Think slots are rigged? Read this first...

trancemonkey

Meister Member
For those of you that think slots (and roulette, and the rest) are rigged / compensated, consider the following questions first.

1. Can you prove beyond doubt using statistical evidence that games are rigged / compensated? Or is it just purely based on a "feeling"?
2. It is illegal (in regulated markets) and the software providers risk losing their licence, and compensating or rigging would be fraud, and therefore a criminal offence. The directors, or the software developers, or both, could go to prison for quite a long time. Is it really worth it - i would seriously doubt many people would say yes.
3. Given that casinos can make more money by running lower RTP versions of the games, why do they need to "rig" games when they already have the edge? They already have the ability to increase that edge should they so choose by running games at a lower RTP where games providers supply them.
4. Nearly all games providers are in competition with each other - so why would they then work together on complex and illegal software?
5. If i was going to compensate a game (and i've done compensated Cat C, B4 and some old B3 games) why would we compensate in such a way to make it OBVIOUS that it's ripping your arms off. The whole point of compensation is control - so if we CAN control the games, why make it so obvious and make them play so badly. Pissing players off does nothing other than lose customers, so your reasoning makes no sense.
6. Why has not one single pissed off disgruntled or sacked employee come out and spilled the beans. Ever.
7. Have you heard of Apophenia - it refers to a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. It's also called the "Gambler's Fallacy" -
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
- this describes exactly the feeling that you (and most of us on here) have when gambling. Except only a few make the jump to rigged. And yes this is a provable phenomenon. The POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS section might give you some insight, but all of it is worth a read - here's an excerpt:
The gambler's fallacy is a deep-seated cognitive bias and can be very hard to overcome. Educating individuals about the nature of randomness has not always proven effective in reducing or eliminating any manifestation of the fallacy. Participants in a study by Beach and Swensson in 1967 were shown a shuffled deck of index cards with shapes on them, and were instructed to guess which shape would come next in a sequence. The experimental group of participants was informed about the nature and existence of the gambler's fallacy, and were explicitly instructed not to rely on run dependency to make their guesses. The control group was not given this information. The response styles of the two groups were similar, indicating that the experimental group still based their choices on the length of the run sequence. This led to the conclusion that instructing individuals about randomness is not sufficient in lessening the gambler's fallacy
8. If you are still adamant we are a lying bunch of crooks, i'm a liar and just here to further the misdirection, then honestly - why play at all?

TM
 

paul7388

Meister Member
MM
Oh good another thread that will soon be filled with the same arguments of late.

Wondering why you have bothered posting that Trance as no matter how hard you try and explain things you will never convince some people that you are right.

Most of the above you tried to get through to people in the ask anything thread but some people will never understand or listen.

Anyway look forward to reading the responses and watching you try to stay calm once the usual suspects claim slots are rigged lol.

Have fun:D
 

Spikie

Full Member
The problem you have is that other people don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story ....

I get the feeling there is a giant brick wall you have been banging your head on , some people will never be convinced, think the earth is flat and nobody has ever been on the moon .

You will never change their opinion, I would just laugh at their ignorance instead. :D:thumbsup:
 

pinnit2014

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
mm1
Pretty much agree with all with the exception (more a caveat) of 2 - Been companies down the years, posting record profits with bathtubs filled with money, that made dodgy decisions to squeeze a few more pennies: never underestimate greed ;) (or some of the more recent footballers engaging in betting on football betting despite having a monthly salary worth more than my house:p). But yeah, probably in the context what's an extra percentage....

I'm liking the look of 5 - though that sounds more of a challenge for yourself to undertake in 2019

I'm sure Bloatgoat will come on here and agree with it all :D

I thought VS was the worst casino for me until i saw the cold stats...and they were the best near enough - my feeling was a tad out:)
 

Jono777

Meister Member
CAG
mm1
mm4
You been receiving PM's Trance or just having a bad day :p

As Paul says, ground you've covered many times and (eventually) convinced even me :oops:

This being said I can't help noticing patterns, changes in behavior when I change stakes, repeating dead spells and never repeating winning spells, the blatant use of cookies to track our big wins so we can't put up a valid argument when we lose on the same game, the memories slots have etc, etc, yawn, etc, etc, order more tin foil from amazon, etc, etc

Never taken offence nor any notice of the "liar" thing, that is just a total unwillingness to listen to validity rather than an attack on you personally :thumbsup:
 

pinnit2014

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
mm1
You been receiving PM's Trance or just having a bad day :p

As Paul says, ground you've covered many times and (eventually) convinced even me :oops:

This being said I can't help noticing patterns, changes in behavior when I change stakes, repeating dead spells and never repeating winning spells, the blatant use of cookies to track our big wins so we can't put up a valid argument when we lose on the same game, the memories slots have etc, etc, yawn, etc, etc, order more tin foil from amazon, etc, etc

Never taken offence nor any notice of the "liar" thing, that is just a total unwillingness to listen to validity rather than an attack on you personally :thumbsup:
Seems to be in contradiction here Jono, so which one is it: to Rig or not to Rig :p
 

