Think slots are rigged? Read this first...

[shadow123]

Does the fact I programmed, and designed, compensated fruit machines and slots for 9 years also mean that my opinion counts too

To answer your last question, RTP monitoring is a requirement for UK - if a game falls outside its normal bounds then the games provider would be expected to investigate. It may be nothing is wrong (we use a 95% confidence level, so it's not 100% accurate) but if there is something wrong, especially a game under-paying, then the UKGC must be told. If a game is over paying it is not necessary (if my understanding is correct) to tell the UKGC as that is not a player disadvantage.

Of course your opinion counts, things have moved on a bit from the wild west days in arcades and online,i have no idea what hoops you have to jump
through with compliance nowadays, but there has always and will always be a dodgy side to this industry and I am sure some things still go on

 

[shadow123]

Given that test houses also have to check the code, unless it is obfuscated extremely well, and the casinos couldn't notice it, it would get found out. And if a test house finds something like that, then the provider would be screwed...

Just to be clear, I am only talking about regulated markets. What goes on in other countries where it is still the wild west, I dread to think

It was very possible to hide stuff in code if you wanted to, more so in the past when there less tools to check it, its so much easier to
code now,then you could stick in lumps of machine code that would drive anyone to follow it mad.In the earlier day i wrote stuff entirely
in z80 machine code,I knew every instruction off by heart and did fruit machines and a bookies settling calculator entirely in machine code,
I would challenge anyone to follow it all.

 

[johnnybagel]

I do play and its just a feeling i get on some games, like i said before the your rtp figures at VS show some games hitting close to rtp far sooner than
i would have expected.I may be talking crap, it has been known.I cant say i have tried any betting stratagies to try and exploit supposed
compensation, there is a danger of getting into it must pay soon mode and we all know where that ends up

Best thing you can do is treat every spin individually. That's what the RNG does. Then you dont end up thinking "it has to pay out soon" because you arent thinking of the session as one thing but as loads of individual spins.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Best thing you can do is treat every spin individually. That's what the RNG does. Then you dont end up thinking "it has to pay out soon" because you arent thinking of the session as one thing but as loads of individual spins.

That's all well and good but then why do some slots exhibit such traits as clustered wins or bonuses? Not just once but time after time. Also some slots you'll notice the same 'premium' win within the same session. For example BOD- you'll notice sessions where the full line of birds or anubis keeps appearing, other sessions it'll be a 4 OAK pharaoh etc. Also, get a line of a premium and you can kiss goodbye to a bonus within 100 spins after it.

I completely agree with shadow, some slots just feel compensated.

 

[trancemonkey]

That's all well and good but then why do some slots exhibit such traits as clustered wins or bonuses? Not just once but time after time.

Because this is exactly how random games behave...

Grab yourself a dice and roll it 100 times... you know the roll is random, and yet I guarantee you will "see" patterns in the results.

Areas of results where you only get high numbers, or odd ones, or the same one multiple times .. that's exactly how random works.

 

[goatwack]

I'm hearing that dirty word being touted again

No, not "Random".

"Dice"

 

[Jono777]

Been quietly investigating, studying, digging and finally can share my findings

Slots are most certainly NOT rigged, what Trance and CM tell us however is more rigged than a large bag full of rigged things

Yes, its Sunday afternoon and I'm bored

 

[Reelsoffun]

Reminds me of a 4 way 'fruit machine' surrounding a toy grabber. was 10p a go with wiins of £1, £2 and £5 avilable (that might even hold once per year). It also had 3 symbols for the feature, which was a teddy grabbing game.
I'd slip on the odd 10p in if xxx was on the reels or 2 bars, but unfortunately managed to get the feature a few times as well. winning a teddy once or twice. Just left the cheap peice of shit sitting in the payout tray for some kid to get excited over.
Sometimes I'd hear one that would be full of £1 coins (backing, dropping whatever) and I'd slip in a few quid to test it's potential, though within 30 seconds I'd always be mumbling 'wtf are you doing you idiot?'
Lost £6 during a full on tilt moment once (£15 for £9 return)

Was probably "Starturn" ran on JPM impact tech

All grabbers at places I worked were set to 30% which is typical

 

[TheAddict]

@Reelsoffun

yeah, had 3 stars for the grabber feature, and jpm makes sense.. Also good way to get the kids to move up a level from grabbers to the slots i suppose!

 

[DeidreB]

No, I didn't say that. I said it might not be picked up.

Compliance testing is to make sure the game is fair, legal and the maths are correct. It's not a replacement for your own QA.

Game compliance is one issue, its then bundled into a software package that adds a layer, then sold customized etc. Layer over layer of configuration over top of the games, add in errors ( known and unknown) player AI, ip tracking, and other configurable items. Its not straight forward one issue answer that creates the outcome. Blocked on a raft of sites from playing a game, fine on others all started after I won a few thousand on it. Experimented on many sites.

 

[MartiniMan]

Because this is exactly how random games behave...

I certainly don't believe slots, or any other online casino game are "rigged". But the RNG's used on these games, aren't seeded by a random source. Not all RNG's are created equal.

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[trancemonkey]

I certainly don't believe slots, or any other online casino game are "rigged". But the RNG's used on these games, aren't seeded by a random source. Not all RNG's are created equal.

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...which makes no statistical difference

 

[Bloatgoat]

Well thank you @trancemonkey for answerring my initial question. Proberly a casino secret right?

