- Joined
- Aug 25, 2004
- Location
- Bexhill on sea, England
Yes, that is what I was going to say.
AFAIK the RTP of Hot Ink is 97.5%, which is pretty high by MG standards. If the player achieved that with a Bx30 WR, it would be slightly +EV.
KK
Tarabas3 VS Lucky Nugget
- Thread starter Tarabas3
- Start date
- Status
AFAIK the RTP of Hot Ink is 97.5%, which is pretty high by MG standards. If the player achieved that with a Bx30 WR, it would be slightly +EV.
KK
But with the respin the variaty is much lower. Just try the game for yourself and you will see it. Ofcourse there is a house-edge when you play casino games, that is not what Im saying. There just might be lower house edge with that on and allso much better chances to get RTP around 95-97%, rather then it dropping around 70-80%.
That is because it might be considered low-margin betting (or irregular play).
IF (big big big huge enormous IF) this is the case, the casino should have pointed this out clearly, when they informed player about confistigating winnings. Allso I think it is unfair to confistigate winnings due to something like that, because player can not now casino would consider gaming style like that irregular.
Anyhow, if something like that is the reason for voiding winnings, Ill be steering clear from Lucky Nugget. Allso they have that really really bad "6x max cashout when using first deposit bonus" term. Seems fishy
.Edit: To add. I have not done any kind of research about that game, just tried it out for myself for a while. But that is enough to notice how it acts very different then normal slots.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
It's still an open PAB from what I can see. Nobody has ignored us. I'm sure Max will get back to you shortly.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
Asking questions is not disrespectful. Statements like the following are:
How would you know? Are you reading my inbox? Are you reading the casino rep's inbox? Obviously not because we HAVE been discussing your case and what should be done because of it. Besides, I never promised anything, I said I'd look into it which is exactly what I have been doing and will continue to do until we're done, your beligerant attitude and groundless derision notwithstanding.
Rubbish! You were told by the casino what Terms you had violated and from what I can see they were right in saying so, probably on at least two counts. What there is to be done is what we're currently discussing.
Next time you want an update on your case try asking. Going out of you way to belittle and defame the person from whom you hope to get assistance is not smart.
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- Joined
- Jul 22, 2004
- Location
- Sweden
I'm sorry, but it's quite obvious the reason you deposited there was to take advantage of their bonus and played in a way to get as much value out if as you could. Which is fine, if you didn't break any rules you should get paid but it is also the reason why terms are like they are since the casino has to try and cover for stuff like this.
For the others, while I haven't looked at Hot Ink specifically, the RTP isn't the important factor. The whole idea is to play very high variance early on, for example betting single numbers on roulette, then find the lowest variance slot to grind out the WR. I would imagine on Hot Ink you can lock in a low paying 5 of a kind and respin the last wheel or something similar for extremely low variance. A 7500 WR isn't very scary if you have a 1000 balance from a 140 deposit and close to no variance, you'll end up cashing out 7-800 pretty much every time. Of course you won't get to a 1000 balance every time, but the odds are definitely in the players favour with a 100% bonus.
Could we also know what exact terms were violated by the OP? This is the quote from OP's starting post:
"As per your request I provide you with further explanation. We detected irregular game play as per our Terms & Conditions.
Your balance was reset as you placed high bets on Roulette and then played through the bonus in small bets on Hot Ink."
Do you call this a valid casino explanation for confiscating winnings? Irregular play? High bets on roulette? They can never be named "high" if it was not more than 30% of the bonus. Regarding the "small bets" accusation- it is totally false since nowhere in the casino's T&C they define it.
So may be you will give us more information on this case? Thank you
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
At the moment, it's still in discussion via the PAB. I would wait to ask about that when it's been completed.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
Not from me, this is a work in progress and discussing case details would be inappropriate. But the OP knows full well what those violations were as they were discussed between her and the casino.