Jono777

Meister Member
CAG
mm1
mm4
Seems to be in contradiction here Jono, so which one is it: to Rig or not to Rig :p
99.99 recurring not to rig but can't help myself, gamblers nature in my blood for so long, have to blame losing streaks on something lol :what:

*Sarcasm is aimed towards 'none believers' and not my beloved CM Family :thumsup:
 

pinnit2014

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
mm1
99.99 recurring not to rig but can't help myself, gamblers nature in my blood for so long, have to blame losing streaks on something lol :what:

*Sarcasm is aimed towards 'none believers' and not my beloved CM Family :thumsup:
I blame my Bonanza sessions on Mrs P - last night i blamed a 10x on a quid on the fact that i normally play with my laptop on the charge, whereas it wasn't.

And the dog looked at me in a menacing way. Almost like it wanted a 10x er. :mad:
 

lockinlove

Staring into the sun
PABaccred
Not sure why you created another thread when all of this has been said over and over but hey whatever floats your boat.

It comes down to this with people who truly believe things are rigged. You are a games developer so you have an obvious bias so no matter what you say or how loud you yell it, you have zero chance with them and it's truly a waste of time.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
For those of you that think slots (and roulette, and the rest) are rigged / compensated, consider the following questions first.

1. Can you prove beyond doubt using statistical evidence that games are rigged / compensated? Or is it just purely based on a "feeling"?
2. It is illegal (in regulated markets) and the software providers risk losing their licence, and compensating or rigging would be fraud, and therefore a criminal offence. The directors, or the software developers, or both, could go to prison for quite a long time. Is it really worth it - i would seriously doubt many people would say yes.
3. Given that casinos can make more money by running lower RTP versions of the games, why do they need to "rig" games when they already have the edge? They already have the ability to increase that edge should they so choose by running games at a lower RTP where games providers supply them.
4. Nearly all games providers are in competition with each other - so why would they then work together on complex and illegal software?
5. If i was going to compensate a game (and i've done compensated Cat C, B4 and some old B3 games) why would we compensate in such a way to make it OBVIOUS that it's ripping your arms off. The whole point of compensation is control - so if we CAN control the games, why make it so obvious and make them play so badly. Pissing players off does nothing other than lose customers, so your reasoning makes no sense.
6. Why has not one single pissed off disgruntled or sacked employee come out and spilled the beans. Ever.
7. Have you heard of Apophenia - it refers to a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. It's also called the "Gambler's Fallacy" -
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
- this describes exactly the feeling that you (and most of us on here) have when gambling. Except only a few make the jump to rigged. And yes this is a provable phenomenon. The POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS section might give you some insight, but all of it is worth a read - here's an excerpt:
The gambler's fallacy is a deep-seated cognitive bias and can be very hard to overcome. Educating individuals about the nature of randomness has not always proven effective in reducing or eliminating any manifestation of the fallacy. Participants in a study by Beach and Swensson in 1967 were shown a shuffled deck of index cards with shapes on them, and were instructed to guess which shape would come next in a sequence. The experimental group of participants was informed about the nature and existence of the gambler's fallacy, and were explicitly instructed not to rely on run dependency to make their guesses. The control group was not given this information. The response styles of the two groups were similar, indicating that the experimental group still based their choices on the length of the run sequence. This led to the conclusion that instructing individuals about randomness is not sufficient in lessening the gambler's fallacy
8. If you are still adamant we are a lying bunch of crooks, i'm a liar and just here to further the misdirection, then honestly - why play at all?

TM
Yes. When me and Conker saw you on the IGT stand a couple of days back, I half expected you to be wearing a sandwich board with that printed on it. :D
It was nice to go 5 days without hearing the R or C-word!:lolup:
 

Playford7

Senior Member
MM
For those of you that think slots (and roulette, and the rest) are rigged / compensated, consider the following questions first.