 

[The Reel Story]

Well thank you @trancemonkey for answerring my initial question. Proberly a casino secret right?

I think you were asking if you get more wins when you're using bonus money?

No, because that would mean the games are not random and, as has been consistently said, they are random.

They random in the morning, they're random in the evening, they're random when you think they're not and they're random when you think they are, they're random when you win, they're random when you lose.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that, they're random all of the time.. always... forever....... random.

Did I say random? Cause if I didn't, I meant to.
.
.
.
..
Random.

 

[Bloatgoat]

I still find it hard to believe, when playing 8 out of 10 times with real money, no bonus accepted, is alot more difficult then when accepting bonusses.

Really, you should try it.

 

[goatwack]

Gotta say from my brief 7 year slotting tenure that I've always personally found games to play 'better' whilst using a bonus.....the marked difference when going to real money was pronounced. In fact it was one of the first things that stuck out even back then!

Mind you, it was a long time ago. Maybe it was just coincidence or maybe I imagined it

 

[The Reel Story]

I've played with a tonne of bonuses and a tonne of times without bonuses. I am also a video content creator and affiliate for a few casino's who give me affiliate bonuses with almost all of my deposits.

I also claim plenty of regular casino bonuses (free spins, deposit bonsues) and deposit raw.

My conclusion? It's random.

I even have a record of 13 welcome bonuses that I used. 8 of those 13 were RIP's, the other 5 I cashed out profit either before hitting the bonus or making it through wagering.

I deposited raw the other day and got a 3300x bonus. Before that I did a £100 + £100 bonus and lost the lot.

You say 'playing 8 out of 10 times' but the problem is, you have no data to back it up. Again we come back to 'feeling'. Sorry to say, 'feeling' just isn't accurate :-/

 

[Bloatgoat]

No data to back that up? Right. What about my own deposits. Lol. I mean i recently took 65k from a casino. I still believe that i exploited a bug that was 'over' after 3 days straight winnings of respectively 20k, 25k and another 20k. They nerved that game straight after that.

 

[The Reel Story]

No data to back that up? Right. What about my own deposits. Lol. I mean i recently took 65k from a casino. I still believe that i exploited a bug that was 'over' after 3 days straight winnings of respectively 20k, 25k and another 20k. They nerved that game straight after that.

Do you have a record of those deposits? And what happened when you played with each of them? When you used bonuses and when you didn't? the rate of wins when using real and bonus funds? the size of and rate of bonuses when using real and bonus funds? That is what I mean by data. Something that can be analysed.

Your memory of your play (and mine, and anyones) is not reliable. That isn't data, because it is coloured by the gamblers fallacy (as addressed in the first post).

I've been doing a full session video every 2 days for almost a year. You can go and watch every single one of my videos if you like and see if there is a pattern. The early videos are all raw deposits. The recent ones are nearly all with bonus.

As for the wins? you could well have exploited a bug. Software isn't infallible. Mistakes are made (my company once miss-configured a million pound jackpot so it was 100x more likely to pay out than it should have been... and it did... that was a rough day). This is why all casino T&C say 'Technical malfunction voids all pays' and if a Casino catches it in time and proves it, they'll keep your winnings. If there was a problem, you got lucky that you took the money before they noticed

I've exploited a couple of casino loopholes for profit myself. Generally in bonus systems. It's entirely possible. But the generalisation that bonus funds pay out more indicates a level of intentional control. That doesn't exist. The games are random

 

[Bloatgoat]

But the generalisation that bonus funds pay out more indicates a level of intentional control.

Lmao. Your basicly buying more playtime with a house-edge where you have to wager that out for a minimum of 35 to 40x. Good luck with that.

 

[The Reel Story]

But the generalisation that bonus funds pay out more indicates a level of intentional control.

Lmao. Your basicly buying more playtime with a house-edge where you have to wager that out for a minimum of 35 to 40x. Good luck with that.

Yep... and? That's how bonuses work. As long as you stick to parachute bonuses there is no downside.

That doesn't change the fact that the behaviour of the games is the same regardless of what 'funds' you're playing with.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Maybe i'm a different breed of gambler, i dont know, but i am pretty sure that the 'randomness' is all within pattern and pre-designed checkerboards or some shit. In my opinion it comes down to the moment you do a deposit. It does'nt matter really which game you play, it almost feels like it's already determined whats going to happen. It's a randomness in a different way then we tend to believe big machines spitting out random numbers every second and serves the 10.000 spins a second it's doing all over the place.

If i deposit 50, start playing a random game, does'nt matter really which bet i stick (yes it does, but that's a different story), i'm pretty sure it will hit over the course a peak of the advertised RTP. If that's done by giving me small hits all the time or nearly play my balance away and strike with a bonus, does'nt matter. On the numbers it shows i had that avg win which equals to X % RTP, right?

So lets get that so called randomness thing again in the picture. I deposit 50 again, and hit a chilli bonus buy game of exactly 50. I select whatever comes at me and do not gamble the spins. It has to hit at this point. It has to comply with the above, percentage of my initial deposit. It does. When i'm lucky enough i get to double, when i'm not lucky it leaves me with in worst case, a 2/3rd left of a balance.

I can continue to play from this point, since i lost a part of my initial deposit, i have to play for a lower amount. And to take risk to that i have to gamble those spins as well. There's a 70% chance i will lose that. The gambling feature is another thing apart.