No, I will not. See above. I'm sure you know very well that the details of ongoing PABs are not available to anyone outside the PAB process. If you are not so aware please read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ for details.
FWIW it is my understanding that the OP has misrepresented the extent of the email exchange that went on between her and the casino.
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- Joined
- Sep 26, 2004
- Location
- SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
LOL Max you have just disclosed her gender or were I the only person unaware of it?
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
Well, given that she's busy pissing all over me and the PAB process without the slightest clue of what she's talking about -- or any attempt to find out -- I'd say that protecting her gender info is a nicety that she's decided to forgo.
Her name is allso Maria. As stated on the reply she received from casino and posted here
.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2004
- Location
- SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Thanks guys and gals. It was a light-hearted attempt to diffuse tensions that may arise. I don't really care about gender and nationality if you get what I mean. Any player could be rogue aiming at ways to profit from ND bonuses or play bonuses in such a way that risk is minimal after even-money bets.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
Don't be a troll (again). You've been a member here for six years, you know very well that people ask questions -- and get answers -- about Accredited casinos all the time. In fact in the 150+ posts you've made in your time here I'll bet you've even asked one or two yourself. But you're not really asking about Accred casinos and how that process works, are you? You're doing something else entirely and if you keep that up you'll catch some serious stick for it.
In case it's not already obvious there's a big difference between a question like
and something like
The first may well be a legitimate question. The second is an open attack and a blatant attempt to discredit all involved, it also happens to have a question attached to it.
The first would almost certainly be treated with respect and answered accordingly. The second is grounds for being guided to the door with a boot in the arse for encouragement.
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- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
Then don't say things like "why can't we ask questions about Accredited casinos?" when you know very well that that's total BS. And don't make public demands for details of ongoing PAB cases when you know full well that our PAB policies and procedures flatly prohibit any such material from being shared while the PAB is active. To pretend you don't know these things is subterfuge and is obviously intended to damage and disrupt the site. Stop it or you'll be shown the way out, permanently.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
Just to clarify something - actually the Accredited Section lists casinos that have been vetted and recommended by forum members. This is why we have the Baptism by Fire section - for members to give input and critiques. If you mean "Casinomeister the entity" to include our community, then yes, you are spot on. If you mean me personally, then that is incorrect.
Everything is open for debate on the forum. It always has been this way.
Maxd, the ONE and ONLY explanation from Lucky Nugget casino that I received is this one:"As per your request I provide you with further explanation. We detected irregular game play as per our Terms & Conditions.Your balance was reset as you placed high bets on Roulette and then played through the bonus in small bets on Hot Ink."
It was sent to me after the first time they confiscated my winnings. Do you find it explaining something and sufficient? I don't. After the second confiscation I did not receive ANY email.The only action by the casino was my 143 euro deposit refund.
Now , my biggest total bet while playing roulette (I refer to my second try) was 40 euro. 30% bet
limit for 143 euro bonus I received is 42.90 euro. So I did not violate that rule. I am still waiting for an explanation from the casino and if you have it (and you said here that you do have) then please inform me about it in any way that you prefer.
It was sent to me after the first time they confiscated my winnings. Do you find it explaining something and sufficient? I don't. After the second confiscation I did not receive ANY email.The only action by the casino was my 143 euro deposit refund.
Now , my biggest total bet while playing roulette (I refer to my second try) was 40 euro. 30% bet
limit for 143 euro bonus I received is 42.90 euro. So I did not violate that rule. I am still waiting for an explanation from the casino and if you have it (and you said here that you do have) then please inform me about it in any way that you prefer.
Sounds like they are applying their interpretation of a "spirit of the bonus" clause in that Roulette was used to build up the balance and then the WR was ground out on slots to ensure a cashout.
I do not agree with "Spirit of the Bonus" clauses in any way shape or form but we all know Casino's have them and love to enforce them as they see fit, best way to avoid situations like this is to stick to one game type and reasonable bet sizes until the WR is met, don't give them any reason to deny your win.
