Think slots are rigged? Read this first...

[trancemonkey]

It has been explained plausibly that slots can come with different rtp settings and that casinos have to display which one they are using. As I understand it this is done by removing certain symbols and therefore lessening the amount of winning combinations. That seems logical and wouldn’t need any other form of “interference”. My point here is that when you have a game like roulette that has a fixed house edge of around 2.7% (European roulette) the programming I would have thought would be relatively straight forward. As in there are 37 numbers and the rng spits one of those out for every spin. I know for a fact that the provider who I didn’t name were running their roulette at a shockingly low 75%. Anything lower than 97.3% can only be achieved if they were using dodgy software or rngs. Which tells you when they were audited/tested whatever you want to call it there are either ways of doing it that can’t be detected or the testing is not sufficient.

They clearly weren't tested

 

[LordSilver]

People believed the earth was flat, because they didn't have the knowledge, same goes for slots, if you have knowledge about them then you understand how they work and that they are not rigged (not counting rogue casinos and dodgy jurisdictions). But when people get emotional (and people do get emotional when it's about their own money!) they are driven by feelings rather than common sense.

 

[goatwack]

People believed the earth was flat, because they didn't have the knowledge, same goes for slots, if you have knowledge about them then you understand how they work and that they are not rigged (not counting rogue casinos and dodgy jurisdictions). But when people get emotional (and people do get emotional when it's about their own money!) they are driven by feelings rather than common sense.

People believe the earth is flat in 2019. I liken them to the 'Not Rigged' side

 

[snorky510238]

They clearly weren't tested

When was testing introduced?

 

[xexe]

Well let's see the evidence you have that he is wrong?

So far we've had historic instances of poker software and hi-lo gambles which are very basic programmes and nothing like slots, and were very likely not audited in a decent jurisdiction from the start.

We have the GameArt demo scandal, but this was a developer maths model released in error via demo links instead of the compliant real-play version.

Think those demo videos I do sometimes where I have access to a menu to trigger things for purposes of demonstration.

So I am asking you to show me evidence of any slots games licensed and audited in the UK or Europe that have subsequently been proven to be rigged?

This of course would be in conjunction with records of the colossal fines and sanctions the licensed developers and operators would get for providing them in the first place.

You know, 'let's skim the players of a few % RTP over hundreds of thousands of spins and make us and the operator an extra 2k in profit to enjoy before the £5m fine hits us'

I never said they were rigged, I even specifically said that I don't think they're rigged. I also specified that if they were rigged, it has nothing to do with lowering the RTP so perhaps read my previous comments before you reply again because we're in agreement and you're literally arguing against a strawman. All I said is that nobody can know for sure if none of them are rigged in a way that for example makes them more streaky because there's literally no way to prove that. I'll emphasize for a 5th time now that I don't believe that to be the case.

I'm trying my best to get out of this conversation because it's not leading anywhere when I'm the only one here of the philosophy "agree to disagree", but I just felt I had to reply to the literal strawman that implies me saying slots are rigged to lower RTP when the main point in my first post was the literal opposite of just that.

 

[Siohmy]

I don't know what this thread proves really. There'll be those that believe that slots are bent and others who believe it to be holier than Mother Theresa's chu-

Neither 'camp' is going to be swayed. We'd get more out a 'Are vegans normal?' discussion

Don’t be ridiculous, no way vegans are “normal”.

 

[snorky510238]

I think a big problem occurs with the context in which we use and interpret the word “rigged”. There is a big difference between rigged to cheat a player and rigged to make them more streaky. I would say that the reputable casinos are “fair” some of the less reputable ones I would have major doubts. The one thing I would conclude across the board is that whether it’s fair or not there is some way that providers are able to create hot and cold streaks on slots.

 

[trancemonkey]

When was testing introduced?

For UKGC licenced games, i believe it was the 2009 Gaming Act that required all games to be laboratory tested. Before that, the industry "self-policed".

 

[trancemonkey]

I never said they were rigged, I even specifically said that I don't think they're rigged. I also specified that if they were rigged, it has nothing to do with lowering the RTP so perhaps read my previous comments before you reply again because we're in agreement and you're literally arguing against a strawman. All I said is that nobody can know for sure if none of them are rigged in a way that for example makes them more streaky because there's literally no way to prove that. I'll emphasize for a 5th time now that I don't believe that to be the case.

I'm trying my best to get out of this conversation because it's not leading anywhere when I'm the only one here of the philosophy "agree to disagree", but I just felt I had to reply to the literal strawman that implies me saying slots are rigged to lower RTP when the main point in my first post was the literal opposite of just that.

To be fair, i had no issue with most of what you said. But you inferred i had no idea what i was talking about, and was guessing... which is quite clearly untrue. Apologies if that's not what you meant.

