Think slots are rigged? Read this first...

[dionysus]

My thoughts aloud - In accordance with electronictonic posted information, I can make the conclusion for my self:

• slots are not random but they are random enough to pass the tests by TST, GLI, eCogra (that's what I thought earlier)
• not random slots - doesn't mean slots are rigged

Can anybody add anything?

seems about right and what trance has been saying all along - slots are pseudo-random but about as near to random as is required and necessary

Which is what we use... a PNRG. Normally the Mersenne Twister.

 

[goatwack]

However can such rudimentary software programmes developed using BASIC or C++, and worth billions of dollars, be made to pass these legislations I ponder?

 

[snorky510238]

I just don’t get how it can be nearly random It’s a black and white issue. The same as saying it’s nearly infinite. If something is immeasurable how can you say how close to it you are?

 

[dionysus]

However can such rudimentary software programmes developed using BASIC or C++, and worth billions of dollars, be made to pass these legislations I ponder?

]

I suspect as with anything, as technology and demand improves so will measures.
Much like cars I imagine - enough is done to make what is needed even though it's there to create a car that should effectively last a lifetime.

There's probably a million ways Bryan has looked at for improving the forum, not everything of which is neither necessary nor feasible but is done as and when is required.

 

[goatwack]

I suspect as with anything, as technology and demand improves so will measures.
Much like cars I imagine - enough is done to make what is needed even though it's there to create a car that should effectively last a lifetime.

There's probably a million ways Bryan has looked at for improving the forum, not everything of which is neither necessary nor feasible but is done as and when is required.

I didn't mean to simply imply that there's shady goings on. Speaking of cars, I'm sure a few legislators get these too. Silly me

 

[dionysus]

I just don’t get how it can be nearly random It’s a black and white issue. The same as saying it’s nearly infinite. If something is immeasurable how can you say how close to it you are?

because it's freely admitted it's pseudo-random and not truly random - just because a guy flips burgers at work doesnt mean he sits down and explains, well, it's a hamburger, as derived from Hamburg, not actually made of ham, specifically the kind that contains 2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, two pickles, onions on a seasame seed bun

hed say burgers
but if pressed, I'm sure he could pedantically spell it all out
which trance has done.
it's just as easy to say random

it's not as though any of it is hidden - it's all there, available to read online

 

[dionysus]

I didn't mean to simply imply that there's shady goings on. Speaking of cars, I'm sure a few legislators get these too. Silly me

View attachment 106246

I think the best I ever get on my car is bird crap and the odd parking ticket

 

[goatwack]

because it's freely admitted it's pseudo-random and not truly random - just because a guy flips burgers at work doesnt mean he sits down and explains, well, it's a hamburger, as derived from Hamburg, not actually made of ham, specifically the kind that contains 2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, two pickles, onions on a seasame seed bun

hed say burgers
but if pressed, I'm sure he could pedantically spell it all out
which trance has done.
it's just as easy to say random

it's not as though any of it is hidden - it's all there, available to read online

I agree, it's been there all along but it's the industry's desire to keep it buried and to mislead is also prevalent.

Left right & centre governing bodies are slapping legislations on every vice known to man, for our 'benefit'. Cigarrette packets minus branding and with pictures of rotting teeth & lungs, sugar taxation, even things like vaping where the landscape has become like The Third Reich because of, well, 'Think of the children'.

Yet with gambling it seems to always get a free pass, then people are told the wrong 'random' time and time again because it's protectionism and closing rank. I don't believe for one second gambling authorities haven't been 'motivated' shall we say to let things slide, when the software is clearly not up to scratch or fit for purpose.

But then it is a multi-billion Dollar industry that preys on compulsive behaviours, so there is that

 

[trancemonkey]

How many slots would 1 rng feed?

As many as are running on the server potentially... hence you simply could not predict anything as every slot is pulling numbers all the time.