1. Can you prove beyond doubt using statistical evidence that games are rigged / compensated? Or is it just purely based on a "feeling"?
2. It is illegal (in regulated markets) and the software providers risk losing their licence, and compensating or rigging would be fraud, and therefore a criminal offence. The directors, or the software developers, or both, could go to prison for quite a long time. Is it really worth it - i would seriously doubt many people would say yes.
3. Given that casinos can make more money by running lower RTP versions of the games, why do they need to "rig" games when they already have the edge? They already have the ability to increase that edge should they so choose by running games at a lower RTP where games providers supply them.
4. Nearly all games providers are in competition with each other - so why would they then work together on complex and illegal software?
5. If i was going to compensate a game (and i've done compensated Cat C, B4 and some old B3 games) why would we compensate in such a way to make it OBVIOUS that it's ripping your arms off. The whole point of compensation is control - so if we CAN control the games, why make it so obvious and make them play so badly. Pissing players off does nothing other than lose customers, so your reasoning makes no sense.
6. Why has not one single pissed off disgruntled or sacked employee come out and spilled the beans. Ever.
7. Have you heard of Apophenia - it refers to a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. It's also called the "Gambler's Fallacy" -
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
- this describes exactly the feeling that you (and most of us on here) have when gambling. Except only a few make the jump to rigged. And yes this is a provable phenomenon. The POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS section might give you some insight, but all of it is worth a read - here's an excerpt:
The gambler's fallacy is a deep-seated cognitive bias and can be very hard to overcome. Educating individuals about the nature of randomness has not always proven effective in reducing or eliminating any manifestation of the fallacy. Participants in a study by Beach and Swensson in 1967 were shown a shuffled deck of index cards with shapes on them, and were instructed to guess which shape would come next in a sequence. The experimental group of participants was informed about the nature and existence of the gambler's fallacy, and were explicitly instructed not to rely on run dependency to make their guesses. The control group was not given this information. The response styles of the two groups were similar, indicating that the experimental group still based their choices on the length of the run sequence. This led to the conclusion that instructing individuals about randomness is not sufficient in lessening the gambler's fallacy
8. If you are still adamant we are a lying bunch of crooks, i'm a liar and just here to further the misdirection, then honestly - why play at all?

TM
So your saying there is a chance they may be rigged....
 

Siohmy

Full Member
I will agree with pinnit2014 insomuch that I can never 100% rule out dodgy things going on. But then I am from a poker background and went through the UltimateBet super-admin fiasco in addition to the Full Tilt Ponzi scheme. Never underestimate the ability for greedy people to go to any lengths to get more money.

That said, all of what you say Trancemonkey is what I believe. There can be some pretty awfully designed slots and the proliferation of these in the hyper HV age is likely contributing to players views on this subject. Designers have cottoned onto a way of getting players money quicker and that, more than “rigged” slots is where the greed element is taking over. TRTP largely stays the same but the throughput goes through the roof.
 

bamberfishcake

Full Member
Glad you posted this @trancemonkey because as a noob I come to Casinomeister with a thirst for knowledge. I know it might be groundhog Day for some, hopefully I'll get to that stage, but I'm not the best at finding info it seems and whilst I was in this way of thinking it's nice to get some validation and extra pointers.
 

SpinUk

Senior Member
PABnonaccred
MM
You been receiving PM's Trance or just having a bad day :p

As Paul says, ground you've covered many times and (eventually) convinced even me :oops:

This being said I can't help noticing patterns, changes in behavior when I change stakes, repeating dead spells and never repeating winning spells, the blatant use of cookies to track our big wins so we can't put up a valid argument when we lose on the same game, the memories slots have etc, etc, yawn, etc, etc, order more tin foil from amazon, etc, etc

Never taken offence nor any notice of the "liar" thing, that is just a total unwillingness to listen to validity rather than an attack on you personally :thumbsup:
Mate they dont need to track you using cookies when each spin transaction has a player ID attached to it.

Now, as for waves/patterns of wins and whether a slot plays “hot” or “cold” I doubt we will ever get a proper answer. But they undoubtably exist. And semantics can cover every use of the word “random” to suit the accusation.
 

Jono777

Meister Member
CAG
mm1
mm4
Was referring to the pop up you get on newer games where you have to click to allow cookies before you can start spinning bud :)

Your spot on in what you say tho but I have hung up my foil suit for good, Hard to do so but couldn't argue with reason.

I did spot a HUGE sign of compensation earlier however which blew random out of the window, in fact it brings 2 instances to mind, ironically from the same provider, willing however to accept any rational form of explanation ;)

Tried (for the first time ever) the 1-line tactic on the pimped tourney at VS. Fluked the win spins which re-triggered to 17 win spins in total.
Now random would dictate, some small, some medium and possibly if luck in some big wins.

Nope, all 17 wins were 3OAK letter wins for 3x, that to me is far from random and sign of some sort of compensation code kicking in, hell even 16 lowest win and one slightly higher I would not post this but c'mon all 17! :rolleyes:

Regular players of Reactoonz wil also notice another compensation script kick in when the test tubes are filling up nicely and the game decides "I don't wanna pay right now" you will get Alteration where it will change 3 or even less symbols!

These points do not indicate a rigged feeling, they indicate more of an AWP feeling which after 28 years of gambling in general is bloody hard to shake, even if I am later proven totally stupid ;)
 

Buffalo Bill

Experienced Member
MM
I for one draw comfort in the thought that the slots are rigged.....but only when i lose. Can't imagine a slot company designing a rigged slot that regularly pays out some pretty big wins like DOA, and when I'm on a streak when nearly everything i touch is paying out its the straightest thing going.
 

dionysus

can turn wine into water
CAG
MM
I'm good with the new thread....it doesnt require a rehash and convo like AMA which is ongoing..it's just a brief reiteration of key points, and new members can give it a once over without having to wade through the 100 some odd pages of the other.
There's always new players popping through, so never hurts for a quick heads up rather than being bombarded with Qs youve already addressed
 
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