Should CAP be rogued?

[GaryWatson]

I know the decision process comes down to CM's investigations but I feel their business ethics is an insult and has been for a long time now. Many people lose sight that the player comes first, that doesnt matter whether you are an affiliate, operator or both.


Following on from here

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/29330/

I didnt want to derail an active thread with one of my rants.

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On reflection I dont think that thread will bring anything positive, only cover up the negative aspects.

CAP is first and foremost a business, which is fact.

It is a grey area where CAP's motives lie regarding affiliates. Without sidetracking with the certification issue it comes down to one point, CAP care only about the bottom line "money". They dont give a rats ass whether affiliates are being scammed as long as they are sitting pretty.

Now that I have got that out of the way, there is no solution to the problem. Cardspike is only a side issue; it has been going on for as long as I've known about CAP.

It is the active forum members that make the site what it is. They should see it as a slap in the face, if they walk; CAP no longer has the power to victimize its members. If you think victimization is a little strong, many members have been banned at CAP for providing solid evidence that a site has ripped them off. Their threads have been deleted, their account taken over and mocked by staff. Talk about bite the hand that feeds them?

There is always fresh blood to prey on so CAP doesnt worry too much about pissing off innocent newcomers. It shows a total arrogance and lack of respect for its members. Decent sites should take note and walk away and leave the rogues to fight over placement. Decent operators should build their own affiliate forums and prosper through integrity.

My solution would be to eliminate CAP from the decision making process. There are more affiliates than ever before and more to come. They do not need rogue sites like CAP dictating to them. There will be newer super affiliates around who do not rely heavily on a false certification program.

CAP might feel they can bully the operators into keeping their over inflated position, maybe they can but not if the operators stick together and eliminate the rot once and for all. I think its high time CAP step back into line and chose what side of the fence they want to sit on.

When I see their label on a site I know I better not have any issues because they have a dishonest record and the operators seem to kiss their arses.

So as it stands, we are left with a scenario that not only are CAP collecting affiliate subs income, they are also collecting certification/sponsorship fees from the sites. Its anyones guess what goes on behind the scenes but my guess is, the only mutual benefit going on is between CAP and the operators. If you are lucky enough to have signed up through a CAP link, you might have a chance, otherwise you are a gonner.

I think CAP is bad for the industry as a whole. I think it gives pro UIGEA idealists a reason to keep out US players. I would like to see an end to these sort of self regulatory bodies with no substance. Maybe one day we will have a fully regulated industry but in all probability it will be littered with these parasites.

I vote to put CAP on the rogue list and let them work out what to do with their certification program.

 

[slotplayer]

I voted no for these reasons.

As an affiliate and I get more positives from CAP than negatives and no offense to CAP or those who run it I knew long ago by reading a few posts their agenda was money driven and what was said should be taken with a grain of salt.

Granted perhaps they do some things that I personally would not do but that is their choice to make and since I'm not behind the scenes drawing any conclusion as to their motives for they decisions they make is only speculation.

After over 28 years in high tech working for a dozen plus companies I learned not to second guess the management.

I don't have rouge section on my site. If a program stiffs players they're history. I have a zero tolerance policy. However, I rely on you guys and CM for this information. Plain and simple I trust your posts.

 

[greek39]

Yes without a doubt.

Thanks Gary!

greek39

 

[BingoT]

We all know you can't fix CAP's in a week.
I say if it's the same in a two week period Yes rogued them but I see a turn for the better is in the works.
For the best of CAP's they should sell it out and move on.
You can't run a place that had bad blood in it.
A Fresh New Start is needed.

I say the best person would be Bryan (CM) to take it over.
This way Bryan will have one for the players & one for the affiliates.

My 2 cents


GaryWatson Thanks for some good points that you posted.

 

[Webzcas]

I have voted no. As I believe you cannot rogue the CAP Community and by roguing CAP that is exactly what you would be doing.

Changes need to be made at CAP undoubtedly of which Bryan has come up with some very good ideas in the Cap Solutions Thread he started a few days ago.

To be honest I feel this poll is ill timed and regardless of it's intentions could prove another outlet to bash CAP with, which we don't need to be honest.

If you are unhappy with the way CAP is run and the lack of percieved transparency which has been well documented over the last month, then do what I have done. Vote with your feet and refrain from posting there and boycott their numerous conferences.

However I am willing to give CAP the community and Affiliate Media the chance to turn CAP around and if in the coming weeks and months they make the necessary changes needed in my view, then I would gladly return.

 

[Simmo!]

I'm with Webzcas. There is a distinction between CAP and Effective Media, despite ownership interests, and any Roguing could only be justified by the Cardspike incident. And even then, until ownership, and consequently responsibility for payment funding, is known it would be based on conjecture. Strictly speaking, the infamous PDF file is not a contract, merely intent.