 

[trancemonkey]

How did that Russian team manage to crack the PRNG on the novomatic games and predict the next winning cycle if thats the case?

www.wired.com

Because they were pulling their random numbers in sequence at regular intervals, so they somehow got hold of the Code (the seed) probably by reverse engineering it, and because they knew the seed and the update cycle was constant, they could predict the best times to press the start button. Therefore giving them an edge. Weirdly, the industry learns from mistakes.

 

[snorky510238]

So say every different slot has a different number of stop positions. For example some will have more than others. What happens if it pulls a number that isn’t applicable? Does it just keep pulling numbers until it gets one that is?

 

[trancemonkey]

This entire thread just shows that not a single one if you has actually bothered you understand just how much difference there would be between the output form a TRNG vs a PRNG in terms of the effect it has on the game. The answer is so close to none it would be almost immeasurable, and other all the tests designed to test randomness would be passed. It will have the same payout percentage, the feature will still happen on average the same amount of times and the profile of the game will be the same.

This forum is becoming awash with people who just want to find something to complain about no matter whether it has an impact on the games or not.

You can't just toss in a word salad and pretend that somehow one is fair and one isn't without actually knowing what you are talking about.

 

[dionysus]

This entire thread just shows that not a single one if you has actually bothered you understand just how much difference there would be between the output form a TRNG vs a PRNG in terms of the effect it has on the game. .

well, gosh, I'm trying

 

[paul7388]

because it's freely admitted it's pseudo-random and not truly random - just because a guy flips burgers at work doesnt mean he sits down and explains, well, it's a hamburger, as derived from Hamburg, not actually made of ham, specifically the kind that contains 2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, two pickles, onions on a seasame seed bun

hed say burgers
but if pressed, I'm sure he could pedantically spell it all out
which trance has done.
it's just as easy to say random

it's not as though any of it is hidden - it's all there, available to read online

So a hamburger is made with beef but a beefburger is not made with ham as it came from Hamburg. And if originally it came from Damascus it would be a Turkeyburger not a hamburger even tho it has no turkey.

I am so confused . Totally lost now. So i can not take anymore info in so to set the record straight did we ever figure out if slots were Random or Rigged

 

[trancemonkey]

So say every different slot has a different number of stop positions. For example some will have more than others. What happens if it pulls a number that isn’t applicable? Does it just keep pulling numbers until it gets one that is?

It can't pull a number that isn't applicable. The server asks the RNG for a number, probably a 32 bit integer, and then I believe some clever software converts that in to the range you need by removing the bits that are not relevant.

Don't quote me on that... I think it might be something like that but I'm not sure. It's what very clever maths people do....

For example:

Integer Multiplication (Biase)
The multiplication method can be adjusted to used fixed-point arithmetic rather than floating point. Essentially we just multiply throughout by 2 to the power 32.

uint32_t bounded_rand(rng_t& rng, uint32_t range) {
uint32_t x = rng();
uint64_t m = uint64_t(x) * uint64_t(range);
return m >> 32;
}

Where range is the range of numbers you want.

 

[dionysus]

So a hamburger is made with beef but a beefburger is not made with ham as it came from Hamburg. And if originally it came from Damascus it would be a Turkeyburger not a hamburger even tho it has no turkey.

and happy endings arent happy endings if you cry after

 

[trancemonkey]

well, gosh, I'm trying

Ok sorry some of you. . that was unfair. But some here just want to find any reason to complain and then refuse to believe anything other than their point of view.

 

[goatwack]

and happy endings arent happy endings if you cry after

They are at my local massage parlour. 'Cinnamon' makes me blub like I've been born again

 

[brianmon]

It can't pull a number that isn't applicable. The server asks the RNG for a number, probably a 32 bit integer, and then I believe some clever software converts that in to the range you need by removing the bits that are not relevant.

Don't quote me on that... I think it might be something like that but I'm not sure. It's what very clever maths people do....

For example:

Integer Multiplication (Biase)
The multiplication method can be adjusted to used fixed-point arithmetic rather than floating point. Essentially we just multiply throughout by 2 to the power 32.

uint32_t bounded_rand(rng_t& rng, uint32_t range) {
uint32_t x = rng();
uint64_t m = uint64_t(x) * uint64_t(range);
return m >> 32;
}

Where range is the range of numbers you want.