AL
I do not agree with "Spirit of the Bonus" clauses in any way shape or form but we all know Casino's have them and love to enforce them as they see fit, best way to avoid situations like this is to stick to one game type and reasonable bet sizes until the WR is met, don't give them any reason to deny your win.
AL
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2007
- Location
- Amsterdam
Reasonable bet size and sticking to one game type: it's all a bit vague to me. If the casino wants to exclude roulette play with a bonus (either or not in combination with slot play), which IS allowed under the current T&Cs, they should specify this in great detail. Players have to know EXACTLY what is and what is not allowed. Also, the max bet size was never exceeded, so what's a reasonable bet size?
Reasonable bet size and sticking to one game type: it's all a bit vague to me. If the casino wants to exclude roulette play with a bonus (either or not in combination with slot play), which IS allowed under the current T&Cs, they should specify this in great detail. Players have to know EXACTLY what is and what is not allowed. Also, the max bet size was never exceeded, so what's a reasonable bet size?
I totally agree that players should know in advance exactly what is and what is not allowed however we also have to realize that Casino's like to be vague and while they can get away with it will continue to do so, therefore if they see an opportunity to deny winnings when a player bets big on roulette and then grinds out the WR on slots they are going to take it.
Sorry for any confusion but I guess what I meant by reasonable bet size is if the OP had played say only 5-10% or less of bonus per bet the casino would probably not have been able to deny, I don't know what others think but if I deposit & get a bonus I would not want to play it thru @30% and possibly lose it all in 3-4 spins?, though it does sound like a good strategy to beat the WR it is probably what the Casino would consider "irregular play" or am I wrong and do most players go max allowed bet when playing a bonus?
Still believe OP should be paid & Casino needs to make their spirit of the bonus clause below Crystal Clear.
Al
5.8.1 Before any withdrawals are processed, your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns. In the interests of fair gaming, equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting, shall all be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account, placing even money bets on Roulette, Sic Bo or Craps, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 20% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met. For the purposes of this rule, a bet is defined as one roulette spin or one dealer's dealt hand in any table game, or one deal in any Video or Power Poker game (this includes Multi-Hand/Play games). Any double or gamble shall be considered a new bet. Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred; the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings.
If they state in their T&C that maximum bet size allowed is 30% - then ANY bet which is not over 30% MUST be valid. Otherwise, they can do whatever they want to whomever they want.
I absolutely agree if you did not breach the 30% rule you should be & I hope you will be paid.
The one thing I really don't like in the terms & conditions is the line "Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to" in other words they are saying that "there are other things a player can do that will be deemed irregular play but we are not prepared to let you know what they are before you play!
Al
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
Agree. Ridiculous terms.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
It seems they are enforcing a hidden minimum bet term, taking exception to the reduction in bet size between Roulette and slots. The shift initially was over 10 fold, dropping to 3.0 credit spins on slots, however they did the same when the OP won AGAIN on the second opportunity, where they placed larger 6.0 credit bets on slots. How was the player to know that even 6.0 was not enough, they were not told enough in the explanation to allow them to judge what bet spread would be deemed "legitimate play". It tells me that the casino had no specific limits, and were basing the determination on the result (the player won), rather than the style of play.
I don't see 6.0 slot bets as in any way "grinding out WR", if anything, this is a HIGH bet to make on slots, which are high variance games.
If they want a rule limiting the spread of bets, it should be clearly stated in the terms, something that some casinos have done, where the spread limit is defined in terms of the highest and lowest bets made by the player, and the spread must be within xx% of the higher amount.
Without such a rule being present, but then deemed to have been broken as in this case, this is a "spirit of the bonus" clause, and this should not be present for an accredited casino. If casinos want to have "spirit of the bonus" rules, they should do so in the "reservation", and preserve the quality standard of the accredited list.