So yeah this happens pretty much in 8 out of 10 sessions by now. And when i win, yes i win too sometimes, it will hit a ceiling, and crumble down from that moment all the way down, no matter what or how i plan my strategy. It's like it was a better idea to hit withdrawl at that point, and not come back for a few days.

As i wrote before, i won 65k, with extra chilli, on a way that they now nerfed pretty much. I'll tell you what i've done to obtain that. I've kept buying 500 buys over and over again. On a avg it took 2500 up to 3500 (equals to 5 to 7 buys) before it started to throw big wins. All this time, the bigger win, left me with a positive balance over the 5 to 7 bonus games i bought. So i kind of realised if i kept going long enough, i would end up with a profit. And i did. 65k, lol, over a 40 euro initial deposit on that day when i started. My family and my gf was my witness back then.

I've tried to reproduce this over and over since then, but it never ever occured again. I've watched live streams of big players as well over the course of time, people who go apeshit on Chilli with 2k buys, they are getting nerfed to the bone.

So how was that possible, that i obtained a glitch in the software while it was supposed to be random? It's doing exactly whats it programmed todoand that is going by a predetermined checkerboard. Like, why would i invest in big hardware to spit numbers every second out towards perhaps a 100.000 playing players while i can offload all my systems and have a pre-set of rules and all that.

You know, it's not uncommon practice in the casino business to "alter" or "bend" the current rules on which slot providers have to comply on. I remember that germany has presented rules on slot machines that are everywhere in gasstation, spielhalle and all that, that a game has to exactly do 5 seconds, and the maximum money that could be spend in an hour has to be that amount, and the money thats leaving the machine has to be no longer then X hour etc etc.

The industry that created those machines, simply bypassed that law back when it was in effect, by putting Credits and not Money for instance. They bend the rules and they kept those slots going while being within the law. Now that makes me kind of think, that also online casino's could pose a trick that everybody gets a predetermined chance or some shit. You know i've bin countless of hours in landbased casino's in many years. One thing that i noted was the 8 to 16 blocks of slots. They are all hooked together, and everybody's thats playing their wagering is basicly random being distributed over the players.

I know trancemonkey did'nt believe the words coming out of the mouth from a VIP manager, but they stated (this is a different casino as well) that it was wagering of players vs 97% rtp. To break this down: All people deposits on that particular casino was randomly distributed. There goes the myth about internet casino play "worldwide".

I'm pretty much sure that this is the case in now many casino's. A new revenue model with bigger and higher TOD's (Time on device) and better crafted and designed bonus systems (apart from the typical wagering). You have a losing streak for a 2 weeks? Oh here's a small threat to keep you going. I can think of a few more reasons why the shift had occured.

So you see i really dont believe in the randomness anymore. At the end of the day a casino is just a business and slots are 75% of their biggest income. A slot out of control would be taken out asap or in this case, reprogrammed. I also believe that a slot that's hot today, can be more nerved to put players towards a newer released game to give that more of a excitement.

So yeah to protect the casino industry, i'm pretty sure that trancemonkey does'nt and will not answer "all" questions. Or at least answers them that is in his own best interest. I'm not really taking much from streamers too who take deals for their streams. There is or was a huge thread on this forums about casino affiliated streamers. Their best interest is to lure in new players too. You really shoud'nt stream for that purpose. There are people send out to oblivion spending their complete month cheque's and losing that, because they believed that what a streamer can do can occur to them as well.

As for the "Random within parameters" and the usual "max win being nerfed" i'm pretty sure on this one. I might as well do a session for you guys or anyone who disbelieves my posting here and show you what i'm talking about. I'll be going live for that matter, real deposit, real play, and debunk that randomness some say they are. Pattern. Pattern. Pattern.

 

[The Reel Story]

Ok, a lot to unpack here. I'll do it piece by piece.

Maybe i'm a different breed of gambler, i dont know, but i am pretty sure that the 'randomness' is all within pattern and pre-designed checkerboards or some shit. In my opinion it comes down to the moment you do a deposit. It does'nt matter really which game you play, it almost feels like it's already determined whats going to happen. It's a randomness in a different way then we tend to believe big machines spitting out random numbers every second and serves the 10.000 spins a second it's doing all over the place.

I can't make you believe me here, but simple fact is, it's not. All comes from (one or many) random number genrators (which have to be audited and accredited independently every year (I believe)).

If i deposit 50, start playing a random game, does'nt matter really which bet i stick (yes it does, but that's a different story), i'm pretty sure it will hit over the course a peak of the advertised RTP. If that's done by giving me small hits all the time or nearly play my balance away and strike with a bonus, does'nt matter. On the numbers it shows i had that avg win which equals to X % RTP, right?

So lets get that so called randomness thing again in the picture. I deposit 50 again, and hit a chilli bonus buy game of exactly 50. I select whatever comes at me and do not gamble the spins. It has to hit at this point. It has to comply with the above, percentage of my initial deposit. It does. When i'm lucky enough i get to double, when i'm not lucky it leaves me with in worst case, a 2/3rd left of a balance.

I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here, but that isn't how RTP works. Your RTP over a small session could be 0% or it could be 10000%. Just depends how lucky you are. I made a video explaining RTP. Search 'Return to Player (RTP) Explained - How Slots Work - Online Slots - The Reel Story' on YouTube if interested.

I can continue to play from this point, since i lost a part of my initial deposit, i have to play for a lower amount. And to take risk to that i have to gamble those spins as well. There's a 70% chance i will lose that. The gambling feature is another thing apart.

