It is nice to know you still can give almost perfect stats on cherry picked questions that suit your style and that you choose to answer with exact info...while glossing over other questions with some mumbo jumbo...that seem to make you squirm...Um, where are your stats on this??? Just a general, "It does happen"??? Interesting.My thoughts exactly. Especially when one tries to hand pick questions they only want to answer directly...I guess over 17 years of online gaming is a "small" amount as you say, yes? Because I , too, have seen these changes..but then you are the so called expert that can say whether or not this was a minute amount of play one has done for so many years..in your perception of reality and all these years do not constitute enough play for anyone to "notice" a shift in play on the games...Sure, I believe...because you are the so called "expert".
I also quit depositng except for a token now and then...because as you said, if you believe they are not on the up and up, move on...I did, and I know many others have and will continue to do so.
In all the years I have played, I finally saw my first Random disappear in a casino last night while I was playing my monthly token...odds of that??? Too funny...it reset at a $1000 ...and I said, to myself...same ole, same ole, but at least I got to see my first one "disappear"...
How about degree/example F as in F*CKED.***
Interesting thread.
I can only speak for myself, by I played with the 'hope' that I could perhaps win big, or at least get a decent size win to withdraw with.
I never felt happy when losing. At the same time, there were varying degrees of unhappiness based on any particular session.
A) If I deposited $100, and was spinning at $1-2 per spin on RTG slots, and lost within a few minutes, I shouldn't be all that surprised (mind you I haven't done this much over the past couple of years). In the end, I wouldn't be happy, but hardly angry or depressed because I was basically sticking my chin out waiting to get smacked anyway. No surprises there.
B) If I deposited $100, got white hot (on the very odd occasion), and took it up to a substantial amount, more than I had anticipated (as I'm generally just looking to double my investment), and broke my initial plan to withdraw at a certain targeted amount, did well, but only to eventually go bust, then I'm more numb than anything. I'm unhappy once I come to my senses, and truly disappointed with myself more than anything.
C) If I deposited $150 with a monthly match bonus at a reputable casino, losing month after month, when I'm only placing bets in the .09-27 cents range, and losing it within a couple/few hours time, then I'm very unhappy. I'm unhappy (and likely bitter) because there wasn't even a hint of 'hope' that I could win big, and if this repeats itself over dozens of deposits, it's hard trying to contain my resentment, by being 'level-headed'.
Personally, if people cry "rigged" when they've experience something similar to examples A) or B), it's VERY hard to feel any sympathy for them. They've either bet too much too soon, or that they had the golden opportunity to withdraw a substantial amount, only to lose focus while nodding off to delusions of grandeur while the reels were spinning.
But if it's example C), and the sessions repeat themselves all the time, and they're betting small amounts, and going bust in a very short amount of time, with little value on their deposits, with little to no hint of 'hope'/'entertainment'/'adventure' etc, then I would understand if they're searching for reasons for their lousy gameplay; because 'luck' should swing both ways and it hasn't been for ages.
If they've been playing at the same casino for a year or even years, deposited thousands of dollars, and have never been able to double-up from where their initial balance was at, and their money just drops down in moments just like the last time, just like the time before that, and just like the dozens of times before that, it's hard coming away from the experience without wondering if they're not getting a fair shake at winning.
Looking at the other side of the spectrum, if the other camp fully accepts that the games aren't rigged, that betting systems don't work, and that the player will ultimately be on the wrong side of variance in the long run anyway, which is accepted here as being the 'mature' way of looking at it, and by that I mean that they've REALLY accepted it, not just understand it, but accept it as truth, I can't completely understand why they would want to continue playing either. It's hard fathoming that either side fully endorses being on the wrong side of variance over the long haul, committed to losing when all is said and done, at least from a player's perspective; that being mine.
I can understand if someone is gambling for fun - knowing that they're likely not going to win - which is something they might do every couple of months or so at the local bingo hall/casino, but let's face it, if someone is coming here everyday, posting everyday, you'd have to think that the members here (those who are players), are quite serious about online gambling, to the point where it can't just be about 'fun' anymore.
*The term 'rigged' to everyone in the online industry, gets so many knee-jerk responses, you'd think it was on par with calling someone a racist.
***
"Luck is the residue of opportunity and design." - Branch Rickey
One more point I'd like to add, which is about 'luck'. If the software isn't rigged or at least manipulated, there's still a house edge/variance, and there are software providers (or the casinos) who can adjust their payouts, and all of that other stuff, there's really not much left over for any kind of a real unfabricated 'luck' factor, now is there?
Maybe my understanding of it all isn't necessarily correct, but that's the way I interpret it.
Steed
***
This may end up being a bit of a babble but bare with me.
i hope dogboy or someone with some know can answer me this question, because this is what i have believed for some time. With b&m and online casino's.
I know that on all land based slots we have RNG's (online casino's similar) but do they work the same?
From what i know the RNG in land based slots is set to go through a number of cycles . The example i will use is 5,000 spins. So if the RTP is set to 95% the rng has to spit out 4,500 winning combinations and 500 losing combinations then it resets itself to 5,000 and starts over.
so a player may just be playing the slot at the time the rng has decided to spit out a chunk of those 500 loses (which leads people to think it is rigged). (i know i have felt this pain many of times in b&m)
If its the same for online casino's (slots) then the rng would be set to thousands upon thousands of spins. Because we are talking about a much larger scale here (online slots which have millions of spins a day)
This could explain why some of you think its rigged when u jump online and can't hit anything. You may have just played that slot at the time the RNG has decided to throw out a few 100 - 1,000 loses in its cycle..
b&m or online Slots where never designed for you to win so we all take loses bitterly
However i also agree with Online casino's having to show u the RTP. By law in australia all b&m's must show the RTP.. Although its not obviously shown and 90% of people don't check the RTP.
