Should CAP be rogued?

[Webzcas]

JTodd has made a great post over on the GPWA detailing the history of what actually is wrong with CAP. Well worth a read IMO.

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[The Dude]

JTodd has made a great post over on the GPWA detailing the history of what actually is wrong with CAP. Well worth a read IMO.

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Some very good points. They really have a history of being bullies to their competitors - or people who they think are their competitors. This is one of the areas which I mentioned in the CAP solutions thread that needs to be addressed: support the webmasters - don't screw them out of their ideas.

The excuse of "well it's a business" is bullshit. Businesses run in this fashion WILL FAIL in this industry. Being a bully may work if you're selling shoes, cars or real estate, but this industry is unique - it won't work here.

Back to the rogue topic...

Rogue or no, and if so - why?

 

[GaryWatson]

Back to the rogue topic...

Rogue or no, and if so - why?

Rogued. Too many intergrity issues to be considered anything else. Bryan, people look up to your assessments and on the evidence provided I feel it can only be good for the industry in general, to keep a company like that in check.

I see a lot of the good work you have done here under threat from CAP/EM. Until we have true regulation we have to rely on self policing.

If CAP/EM can turn things around, great. They have a lot of clout and can lead by example. I cannot see them do it if left to their own devices.

I feel that roguing the group could be the first step to fixing the problem. After which, its down to them to raise their standards.

 

[Webzcas]

The fact there is still silence from Affiliate Media concerning Card Spike amongst other things, I am seriously considering changing my vote from a No to a Yes Rogue.

Added to the fact it is ok for CAP to promote their Cap Euro Event over on the GPWA

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WTF!!!!!!!

Without any public comment from the Affiliate Media Management and also an apology not forthcoming, yet they continue to act as if nothing has happened. Promoting their Amsterdam conference, which is in turn trying to put the CAC out of business

This is just plain wrong and is akin to sticking two fingers up to us all.

 

[The Dude]

The fact there is still silence from Affiliate Media concerning Card Spike amongst other things, I am seriously considering changing my vote from a No to a Yes Rogue...

Ya know, I'm tending to see it the same way as you; there are many layers of rogueness - the Card Spike thing being a pretty major rogue-like problem for me.

The Certificate Seal is another thing - this (in my opinion) is deceptive, and affiliates as well as players should be made aware of this.

I'm going to be out of town for a couple of days, but during my absence I'll be kicking a lot of this around in my head. If these guys don't own up to what has been going on by the end of the week, or make some MAJOR overhaul, then I'll be doing what I do.

 

[The Dude]

At Casino Affiliate Programs we review and rate the hundreds of partner programs available. Not all of them are equal and not every operator is reputable, so we make every attempt to weed out the bad ones and present you with the best opportunities for profit. Please visit our site often and keep up to date on the latest Casino Affiliate Programs.

Is this the "Certificate" program? Am I missing something? Where is the description of what it means to be displaying a CAP certificate?

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[Webzcas]

Warning don't drink whilst reading this:

CasinoAffiliatePrograms.com (or CAP, as it's commonly known) is the largest and longest-running online gaming affiliate resource, featuring an active community forum, chat rooms, affiliate marketing tools, industry news/articles, scam alerts, and a rigorous and distinguished certification process for online casino affiliate programs. The CAP Certification Process is held in the highest regard among industry experts, and is designed to protect the integrity of affiliates and the online gaming industry as a whole.

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[AussieDave]

Without any public comment from the Affiliate Media Management and also an apology not forthcoming

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Lou and Co have been thrown some strong life lines over the past few days. Which ultimately could save CAP. Lou should not be smug but humble IMHO.

I also would have expected a public apology by now. Learning that this is not the case, forces me to also re-think my stand on this entire fiasco & draw the same type of conclusion as you've so eloquently used below

This is just plain wrong and is akin to sticking two fingers up to us all.

Cheers
T

 

[The Dude]

Warning don't drink whilst reading this:





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But it's not found anywhere at CAP (unless it's hidden).

I'm wondering if any operators or affiliate managers could explain exactly what "The CAP Certification Process" was. You can PM me if you'd like - or post it here.

