Should CAP be rogued?

[lots0]

The public CAP forums looks to me to be nothing more than a way to recruit webmasters to become 3rd tier affiliates under CAP...

I'm going to start calling CAP by it's full name... Casino Affiliate Programs, always calling it 'CAP' makes it sound like some kind of kiddy club instead of the money making business it really is.

Casino Affiliate Programs (the Forum) is and has been in the business of recruiting 3rd tier casino affiliates..

Dom, why do you keep trying to avoid saying that Casino Affiliate Programs (forum) is a money making business?

If you want to help out you or your friends business, thats cool. But don't try and feed me a bunch of crap about trying to help out the 'community'.

I do believe there is a very valid argument currently being made by a lot of people in the 'business' that the 'business' would be better off without Casino Affiliate Programs in it.

 

[dominique]

Dom, why do you keep trying to avoid saying that Casino Affiliate Programs (forum) is a money making business?

??????????? Affiliate Media is definitely a for profit company. No way could anyone organize conferences etc etc without any money. Affiliates work for money too, at least they try to make a profit. No one ever said that Affiliate Media was a non profit group. No one there expects it to be non profit. It's not a charity, it's a business.

I was referring to your remark that anyone wanting to save the CAP community was in it for some monetary gain.

 

[lots0]

??????????? Affiliate Media is definitely a for profit company. No way could anyone organize conferences etc etc without any money. Affiliates work for money too, at least they try to make a profit. No one ever said that Affiliate Media was a non profit group. No one there expects it to be non profit. It's not a charity, it's a business.

I was referring to your remark that anyone wanting to save the CAP community was in it for some monetary gain.

Cool, so you agree that the Casino Affiliate Programs Forum is a business that uses a community to make money. Nothing wrong with that. As long as it is up front with the community about how it uses them to make money...

BTW - I missed where Casino Affiliate Programs Forum discuss this money making 3rd tier affiliate scheme with it's members(who are being used in the scheme), anyone got a link?

 

[dominique]

I have no idea if there ever was such a post, but I hardly think affiliates care, they are affiliates. They know if they click on a banner with a code, someone makes some money. No reason why casinos should keep all profits to themselves. Makes more sense to have them finance info sites with part of their profits.

 

[lots0]

Well of course, why would a self proclaimed 'affiliate advocate' have information on it's site about how the affiliate business really works. Or more specifically how the site it's self is going to make money off of its members.

Dom when you started talking about saving Casino Affiliate Programs Forum for a place just to hang out with your buddies, it rang false to me.

Casino Affiliate Programs is a Business and you are working very hard to save a Business, your not doing all this just to save some teenage hangout like you try to make it sound.

Dom it also appears that you are the head of this project to save the business of Casino Affiliate Programs Forums.

After all this hard work promoting and trying to keep his business alive...
Lou is not even going to offer you a few shekels or a cut of the action...?
beggars belief...

 

[Webzcas]

I can understand why Dom wants to save CAP. It has been her home for years. People get used to Forums, it becomes part of them. My first site was a forum and it is still going. It makes no money, but it is my baby and I had to reinvent it last year, to ensure it survived. Dom imo is trying to do the same with the CAP Forum. I doubt very very much she is doing it for monetary gain IMO.

 

[lots0]

Well it's real simple.

If she is not doing it for money and she really is in charge and it really is all about the community and not all about the money...
She can... Pull all the affiliate links off the forum.

But if Dom is working for a going concern (a money making business) then lets be up front about it and not hide behind this false idea that Casino Affiliate Programs Forum is just a happy (non-profit) place for buddies to hang out...

 

[dominique]

You can believe it.

I have been offered a salary for moderating in the past and turned it down.

I am in business as an affiliate only. I don't like working for other people, I have been self employed all my life.

I value my freedom above all else. If I want to walk from CAP, I can do so anytime without any financial consequences, and that's the way I like it.

Just like I designed my website in a way that allows me to boot any program at any time for any reason without losing a beat.

No one has the power over my decisions but me. That lets me sleep well at night.

I am doing ok for myself, I have no need to sell myself to anyone for any reason. I do lots of things for free if I see fit.

I want to see the community I have contributed to for some 8 years to thrive and be useful to all. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[vinylweatherman]

I had to vote unsure, even though I have a bad gut feeling about the whole thing. The allegations from banned members that following the ban, their accounts were hijacked by "staff" is very serious, and would be classed as a mixture of fraud and defamation. If anything should be "rogued", it would be the seal that is awarded to the individual programmes if it were the case that no vetting was taking place as stated, and that the seal was simply sold.

My first bad impression was the start of the spat between CAP and J Todd, I do not understand exactly what initiated this, but it seems J Todd is just as bad to me in his belief and support of the Gambling Wages (Virtual Casinos) programe, who are STILL screwing players, if not affiliates.

I do not know to what extent CAP holds sway, after all, when I made my website I was under no obligation to join a body like CAP to gain the right to dabble with a few banners, and my impression of CAP has been that they hold regular conferences around the world to offer information, seminars, and networking for the bigger webmasters - and may be the biggest, but not the only body that can do this.