While CAP has it's critics and hitherto has not responded well to criticism, it does provide a very valuable service to affiliates. A service that can be improved (and probably will be if ongoing discussions are anything to go by) I must add, but nonetheless, in my opinion not deliberately deceitful in any aspect.

So it has to be a "no" from me, although I accidentally clicked "unsure". D'oh!

 

[The Dude]

I agree with Simmo! and Webzcas.

Roguing a community (which is what pretty much what CAP is) is unnecessary.

I want to see CAP lift itself out of the mud and get its shit together. Lou and Warren messed up, and they know it. And I think everyone who matters knows this as well.

I can see roguing Cardspike for allegedly screwing over affs and players (FWIW - there have been NO PABs submitted concerning this operation). But that's about it.

The Certificate could be considered "bogus" if the aff program is not meeting its requirements perhaps. But I wouldn't go further than that.

The CAP affiliates should be trying to fix what's broken via their voices, or vote with their feet like a number of us have chosen to do. I don't think it's a time to continue to slap CAP around at the moment.

There are discussions at the moment that gives me hope that change for the better will be happening. Time will tell. It's to early to talk about rogue-dom.

LOL "rogue-dom", get it? (just jivin' you dom)

 

[The Dude]

...I say the best person would be Bryan (CM) to take it over.
This way Bryan will have one for the players & one for the affiliates.
...

And I can call it CAAP (Casinomeister Accredited Affiliate Programs)

 

[mercy]

Better yet, instead of taking over Cap, you can start your own affy program

 

[The Dude]

Better yet, instead of taking over Cap, you can start your own affy program

I'll call it Casinomisers.

 

[Simmo!]

I'll call it Casinomisers.

Yeah now I come to think of it, I don't remember you buying a round of drinks last weekend

Ps. I changed my accidentally cast vote from "unsure" to "no"

 

[Webzcas]

This poll was public. However since I voted no, I am now unable to view who voted. Has it been made private or am I missing something.?

 

[GaryWatson]

Some very valid points on the "NAY" side but I still firmly beleive that CAP/EM cannot police themselves, their interests lay elsewhere, a point which is becoming increasing appparent. A leopard can't change its spots.


I would like to point to the page below

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

and a quote at CAP

russell@totesport
Certified Partner - Totesport

From a merchant's point of view, I rather naively considered the 'certification' to mean that my program would be screened by CAP and if it passed I'd have the opportunity (at a cost) to promote the program alongside other reputable brands who operate to similar standards.

On top of that the group has reinvested in a venture "Cardspike", which has systematically ripped off they community, they claim to protect. (Note : Still under debate)


IMO, the intent is worse than the crime itself.

This issue goes far beyond the CAP community and should be distinguished as such.

There are 2 sides to every story but a disagreement over the word "Certification" will never in a million years fix the underlying problem.

If they want constructive critisim I feel there is no other option other than to start off with the negatives and balance them off.


Time form me to bow out of the conversation.

 

[The Dude]

This poll was public. However since I voted no, I am now unable to view who voted. Has it been made private or am I missing something.?

Checking...

 

[spearmaster]

I can view the results as before, but it seems one can no longer view who voted for what.

 

[Webzcas]

I can view the results as before, but it seems one can no longer view who voted for what.

I can see the results but not who voted for what like you. I guess the OP made the poll private. Which kind of makes sense.

 

[GaryWatson]

I can see the results but not who voted for what like you. I guess the OP made the poll private. Which kind of makes sense.

I made it a public vote which has been changed (moderated). In hind sight the later is probably a safer option. People have their own reasons for wanting to remain anon and thats fair enough.

 

[BingoT]

Can I ask
Does it matter who Votes Yes,No or Unsure?
And if you vote yes watch out lol
I voted unsure because I want to see what goes on for a little bit.Give it time things will change for the better. (I Hope)

 

[The Dude]

Actually, I left it be. When Webzcas mentioned that it was no longer pubic, I checked into it, and I can't seem to edit it to make it so (public). I'm still checking into this to see what's up. The software was recently upgraded so it may be a bug.

I think the people were voting initially with the understanding that their votes would be public, not private. I find that "private" polls get a better response because some people don't want to show their colors outright.

 

[Simmo!]

I made it a public vote which has been changed (moderated). In hind sight the later is probably a safer option. People have their own reasons for wanting to remain anon and thats fair enough.

I may have done that inadvertantly when I went in as admin to change my false vote. Didn't notice but seems likely.

 

[mojo]

I have been thinking on this poll and I didnt want to respond until I got my head around it. I was thinking that we would be roguing an entire community but that is not so.

This poll asks if we should rogue this business model. I say yes. Disgruntled bannee? Perhaps. But my real issue is Effective Media promoting sites on CAP and the coverup. No business can be run like this so if we must rogue someone to prompt them just to do the right thing than it is what it is.

Here is my history with cap.