So yeah this happens pretty much in 8 out of 10 sessions by now. And when i win, yes i win too sometimes, it will hit a ceiling, and crumble down from that moment all the way down, no matter what or how i plan my strategy. It's like it was a better idea to hit withdrawl at that point, and not come back for a few days.

I mean... that's gambling? What you're describing is probably the typical behaviour of that slot based on it's mathematical model. It's designed for you to lose. Just because it is random doesn't mean the odds aren't against you. A dice is random, but if I only pay you on a 5 or a 6, I'm going to win in the long run. There is no strategy to slots.

As i wrote before, i won 65k, with extra chilli, on a way that they now nerfed pretty much. I'll tell you what i've done to obtain that. I've kept buying 500 buys over and over again. On a avg it took 2500 up to 3500 (equals to 5 to 7 buys) before it started to throw big wins. All this time, the bigger win, left me with a positive balance over the 5 to 7 bonus games i bought. So i kind of realised if i kept going long enough, i would end up with a profit. And i did. 65k, lol, over a 40 euro initial deposit on that day when i started. My family and my gf was my witness back then.

I've tried to reproduce this over and over since then, but it never ever occured again. I've watched live streams of big players as well over the course of time, people who go apeshit on Chilli with 2k buys, they are getting nerfed to the bone.

Highly unlikely anything has changed with the Chilli math model. What this sounds like is you hit an amazing run, and got super lucky and... now you can't repeat that so you think it's been nerfed? It's mathematical model is designed so you'll lose in the long run, so of course repeating a super lucky streak a second time will be very very hard. That's completely normal behaviour. I just got a 3300x win on Money Train on a bonus buy. That is my biggest multiplier win EVER (by a wide margin). I will probably never hit a win that big on that game again (because it's rare as all hell). That doesn't mean the game is nerfed. That's just statistics.

So how was that possible, that i obtained a glitch in the software while it was supposed to be random? It's doing exactly whats it programmed todoand that is going by a predetermined checkerboard. Like, why would i invest in big hardware to spit numbers every second out towards perhaps a 100.000 playing players while i can offload all my systems and have a pre-set of rules and all that.

On games with bonus buys, always buying a bonus is normally the 'optimal' way to play the game (I.E, it will give the max RTP). So it's not a bad way to play a slot like that as long as you have the bankroll to ride out the losses. Statistically, you'll eventually hit big and be in profit. Then you need to walk away.You were just lucky. Most people would have lost their balance by then. And generating random numbers doesn't take much hardware capacity at all. Especially as you normally have a 'True' RNG seeing a number of faster 'Pseudo RNG's' which is computationally much less expensive but still plenty random enough to be legal.

You know, it's not uncommon practice in the casino business to "alter" or "bend" the current rules on which slot providers have to comply on. I remember that germany has presented rules on slot machines that are everywhere in gasstation, spielhalle and all that, that a game has to exactly do 5 seconds, and the maximum money that could be spend in an hour has to be that amount, and the money thats leaving the machine has to be no longer then X hour etc etc.

Bending is no breaking. All businesses push to the edges of the law to maximise their advantage and their profits. Very few actually break the laws. Those that do break the laws do so in ways that are very difficult to detect, or where the punishment is very low, so the risk is worth the reward. In the instance of rigging slots, this just isn't the case. You would lose your license and that is the end of your business. There and then, kaput.

Casino's do dodgy stuff (as do most businesses), but it's far more low key. Such as (as we'll discuss below), offering affiliates fake money to play with. Taking game providers (or game providers taking casino managers) out for meals and drinks and.... other activities to get preferential deals on their games or to get their games into a certain casino. All of that stuff goes on. But that's low key stuff. Not really illegal and if you get caught, just fire the person responsible. No risk to the business at all.

The industry that created those machines, simply bypassed that law back when it was in effect, by putting Credits and not Money for instance. They bend the rules and they kept those slots going while being within the law. Now that makes me kind of think, that also online casino's could pose a trick that everybody gets a predetermined chance or some shit. You know i've bin countless of hours in landbased casino's in many years. One thing that i noted was the 8 to 16 blocks of slots. They are all hooked together, and everybody's thats playing their wagering is basicly random being distributed over the players.

I'm pretty much sure that this is the case in now many casino's. A new revenue model with bigger and higher TOD's (Time on device) and better crafted and designed bonus systems (apart from the typical wagering). You have a losing streak for a 2 weeks? Oh here's a small threat to keep you going. I can think of a few more reasons why the shift had occured.

As above. You won't believe me, but this just simply isn't the case. Not even sure there are compensated games in land based casino's anymore? Trance will have to comment on that one.

 

[The Reel Story]

So you see i really dont believe in the randomness anymore. At the end of the day a casino is just a business and slots are 75% of their biggest income. A slot out of control would be taken out asap or in this case, reprogrammed. I also believe that a slot that's hot today, can be more nerved to put players towards a newer released game to give that more of a excitement.

A slot can't really go out of control. They are random, but they all have limits, either as part of their math model or imposed. So games will have a mathematical maximum that they can pay. If the casino is worried about risk, they can also impose a maximum winning cap (or a max stake cap) on a game to limit their exposure. The majority of the time, if someone hit big, there are plenty of other losing players that have made that slot profitable.

