Think slots are rigged? Read this first...

He posted some information, and people are questioning that. Why?
Compare how many threads it is like this to how many it is about slots being rigged :D

Maybe I shouldn't be able to post another thread with pictures because I've done it before:eek2:

People are just wondering as to why he suddenly posted it since its all been said about 100 times in his other thread. Of course he can make threads if he wants. Does not stop people wondering why he suddenly decided to do it.
 
People are just wondering as to why he suddenly posted it since its all been said about 100 times in his other thread. Of course he can make threads if he wants. Does not stop people wondering why he suddenly decided to do it.

Because this time his most important information about why slots aren't rigged is in the very first post in the thread.
Very smart of him I think, and I doubt he needs to answer more in this thread. That is what the other thread is for.
 
For those of you that think slots (and roulette, and the rest) are rigged / compensated, consider the following questions first.
Allright, I totally qualify.

1. Can you prove beyond doubt using statistical evidence that games are rigged / compensated? Or is it just purely based on a "feeling"?
No, I cannot prove that games whose maths are known (roulette, poker) or public are rigged because I haven't scrupulously collected enough statistical data to prove it. I think I have experienced or observed enough odd events in enough rounds to make a statistical conclusion possible, thus a certain "feeling" for those games.

For games whose "random" math models are company secrets, well there is no statistical evidence possible unless there is a model to compare it to, is it ? maybe an artificial intelligence controls the game, because gamblers are so predictable and it's just about win/loss result, not creating a piece of art.

And if there is a math model with a RNG behind each proprietary game, if it is made public, who is gonna play 10 billion spins 0.25€ a round and collect this data to draw conclusions ? let alone playing higher stakes. Won't happen. And Internet being what it is, you cannot really rely on a collective of players either.


So in any case, for those games, the question of statistical evidence provided by the players is either flawed or impossible from the start.

2. It is illegal (in regulated markets) and the software providers risk losing their licence, and compensating or rigging would be fraud, and therefore a criminal offense. The directors, or the software developers, or both, could go to prison for quite a long time. Is it really worth it - i would seriously doubt many people would say yes.
Honest question here: is it really illegal? Those directors and developers risk higher fines and imprisonment by driving a car on the way to work than at work. I don't think

3. Given that casinos can make more money by running lower RTP versions of the games, why do they need to "rig" games when they already have the edge? They already have the ability to increase that edge should they so choose by running games at a lower RTP where games providers supply them.
Greed.

4. Nearly all games providers are in competition with each other - so why would they then work together on complex and illegal software?
Nearly all drug dealers are in competition with each other. So why would they work together on more complex and dangerous methods of cutting the dope ? I don't know why they would have to work together, but I understand why they would all work on it.


I don't know what catC, B4, B3 is, I'll just assume they're games with money.
5. If i was going to compensate a game (and i've done compensated Cat C, B4 and some old B3 games) why would we compensate in such a way to make it OBVIOUS that it's ripping your arms off ?
Because you can. Because you use a bad AI. Because gamblers arms will grow again. Because you don't have to make the math model public, you can always say it's an unlucky-1000-loss-in-a-row, legally.
The whole point of compensation is control - so if we CAN control the games, why make it so obvious and make them play so badly. Pissing players off does nothing other than lose customers, so your reasoning makes no sense.
To piss off a gambler, you have to rip his head off. Literally. Anything else, like player wins 1000x, or casino cheats player, is a win for the casino industry in the short and long term.

6. Why has not one single pissed off disgruntled or sacked employee come out and spilled the beans. Ever.
Dead men tell no tales. Or maybe there is no such thing as pissed off disgruntled ex-employee.
There aren't many whistleblowiers, free, with unshattered career out there. But maybe there is
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7. Have you heard of Apophenia - it refers to a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. It's also called the "Gambler's Fallacy" -
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- this describes exactly the feeling that you (and most of us on here) have when gambling. Except only a few make the jump to rigged. And yes this is a provable phenomenon. The POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS section might give you some insight, but all of it is worth a read - here's an excerpt:
The gambler's fallacy is a deep-seated cognitive bias and can be very hard to overcome. Educating individuals about the nature of randomness has not always proven effective in reducing or eliminating any manifestation of the fallacy. Participants in a study by Beach and Swensson in 1967 were shown a shuffled deck of index cards with shapes on them, and were instructed to guess which shape would come next in a sequence. The experimental group of participants was informed about the nature and existence of the gambler's fallacy, and were explicitly instructed not to rely on run dependency to make their guesses. The control group was not given this information. The response styles of the two groups were similar, indicating that the experimental group still based their choices on the length of the run sequence. This led to the conclusion that instructing individuals about randomness is not sufficient in lessening the gambler's fallacy
I haven't heard the scientific term but know the phenomena.