 

[jas2587]

But it's not found anywhere at CAP (unless it's hidden).

I'm wondering if any operators or affiliate managers could explain exactly what "The CAP Certification Process" was. You can PM me if you'd like - or post it here.

From what I have read the certification is about how much money you wanna pay CAP not how great you are or how much you have done all about the money

 

[AussieDave]

From what I have read the certification is about how much money you wanna pay CAP not how great you are or how much you have done all about the money

With all due respect CAP is not the only aff program that places money above quality venues.

<derail>
For instance GA Partners are still Silver Affiliate Program Sponsors over at GPWA, even though the casino they represent (Golden Arch) still use the much publicised and strongly objected Line of Credit to players.

YYYhttp://www.gpwa.org/affiliateprograms/affiliate.asp?id=7145

Although I will not divulge any material posted to the private forum threads about GA Partners, I can assure people the Line of Credit was a hotly debated topic. As it was here on CM too.
</derail>


Just for the record I'm not about to be swayed by any alliance I may hold towards one aff association or the other. What Lou/CAP/Warren/Affiliate Media Management have allowed is wrong.

But from where I'm sitting things are starting to head down witch hunt alley when the topic of accredited programs are being thrown into the mix.

Cheers
T

 

[jas2587]

With all due respect CAP is not the only aff program that places money above quality venues.

<derail>
For instance GA Partners are still Silver Affiliate Program Sponsors over at GPWA, even though the casino they represent (Golden Arch) still use the much publicised and strongly objected Line of Credit to players.

YYYhttp://www.gpwa.org/affiliateprograms/affiliate.asp?id=7145

Although I will not divulge any material posted to the private forum threads about GA Partners, I can assure people the Line of Credit was a hotly debated topic. As it was here on CM too.
</derail>


Just for the record I'm not about to be swayed by any alliance I may hold towards one aff association or the other. What Lou/CAP/Warren/Affiliate Media Management have allowed is wrong.

But from where I'm sitting things are starting to head down witch hunt alley when the topic of accredited programs are being thrown into the mix.

Cheers
T

Trezz respect recieved an given but isnt this whole thread about CAP AKA Casino Affiliate Programs
an I was referring to the certification of CAP AKA Casino Affiliate Programs

Cindy

 

[mojo]

I'm going to be out of town for a couple of days, but during my absence I'll be kicking a lot of this around in my head. If these guys don't own up to what has been going on by the end of the week, or make some MAJOR overhaul, then I'll be doing what I do.

For many affiliates, eyes are upon you. Thank you for your consideration. Personally, it is important to me. I appriciate that you do what you do.

 

[jetset]

I'm thinking that corporate climb-downs are not easily accepted and may require some discussion at top management levels....but over a week has now passed since the culmination of the unpleasant events in London, along with the completion of GPWA's expose on EMG.

That should be more than enough time to put together a corporate statement which is clearly needed to bring this issue to some sort of conclusion, although bitterness will inevitably remain.

If the position taken is that the apparent conflicts of interest or "progressive disclosures" were blame-free then there's a need to justify that viewpoint imo.

I'm surprised that CAP/AMI/EMG management can't see that and have instead apparently decided to batten down the hatches and tough it out....with all the adverse perceptions that this course of action will generate and are already being manifested in this thread.

Is there a fear of legal consequences? I can't personally see where this would arise, but in common with most of us I'm on the periphery. Is it just a "full steam ahead and damn the icebergs" mentality? Who can say?

But I can say with certainty that there is a very real danger of alienating a large number of industry people at all levels if the perception is created that two fingers are being raised at all critics.

Just on a side note, I have to say that imv the promotion of the CAP event on the GPWA forum was quite cheeky, given all the foregoing angst.

Perhaps that's a positive indication that relations between the two affiliate bodies have been raised to a more "normal" and appropriate level. It says much for GPWA management that this was permitted and a more conciliatory tone supported by Michael Corfman imo.

Should GPWA decide to reciprocate with a promotion for one of its events on the CAP forum, it will be closely watched to see whether a similar management approach will be followed there.

 

[Simmo!]

