Think slots are rigged? Read this first...

[Jono777]

Simmo did something to the effect of this - maybe it's something he'll attack again.

Oops my bad, Afterlife:Inferno, I was even part of that project lol

But yes, that is a good tactic and only hindered in this particular case IMO by the fact it was one of the much smaller providers out there

 

[trancemonkey]

Thing is I have plenty of ideas that may work wonders or get rubbished, as I'm sure others do too.

Bottom line is developers need to approach the seasoned player, something I believe they've never done other than post development - pre release.

Previously successful slots, combined with knowledgeable player input and Hey Presto!

Or maybe some of us (me?) are players and so try to push the boundaries. Megaways is the new kid on the block... it has already saturated and this will likely kill it in the next year or so. But it was a neat idea and kudos to BTG, even though arguably others have done it better.

@Jono777 - feel free to PM me with your ideas. I'm always on the lookout for new ideas for games. It won't be online but it might end up on site if it's good and you are happy for me to make it. If nothing else, I can talk it through with you and help you make it something you can maybe give to an online company. And I can certainly go through the ideation process with you and you can see why some of your ideas would/wouldn't work.

 

[dionysus]

Or maybe some of us (me?) are players and so try to push the boundaries. Megaways is the new kid on the block... it has alredy saturated and this will likely kill it in the next year or so. But it was a neat idea and kudos to BTG, even though arguably others have done it better.

@Jono777 - feel free to PM me with your ideas. I'm always on the lookout for new ideas for games. It won't be online but it might end up on site if it's good. If nothing else, I can talk it through with you and help you make it something you can maybe give to an online company. And I can certainly go through the ideation process with you and you can see why some of your ideas would/wouldn't work.

don't tempt us - I've been running a line through my head for a couple years now

 

[Jono777]

Or maybe some of us (me?) are players and so try to push the boundaries. Megaways is the new kid on the block... it has alredy saturated and this will likely kill it in the next year or so. But it was a neat idea and kudos to BTG, even though arguably others have done it better.

@Jono777 - feel free to PM me with your ideas. I'm always on the lookout for new ideas for games. It won't be online but it might end up on site if it's good. If nothing else, I can talk it through with you and help you make it something you can maybe give to an online company. And I can certainly go through the ideation process with you and you can see why some of your ideas would/wouldn't work.

Fantastic stuff Trance, I'll look in to doing just that this coming week

 

[Sasukdcf]

Correct.. of course it would be equal. That's statistics.

And yes it's true that we "could alter the variance as you staked up. But each new set of maths requires testing, tuning, homolgating. It's not quick and cheap to do.
Plus you still haven't given me one good reason why we would make it worse for the high rollers... You know, the ones that basically keep us all in a job.

And I didn't allude to anything about "the sky's the limit" other than that they changed the RTP as you staked up.

Also, if you want to do points scoring, I'll match, and beat, your fifteen years of playing with my 24 years of playing, and 20 years of making games.

Bet I’ve lost more than you tho

To confirm yes you are right Re sky’s the limit..: I couldn’t remember what you had said but I knew you had factored something into it regarding RTP but I did say it was something along the lines of... rather than quoting you verbatim!

As for you reckoning that the test would land equal... it’s a pointless question in hindsite as I would expect you to say that... and you would expect me to disagree and as I don’t have 2000 people and a zillion dollar bankroll to try it we will never know!

What I will say tho is that the industry is still exceptionally cloak and dagger and the fact that very little information is available to the player certainly doesn’t help the level of suspicion....

I Recently had an issue with a game which is a megaways type affair...spinal tap...

After 2 months of arguing that the game rules and payout was flawed and fundementally incorrect I finally decided to send a letter before action to the casino....

My calculations were that the spin I hit should have paid £22,800 but it paid only £1600...

I argued this vehemently and got nowhere..

Eventually I was offered £5k which as it was just before Xmas I decided to take albeit with reservations... games are incorrectly designed, fuck ups do happen and games do break and malfunction.... but it’s nigh on impossible to get to speak to anyone about it..: I don’t think the industry helps itself in that respect

 

[dionysus]

What I will say tho is that the industry is still exceptionally cloak and dagger and the fact that very little information is available to the player certainly doesn’t help the level of suspicion....