Or just use the modulus function, which would give the remainder of RandomNumber divided by Range.
in C++ RandomNumber % Range would produce any integer between 0 and range, from any random number

 

[TheAddict]

This entire thread just shows that not a single one if you has actually bothered you understand just how much difference there would be between the output form a TRNG vs a PRNG in terms of the effect it has on the game. The answer is so close to none it would be almost immeasurable, and other all the tests designed to test randomness would be passed. It will have the same payout percentage, the feature will still happen on average the same amount of times and the profile of the game will be the same.

This forum is becoming awash with people who just want to find something to complain about no matter whether it has an impact on the games or not.

You can't just toss in a word salad and pretend that somehow one is fair and one isn't without actually knowing what you are talking about.

of course people are going to find something to complain about in this thread.
it is open to anyone on the planet that finds it, and the title itself and likelihood of the responses is prompting for people who simply don't beleive, or don't fully understand, or who havn't "actually bothered" to try and understand, to continue on from what is brought up, or depending on personal feelings/experience down right complain, which will follow with more responses.
i can't see what else you expected to happen after having experienced some these kind of responses in the AMA thread, but yeah just label everyone the same who is inferior to your experience in working in the industry

bed wrong side of today trance? ;p

 

[mcgameboy]

This entire thread just shows that not a single one if you has actually bothered you understand just how much difference there would be between the output form a TRNG vs a PRNG in terms of the effect it has on the game. The answer is so close to none it would be almost immeasurable, and other all the tests designed to test randomness would be passed. It will have the same payout percentage, the feature will still happen on average the same amount of times and the profile of the game will be the same.

This forum is becoming awash with people who just want to find something to complain about no matter whether it has an impact on the games or not.

You can't just toss in a word salad and pretend that somehow one is fair and one isn't without actually knowing what you are talking about.

But it is apparently OK for you to toss the retard label at anyone who has the audacity to query how things work?

By the way, I happen to be one of those who was firmly IN the "I believe what trancemonkey says" camp.

Way to tar the CM membership with the same brush TM. Seriously, I'm very disappointed by your remark.

I thought you were way better than that. Clearly, I was wrong.

 

[dionysus]

of course people are going to find something to complain about in this thread.
it is open to anyone on the planet that finds it, and the title itself and likelihood of the responses is prompting for people who simply don't beleive, or don't fully understand, or who havn't "actually bothered" to try and understand, to continue on from what is brought up, or depending on personal feelings/experience down right complain, which will follow with more responses.
i can't see what else you expected to happen after having experienced some these kind of responses in the AMA thread, but yeah just label everyone the same who is inferior to your experience in working in the industry

bed wrong side of today trance? ;p

maybe he's just really really tired of explaining the same things to the same people, and feels an obligation to set the record straight so new people viewing it actually have an understanding as opposed to a misininformed and jaded perspective

 

[sledge13]

BTG releasing faulty slots, and we are to trust these slot people?

Sunday Slots with The Bandit - The Final Countdown, Reactoonz and More! | The Bandit's Slot Channel Website

 

[dionysus]

occasionally cars and phones explode
i imagine we still drive to work and chat on the android (hopefully not at the same time )

 

[dionysus]

for the record, it's poor form and frowned upon to directly link to other gambling forums - best to import information in

edited for typos

 

[dunover]

@sledge13 - killed the link.

 

[goatwack]

I think there's obviously an impasse between those who proclaim "That's the best random you're gonna get" and those who believe in what fair play and true random actually represents.

Until that day we all run through sunny fields together it will always be that way

 

[dionysus]

I think there's obviously an impasse between those who proclaim "That's the best random you're gonna get" and those who believe in what fair play and true random actually represents.