 

[snorky510238]

For UKGC licenced games, i believe it was the 2009 Gaming Act that required all games to be laboratory tested. Before that, the industry "self-policed".

“License to kill” then before 2009.

 

[TheAddict]

TACH=full]104293[/ATTACH] ....

 

[trancemonkey]

“License to kill” then before 2009.

I have no idea... I wasn't involved in online back then. But whether it was or wasn't has no bearing on the situation now, some 14 years later.

And my apologies, it was the 2005 Gambling Act...

 

[ev4me]

Joker Pro from NetEnt gives the impression that wilds are easier to come by when you reach the bonus room, but visually it is a bit deceptive because the wild to create the "hotspot" is so much harder to come by than the wilds in any other position. So here again we have the "scratchcard" type scenario. Other than this, I generally find NetEnt games to give a visually accurate representation of the true odds and not have fillers like some of the other providers.

 

[brianmon]

Joker Pro from NetEnt gives the impression that wilds are easier to come by when you reach the bonus room, but visually it is a bit deceptive because the wild to create the "hotspot" is so much harder to come by than the wilds in any other position. So here again we have the "scratchcard" type scenario. Other than this, I generally find NetEnt games to give a visually accurate representation of the true odds and not have fillers like some of the other providers.

Apart from Secret of the stones, where you constantly get wilds on reels 4 and 5, which are always in exactly the wrong position to make a win

 

[brianmon]

For those of you that think slots (and roulette, and the rest) are rigged / compensated, consider the following questions first.

1. Can you prove beyond doubt using statistical evidence that games are rigged / compensated? Or is it just purely based on a "feeling"?
2. It is illegal (in regulated markets) and the software providers risk losing their licence, and compensating or rigging would be fraud, and therefore a criminal offence. The directors, or the software developers, or both, could go to prison for quite a long time. Is it really worth it - i would seriously doubt many people would say yes.
3. Given that casinos can make more money by running lower RTP versions of the games, why do they need to "rig" games when they already have the edge? They already have the ability to increase that edge should they so choose by running games at a lower RTP where games providers supply them.
4. Nearly all games providers are in competition with each other - so why would they then work together on complex and illegal software?
5. If i was going to compensate a game (and i've done compensated Cat C, B4 and some old B3 games) why would we compensate in such a way to make it OBVIOUS that it's ripping your arms off. The whole point of compensation is control - so if we CAN control the games, why make it so obvious and make them play so badly. Pissing players off does nothing other than lose customers, so your reasoning makes no sense.
6. Why has not one single pissed off disgruntled or sacked employee come out and spilled the beans. Ever.
7. Have you heard of Apophenia - it refers to a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. It's also called the "Gambler's Fallacy" -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

- this describes exactly the feeling that you (and most of us on here) have when gambling. Except only a few make the jump to rigged. And yes this is a provable phenomenon. The POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS section might give you some insight, but all of it is worth a read - here's an excerpt:
The gambler's fallacy is a deep-seated cognitive bias and can be very hard to overcome. Educating individuals about the nature of randomness has not always proven effective in reducing or eliminating any manifestation of the fallacy. Participants in a study by Beach and Swensson in 1967 were shown a shuffled deck of index cards with shapes on them, and were instructed to guess which shape would come next in a sequence. The experimental group of participants was informed about the nature and existence of the gambler's fallacy, and were explicitly instructed not to rely on run dependency to make their guesses. The control group was not given this information. The response styles of the two groups were similar, indicating that the experimental group still based their choices on the length of the run sequence. This led to the conclusion that instructing individuals about randomness is not sufficient in lessening the gambler's fallacy
8. If you are still adamant we are a lying bunch of crooks, i'm a liar and just here to further the misdirection, then honestly - why play at all?

TM

As a player, as well as working in the industry. Do you ever have to remind yourself of any of these points, when you're playing?

 

[trancemonkey]

As a player, as well as working in the industry. Do you ever have to remind yourself of any of these points, when you're playing?

Absolutely... even when playing my own games during development it can feel like the game has "gone on the take" or is "in a hot streak". It's amazing how "not random" ransom games can be...

 

[dunover]

Absolutely... even when playing my own games during development it can feel like the game has "gone on the take" or is "in a hot streak". It's amazing how "not random" ransom games can be...

A freudian slip there - yep, your balance is cetainly held to ransom.

 

[trancemonkey]

A freudian slip there - yep, your balance is cetainly held to ransom.

Rumbled...

 

[BrianGhattas]

After seeing Kim’s latest fake money stream, I think they’re rigged.

 

[Sasukdcf]

As someone has already said it’s not a question of being rigged it’s more a question of how they are designed and how you are told they are designed....

