions as well as this case that this chargeback scam is becoming endemic in the US. It suggests that the proverbial genie is out of the bottle, and it's gathering pace as more and more players hear of it, how easy it is, and how it can work almost every time without repercussions. For some, it might be a choice from the outset, run the scam until they are listed on all the negative databases, banned by every US facing casino, and possibly even banned by the card company. They then "retire" on their windfall and don't really care that they can never again gamble online.

As well as ensuring casinos don't take the wrong approach, they need guidance on what "right approach" is deemed acceptable among the player community and those sites that offer accreditation or review points to casinos.

 

[hoff1985]

Had a good session again today at Tropica after a few bad ones... I really hope that even though this unacceptable case happened people will give them a chance because of 2 reasons.

1. RIVAL is a fantastic software. Sooo damn unique. Free Spin multiplier gets carried over to bonus round = One of the most exciting things i've experienced and it makes the slots so much more fun. And of course fast triggering bonus rounds. If you haven't experienced RIVAL do it. I guarantee you after a while you will love the software.

2. Tropica is a great place to play. I will not defend anyone for what happened, and we all know that this is unacceptable (although i wasn't shocked about the wording, as lots of those debt collectors or how you call them work the same way with using those pychological tricks), but when we forget this one case, this casino has proven so big to me the last few months that they're a great brand. Support answers always fast, and the 1-2 times i couldn't reach someone in live chat, i had an e-mail in my mailbox a couple of minutes later with an apology. Also the Rep is probably one of the best here in the forum. He answers pretty much all questions in a few minutes and he always supported me when i needed help. Last but not least, cashouts are fast, really fast. I never waited more than a few hours, even on the weekend.

I really hope that they will get a second chance after a while to get accredited, as they're in my opinion by far the best RIVAL casino out there.

This is the last post from me in this thread, i think everything is said

 

[The Viking]

Well i have not rased my view in this thread as i didnt think it would matter,
but i really do hope Bryan opens it up again and gives them another chance in the very near future,
as i belivie everybody deserves a 2nd chance.we all make mistakes and as a kid i was told you have
to make mistakes so you can learn from them
I have been a member of Tropica since the beginning and ever since Dieter came on board
i have had nothing but top notch support, not to mention one of the quickest payouts of all
the casinos here at Casinomeister.
gotta mention as well, as some of you know i lost my brother tragically last May
and without my knowledge Dieter paid for my flight ticket,
and as he said just from the kindness of his heart and to make it a lil easier for me.
and i gotta mention this is coming from me, not in any way was i asked to write this.
but when someone does an awesome gesture like that they cant be all bad now can they
i will carry on playing there as if nothing has happend as i still think they are
the best Rival casino out there.
well this is my opinion anyway as we are all entitled to i belivie

 

[gagamel]

Well i have not rased my view in this thread as i didnt think it would matter,
but i really do hope Bryan opens it up again and gives them another chance in the very near future,
as i belivie everybody deserves a 2nd chance.we all make mistakes and as a kid i was told you have
to make mistakes so you can learn from them
I have been a member of Tropica since the beginning and ever since Dieter came on board
i have had nothing but top notch support, not to mention one of the quickest payouts of all
the casinos here at Casinomeister.
gotta mention as well, as some of you know i lost my brother tragically last May
and without my knowledge Dieter paid for my flight ticket,
and as he said just from the kindness of his heart and to make it a lil easier for me.
and i gotta mention this is coming from me, not in any way was i asked to write this.
but when someone does an awesome gesture like that they cant be all bad now can they
i will carry on playing there as if nothing has happend as i still think they are
the best Rival casino out there.
well this is my opinion anyway as we are all entitled to i belivie

I had a lot of PM`s with Dieter as well and I can say that Viking is totally right.

Dieter is an outstanding person and casino manager. If you play with his casinos and you are not a fraudster you have the best playtime.

I really hope they will have a second BBF as soon as possible. And always remember, there are a lot of satisfied customers here and only one player was able to kill the BBF.

I`m sure that in the future the communication will be more professional

All the best to Dieter and the Refilliate Group.

And of course I play more than 95% with them

 

[aceking123]

well its a shame really not alot to say on the subject that hasn't been covered , i shall say after being truely burnt via orange games a while ago , i have only one account with any rival software & its this place although i dont play often & never get a good run i do however still play here , there no doubt the best rival casino going with ease ) so i shall carry on playing here as i feel confident that i'm not going to get any hassle & hope they do get a second chance , good luck guys !

 

[hoff1985]

I have to strongly agree with that statement. Dieter is not just a very active Rep you also feel that he's a great guy. The way he communicates and how i can describe him after those few messages is really incredible.

He's a great man and i have no doubt that he will do everything to deliver the best he can. I have no intention to play any other RIVAL casino for the future as i feel very happy there. If you ever want to give a RIVAL casino a try, this is the right one. And once again, i'm not an affiliate and i'm not connected to any casino. But i think Tropica deserves some good feedback.

I had a lot of PM`s with Dieter as well and I can say that Viking is totally right.