I don't see 6.0 slot bets as in any way "grinding out WR", if anything, this is a HIGH bet to make on slots, which are high variance games.
If they want a rule limiting the spread of bets, it should be clearly stated in the terms, something that some casinos have done, where the spread limit is defined in terms of the highest and lowest bets made by the player, and the spread must be within xx% of the higher amount.
Without such a rule being present, but then deemed to have been broken as in this case, this is a "spirit of the bonus" clause, and this should not be present for an accredited casino. If casinos want to have "spirit of the bonus" rules, they should do so in the "reservation", and preserve the quality standard of the accredited list.
Maybe "Irregular Play" simply means winning as for most of us "Regular Play" is losing!
Al
Lucky Nugget and Maxd.
I made my first complaint one month and a half ago. It seems I am totally ignored now by Lucky Nugget and Maxd. Still no single valid explanation for confiscating more than 800 Eur. from me. Will file a complaint with Ecogra now. Should have done it long time ago. Will keep this forum updated.
I made my first complaint one month and a half ago. It seems I am totally ignored now by Lucky Nugget and Maxd. Still no single valid explanation for confiscating more than 800 Eur. from me. Will file a complaint with Ecogra now. Should have done it long time ago. Will keep this forum updated.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
Don't be a jerk. No one is ignoring your case. From what my records show, there is an active dialogue between Max and the casino - it's going back and forth at the moment. Have you PMd Max asking for its status? I thought not.
Coming in here and slagging off on us without a valid reason just tempts me to pull the "adios" switch.
I wrote to maxd here several days ago. He did not reply. Should I have contacted him in private?
Did not know it was so important.
Will do it in private next time.
No mods can read ALL threads here. What they can do is to read all their PM:s.
Also, when a PAB is filed, it is expected from you that you don't write more in the fora about it. It is expected from you that you talk with Max in private. Common sense.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2011
- Location
- Wigan
You should read the PAB rules again
NOTHING of the case while in the process will be discussed in public
- Joined
- May 13, 2013
- Location
- Perth, Australia
Also don't forget Max is taking on all the PAB, which could be a lengthy process. I submitted mine and he has not attended to it yet but I am sure he will. Not to worry at the soonest possible time he will get back to you.
Remember this service is free and he is doing it for the good of the community.
Remember this service is free and he is doing it for the good of the community.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
Yes, you submitted it yesterday (Saturday) and I'll see to it tomorrow (Monday). As I recall the PAB FAQ mentions that issues submitted over the weekend will be processed on the following work day. Always a good idea to read the FAQ.
Later: as it happens the FAQ did not explicitly mention the bit about weekends. Now it does.
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- Joined
- May 13, 2013
- Location
- Perth, Australia
All good Max. I assumed that this would be the case anyway. The fact I am half way around the world probably doesn't help either! ~
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
As suggested by others you should (re)read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ. It is made perfectly clear there that ALL communications regarding ongoing PABs should be private. There's no excuse for not knowing "it was so important" and what the proper procedure is. FYI contact information is given for how to reach me if you have questions.
Not reading the FAQ is a clear message to me and our readers here that you haven't taken the time to do your homework regarding the PAB process. Apparently you'd rather bitch and moan on the forums. Your choice of course but it doesn't do your PAB much good to be unaware of your responsibilities in the PAB process and/or ignore them.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
And I'm still waiting for you to read, and follow, the PAB FAQ. I had tried to contact you a few times via email -- which I've made perfectly clear is how we normally conduct the PAB discussions -- and have had no reply. As you will have read in the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ you are required to respond to our emails regarding your PAB. If you do not then your PAB gets side-lined. Whatever, I'll dig up those details and send them again. Please respond ASAP.