But isnt that to be expected? It's a competetive market, so it shouldnt be surprsiing theyre very tight-lipped about their IP - no different than secret sauces, 11 herbs and spices, patents etc
I mean, nearly NOONE comes on here to explain maths, yet trance has - but he's still bound by nda's, work ethic etc but supplies as much as he's able, far far more than nearly all his brethren

 

[labeled]

Has anyone asked what timeline the rtp's are set for? A million spins? Six million? The expected lifetime of the game?

 

[trancemonkey]

Has anyone asked what timeline the rtp's are set for? A million spins? Six million? The expected lifetime of the game?

RTPs are precisely calculated over billions of spins in order to get to as close to an exact number as possible.

However to get to within, say, 1% of the target RTP very much depends on the game and the volatility and if it has progressives of not. For something like starburst I'd expect it to be pretty close after a million spins or so. For something like most Megaways games or HV games, this could be much higher. Probably over 5m.

 

[labeled]

So am I wrong in saying this is a bs thread? The software is set to do what it does over billions of spins. K. Accepted.

But surely the software differentiates between spin amounts, no? It should take a billion spins at a min bet for the avg to play out its expected rtp.

So everyone saying games change if you up your bet aren't saying the game is rigged.. they're acknowledging that the software is doing what it should... Because logically more players spin at .20 than .80. so if you move up to.80 (or $2, 10, 80, 100 etc), you're jumping into a new pool of what the game pays. Basically each bet AMT is its new game, right? Its new billion spins?

That doesn't seem rigged in any way, it seems logical. So what the heck is thevfight about?

 

[trancemonkey]

So am I wrong in saying this is a bs thread? The software is set to do what it does over billions of spins. K. Accepted.

But surely the software differentiates between spin amounts, no? It should take a billion spins at a min bet for the avg to play out its expected rtp.

So everyone saying games change if you up your bet aren't saying the game is rigged.. they're acknowledging that the software is doing what it should... Because logically more players spin at .20 than .80. so if you move up to.80 (or $2, 10, 80, 100 etc), you're jumping into a new pool of what the game pays. Basically each bet AMT is its new game, right? Its new billion spins?

That doesn't seem rigged in any way, it seems logical. So what the heck is thevfight about?

Well, there are no "pools" but you are right that stake us irrelevant.

Also, people that say "I never have the same experience when I bet up" are almost always not playing the same number of games at a higher stake.

If I start at 20p, play 500 games, win and stake up to 80p but only play 200 games, there is a good likelihood the game won't feel the same because a) random distribution and b) you simply aren't playing similar sessions.

 

[trancemonkey]

So am I wrong in saying this is a bs thread?

Why is it a BS thread? There are many prime on here who, for whatever reason, think slots are rigged. Apart from the obvious "Then why play?" question, I wanted to give people things to think about. Is that a problem?

 

[trancemonkey]

Bet I’ve lost more than you tho

To confirm yes you are right Re sky’s the limit..: I couldn’t remember what you had said but I knew you had factored something into it regarding RTP but I did say it was something along the lines of... rather than quoting you verbatim!

As for you reckoning that the test would land equal... it’s a pointless question in hindsite as I would expect you to say that... and you would expect me to disagree and as I don’t have 2000 people and a zillion dollar bankroll to try it we will never know!

What I will say tho is that the industry is still exceptionally cloak and dagger and the fact that very little information is available to the player certainly doesn’t help the level of suspicion....

I Recently had an issue with a game which is a megaways type affair...spinal tap...

After 2 months of arguing that the game rules and payout was flawed and fundementally incorrect I finally decided to send a letter before action to the casino....

My calculations were that the spin I hit should have paid £22,800 but it paid only £1600...

I argued this vehemently and got nowhere..

Eventually I was offered £5k which as it was just before Xmas I decided to take albeit with reservations... games are incorrectly designed, fuck ups do happen and games do break and malfunction.... but it’s nigh on impossible to get to speak to anyone about it..: I don’t think the industry helps itself in that respect

What was the fault?

 

[trancemonkey]

What I will say tho is that the industry is still exceptionally cloak and dagger and the fact that very little information is available to the player certainly doesn’t help the level of suspicion....

What information do you think would help you?

 

[labeled]

Wrong thread. Lol damn phone.

 

[Sasukdcf]

What was the fault?

They reckoned this result only constituted 3 wins even though the game advertises 2187 ways to win....

Go figure!!

 

[sufferinsilence]

They reckoned this result only constituted 3 wins even though the game advertises 2187 ways to win....

Go figure!!