Dieter is an outstanding person and casino manager. If you play with his casinos and you are not a fraudster you have the best playtime.

I really hope they will have a second BBF as soon as possible. And always remember, there are a lot of satisfied customers here and only one player was able to kill the BBF.

I`m sure that in the future the communication will be more professional

All the best to Dieter and the Refilliate Group.

And of course I play more than 95% with them

 

[michielm1]

casino should only take debitcards and e wallets.
only pay with money you can pay. and everything you must write and type yourself, so no cargebacks.

 

[nisosbar]

I have to agree with those who say Dieter tries very hard. Really no two ways about it - he goes above and beyond, IMHO.

The objectionable language and threatened tactics which prompted the failure really are unacceptable, BUT if, after a period of time, Casinomeister decided to give Dieter another chance, I think that would be very fair, and particularly in light of some of the other groups who have been given not just second, but third and fourth, chances. It's clear there is a substantial amount of positive goodwill that this group has earned.

Obviously, CM can do whatever he wants, just saying, that's my honest feeling about this. Peace.

 

[paul7388]

Never commented on this but thought I would before it closes.

Personally I do not play at Rival casinos for various reasons. But saw this Baptism failed because of the threatening letters over chargebacks, Whilst I agree its unacceptable I must say its just the way it goes. Living in UK there are more laws etc. about debt collecting. Sorry but even here if you default on debts and get passed to debt collectors the letters they send can be very threatening and intimidating.

I know of several people that have received letters from Debt Collection Agencies that are threatening and basically illegal. Also these companies feel it is okay to call the debtor constantly at home and at work which they legally can not do. Its not right but its just the way these companies seem to act. They will try any means to get the money owed.

But as for this group of casinos failing. All I can say is that over the years Rival has had a very bad reputation. Never thought I would see the day that a group of Rival casinos would show up and be completely different from the normal.

By all accounts they seem to be really fast payers, faster than many of the accredited casinos. The Rep for them is very active here and tho I have not dealt with him personally , from the other members comments he seems to be a genuinely good guy who goes out of his way to help.

There has also been several posts about members not getting paid by other Rival casinos not connected to this group. Any other Rep on this forum would just say sorry its nothing to do with my casinos. But no, Dieter tells them he will contact Rival and see what can be done and next thing you know these players are getting their money that is owed. That's one of the things that separate this group and their Rep from the rest.

But in the end I know they seriously broke the rules in that one case. I just hope that one day they get their second chance. Looking at list of accredited casinos theirs a few that you would say you never see a Rep on here or they also have faults. I guess its easy to say that's because there have been no complaints about the casinos so no need for Rep to intervene. But its also true that up till the failure of this Baptism there were never really any serious complaints about this group. And for a Rival group that's really truly amazing.

 

[hoff1985]

I mean on some point CM needs to let them try again... There are casinos that went downhill big time, but new management allowed them to try again here, so there's no reason to not let them try again on some point.

Never commented on this but thought I would before it closes.

Personally I do not play at Rival casinos for various reasons. But saw this Baptism failed because of the threatening letters over chargebacks, Whilst I agree its unacceptable I must say its just the way it goes. Living in UK there are more laws etc. about debt collecting. Sorry but even here if you default on debts and get passed to debt collectors the letters they send can be very threatening and intimidating.

I know of several people that have received letters from Debt Collection Agencies that are threatening and basically illegal. Also these companies feel it is okay to call the debtor constantly at home and at work which they legally can not do. Its not right but its just the way these companies seem to act. They will try any means to get the money owed.

But as for this group of casinos failing. All I can say is that over the years Rival has had a very bad reputation. Never thought I would see the day that a group of Rival casinos would show up and be completely different from the normal.

By all accounts they seem to be really fast payers, faster than many of the accredited casinos. The Rep for them is very active here and tho I have not dealt with him personally , from the other members comments he seems to be a genuinely good guy who goes out of his way to help.

There has also been several posts about members not getting paid by other Rival casinos not connected to this group. Any other Rep on this forum would just say sorry its nothing to do with my casinos. But no, Dieter tells them he will contact Rival and see what can be done and next thing you know these players are getting their money that is owed. That's one of the things that separate this group and their Rep from the rest.

But in the end I know they seriously broke the rules in that one case. I just hope that one day they get their second chance. Looking at list of accredited casinos theirs a few that you would say you never see a Rep on here or they also have faults. I guess its easy to say that's because there have been no complaints about the casinos so no need for Rep to intervene. But its also true that up till the failure of this Baptism there were never really any serious complaints about this group. And for a Rival group that's really truly amazing.

 

[Tirilej]

I mean on some point CM needs to let them try again... There are casinos that went downhill big time, but new management allowed them to try again here, so there's no reason to not let them try again on some point.

I have no doubt that Bryan will let them try again, but my guess is that we have to be patient.
They know that what happened was wrong and that changes have to be made.
They are at least still here and that is for me the most important thing.

There are a lot of casinos here that are not accredited and that also are active. They just have to keep on being one of them again for a while longer. That's not a bad thing, and I'm happy that I have a group of Rival that I trust again