That should be more than enough time to put together a corporate statement which is clearly needed to bring this issue to some sort of conclusion, although bitterness will inevitably remain.

It's possible that the opinion is that a corporate statement at this stage could just fan the fire as happened before. Maybe they think it makes more sense to wait until decisions have been made and make a statement that also shows what is being done. Many corporates take that path.

I'm surprised that CAP/AMI/EMG management can't see that and have instead apparently decided to batten down the hatches and tough it out....

There have beena couple of developments that make me think they are thinking hard about this, most notably the thread they asked Dom to run regards how members feel about certification, although what impact that will have is still uncertain.

Just on a side note, I have to say that imv the promotion of the CAP event on the GPWA forum was quite cheeky, given all the foregoing angst.

Tricky one: Alex works for an independent company on organisation and promotion of CAP conferences so he's only doing his job IMO, and it's up to Michael to decide who posts what on their forums. But I agree that it gives an odd impression to those who don't see the distinction, especially as some of his posts give the impression he is employed by CAP.

 

[Webzcas]

It's possible that the opinion is that a corporate statement at this stage could just fan the fire as happened before. Maybe they think it makes more sense to wait until decisions have been made and make a statement that also shows what is being done. Many corporates take that path.

After what has transpired over the last few months, surely it would make sense to actually release a public statement with a conciliatory tone. By keeping silent now of all times, makes a bad situation worse IMO. Not answering Bryan's questions over on the CAP Forum concerning Card Spike and then temporarily banning him was a really bad move. Making a public statement now to the affect that they ( Affiliate Media ) are sorry would be a good way to start mending broken fences.

There have beena couple of developments that make me think they are thinking hard about this, most notably the thread they asked Dom to run regards how members feel about certification, although what impact that will have is still uncertain.

Great an open discussion on the 'Certification' procedure with no actual input from the owners of CAP. In my view this is a deflection from the other issues such as Card Spike. Why not deal with Card Spike first, then the other issues afterwards. After all it is affiliates who are still owed money by the Card Spike program. This should be the number one issue addressed by CAP, as they are meant to represent AFFILIATES.

Tricky one: Alex works for an independent company on organisation and promotion of CAP conferences so he's only doing his job IMO, and it's up to Michael to decide who posts what on their forums. But I agree that it gives an odd impression to those who don't see the distinction, especially as some of his posts give the impression he is employed by CAP.

Not tricky at all, if common sense prevailed Alex would not have posted what he did. Michael unlike Lou lets everything industry related get discussed. Why should he have to censor his forums? However the timing of the post relating to a Cap Amsterdam Sponsored Event, on the GPWA of all places shows a distinct lack of tact and no concern for the pressing issues that affiliates want addressed. As I stated previously, it is akin to CAP giving us ( affiliates ) two fingers.

BTW thanks for changing my vote from no to yes as I requested in a pm

 

[Simmo!]

However the timing of the post relating to a Cap Amsterdam Sponsored Event, on the GPWA of all places shows a distinct lack of tact and no concern for the pressing issues that affiliates want addressed.

Yeah that was a major eye-opener for me I must admit, although it was scheduled before all the issues arose (Pre Barcelona in fact), so the latter part of your statement I don't think is especially relevant.

 

[Webzcas]

Yeah that was a major eye-opener for me I must admit, although it was scheduled before all the issues arose (Pre Barcelona in fact), so the latter part of your statement I don't think is especially relevant.

It's very relevant as the post was made yesterday! Promoting a CAP Event on the GPWA yesterday which is directly competing with the CAC, of which the GPWA is openly supporting.

Business as usual guys, forget about what has gone on over the last few months and come to our conference in Amsterdam.

What has the scheduling got to do with this?

Meanwhile the CAC no longer has a forum on CAP.

 

[Simmo!]

It's very relevant as the post was made yesterday!

Oops - sorry. Misread your post - thought you meant the timing of the scheduling But at the end of the day it's up to Michael who posts on his forum.

 

[Webzcas]

I have no issue with Michael allowing anyone to post on his forum. In fact it is commendable that he allows it. My issue is with CAP acting as if nothing has happened. The post made yesterday promoting the CAP Euro Amsterdam Event was nothing short of audacious IMO.