If this is the wild reels feature they only count as 1 way unless there's more of them landing on the same reel. So 1 way 7oak of the guy, 1 way of Q and 1 way of J.

Say for example 2 of the wild reels land on reel 1 and 3 on reel 5 then it would be 6 ways 7oak guy, Q en J.

 

[Sasukdcf]

And @trancemonkey

I totally get what you are saying regarding playing less spins at higher stakes....

But to go back to one of my earlier comments...

My method ( right or wrong, and it’s just how I play)

I will stake at a level that’s around 100th of my pot....

So therefore my usual MO is to deposit £200 and play £2 spin...

If I get lucky I’ll draw my 2 and play with the rest ( free money )

This is roughly how I have always played...

And as I have said before I have hit literally countless big wins at around the £2 stake...:


But Never ( bar the one exception in 15 years )

Hit a 1000x feature at £5 stake or above

So my point is that I play a similar way and although I concede not quite as frequently that I play higher stakes it’s by no means a rarity either... and therefore my question would be why would this be...

Logically speaking from your camp... the only reason can be pure bad luck... although I would argue how long can you blame bad luck before you start to think there maybe other factors involved.....

As for what information would help...

An exact and complete breakdown of the law regarding RTP calculations and how the testing is carried out and on what stakes and over what number of spins....

I was fortunate enough to stumble upon a very high up member of Nmi testing house when I was enquiring about a progressive jackpot on coral site that never once paid out ( it was stuck at £100,000 for 3 years )

He explained they only tested the RTP of the game functions during standard play and were not asked to test the JP functionality!! Really !!

 

[Sasukdcf]

If this is the wild reels feature they only count as 1 way unless there's more of them landing on the same reel. So 1 way 7oak of the guy, 1 way of Q and 1 way of J.

Say for example 2 of the wild reels land on reel 1 and 3 on reel 5 then it would be 6 ways 7oak guy, Q en J.

Read the rules carefully that’s not what it says for heavy duty wilds tho .... which is what this feature was

 

[sufferinsilence]

Read the rules carefully that’s not what it says for heavy duty wilds tho .... which is what this feature was

So the rules are different from what the payouts are? I've played it myself and seen it being played on streams, the ways are always counted as 1 way if only 1 heavy duty wild lands on a reel.

Same as the wild reels feature on Genie Jackpots Megaways.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Spinal Tap rules say this about the heavy duty wild reels:
"Heavy Duty Wilds: The specified number of reels will be transformed into Wild Reels. Each Wild Reel can be triggered up to 5 times turning the Wild Reel into a multiplier."

So if only 1 lands the multiplier is 1. If you have 6 wild reels all with multiplier 1 it's going to be 3 times 1 way if you have 3 different symbols. That's how I understand this.

 

[Sasukdcf]

Read the rules carefully that’s not what it says for heavy duty wilds tho .... which is what this feature was

 

[sufferinsilence]

I see what you say but the 2187 ways is the amount of ways active during "rock mode". And I understand the confusion between the rules and what it says there. In your first screenshot the game will payout 12 ways of 7oak Q.

It's basically the same as the Genie Wilds feature on Genie Jackpots Megaways which says the following in the rules:
"GENIE WILDS - Genie will fly to a reel turning it into a Wild Reel. Genie can hit the same reel repeatedly, multiplying that Wild Reel to a maximum of x5."

 

[Sasukdcf]

Absolutely ( the screen shot of the game itself was actually the wrong one !! )

However 2 points of note

High voltage for instance
Very similar however it tells you in the rules wild reels only count as one position

Point 2

The screen shot with all the green wilds is what PP sent me showing the outcome
This clearly shows 3 wilds per reel not 1 wild per reel and this is where my argument stood was based... and by virtue of the fact they paid me £5k with no NDA I would be fairly sure in a court it would have stood up... thoughts ?

 

[mack341]

If paddy offered sasukdcf an extra £3,400 on top of the official game payout of £1,600, why would they feel the need to do this?

Is this common practice if everything is hunky dory with a game...

 

[sufferinsilence]

That we should all complain and get more money!

But yeah, either the rules are wrong(ly worded) or the payouts are wrong OR PP interpreted their own screenshot wrong. A wild reel isn't 3 wilds, but has always counted as 1 wild for that reel. I've played with real money, had a bash on fun money and saw it played by others and it all paid like I just said.

I'd like to hear from @trancemonkey on this one