Let me be perfectly clear: if you want to communicate with me regarding your PAB then email me. If you want your PAB to stay active then you must respond to my emails. Popping up on the forums and saying "waiting for this or that" is NOT acceptable PAB procedure. For the last time: READ THE FAQ. If you can't be bothered to do that and follow the guidelines given there then I have no interest nor obligation to pursue your PAB issue.
Thread title changed because the OP's claims have never been verified and their conduct of the related PAB has been highly suspect.
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- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
I replied you Max. Unfortunately casino informed you only of the bets I made the first time I played with their bonus. Then they confiscated my winnings. And then they offered me a second try- they reset my balance to 283 euro (143 deposit+143 bonus). And I played again. And this time I NEVER violated their 30% rule (no bets more than 40 euro) and I won. And then again my winnings were confiscated. So please, ask them to provide you with my SECOND play session history and not the first one. Thank you.
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
= "How to get your PAB tossed 101"
I will say, even though I have no time or sympathy for advantage players given that they're the reason there are so many draconian terms these days, that if the OP did not breach any terms the second time they should be paid. Close their account and ban them, fine, but pay the winnings.
I have just as little time or sympathy for "spirit of the bonus" nonsense. Its like being pulled over doing 80 in a 90 zone because the policeman thought that the limit should be 70 and they just weren't comfortable with you doing 80 (even though its legal).
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
What part of read and follow the FAQs don't you understand? Are you evoking some special privilege that supersedes what all the other members are required to do?
Explain to me why you are having difficulty following Max's instructions.
Actually, there is no any difficulty. But Maxd wrote:
"Thread title changed because the OP's claims have never been verified and their conduct of the related PAB has been highly suspect. "
And I felt necessary to explain my situation again. I also sent an email to Maxd.
P.S. May be I am a little bit impatient person. Excuse me then.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
Then that would have been between you and Max. We may be meeting the casino reps this week in Amsterdam, so hopefully we can have an answer for you on your situation. Any further posting on this subject from you and I'll shitcan the PAB.
Ok , thanks.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2004
- Location
- SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
I believe you should have relayed this to MaxD in a pm instead of stating it here publicly. Frankly, I believe Max the guy is smart enough to request the availability of both sessions and unlikely to let people pull the wool over his eyes. He is damn experienced so you should first let the PAB run its course.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2004
- Location
- Haverhill
That's funny, I thought the casinos were the ones that wrote the terms. I'd think that would make them responsible ...
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
Nice to see two sentences from you bpb
Would be nice for you to explain what you mean, if that's not asking too much.
Originally, terms for bonuses were very simple and had very low WR. Why? The thinking was to either make the first experience a winning one, or at least a positive one by giving extra funds for extra playtime to encourage players back on a regular basis. After all, we all tend to return to where we win.
Along come the APs, whose MO is to deposit the max, wager exactly the minimum on the highest RTP games, and cashout......which would be okay if they were going to become regular returning customers....but it soon became apparent that these type of players never returned, but rather went from casino to casino doing exactly the same thing. Many of them were making a generous living out of it.
After a while, and after the patterns became clear, the casinos decided that they could no longer function as personal income generators for one section of the player community. It was a decision that any properly run business should make I.e. to protect its bottom line and adjust policy to address the market conditions.
Forward to nowadays, and we have pages of terms and ridiculous WR with tight game restrictions. Its a tough ask to win on most bonuses, and terms are now harsher for SUBs.
Every restriction we have today is a DIRECT result of APs and their past (and present) behaviour.
Are the casinos "responsible" for implementing the terms? Well obviously, and you KNOW that, because every business is responsible for making their own policies. You're just making a childish play on words for the sole reason of being contrary, as you do, with no actual explanation nor supportive evidence or discussion.
Are they "responsible" for the REASONS for the terms needing to be implemented in the first place? No. We all get treated like potential APs these day, and we have the REAL greedy opportunists who call themselves APS to thank. Mind you, it happens in most businesses.....in every instance where some kind of promotion/offer is advertised, there will be people whose sole purpose is to extract the highest possible return using whatever methods available (including cheating etc).