Until that day we all run through sunny fields together it will always be that way

yes, but you keep wanting to do it naked and I always feel awkward

 

[TheAddict]

yes, but you keep wanting to do it naked and I always feel awkward

thanks for projecting thid image that I've just had to frantically scrape from my brain!

 

[dionysus]

thanks for projecting thid image that I've just had to frantically scrape from my brain!

 

[trancemonkey]

Or just use the modulus function, which would give the remainder of RandomNumber divided by Range.
in C++ RandomNumber % Range would produce any integer between 0 and range, from any random number

You can, but division takes longer to process than multiplication. So it's quicker to multiply... marginally, but still quicker

 

[trancemonkey]

of course people are going to find something to complain about in this thread.
it is open to anyone on the planet that finds it, and the title itself and likelihood of the responses is prompting for people who simply don't beleive, or don't fully understand, or who havn't "actually bothered" to try and understand, to continue on from what is brought up, or depending on personal feelings/experience down right complain, which will follow with more responses.
i can't see what else you expected to happen after having experienced some these kind of responses in the AMA thread, but yeah just label everyone the same who is inferior to your experience in working in the industry

bed wrong side of today trance? ;p

Tired from skiing so maybe a little man period... lol

I don't mind people covering topics that are controversial, but when people are comparing TRNGs with PRNGs as if one is a Fiat and the other is Lamborghini is just ignorant at best and wilfully misleading at worst

 

[trancemonkey]

But it is apparently OK for you to toss the retard label at anyone who has the audacity to query how things work?

By the way, I happen to be one of those who was firmly IN the "I believe what trancemonkey says" camp.

Way to tar the CM membership with the same brush TM. Seriously, I'm very disappointed by your remark.

I thought you were way better than that. Clearly, I was wrong.

Don't think I used the word retarded or retard.

And yes I'm frustrated by some people just commenting with half truths or misinformation.

I apologise for my frustration coming out like that... everyone has a limit.

 

[trancemonkey]

BTG releasing faulty slots, and we are to trust these slot people?

Sunday Slots with The Bandit - The Final Countdown, Reactoonz and More! | The Bandit's Slot Channel Website

Faults happen... we're all human. The important thing is that they get fixed.

Report it to them via PM on here if you want
If it's a true fault they will want to fix it...

 

[dunover]

Faults happen... we're all human. The important thing is that they get fixed.

Report it to them via PM on here if you want
If it's a true fault they will want to fix it...

Already done it (made BTG rep aware of the video link) - it's a silly graphics glitch, same as happened on Donuts. So don't bombard the poor devil with 30 messages. It's upsetting enough for him just to see my name in his inbox.

 

[dionysus]

dammit
*puts pitchfork down, whistles non-chalantly

 

[snorky510238]

Faults happen... we're all human. The important thing is that they get fixed.

Report it to them via PM on here if you want
If it's a true fault they will want to fix it...

They must be gutted. I mean how unlucky is that. It just went through billions of test spins under the strictest conditions in the testing lab and no glitches at all then this and would you believe it a very similar thing happened on donuts. You gotta feel so sorry for the guys at the testing lab people are going to start thinking they don’t exist.

 

[goatwack]

I thought streamers were BTG's product testers?

 

[trancemonkey]

They must be gutted. I mean how unlucky is that. It just went through billions of test spins under the strictest conditions in the testing lab and no glitches at all then this and would you believe it a very similar thing happened on donuts. You gotta feel so sorry for the guys at the testing lab people are going to start thinking they don’t exist.

They test billions of spins mathematically, not visually. Visual play simply can't be that many. They do manual play but some visual faults are rare, or only on certain devices.

Read the publicly accessible documents on the ukgc website about what testing is required. I've also linked to it in a recent thread. It's all there.

 

[snorky510238]

They test billions of spins mathematically, not visually. Visual play simply can't be that many. They do manual play but some visual faults are rare, or only on certain devices.

Read the publicly accessible documents on the ukgc website about what testing is required. I've also linked to it in a recent thread. It's all there.

So if there’s a fault like that one it won’t be picked up. That’s thorough.