I thought I had made this clear already.

 

[AussieDave]

isnt this whole thread about CAP AKA Casino Affiliate Programs
an I was referring to the certification of CAP AKA Casino Affiliate Programs

Yes the thread is about CAP. I wasn't singling your post out per se. What I wanted to add was that it's just not CAP that favours money over casino/aff program integrity.

I don't think it's appropriate to just single out CAP on this. When it's the same story for other affiliate associations. IMHO if people have an issue with CAP doing this, then it should also also be an issue for the others too.

Although there is no love loss for CAP here, on the same token to just sit by idle and say nothing is not right, least in my book.


Cheers
T

 

[jetset]

After what has transpired over the last few months, surely it would make sense to actually release a public statement with a conciliatory tone. By keeping silent now of all times, makes a bad situation worse IMO. Not answering Bryan's questions over on the CAP Forum concerning Card Spike and then temporarily banning him was a really bad move. Making a public statement now to the affect that they ( Affiliate Media ) are sorry would be a good way to start mending broken fences.

Great an open discussion on the 'Certification' procedure with no actual input from the owners of CAP. In my view this is a deflection from the other issues such as Card Spike. Why not deal with Card Spike first, then the other issues afterwards. After all it is affiliates who are still owed money by the Card Spike program. This should be the number one issue addressed by CAP, as they are meant to represent AFFILIATES.

Not tricky at all, if common sense prevailed Alex would not have posted what he did. Michael unlike Lou lets everything industry related get discussed. Why should he have to censor his forums? However the timing of the post relating to a Cap Amsterdam Sponsored Event, on the GPWA of all places shows a distinct lack of tact and no concern for the pressing issues that affiliates want addressed. As I stated previously, it is akin to CAP giving us ( affiliates ) two fingers.

BTW thanks for changing my vote from no to yes as I requested in a pm

I agree - perception and trust are vitally important elements in this industry - too important to be left at risk by corporate torpor or wilful intent to ignore (take your pick)

This situation is being aggravated by the lack of at the very least an acknowledgement that there is a problem here that requires attention and is being seriously considered.

 

[dominique]

I'm surprised that CAP/AMI/EMG management can't see that and have instead apparently decided to batten down the hatches and tough it out....with all the adverse perceptions that this course of action will generate and are already being manifested in this thread.

No one has done that. The issues (all of them) will be dealt with by the CAP membership one by one and handed over to admin for resolution.

The first issue open for discussion was accreditation of programs, the community ideas and suggestions are being sorted out this week, and presented for consideration the next week. After drafting, the programs will get time to input before a final version is drawn up. This is a legal contract, and after all parties gave their input, lawyers will finalize it. It is not happening over night.

Today I started a new open discussion regarding Board etiquette and bannings and this will be dealt with in the same fashion.

This is the beginning of a more membership driven CAP and in order to allow this, we have to allow the membership time to give the necessary input.

If you are looking for CAP to change things or make statements without collecting membership input first, it is not going to happen.

This is my idea and I stand firmly behind it. My concern lies completely with the membership, and IMO they are the ones who have a right to say what happens in their community.

If the membership is happy with admin's following through, then all is well as far as I am concerned.

All the speculations, opinions or rogueing in the world are not going to stop this process.

 

[Webzcas]

Dom, the membership discussions are all well and good, but what about Card Spike? Why are Affiliate Media silent over Card Spike? When are all the affiliates owed money by the Card Spike Affiliate Program going to get paid?

Finally when are Affiliate Media going to apologise?

Surely these two issues should receive priority, with the other issues being addressed afterwards.

 

[dominique]

Card Spike will come when I am done looking for unpaid people, which I am not finding except one whose payment is in dispute. When that dispute is settled, and previous discussions are not in progress, I will address card spike in the same manner as the other issues.

Give a person some time to work! Too many issues, too little time. I will proceed at a speed I can maintain. Adressing too many issues at once will just leave us with things discussed and unsolved.

My plan is in place, and I am just going to follow it. If the community is actually going to be able to input and expect results, all of this will take time.