Dead or Alive 2 is the prime example. There are huge wins on that game every single day. Look at the videos and the pictures. Someone even hit the max win cap recently. Has any casino taken that game down? Has it been nerfed? (no, the wins keep on coming in). Why is this teh case? because THOUSANDS of people are chasing those monster wins that people are getting, and most of them are losing. Who cares if you're paying out 1,000,000 in wins as long as you're taking 1,100,000 in stakes?

In the short term, some games will make a loss (I've had casino take down roulette. ROULETTE FFS, because a player won big and they were worried it was broken. It's sad when you have to explain to a casino how gambling works!). Once they realise that by taking the game down, they've forced the player to keep their winnings, they're pretty quick to put it back up so the player can keep going and put it back

So yeah to protect the casino industry, i'm pretty sure that trancemonkey does'nt and will not answer "all" questions. Or at least answers them that is in his own best interest. I'm not really taking much from streamers too who take deals for their streams. There is or was a huge thread on this forums about casino affiliated streamers. Their best interest is to lure in new players too. You really shoud'nt stream for that purpose. There are people send out to oblivion spending their complete month cheque's and losing that, because they believed that what a streamer can do can occur to them as well.

I used to work in the casino industry. I don't anymore. I have nothing to protect. I'll answer anything. And there are lots of people like me, and probably lots of disgruntled employees who would like nothing better than to heap scorn on their ex employers. You think they're all staying quiet to keep some kind of major conspiracy silent because? If Trance wanted to 'protect' the casino industry, he wouldn't be here at all. Unless you truly think casino's feel threatened by a couple of people on a forum shouting 'RIGGED SLOTS' with no proof and are therefore sending in sleeper agents in an attempt to quell them?

There are dodgy streamers. That is 100% true. It's not really even a secret. I only have a small YouTube channel and I've been offered fake funds or 'significant cashback on my losses' to promote casino's. I turn it down, obviously, but there are those who won't. Legitimate streamers are always happy to prove it (by showing transactions etc). I'm always open about the deposit bonuses I'm using (it's all listed in the descriptions of my videos), and the fact that I'm given those bonuses due to being an affiliate.

Because streamers are playing live, it's actually better, because people see them lose.. a lot! There are even ones (Nick Slots) who are limiting their 'big win' video's to truly exceptional ones and doing 'sensible stake weeks' because they genuinely want to promote responsible gambling. Of course they are a business, and they want to make money, but most have enough morals to only do that off people who can afford it.

You will always get the dregs of any industry who will sell their grandmother if they could. Normally communities backlash on them pretty quickly.

For my part, the majority of my video's are full sessions (I could just do highlights) and I try to post all my videos, even when they are losses (most are), and I always do a roundup at the end of each video to show how much I won/lost and where I am overall for the month (which, luckily for me, has been profit for about 4 straight months!)

Also note that, as of now, I make 0 income off my channel (I have no depositing affiliate referrals as it stands, although I do have some signups) and I spend out a reasonable amount (prize giveaway, my time, software licensing, the money I gamble) so overall, apart from the fact that I've been lucky with cashouts, it costs me a fair bit to keep making my videos I do it cause I'm gambling anyway, so I might as well record it.

As for the "Random within parameters" and the usual "max win being nerfed" i'm pretty sure on this one. I might as well do a session for you guys or anyone who disbelieves my posting here and show you what i'm talking about. I'll be going live for that matter, real deposit, real play, and debunk that randomness some say they are. Pattern. Pattern. Pattern.

Please do a session or something and bring some data to the table that proves your points. But remember, we need statistical significance. 1 session is not enough, 1000 spins is not enough. Anything can happen with numbers that small. If you really do have or manage to produce proof of your claims, take it to the UKGC immediately so it can be investigated.

Honestly though, I very much doubt you will find anything As I said, I worked in the industry, I've made games and been involved in hundreds more over multiple big name Casino's. Not a single one has ever had any kind of system for rigging slots and in a regulated market, I don't believe any will.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Highly unlikely anything has changed with the Chilli math model. What this sounds like is you hit an amazing run, and got super lucky and... now you can't repeat that so you think it's been nerfed? It's mathematical model is designed so you'll lose in the long run, so of course repeating a super lucky streak a second time will be very very hard. That's completely normal behaviour. I just got a 3300x win on Money Train on a bonus buy. That is my biggest multiplier win EVER (by a wide margin). I will probably never hit a win that big on that game again (because it's rare as all hell). That doesn't mean the game is nerfed. That's just statistics.

I have to tell you that, the chilli was capped at max 500 euro buys. It's 'wide-open' now up to 2000 euro. But reproduce that same thing as i done before is'nt happening anymore. Again they could have simply read my bets and behaviour and conclude that, there is a gap in between something. You dont tell me that the attention of someone withdrawing 65k in barely 3 days is'nt noticed, lol.

I dont believe you man saying that repeating the cycle over and over again would eventually gain you profit. It's a very bad advice to give for random slots, lmao. There was a video once of a streamer Paul (

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) and he just blew alot on just chilli with bonus buys and gambling. It was very brutal to see. He had balls tho. But my point is that, i was pretty aware of what was going on. I would stake 2500 to 3500 on avg, and get various profits in return, repeating the cycle over and over again. It's why i kept my mouth shut wisely on this forum lol, because it was my little secret.

As i said, i tried to reproduce it after a while over and over again, with no luck. I'm sure that they 'changed' that. Just as attempting to buy the cheapest bonus buys and try to play it out the easy way. It simply won't let you pass a certain threshold. Do if it you dont believe me. Your battling a pattern and boundries.