I don't jump to the Rigged caravan because of 10 loss-in-a-row covering 33 numbers of the roulette table or 40% RTP 5000 spins sessions, or the opposite. I jump on that caravan after weighting all arguments.


8. If you are still adamant we are a lying bunch of crooks, i'm a liar and just here to further the misdirection, then honestly - why play at all?
I don't play anymore.
TM
 
Not sure why you created another thread when all of this has been said over and over but hey whatever floats your boat.

It comes down to this with people who truly believe things are rigged. You are a games developer so you have an obvious bias so no matter what you say or how loud you yell it, you have zero chance with them and it's truly a waste of time.

I started this thread so people had a one stop shop, rather than trawling through the large AMA thread ;)
 
I will agree with pinnit2014 insomuch that I can never 100% rule out dodgy things going on. But then I am from a poker background and went through the UltimateBet super-admin fiasco in addition to the Full Tilt Ponzi scheme. Never underestimate the ability for greedy people to go to any lengths to get more money.

That said, all of what you say Trancemonkey is what I believe. There can be some pretty awfully designed slots and the proliferation of these in the hyper HV age is likely contributing to players views on this subject. Designers have cottoned onto a way of getting players money quicker and that, more than “rigged” slots is where the greed element is taking over. TRTP largely stays the same but the throughput goes through the roof.

I can't rule out dodgy providers doing dodgy stuff - of course not. I'm sure they exist, especially in non-regulated or badly regulated areas.
But the idea that EVERYONE is working together to rig all games? That's just the stuff of ridicule...
 

Thank you for your honest answers... :
To answer your honest question, yes it is illegal. The RTS (remote technical standards) are publicly available on the UKGC website if you want to look at them: Old / Expired Link
That is a list of all the things companies have to comply with to operate in the UK. You are free to believe companies ignore them... but you aren't free to ignore the fact they exist :)
 
Why did you create this thread, Trancemonkey? You already have one here. Hopefully Bryan will lock this Monday.

I don't want to discuss the death of the online casino industry because it's akin to beating the dead horse.

He can lock it if he so chooses - it doesn't really need endless discussion. I posted those points outside of the lengthy AMA thread so people could at least question their beliefs by using facts, and some questions they can ask themselves.
I personally don't think it's fair that people should have to wade through 90+ pages of AMA, or all the other conspiracy threads, to see the arguments from the "other side" - i.e me.
So this is a quick way of letting people who question things have a different view, and to ask them some pertinent questions.
 
In my opinion, the slots are not rigged! But I think that they are programmed to play the way they play!

It's called maths Guntis... the maths determines the personality of the game. It's the heart of the game. So yes, you're absolutely right - the maths determines how they play, and the maths is programmed in to the game
 
Too bad some threads cant be pinned. This one would be great for that. Thanks for doing this, as the other thread like you pointed out, is way too much. I myself have been turned off just over the huge size of it, and then questions become redundant.
 
Dreamcatcher was 100% rigged it had to have been running on a motor because of the simple facts of the laws of physics, a bike needs a human to turn the pedals, ride as fast as you can on a straight road and stop peddling, do the wheels slow down, or just keep
spinning at the same speed like Dreamcatcher? why do washing machines need electricty to keep spinning round and round without slowing down? sit in car with the engine off and have a few friends push the car down the road, now does the car slow down? or do the wheels keep on spinning at the same speed for miles and miles? oh that's right a car needs fuel and an engine to keep the wheels turning? put some people on a fairground ferris wheel and after a few spins cut the electricty, now what happens? oh yeah the people get trapped on it because it will stop eventually, like has happened many times, you cannot re-write the laws of physics they are like a Maxim, the explanation that it kept going at the same speed because the "flapper was broken" is impossible you cannot defeat the laws of physics, the flapper is utterly irrelevant, if you spin the wheel with no flapper on the wheel it will still eventually come to a stop, unless there is some power source making it spin at the same speed = electricity.
 
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Too bad some threads cant be pinned. This one would be great for that. Thanks for doing this, as the other thread like you pointed out, is way too much. I myself have been turned off just over the huge size of it, and then questions become redundant.

Of course some threads can be pinned. Just ask the mods and I'm sure they will keep this in the top of the Slots discussion forum.
 
There have been a number of cases of "cheating", or non-random, casino games over the years. Most have involved table games or video poker. It's much more difficult to prove a cheating slot game, because the odds of the various outcomes are unknown.