Every casino will tell you the stakes are irrelevant to the outcome...

Well 15 years of playing suggests otherwise!

I am a high stakes player and although I have had lots of fairly large wins I have never had one that comes close while playing larger stakes to the countless pro rata massive wins on lower stakes....

Although the percentage of my play maybe slightly higher on the lower stakes end of the scale ( but not that much)

I would have no clue how many times I have hit 1000x payouts on £1 and £2 stakes...

Hundreds of times over the years with many way higher than that....

And how many times have I hit the same sortnof return playing £10 stakes and upwards....

Hold on I’ll get my calculator....


Once!

And moreover the game play blatantly changes as you increase stakes and I have brought this up countless times with casinos...

I have even offered to prove it by offering to sit and watch a session with the stakes and returns hidden and I’ll tell you whether it’s being played on low or high stakes just by the way it plays.... ( on certain games )

The most blatant that I know is 6 appeal where you can see the difference instantly..

Get up to £6 stakes and over and dice disappear and if you do hit 3 or more you can be fairly sure at least one of the blues will be a 1!!!

So rigged may not be the right word
But I would put my life on the fact there is a definitive correlation ( negative ) between stake and feature return.

But that doesn’t break and laws even if there is cos the laws are a joke and the GC is a joke that’s so far behind the casinos it’s almost funny!!

 

[sledge13]

^^^^ 100% correct on increasing stake, we all know that as players right back to DOA arriving on the scene, you aint gonna get the 8000x hot on £2 stakes...TRANCEMONKEY?!?!?!?

 

[trancemonkey]

^^^^ 100% correct on increasing stake, we all know that as players right back to DOA arriving on the scene, you aint gonna get the 8000x hot on £2 stakes...TRANCEMONKEY?!?!?!?

^^^ 100% incorrect on increasing stake - on most games (i say most because there may be some - The Sky's The Limit is one i can think of that does change as you stake up) the stake is irrelevant.

 

[eizei]

I've said this before but here I go again. Over the years I've heard this theory about higher stakes paying less countless times but a funny detail is that depending on who's telling the story the stakes are always different. Someone who usually plays on 20p stakes might be saying they never ever hit anything big on 80p-1€ bets and another one who's usually playing those stakes will complain how they never hit anything when playing above 2€ bet. Then you have the people playing with 5€ bets complaining about the same thing when choosing to go with 10-20€ bets. So what's the magic stake where the games still payout big and what's the cutoff for when it rarely happens anymore? If the answer is different based on who you ask then the quite obvious answer is there is none. Most people have a range of bets they usually stick to while occasionally going for higher bets. How is it in any way surprising that you will see less if any big wins on those higher stakes that you play less often and probably for a smaller amount of spins? Even if you don't the odds for those massive wins are so incredibly low it's pretty stupid to draw any conclusions from the circumstances of those wins. Might be for example you hit all your big wins when playing around midnight and never when you play in the morning. Does that mean the slots are more likely to pay in the evening? Probably not.

 

[xexe]

I read lockedinlove's project to play 1 million vikings go berserk spins and she noticed that every time she tried higher stakes, her RTP went to shit. So I went on slot tracker and it proved to be true, over like hundreds of thousands of spins. Then I went on other games and yggdrasil in specific were impeccable. Almost literally every single game of theirs had the normal ~95% SRP, but the actual RTP was always hovering around 80-85% for every single game. I was going to link to them just now but yggdrasil and all their games appear to be gone from my slot tracker. Can others see their games still?

We're not talking a statistical normality, we're talking winning the power ball with 1 ticket every day for 10 years- kind of statistics, like literally impossible statistics.

BTW I'm not saying it's rigged, it could just be the slot tracker being buggy or something. But on the other hand, I doubt the RNG-testers would test what'd happen if you sit on one stake for a while and then raise it.

 

[mack341]

I read lockedinlove's project to play 1 million vikings go berserk spins and he noticed that every time he tried higher stakes, his RTP went to shit. So I went on slot tracker and it proved to be true, over like hundreds of thousands of spins. Then I went on other games and yggdrasil in specific were impeccable. Almost literally every single game of theirs had the normal ~95% SRP, but the actual RTP was always hovering around 80-85% for every single game. I was going to link to them just now but yggdrasil and all their games appear to be gone from my slot tracker. Can others see their games still?

We're not talking a statistical normality, we're talking winning the power ball with 1 ticker every day for 10 years kind of statistics, like literally impossible statistics.

BTW I'm not saying it's rigged, it could just be the slot tracker being buggy or something. But on the other hand, I doubt the RNG-testers would test what'd happen if you sit on one stake for a while and then raise it.

just a heads up xexe but lockedinlove is of the female persuasion