 

[The Reel Story]

I have to tell you that, the chilli was capped at max 500 euro buys. It's 'wide-open' now up to 2000 euro. But reproduce that same thing as i done before is'nt happening anymore. Again they could have simply read my bets and behaviour and conclude that, there is a gap in between something. You dont tell me that the attention of someone withdrawing 65k in barely 3 days is'nt noticed, lol.

Not saying it's impossible, just saying it's unlikely given the quality of BTG. Certainly your withdrawals would have been looked at. The fact that you were given them is almost proof that there was nothing wrong (if the casino had found something wrong, they would be within their rights to withhold your winnings under their T&C, and it doesn't take much for a casino to keep money if they can )

I dont believe you man saying that repeating the cycle over and over again would eventually gain you profit. It's a very bad advice to give for random slots, lmao. There was a video once of a streamer Paul (

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) and he just blew alot on just chilli with bonus buys and gambling. It was very brutal to see. He had balls tho. But my point is that, i was pretty aware of what was going on. I would stake 2500 to 3500 on avg, and get various profits in return, repeating the cycle over and over again. It's why i kept my mouth shut wisely on this forum lol, because it was my little secret.

As i said, i tried to reproduce it after a while over and over again, with no luck. I'm sure that they 'changed' that. Just as attempting to buy the cheapest bonus buys and try to play it out the easy way. It simply won't let you pass a certain threshold. Do if it you dont believe me. Your battling a pattern and boundries.

It was most certainly not advice! It's a terrible idea. I just said, if you had a big enough balance, you will, at some point, probably be in profit, statistically speaking.

As I say, I doubt they changed anything. You just can't reproduce it because what happened was extremely lucky, but not impossible. If it was easy to do, then everyone would just make profit off slots, and that isn't how they work

 

[Bloatgoat]

With all those regulations going on, i dont think it would be 'good' news either when providers start using players as potential bug testers.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

What I can't get my head around is the fact that every time I inquisituvely open a large streamer's stream (I don't watch the big ones much), they're either in a bonus round or hit one within 2 minutes of me being there.

I used to watch a bit more of the bigger streamers but I turned off and you know why? Because those games are not playing as they do for the average punter. To be perfectly honest with you, I'd be AMAZED if some of these streamers aren't playing a higher RTP version. Even 98% instead of 96% would be noticeable.

It has nothing to do with bonuses or play time either. I would gamble 4 times a week or so for hours on mostly low stakes 20-40p putting millions upon millions of spins through slots a year and I can safely say that the proportion of big hits streamers get is well out of whack compared to expectation.

There is just a slight stink IMO.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Well that's the thing i was talking about. Once a bonus is applied it seems to rock all over the place. That is if you can make it towards the 35 ~ 40x wagering. Play with real money and all that action is not even close.

Nobody seems to answer or is willing to answer why on bonus money things look a bit more fruityer as they are. Sugarcoated gambling. I've played at different casino's and i can pretty much see to see the same thing going on. Ofcourse, the majority of streamers is playing with bonus money. Is playing with casino pre-filled accounts. All to glorify gambling like it's the number one wealth source on this planet.

It's not. There are even affiliate's out there targetting problem gamblers > WARNING - Affiliates Who Target Problem Gamblers

 

[The Reel Story]

What I can't get my head around is the fact that every time I inquisituvely open a large streamer's stream (I don't watch the big ones much), they're either in a bonus round or hit one within 2 minutes of me being there.

I used to watch a bit more of the bigger streamers but I turned off and you know why? Because those games are not playing as they do for the average punter. To be perfectly honest with you, I'd be AMAZED if some of these streamers aren't playing a higher RTP version. Even 98% instead of 96% would be noticeable.

It has nothing to do with bonuses or play time either. I would gamble 4 times a week or so for hours on mostly low stakes 20-40p putting millions upon millions of spins through slots a year and I can safely say that the proportion of big hits streamers get is well out of whack compared to expectation.

There is just a slight stink IMO.

Again, this is just a feeling. Go and actually watch them. Most of them lose, a lot. And most are happy to say how much they've lost (Nick Slots is ~60k down on casumo over his lifetime and about 3 or 4k down this year). On his last stream he had no luck, the stream before that, he had ALL the luck.

Very few of them have had hits as big as some 'regular' people (just look at the Casinogrounds 'community biggest wins' to see that.

People like to think that the streamers are playing with soem advantage, but it's simply not true. Again, it's your 'feeling'.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Yeah exactly. It's just you. Just keep on playing. Did you drop your deposit today yet?

Lol.

 

[The Reel Story]

Well that's the thing i was talking about. Once a bonus is applied it seems to rock all over the place. That is if you can make it towards the 35 ~ 40x wagering. Play with real money and all that action is not even close.

Nobody seems to answer or is willing to answer why on bonus money things look a bit more fruityer as they are. Sugarcoated gambling. I've played at different casino's and i can pretty much see to see the same thing going on. Ofcourse, the majority of streamers is playing with bonus money. Is playing with casino pre-filled accounts. All to glorify gambling like it's the number one wealth source on this planet.

It's not. There are even affiliate's out there targetting problem gamblers > WARNING - Affiliates Who Target Problem Gamblers

Nobody seems willing to answer? What? I literally answered it already. You just didn't like the answer I told you I have a YouTube channel with a tonne of videos of me USING bonuses that shows that this isn't the case (and these are affiliate bonuses, if you're suspicious i'm getting some kind of weird affiliate benefit). The majority of my videos are losses.