The London incident nearly made me vote YES, but it seems to be a personal score that has been played out in a very public venue, and worst of all, a venue where the participants themselves were "at the office" so to speak.

 

[lots0]

I want to see the community I have contributed to for some 8 years to thrive and be useful to all. Is that so hard to understand?

No it's not.

But thats not what all this appears to be about.

If it is not about the money... just remove the money aspect, then it would be easy to believe you.

But with all those affy links on the forum and the current business model
(not to mention the lack of business ethics of the owners) it is hard to believe you Dom.

 

[dominique]

Maybe so. Nothing I can do about that. People will think what they want to think, and to me, it's never been about what people think. It's about doing the right thing. And at this point in time, this looks to be the right thing to do to me.

I never expected CAP to be a charity, it's obviously a business and always will be. It happens to host a community I care about and that's fine by me.

 

[lots0]

Dom have you been taking writing lessons from political speech writers? Not a single direct question addressed and staying right on message, Bravo.

Hey, I expected nothing less, I even said so around here somewhere...
Business back to usual at Casino Affiliate Programs. With Dom as the 'Honest Faced" front 'man' and Lou pulling the strings...

Too much money involved for it to be any other way.

 

[Casinomeister]

Admin Note: chill time

Okay - time to chill. The topic was whether or not CAP should be rogued. This is not a Dom bash thread - nor should it be a CAP bash.

Keep the posts objective please.

 

[LaurieJim]

Maybe so. Nothing I can do about that. People will think what they want to think, and to me, it's never been about what people think. It's about doing the right thing. And at this point in time, this looks to be the right thing to do to me.

i have been reading along on the different threads and i had to vote no, so many twists and turns in this issue, i honestly believe in dominique as she has always shown good judgement in her posts here and seems to be a fair person and wants to serve whats better for all even if it should lose her a friendship along the way, im just a player not a affy, but dom has came on here and posted to every question, so that alone speaks volumes imo.........laurie

 

[dominique]

I don't feel Lottso was bashing me, he is just being Lottso and wants to get to the bottom of things and that's ok by me. We have seen eye to eye on other issues previously, and if that's not so this time, that's ok.

No offense taken, probably next issue that comes up we'll see eye to eye again.

 

[lots0]

Nope not Bashing...

But you have to admit, it's going to be hard to make an argument to Rogue Casino Affiliate Programs, without appearing to 'Bash" them.

 

[Antonia1953]

I am not an affiliate and the online gambling community does not contribute to my income in any way. My interests are strictly landbased and machines only. I've been moving machines for 35 years. I will not say that I am not exploring the industry as a whole, but I will say, I am a player. I voted NO and did so, due to deductive reasoning.

I do not believe that CAP can be reformed or fixed, nor do I believe it can be removed forcefully. They grew with the accomodation, participation and acceptance of the industry and have been beneficial to it in some compacity. It is a "grease money" operation, but the industry is loaded with them and none of it is right and it will not meet the test of time.

To me, from the industry standpoint, it is clear that a separate entity is required to establish true recognition of talent, industry education, establishment and enforcement of standards and recourse for not meeting those standards. It should not be controlled by one or two individuals, but by a group of industry leaders. There should not be any exchange of money or reward for participation in any positions of leadership. Elect them. Yes, I'm saying let them run side-by-side. Community need will sort what is CAPs and what is industry, as their behavior will be monitored and judged by a community.

What would calling them a ROGUE accomplish, other than provoking a return action. It would also create a spectre of being an act of retaliation by an individual, that may be playing a key role of leadership in establishing a new entity. CAP is also a pioneer in this industry. Think industry...Think futuristically.

I believe that nothing good is accomplished without communication between conflicting parties and only if they can meet on the common ground that binds them. Otherwise, the best result you can hope for is a detente.

 

[rowmare]

You can believe it.

I have been offered a salary for moderating in the past and turned it down.

I'm surprised to hear that, because I was told a few years ago (just before I became a mod at CAP) that you requested a salary from Lou for all the time you spent at CAP and were turned down. You then stayed off the forums for a few days - I witnessed that myself. I'm sure they were lying, though.

Well, it was a long time ago. Just thought you might want a heads up about what's been said about you behind your back.

About roguing Casino Affiliate Programs:

Casino Affiliate Programs should absolutely be rogued! It's intolerable to even think that CAP owners can do everything they've done, from editing posts of banned members at their forums, to fraudulently 'certifying' affiliate programs to ripping affiliates off via another company they own and get away with it! We have a responsibility to our industry to do whatever is in our power to discourage unethical behaviour. What we have here is possibly the most influential organization in our industry behaving in heinous ways. I'm surprised that anybody feels they need to ask this question (Should they be rogued).

 

[NASHVEGAS]

I am not an affiliate and the online gambling community does not contribute to my income in any way. My interests are strictly landbased and machines only. I've been moving machines for 35 years. I will not say that I am not exploring the industry as a whole, but I will say, I am a player. I voted NO and did so, due deductive reasoning.

I do not believe that CAP can be reformed or fixed, nor do I believe it can be removed forcefully. They grew with the accomodation, participation and acceptance of the industry and have been benficial to it in some compacity. It is a "grease money" operation, but the industry is loaded with them and none of it is right and it will not meet the test of time.