This is the post that got me banned:

At the risk of being beat up here at CAP, the title of this thread and subsequent posts does not invite an affiliate manager to partake in a business-like discussion. I see no goal towards a resolution, merely accusations and alienating a very good affiliate manager. If I were Nicolas, I would never post here again after being told my program was subject to theivery, shaving and lying. (I know, it was nothing personal against Nicolas).

Ok, bracing myself lol.

Regards,
Mojo

Since that post, I have been wearing this prison suit for a year and a half now for the whole world to see on CAP. Not a dam thing I can do about it. If you look up mojo you will see.

My avatar was changed by Lou for all my business partners to see. If I was out of line than fine, ban me. Its his forum. But really, change my avatar forever for all to see? That is called humiliation.

But that's beside the point.

Repeating myself..This poll asks if we should rogue this business model. I say yes. Disgruntled bannee? Perhaps. But my real issue is Effective Media promoting sites on CAP and the lies.

 

[jetset]

I have voted no. As I believe you cannot rogue the CAP Community and by roguing CAP that is exactly what you would be doing.

Changes need to be made at CAP undoubtedly of which Bryan has come up with some very good ideas in the Cap Solutions Thread he started a few days ago.

To be honest I feel this poll is ill timed and regardless of it's intentions could prove another outlet to bash CAP with, which we don't need to be honest.

If you are unhappy with the way CAP is run and the lack of percieved transparency which has been well documented over the last month, then do what I have done. Vote with your feet and refrain from posting there and boycott their numerous conferences.

However I am willing to give CAP the community and Affiliate Media the chance to turn CAP around and if in the coming weeks and months they make the necessary changes needed in my view, then I would gladly return.

Good point - and nice to see a balanced and considered view that reminds CAP members of their ultimate and powerful vote.

 

[mojo]

I can see roguing Cardspike for allegedly screwing over affs and players (FWIW - there have been NO PABs submitted concerning this operation). But that's about it.

I actually went to PAL to let them know that CM would be accepting PABS as per your advice. Kaus assisted me with that and sent Randy over here. However, he was greeted by Dominique who pm'd him to talk to Warren. Randy did not get any response here except by Dom.

Originally Posted by Ridge
Hello I am Randy and I was a long time member of PAP/CAP. I had the screen name Ridge on both those forums too before I was banned for speaking about about not getting paid. I was lucky enough to get a good start with Cardspike and even built to dedicated Cardspike sites and I have a very active forum with some high stakes grinders that I signed up there.

You guys know the story that follows, we never got paid, we started several thread to try and get a resolution and in the end we got banned for speaking out at PAP and CAP..

To date I have only been paid a small amount directly from Warren Jolly and I was told to keep quiet and I would get the rest. After a couple more months I realized I was never getting paid and started speaking with Lou and Warren to get paid.. They threatened me, cussed, me and finally banned me..

I have documentation of everything including PM's, Emails, IM's, and screenshots from Lou, Warren, Greg Powell (Former AM).

My stats were altered and my Cardspike affiliate account has since been locked/Closed - I am doing rakeback there so I still have players but cannot get paid, see stats or even log in.. I have emailed Cake Poker several times and they are not helping get my players, money, or my account unlocked.

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post the screenshots of my affiliate account before my stats were altered, so I will wait until I hear something back..

This whole mess has really took a toll on me and I really want to put it behind me, but if there is a chance we can finally see our money and maybe Cake Poker will step up and kick CS off their network.


I will be more than happy to send an Admin here every bit of documentation I have on this issue..

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/28790/

 

[lots0]

One of my favorite true life sayings...
"Screw me once, shame on you.... Screw me twice, shame on me."

Another true saying...
"A leopard never changes it spots."

Here is my own saying...
"Thieves and con men will never voluntarily give up up their cash cow."


What is the CAP Community?
The public CAP forums looks to me to be nothing more than a way to recruit webmasters to become 3rd tier affiliates under CAP...
Why would anyone want to save that? Simple answer, they got money involved...

 

[dominique]

Why would anyone want to save that? Simple answer, they got money involved...

For the umpteenth time, I have no money involved. CAP is a community of my friends. We support each other and help each other out and we have done so for many years.

Together we have achieved quite a few significant changes in the industry, and I hope we will achieve many more.

If I have any financial interest, it is the benefit of a better industry for affiliates and a better working environment for myself as well as everyone else. There is a financial benefit in setting proper business guidelines in an unregulated industry, and on that level, I do have a financial interest, as well as an ethical one.

I know you had an unpleasant altercation with Lou, and I am sorry not everyone can get along. The old Hippie in me wants peace and love but reality is not cooperating. Believe me, I'd just as rather send out a bunch of flowers and sing pretty songs about a better world. It's not gonna happen in my lifetime though, so I fix what I can and some things just cannot be fixed.

That doesn't mean that nothing can be fixed, or that one has to throw out the baby with the bathwater (since we are quoting sayings here).