For example, the software that used to be called OddsOn (does it even exist anymore?) was caught with non-random video poker double-up games:

Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating

SkillOnNet were also caught with non-random video poker:

€U Casino - EU Casino Video Poker Double UP

Mansion Casino, before the went to Playtech, had a video poker game that redrew discarded cards.

The software B3W also had non-random video poker.

Just to name a few.
 
Well I play online now for about 10 years and for me personally I have achieved bigger wins than I ever achieved in any land based casino.
I think the RTP settings for online slots are still way better than in any b&m as they most likely have much higher overhead costs.
In bad sessions I always curse at my screen giving out about the slot I am playing, more frustration than anything else.

I have seen many good days but also many bad.
On the end it all balances out slightly in favor of the casinos, just like any game has a house edge.

Sure I do not understand why a certain slot needs 1200 spins for example to then dish out the first free spin trigger, just a spell of bad luck I suppose.
Call Bonanza and also many MGS slots that can have this tendency where it takes ages to trigger the bonus.
That said I had many times a bonus trigger on my first spin, or first couple of spins.

On the side of randomness I will remain neutral.
I just ask this, who had a huge win let's say 500x + on a slot and within the next 50 spins another huge win. Hardly ever happens.
The RNG should be able to dish out another one as easy after a big win but I personally never seen it, most slots go cold after a huge win.

But do I trust the accredited and verified slots providers? Yes I do.
Do I enjoy slots? Yes I do.
Do I believe there are dodgy providers? Yes I do, but not the big established slot brands.
Do I believe slots are fair? Yes I do, most of the times. :D

My biggest win online is still 5852x stake on a €1.00 bet at WIlliam Hill on a decommissioned horse race slot.
My biggest win in any b&m in my life is still a "lousy" 2500x bet at €1.50 stake in Holland Casino Netherlands. (Signs of Zodiac Slot). Will never forget.
 
On the side of randomness I will remain neutral.
I just ask this, who had a huge win let's say 500x + on a slot and within the next 50 spins another huge win. Hardly ever happens.
The RNG should be able to dish out another one as easy after a big win but I personally never seen it, most slots go cold after a huge win.

.
Not often, hardly at all, but then you'd expect it not to - slots are random, but theyre still weighted (ie there isnt an equal distribution of prizes, there's more lower wins than larger wins available)
 
I do not think its rigged but I think slot providers and casinos playing with our visual and acoustic systems. Two Scatter teases, even if the third is not coming in some slots the sound is near/or it is the same as when you would have gotten 3 scatters (Best example is the provider thunderkick you has probably a master exam on this one).

Then the reel appearance shows you often that you was just a little bit away from winning big, the bonus wheels or any function never displaying the real odds. When you lose 10 times in a row at Extra Chilli in the first gamble, you think that you will win 9 times in a row in another session. This is what you expect, but the odds are not that clear that you will ever win at the gamble. If you lose 1000 times the first gamble (never happened) would you consider it is rigged or is it still random? Because the word random can be used in many situations and for nearly any circumstance.

Therefore the "feeling" a person has is not that wrong. The games are not showing the real odds (they do tell you the RTP but that is all), I mean this visually and not the description in the game rules or in the paytable. Of course, it feels rigged when always 1-2 symbols missing for the big win, but this is how many slot providers designing their slots. Most people who blame the casinos wasted way too much money and tried to force something that they can not influence, I totally can understand these people - but they need to reduce/stop playing when they want not to go crazy and end in the streets.

(I am not good in English, but I tried my best to make it readable)
 
I am not going into massive depth as we have been there before but the term “random” is somewhat an ambiguous statement. When you check the definition slots do not fully comply with the main points. The argument that the spin is random is plausible but ultimately it is the outcome we are interested in and that is weighted which is all we are concerned about. I mean you can argue the spin of a compensated slot is random as far as before you press spin you cannot predict what symbols will land. I have been reluctant to post this in the past but I know of a company that has a UK license that certainly used rigged software in the past. I cannot go into detail for obvious reasons and anyway it will probably be dismissed by the “rose tinted glassers”. By the way trance any explanation for the randomness of the answer always being the highest percentage when you choose to walk away on millionaire?
 
There is currently a uk AWP which when loading the game via a touch screen states it is 100% random. Yet in the help screen within the game states its compensated. I have a video of this if anybody can tell me how to put it on here? Can I use a YouTube link? How on earth could that slip through the net after all the guidelines and compliance/testing that is suppose to happen?