To me, from the industry standpoint, it is clear that a separate entity is required to establish true recognition of talent, industry education, establishment and enforcement of standards and recourse for not meeting those standards. It should not be controlled by one or two individuals, but by a group of industry leaders. There should not be any exchange of money or reward for participation in any communities. Elect them. Yes, I'm saying let them run side-by-side. Community need will sort what is CAPs and what is industry, as their behavior will be monitored and judged by a community.

What would calling them a ROGUE accomplish, other than provoking a return action. It would also create a spectre of being an act of retaliation by an individual, that may be playing a key role of leadership in establishing a new entity. CAP is also a pioneer in this industry. Think industry...Think futuristically.

I believe that nothing good is accomplished without communication between conflicting parties and only if they can meet on the common ground that binds them. Otherwise, the best result you can hope for is a detente.

Nail hit by head and you have just won 15 free spins

And one of my favorite quotes from Twain (not Shania):
"Yes, even I am dishonest. Not in many ways, but in some. Forty-one, I think it is."

 

[dominique]

I'm surprised to hear that, because I was told a few years ago (just before I became a mod at CAP) that you requested a salary from Lou for all the time you spent at CAP and were turned down. You then stayed off the forums for a few days - I witnessed that myself. I'm sure they were lying, though.

Well, it was a long time ago. Just thought you might want a heads up about what's been said about you behind your back.

Lol, that version is news to me.

I was miffed when Lou brought Warren on board - I think that may coincide with the timing you mention, but not sure. At that time I evaluated the implications of an increasingly commercial CAP and after discussion decided to just keep out of the business part and stick with the community. And that was about the time when I was offered a salary and declined. The matter hasn't come up since.

 

[dominique]

And one of my favorite quotes from Twain (not Shania):
"Yes, even I am dishonest. Not in many ways, but in some. Forty-one, I think it is."

You have got to love Twain!

Some of my faves:

A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

and

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

But we digress.

 

[rowmare]

No matter what we do, as long as Lou and Warren's site is top of google for 'casino affiliate programs', they will just keep on keeping on. I'm afraid that as long as they hold these serps the programs will keep on supporting them.

I suggest to all affiliates and webmasters that if they disagree with the conduct of the owners of casinoaffiliateprograms.com, that they seek out and remove any links they have going out to that site. Either that or redirect such links to articles written about recent revelations...

That is the power we have as webmasters to make a difference, not only as a group, but also as individuals.

 

[RobWin]

No matter what we do, as long as Lou and Warren's site is top of google for 'casino affiliate programs', they will just keep on keeping on. I'm afraid that as long as they hold these serps the programs will keep on supporting them.

I suggest to all affiliates and webmasters that if they disagree with the conduct of the owners of casinoaffiliateprograms.com, that they seek out and remove any links they have going out to that site. Either that or redirect such links to articles written about recent revelations...

That is the power we have as webmasters to make a difference, not only as a group, but also as individuals.

I did manage to get close with the article I published...

 

[AussieDave]

I've always held the belief that most people directly & or indirectly connected to online gaming venues have the same goal. Which is to deliver game play that is fair, trustworthy and above all transparent.

Perhaps the fundamental inability to work together towards these goals is sometimes flawed because of egos. Or other times by conflicting interests. Be that as it may, I genuinely hold the philosophy that this industry can rise to represent a truly impressive standard - one which we can all be proud of.

Some of the current issues with Casino Affiliate Program are not just isolated to CAP. Although I don't agree with some of the choices made by Lou or his representatives, placing a black ban on CAP in my view would be counter productive for our industry on a whole.

I do hold empathy towards those who have been hurt by these events, but for those of you who can look past this and look towards a bigger picture, I sincerely believe we can all grow from these mistakes.

For me it's very hard to point the finger at one entity, when on the other hand other entities within the affiliate network & further a field run in a less that acceptable manner also.

As an example, giving an affiliate program status based purely on a paid dollar contribution is wrong. However allowing an aff program to keep its status quo when things go pear shaped or to look the other way when it is clearly affecting both players and affiliates is a travesty. However this happens on a daily basis in our industry.

Obviously there are no easy fixes.
However maybe a collective representation drawn from respected key figures within the online gaming industry, could develop a set of common and agreed protocols, which would serve to build a foundation for a united entities alliance.

Some times we as industry people forget to see the trees for the forest. After all these forums, affiliate associations and the entire gambit of the online gaming industry would not amount to zip if it were not for players who patronise these venues.

Cheers
T

 

[NASHVEGAS]

You have got to love Twain!

Indeed, Mark Twain had the incredible ability to merge wit with wisdom and perspective whether in writing or his speeches. He left contributions for the ages on just about every subject matter........................If only I could remember his great quote on internet message board dynamics. On the tip of my tongue.

Shania (she was actually named Eilleen when I briefly met her ~ 15+ years ago at a charity event) , well , she is easy (on the i's) so she gets some love too

BACK TO PROGRESS,PROGRESS,PROGRESS!!!!