And it certainly isn't the majority of streamers who are using poor tactics. Quite the opposite, the majority are very up front. There is ALWAYS a minority who will do whatever it takes to make a quick buck, such as the affiliate in Casinomeisters thread. If there were lots, he would be posting a lot more of those threads now wouldn't he?

 

[Bloatgoat]

Dude, i dont wanna know about your channel. Your taking deals. As for as i am concerned there's only 2 streamers i watch, follow and have some sort of reasonable understanding of what's reality or not. I used to affiliate in the past too, trust me, and looking at those percentages affiliate marketing on casino's is offering (40 to 60% on losses on a players deposit) i'm pretty sure your just very eager to promote your channel does'nt it? It's the 2nd time you dropped that you have a channel now. I'm not interested. And perhaps you should tell the wagers you are getting on the losses of your affiliate signups, shoud'nt you?

He, I and a dozen are not the only ones who question streamer or let alone taking bonus money and getting wins all over the place.

 

[The Reel Story]

Haha, If I was promoting it, I wouldn't be doing it here. I have social media for that. You just like any old excuse not to look at tangible evidence in front of you. Conveniently hiding behind the 'crooked streamer' line even when the evidence would show the exact opposite.

As I already said (and i'm sure you ignored) I make no money from my channel, and no one here is going to sign up through any of my affiliate links (least of all you) so why would I be 'promoting' it? Nothing to gain here.

You could go and watch a few video's which would prove you wrong, but you don't want to do that. You'd rather decide that everyone who is willing to answer you has some other motive that makes them unreliable and you'll wait until someone random with no proof comes along and says 'Yeh man, you're totally right' then you'll jump on it and go 'See! SEE! I TOLD YOU'.

Also, Mr Slot used the words 'It has nothing to do with bonuses or play time either ' so he's not even agreeing with you on that point

Anyway, at this point, you're just a Troll. You're uninterested in anything that doesn't fit with your point of view and anyone who isn't actually asking questions to get a genuine answer isn't worth answering (probably why Trance never did in the first place).

 

[paul7388]

Haha, If I was promoting it, I wouldn't be doing it here. I have social media for that. You just like any old excuse not to look at tangible evidence in front of you. Conveniently hiding behind the 'crooked streamer' line even when the evidence would show the exact opposite.

As I already said (and i'm sure you ignored) I make no money from my channel, and no one here is going to sign up through any of my affiliate links (least of all you) so why would I be 'promoting' it? Nothing to gain here.

You could go and watch a few video's which would prove you wrong, but you don't want to do that. You'd rather decide that everyone who is willing to answer you has some other motive that makes them unreliable and you'll wait until someone random with no proof comes along and says 'Yeh man, you're totally right' then you'll jump on it and go 'See! SEE! I TOLD YOU'.

Also, Mr Slot used the words 'It has nothing to do with bonuses or play time either ' so he's not even agreeing with you on that point

Anyway, at this point, you're just a Troll. You're uninterested in anything that doesn't fit with your point of view and anyone who isn't actually asking questions to get a genuine answer isn't worth answering (probably why Trance never did in the first place).

Trance did waste his time in his ask anything thread a long time ago. Not sure if he just gave up trying. I was sitting reading all your detailed replies laughing saying what a waste of time.

But i think you soon realized that there is no point trying to explain somethings to some people as they are not interested in answers that do not fit their version of thinking.

 

[goatwack]

What I can't get my head around is the fact that every time I inquisituvely open a large streamer's stream (I don't watch the big ones much), they're either in a bonus round or hit one within 2 minutes of me being there.

I used to watch a bit more of the bigger streamers but I turned off and you know why? Because those games are not playing as they do for the average punter. To be perfectly honest with you, I'd be AMAZED if some of these streamers aren't playing a higher RTP version. Even 98% instead of 96% would be noticeable.

It has nothing to do with bonuses or play time either. I would gamble 4 times a week or so for hours on mostly low stakes 20-40p putting millions upon millions of spins through slots a year and I can safely say that the proportion of big hits streamers get is well out of whack compared to expectation.

There is just a slight stink IMO.

On an unrelated note (but not really) here's an interesting tidbit in regards to most streamers' authenticity. It didn't shake me to the core.....as we all suspected this is quite clearly a thing across many mediums

 

[Bloatgoat]

Haha, If I was promoting it, I wouldn't be doing it here. I have social media for that. You just like any old excuse not to look at tangible evidence in front of you. Conveniently hiding behind the 'crooked streamer' line even when the evidence would show the exact opposite.

Uh, so why would you mention twice that you have a youtube channel then, and being sponsored by casino's ? Do you want to impress me or anything? Did you know that i could start streaming too and hijack those followers you have in a eyeblink? That is, if i wanted. But i'd prefer not to be in that jungle. I'd like to play on my own and when i want to.

You could go and watch a few video's which would prove you wrong, but you don't want to do that. You'd rather decide that everyone who is willing to answer you has some other motive that makes them unreliable and you'll wait until someone random with no proof comes along and says 'Yeh man, you're totally right' then you'll jump on it and go 'See! SEE! I TOLD YOU'.

Pweeeeeepppp. Wrong answer. You or another said it 'mself that a single or multiple session do not take anything in account and that you guys need or want data. Well i work with what i see, i think that is the closest you could ever get.