Next time you bomb out on a bonus with 35xWR, think about the REAL reason why that bonus was so hard to beat, and maybe you might consider directing your anger/bile/frustration at the party that is fundamentally responsible....the Advantage Player.
N.B. In the last paragraph the word "you" is not meant in the personal.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
Nice to see two sentences from you bpb
Would be nice for you to explain what you mean, if that's not asking too much.
Originally, terms for bonuses were very simple and had very low WR. Why? The thinking was to either make the first experience a winning one, or at least a positive one by giving extra funds for extra playtime to encourage players back on a regular basis. After all, we all tend to return to where we win.
Along come the APs, whose MO is to deposit the max, wager exactly the minimum on the highest RTP games, and cashout......which would be okay if they were going to become regular returning customers....but it soon became apparent that these type of players never returned, but rather went from casino to casino doing exactly the same thing. Many of them were making a generous living out of it.
After a while, and after the patterns became clear, the casinos decided that they could no longer function as personal income generators for one section of the player community. It was a decision that any properly run business should make I.e. to protect its bottom line and adjust policy to address the market conditions.
Forward to nowadays, and we have pages of terms and ridiculous WR with tight game restrictions. Its a tough ask to win on most bonuses, and terms are now harsher for SUBs.
Every restriction we have today is a DIRECT result of APs and their past (and present) behaviour.
Are the casinos "responsible" for implementing the terms? Well obviously, and you KNOW that, because every business is responsible for making their own policies. You're just making a childish play on words for the sole reason of being contrary, as you do, with no actual explanation nor supportive evidence or discussion.
Are they "responsible" for the REASONS for the terms needing to be implemented in the first place? No. We all get treated like potential APs these day, and we have the REAL greedy opportunists who call themselves APS to thank. Mind you, it happens in most businesses.....in every instance where some kind of promotion/offer is advertised, there will be people whose sole purpose is to extract the highest possible return using whatever methods available (including cheating etc).
Next time you bomb out on a bonus with 35xWR, think about the REAL reason why that bonus was so hard to beat, and maybe you might consider directing your anger/bile/frustration at the party that is fundamentally responsible....the Advantage Player.
N.B. In the last paragraph the word "you" is not meant in the personal.
It still shouldn't require pages and pages of terms and conditions that confuse the player.
If they were so keen on the word count, pages and pages of coding would have been a far better and more targeted response to the problem. Recreational players would hardly notice, and Advantage Players would be up against software "firewalls", not legalese that they could twist to their advantage.
Take the unusual bet patterns used. Most hoped these would not get noticed by regular auditing of play, even if they did violate the terms. However, a "firewall" in the software would have stopped them in their tracks from even trying to slip the dodgy bet through, and the audit would be much simpler for all. The average player would never hit these safeguards as they would not be betting their entire balance on a single outcome, or indeed the less obvious variations on this theme used by Advantage players.
The other problem was marketing. Once any player, advantage or not, had taken the initial promotion, they were offered the crumbs, yet saw generous offers being dished out for new customers everywhere, thus teaching regular players what advantage players already knew, loyalty does not pay.
Casinos would be better off making a better effort to keep the valuable recreational players interested in sticking around rather than being lured away, and as for the advantage players, just let them move on, they would anyway, so would not even notice an attempt to keep them.
Another thing they could do would be to have fewer skins of the same company. Recreational players don't really see the bigger picture, whereas advantage players see each skin as a fresh chance to make an income from the same operator. It would be better to have ONE casino, but let users choose from a selection of skins much like Microsoft does with it's media player.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Location
- Pictland
The casino has provided evidence that the OP repeatedly broke the Terms even after the casino people explained the violation to her and told of the consequences if she persisted. Furthermore that evidence shows she misrepresented the facts both here and in her PAB. Case closed and the OP is banned for PAB fraud.
- Status