 

[trancemonkey]

So if there’s a fault like that one it won’t be picked up. That’s thorough.

No, I didn't say that. I said it might not be picked up.

Compliance testing is to make sure the game is fair, legal and the maths are correct. It's not a replacement for your own QA.

 

[slot_zombie]

Realistic Games proudly boasted of their online games compensator on their website, until fairly recently. But their games still play 100% compensated. Very thin returns, then you get the streak when you've pumped enough money in - rinse and repeat.

 

[Siohmy]

Does true random even exist?

And I can understand tracemonkeys frustrations. Debate is good, opinions are good (generally), but what probably gets his goat is that quite a few on here question how slots work, rngs, whether something is rigged. They get an answer they don’t like and then often quote something as fact which clearly cannot be backed up.

If I believe something to be true I possibly will always believe it, sometimes in the face of conpelling evidence to the contrary. It’s especially easy to do this with slots. I personally stop short at saying things like “clearly the gamble wheel on Extra Chilli is rigged” as if it were some sort of indisputable fact. Even if I do think that way I certainly wouldn’t repeat it every week which seems to happen quite a bit.

That said, some manufacturers and casinos are certainly doing good jobs of shooting themselves in the foot in respect of player confidence.

 

[trancemonkey]

Realistic Games proudly boasted of their online games compensator on their website, until fairly recently. But their games still play 100% compensated. Very thin returns, then you get the streak when you've pumped enough money in - rinse and repeat.

Proof please

You can use way back machine (Google it) to get website history

 

[Sasukdcf]

some great posta above thank you all

 

[nimaxa]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and this is my first comment, sorry for my English.
I think the question is not, if they are rigged, I think the correct question is, why are they going to rig it?
Of all the money that is played in the slot machine they only win, more or less 3%, this does not mean that if you enter € 100 they only win 3, explained simply, of those 100 you will be returned 97 that you will play again and there will be 94 that you will play again ... it is only a matter of time before you lose all the money. The only trick I think they use is to pay the majority of prizes, in amounts small enough so that the client does not feel like a winner and keeps playing. Rigged? why? With the law in hand, they have the tools to win, always and a lot.

 

[trancemonkey]

Btw - this is the regulation from one of the markets about the RNG:

The RNG may be created with software programmes and/or hardware devices and must reside in the central system; the random numbers must be generated, for the purposes of determining the outcomes of each bet, in respect of the properties of randomness, statistical independence, equiprobability, non-reproducibility, unpredictability, and non-deductibility of the suit; the random numbers and the outcomes of the same must not be accessible, before being used by the gaming software present on the video lottery terminal.

The statistical tests required to determine respect of the aforementioned properties must satisfy a confidence level of 99%.

 

[goatwack]

Btw - this is the regulation from one of the markets about the RNG:

The RNG may be created with software programmes and/or hardware devices and must reside in the central system; the random numbers must be generated, for the purposes of determining the outcomes of each bet, in respect of the properties of randomness, statistical independence, equiprobability, non-reproducibility, unpredictability, and non-deductibility of the suit; the random numbers and the outcomes of the same must not be accessible, before being used by the gaming software present on the video lottery terminal.

The statistical tests required to determine respect of the aforementioned properties must satisfy a confidence level of 99%.

So does that make it random or rigged? Or randomly rigged?

Or just rigged with a sprinkling of random.....I'm confused more than ever

 

[snorky510238]

So does that make it random or rigged? Or randomly rigged?

Or just rigged with a sprinkling of random.....I'm confused more than ever

“That’s the way aha aha they like it aha aha That’s the way aha aha they like it”. Sure there’s a song like that somewhere in my memory. That’s the way the whole gaming industry is. Every angle you could scrutinise it from is covered by being open ended/grey areas/billions of spins needed/rngs that are nearly random/games tested thoroughly that malfunction immediately upon release/ etc etc. We really can be excused for not accepting everything Carte Blanche.

 

[treycolo18]

Great info....never heard of TRNG