Anyway, at this point, you're just a Troll. You're uninterested in anything that doesn't fit with your point of view and anyone who isn't actually asking questions to get a genuine answer isn't worth answering (probably why Trance never did in the first place).

Just because i disagree with your opinion or another, i'm a troll? Dude go stream, catch your little affiliate's with signup and deposit bonus, perhaps one day you can actually fund your gambling habbits off other people's money!

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Again, this is just a feeling. Go and actually watch them. Most of them lose, a lot. And most are happy to say how much they've lost (Nick Slots is ~60k down on casumo over his lifetime and about 3 or 4k down this year). On his last stream he had no luck, the stream before that, he had ALL the luck.

Very few of them have had hits as big as some 'regular' people (just look at the Casinogrounds 'community biggest wins' to see that.

People like to think that the streamers are playing with soem advantage, but it's simply not true. Again, it's your 'feeling'.

Indeed, however, even if you were playing a 98% slot version rather than a 96% one, you'd still end up down eventually.

My point is that in my eyes (and I can only go on what I see), some streamers seem to regularly hit bonuses and big wins more than would be usually expected.

I'm not disagreeing that this could be a fallacy but that's not my interpretation. I have no axe to grind nor any sort of beef with the industry. I've played multi millions of spins across a myriad of slot games and I have intuition.

I'm in my 30s now. I've enough life experience to know that some people in life will try and convince you of things, argue black is white etc etc (especially where money is involved) but I choose to make my own mind up these days.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

On an unrelated note (but not really) here's an interesting tidbit in regards to most streamers' authenticity. It didn't shake me to the core.....as we all suspected this is quite clearly a thing across many mediums

Where you see a common interest you'll see stuff like that happening. It's completely naive to think otherwise.

 

[Bloatgoat]

The belief of some people here that we all should go out blind and 'trust' the slots amazes me. Ah well. Stay in that illusion if you like it so much.

 

[shadow123]

Kind of a sweeping statement to say all slots are random,2000 plus games out there,yep all slots should be
random,have been tested and appear to be random but no one can catagorically say they are.
Planes have fallen out sky due to software errors that did not come to light during testing, only
becoming apparant during actual flights with devestating consequences..Compare the countless
millions that must have been spent on testing with a few hours pissing around with the latest Barcrap
game to see if its random.

 

[The Reel Story]

Kind of a sweeping statement to say all slots are random,2000 plus games out there,yep all slots should be
random,have been tested and appear to be random but no one can catagorically say they are.
Planes have fallen out sky due to software errors that did not come to light during testing, only
becoming apparant during actual flights with devestating consequences..Compare the countless
millions that must have been spent on testing with a few hours pissing around with the latest Barcrap
game to see if its random.

As I said, technical malfunction is possible, but that isn't the topic here. People are saying that slots are rigged or controlled and that is not the case. They are random. Could there be a broken one out there? sure, probably, but that's broken, not rigged and not controlled

And in 10 years in the industry with hundreds (maybe thousands?) of games running through the platform I ran. I never once saw a game that wasn't random. Def saw some broken ones a few times.

 

[shadow123]

My point was that testing is not infallable, one of the reasons given that games must be random is that they are compliance tested

 

[Bloatgoat]

It's no golden standard here either. Even VW bypassed emissions by programming the car wether to be on the road or on the test bench which had a huge impact on CO2 and Nox emissions.

ah well. Slots are still random right!

 

[shadow123]

yup if it looks random and plays random it must be random, end of discussion

 

[Playford7]

Kind of a sweeping statement to say all slots are random,2000 plus games out there,yep all slots should be
random,have been tested and appear to be random but no one can catagorically say they are.
Planes have fallen out sky due to software errors that did not come to light during testing, only
becoming apparant during actual flights with devestating consequences..Compare the countless
millions that must have been spent on testing with a few hours pissing around with the latest Barcrap
game to see if its random.

Random so they say, doesn’t mean not heavily weighted against you to win.
Just as they are in theory random don’t mean the rtp actually works that way

 

[pinnit2014]

At this juncture it would be prudent to introduce @snorky510238 into the debate as we know he is a purveyor of all things random.

 

[goatwack]

I thought we've moved past Random

This week's swell new word is, in fact, Scriptocompenfixed

 

[snorky510238]

HERE’S SNORKY!

Yeah ok from what we now know I will use the example that the purists have used many times.

The balls and the bag scenario (and no it’s not the one where the angle of the dangle is equal to the throb of the kno#) .

The example they use is there are ten balls in a bag 5 blue, 3 green, 2 red and one white.
They say the colour of the ball you pick is random. Yes of course it is (in as much as you can’t guarantee which colour you will pick) but if your life depended on it and you had to name the colour your going to pick you would guess blue obviously.

They say every outcome has to be available on every spin. What they don’t have to state is what the odds are on every spin. Now we know about reel sets being changed etc those odds could be changing dramatically on each spin.

This also leads me to think is this how slots are classed as random but this is a mask for compensated. What I mean is to keep rtp on track if the game pays a big win the next x amount of players get the duff reels until the pool builds up again and then the next set come into play. If nobody hits big and the pool hits the next threshold the next best set come into play and so on until the pot drops down again and the relevant reel sets come into play again.

For certain games especially the megaways this could be happening in the base game. On the more simple games where large base hits are not common perhaps only the bonus rounds are manipulated.

It may seem a bit out there but it would explain the undoubted hot and cold streaks and still be classed as random in providers eyes.

 

[Bloatgoat]

They just done a terrible job putting it together.