There has also been ‘exploitable’ ‘random’ games in the past which weren’t random as stated. Hence why they were exploitable!!

I’ve no doubt all these rules and regulations exist, but unfortunately whether it be by human error, a mistake in code or failure in these rigorous checks these games allegedly go through the odd cock up slio through the net!

I personally am not a foil hatter I believe the games are as genuine as trance says. However I know for a fact that there have been cases in the past which proves otherwise.
 
I am not going into massive depth as we have been there before but the term “random” is somewhat an ambiguous statement. When you check the definition slots do not fully comply with the main points. The argument that the spin is random is plausible but ultimately it is the outcome we are interested in and that is weighted which is all we are concerned about. I mean you can argue the spin of a compensated slot is random as far as before you press spin you cannot predict what symbols will land. I have been reluctant to post this in the past but I know of a company that has a UK license that certainly used rigged software in the past. I cannot go into detail for obvious reasons and anyway it will probably be dismissed by the “rose tinted glassers”. By the way trance any explanation for the randomness of the answer always being the highest percentage when you choose to walk away on millionaire?

I had a feeling someone like you might be sitting on a bombshell like this - you know of a company using 'rigged' software. Quite the statement.

What are the obvious reasons for why you can't talk about it? (It's not obvious to me)

And what do you intend to do about this?
 
I had a feeling someone like you might be sitting on a bombshell like this - you know of a company using 'rigged' software. Quite the statement.

What are the obvious reasons for why you can't talk about it? (It's not obvious to me)

And what do you intend to do about this?

Exactly... Snorkys statement is just meaningless. Anyone can say "I know x and y but I can't talk about it... but it's true honest". There is no reason that someone cant whistleblow on something that's illegal. No NDA or other contract in the world can stop you outing something that is knowingly illegal. Whether you WANT to out it is entirely up to you.. but there is no legal reason why you can't.

And also, as I've stated, I'm sure there are a few bad apples around the world. But there are threads on here that tarnish everyone with the same brush and that i will not have.
 
There is currently a uk AWP which when loading the game via a touch screen states it is 100% random. Yet in the help screen within the game states its compensated. I have a video of this if anybody can tell me how to put it on here? Can I use a YouTube link? How on earth could that slip through the net after all the guidelines and compliance/testing that is suppose to happen?

There has also been ‘exploitable’ ‘random’ games in the past which weren’t random as stated. Hence why they were exploitable!!

I’ve no doubt all these rules and regulations exist, but unfortunately whether it be by human error, a mistake in code or failure in these rigorous checks these games allegedly go through the odd cock up slio through the net!

I personally am not a foil hatter I believe the games are as genuine as trance says. However I know for a fact that there have been cases in the past which proves otherwise.

There have been cases, absolutely. But whether any of those were purposeful exploits by a company, versus bad or malicious programming by an employee, I don't know. I would doubt it was as a result of "company policy" for any of the main suppliers.
 
There is currently a uk AWP which when loading the game via a touch screen states it is 100% random. Yet in the help screen within the game states its compensated. I have a video of this if anybody can tell me how to put it on here? Can I use a YouTube link? How on earth could that slip through the net after all the guidelines and compliance/testing that is suppose to happen?

There has also been ‘exploitable’ ‘random’ games in the past which weren’t random as stated. Hence why they were exploitable!!

I’ve no doubt all these rules and regulations exist, but unfortunately whether it be by human error, a mistake in code or failure in these rigorous checks these games allegedly go through the odd cock up slio through the net!

I personally am not a foil hatter I believe the games are as genuine as trance says. However I know for a fact that there have been cases in the past which proves otherwise.

Please send me the YouTube link.
 
I had a feeling someone like you might be sitting on a bombshell like this - you know of a company using 'rigged' software. Quite the statement.

What are the obvious reasons for why you can't talk about it? (It's not obvious to me)

And what do you intend to do about this?
If you read my post again I stated I know of a company that used it in the past. I never said at this moment in time. Therefore I can’t state for sure that they do now. Only surmise that it’s highly likely. The reason I won’t go into more depth publicly is that due to the complexity of how I got this information they would immediately know who I am. I like to sleep at night if you know what I mean. You obviously don’t have to believe a word I say. Why would you? There does seem to be a little bit of double standards here though @trancemonkey as in we are expected to believe everything you say (and I believe you are genuine) but you make statements defending the randomness of slots as if you are speaking on behalf of the entire industry then by your own admission state that there is rigged software out there and you can’t speak for everyone. The problem for us then is we don’t know who’s “at it” and who isn’t. Still waiting for a reply on the millionaire question.
 

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