Hopefully soon someone takes a stance and regulates the online industry.
Hmmm yer sorry a bit of a dribble here ..i know what i was trying to say just hope its come across right..lol
Mattsgame.
The scenario that you are describing is anything but random.
I'm certainly no mathematician, but what you are describing is impossible for something that is considered to be random and if something is truly random there can not be any such thing as cycles. To me random means you could spin a slot 1 million times and you could get a payback of 25% or get a payback of 1000% at any given time or day. Consider it your good fortune if you get a payback of 1000% or consider it a bad day if your payback is 25%.
Outstanding post Dogboy, and pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about the whole "rigged" argument. Not only do players believe what they WANT to believe...the mind will rationalize things in strange ways. Maybe someone loses more than they should or wanted to...the brain starts finding "patterns" to explain away what has happened. You can make yourself see anything, if you really want to. The 5000 spins comment above is SO true. When I read posts of people who say they deposited $100, took $1 or $2 spins and busted....I shake my head. You are giving yourself only a minimum of 100 spins to hit something. Not near enough. You can easily bust out in minutes, and more than likely, you will...on ANY software.
This is why I deposit very small, and bet very small. Sometimes on RTG slots, I will start off only playing 10 lines or 10c bets. Because I know if the machine isn't hitting right away...I could be there for a while, lol. Betting smaller ensures I'm going to get more spins...thus giving me more of a chance to "maybe" hit something.
Don't want to ramble, but that really is a great post.
OK as someone with programming experience, slot design knowledge, playtesting experience for a large software company and most of all as a player who has played millions of spins (without auto) and a keen analytical mind I will give my thoughts. Again.
People really need to read between the lines in what Dogboy says and does not say.
He is honest to a point just like the slots are. Just like we all might be if we had a vested(invested) interest in a subject.
I have made many posts in the pasts highlighting the how, where and why of this.
Rigged is such a strong term and implies a player can never win, I don't believe any of the main software providers rig their slots in that way, it would be self defeating, though it sure will seem like they are rigged after a very big win.
The evidence for the slots to be dynamically weighted is overwhelming though I am sure they maintain an overall set RTP but then again that is the problem isn't it?
If anyone who has played RTG for any length of time honestly believes that all outcomes have equal chance on every spin and never change then God help you is all I can say.
If you want to see how they operate then simply play on after your winning streak instead of cashing out (redeposits over a period dilute the evidence) then calculate your RTP from the high point to bust.
You will see that your RTP falls way below anything previously over the same number of spins. There is also a very marked difference in scatter and wild symbol hit frequency.
Factual indisputable evidence which I can produce right here though I would rather not embarrass the RTG casinos concerned because they are amongst the better ones. That sounds odd but at some RTG you will be very hard pushed to hit big wins because the RTP is set much lower to begin with.
When Dogboy says the operator can not directly change the reel strips he is probably being honest but he neglects to say that they have no need to because the whole operation is automated and constant calculations are made through the use of algorithms which in turn dictate the weighting.
I have played many RTG slots where the reel layout on free spins has changed before my eyes. Sometimes in my favour sometimes not.
An example would be Ronin will sometimes have Two Ronin symbols on the last reel sometimes one in the same session.
That is fine and even legitimate but it shows how the weighting is dynamic because after the flip between win,win and lose,lose,lose I can guarantee I have never seen two Ronin symbols during the feature.
I actually think the RTP being altered only by request and through reel strip changes is a bit of a Red herring though or Dogboy disinformation if you like.
It certainly seems disingenuous.
There are times when important symbols simply go AWOL over hundreds of spins across different slots.
The only explanation I can consider for this can be that weighting has been applied to the probabilities of the stop positions and this applies universally to all slots.
In perspective it is like calling heads or tails 10 times correctly but always after such an event calling the next twelve incorrectly.
Or for every unlikely winning streak there is a more unlikely losing streak.
The system balancing itself.
All that said IMO RTG are as "fair" as any other software out there. In fact I would say their payouts in general are higher than MGS or Rival.
BTW if you think RTG are rigged then you should try Rival, laughable.
RTG are not rogue but Rival certainly are IMHO but it is just an opinion and not directed at a specific Casino, just the parameters the software operates in.
PS
In answer to the question.
Yes they are random but it is the wrong question.
The real question is are they fair?
Well they are at least as fair B&M slots, I will say that.
You'd actually think the rogues would have their RTP set at the higher percentage, since they aren't going to pay anyway if someone wins.
The fact is takethemoney posts negative threads and posts about anything and everything negitive. Search the posts, it's like Debbie Downer on SNL! I don't know if software providers cheat, or casinos but why post the same shit over and over again without something to back it up? Geesh..Why must we go on and on about the same ole crap. If RTG cheats then all software providers do, so everyone needs to stop playing online.
Not a good poll, rather disgusting to the industry and anyone affiliated with RTG or their casino's. JMP ....
Yes chuchu, please read the whole thread. It is an interesting read.
I most liked this statement, because I agree with it to the highest degree. One MUST think for themselves in the end I believe.
