RTG's - What have we learned can be controlled in the backend?

[Bencuri]

***

One more point I'd like to add, which is about 'luck'. If the software isn't rigged or at least manipulated, there's still a house edge/variance, and there are software providers (or the casinos) who can adjust their payouts, and all of that other stuff, there's really not much left over for any kind of a real unfabricated 'luck' factor, now is there?

Though I am not a master on slots settings, but based on what I read about it so far, I think there is luck, no matter what the payout setting is. Even if the payout is bad, there should be winners, even if rarely. Until it is not preset accoarding to a personal choice made by a manager or a casino worker who the winner of the big money will be, there is luck. The setting of slots only have an impact on whether there will be more or less lucky players.

 

[lettingyouknow]

It is nice to know you still can give almost perfect stats on cherry picked questions that suit your style and that you choose to answer with exact info...while glossing over other questions with some mumbo jumbo...that seem to make you squirm...Um, where are your stats on this??? Just a general, "It does happen"??? Interesting.My thoughts exactly. Especially when one tries to hand pick questions they only want to answer directly...I guess over 17 years of online gaming is a "small" amount as you say, yes? Because I , too, have seen these changes..but then you are the so called expert that can say whether or not this was a minute amount of play one has done for so many years..in your perception of reality and all these years do not constitute enough play for anyone to "notice" a shift in play on the games...Sure, I believe...because you are the so called "expert".

I also quit depositng except for a token now and then...because as you said, if you believe they are not on the up and up, move on...I did, and I know many others have and will continue to do so.

In all the years I have played, I finally saw my first Random disappear in a casino last night while I was playing my monthly token...odds of that??? Too funny...it reset at a $1000 ...and I said, to myself...same ole, same ole, but at least I got to see my first one "disappear"...

I too was playing at a Casino last night on Tiger Treasures at iNetBet the Random while I was playing in it reset to $1,000. Were you there too? The Random was originally $1,500 over that.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

***



Interesting thread.



I can only speak for myself, by I played with the 'hope' that I could perhaps win big, or at least get a decent size win to withdraw with.



I never felt happy when losing. At the same time, there were varying degrees of unhappiness based on any particular session.



A) If I deposited $100, and was spinning at $1-2 per spin on RTG slots, and lost within a few minutes, I shouldn't be all that surprised (mind you I haven't done this much over the past couple of years). In the end, I wouldn't be happy, but hardly angry or depressed because I was basically sticking my chin out waiting to get smacked anyway. No surprises there.



B) If I deposited $100, got white hot (on the very odd occasion), and took it up to a substantial amount, more than I had anticipated (as I'm generally just looking to double my investment), and broke my initial plan to withdraw at a certain targeted amount, did well, but only to eventually go bust, then I'm more numb than anything. I'm unhappy once I come to my senses, and truly disappointed with myself more than anything.



C) If I deposited $150 with a monthly match bonus at a reputable casino, losing month after month, when I'm only placing bets in the .09-27 cents range, and losing it within a couple/few hours time, then I'm very unhappy. I'm unhappy (and likely bitter) because there wasn't even a hint of 'hope' that I could win big, and if this repeats itself over dozens of deposits, it's hard trying to contain my resentment, by being 'level-headed'.



Personally, if people cry "rigged" when they've experience something similar to examples A) or B), it's VERY hard to feel any sympathy for them. They've either bet too much too soon, or that they had the golden opportunity to withdraw a substantial amount, only to lose focus while nodding off to delusions of grandeur while the reels were spinning.



But if it's example C), and the sessions repeat themselves all the time, and they're betting small amounts, and going bust in a very short amount of time, with little value on their deposits, with little to no hint of 'hope'/'entertainment'/'adventure' etc, then I would understand if they're searching for reasons for their lousy gameplay; because 'luck' should swing both ways and it hasn't been for ages.



If they've been playing at the same casino for a year or even years, deposited thousands of dollars, and have never been able to double-up from where their initial balance was at, and their money just drops down in moments just like the last time, just like the time before that, and just like the dozens of times before that, it's hard coming away from the experience without wondering if they're not getting a fair shake at winning.




Looking at the other side of the spectrum, if the other camp fully accepts that the games aren't rigged, that betting systems don't work, and that the player will ultimately be on the wrong side of variance in the long run anyway, which is accepted here as being the 'mature' way of looking at it, and by that I mean that they've REALLY accepted it, not just understand it, but accept it as truth, I can't completely understand why they would want to continue playing either. It's hard fathoming that either side fully endorses being on the wrong side of variance over the long haul, committed to losing when all is said and done, at least from a player's perspective; that being mine.



I can understand if someone is gambling for fun - knowing that they're likely not going to win - which is something they might do every couple of months or so at the local bingo hall/casino, but let's face it, if someone is coming here everyday, posting everyday, you'd have to think that the members here (those who are players), are quite serious about online gambling, to the point where it can't just be about 'fun' anymore.



*The term 'rigged' to everyone in the online industry, gets so many knee-jerk responses, you'd think it was on par with calling someone a racist.



***



"Luck is the residue of opportunity and design." - Branch Rickey



One more point I'd like to add, which is about 'luck'. If the software isn't rigged or at least manipulated, there's still a house edge/variance, and there are software providers (or the casinos) who can adjust their payouts, and all of that other stuff, there's really not much left over for any kind of a real unfabricated 'luck' factor, now is there?



Maybe my understanding of it all isn't necessarily correct, but that's the way I interpret it.




Steed


***

How about degree/example F as in F*CKED.

 

[missmichelle]

I voted that I belive they are random. The day I don't believe it is the day I quit playing. They will always have the advantage so cheating is not necessary.

Michelle

 

[casinojack]

Of course they can set things, but what does it really matter?

A simple google search shows many of them,



As some examples. Thought I do not work with an RTG site anymore, the games are NOT rigged!

ALL online and land based casino are able to set the game RTP %, and if anyone believes otherwise, well, You are incorrect. But again, I ask, so what? It is still fair games, and very fun!

 

[takethemoney]

I voted that I belive they are random. The day I don't believe it is the day I quit playing. They will always have the advantage so cheating is not necessary.

Michelle

A potential flaw in that logic is when the economic conditions make casinos have many less players and they need a quick buck. Then what? Let's see casino can fold, run at far less profit than they are used to, or gaff the program so nobody really wins, then blame it all on the players all having bad luck. What about that possibility? I don't think everything is well in casino land for most of these casinos. I think deposits are down and the rates that the randoms used to accumulate vs. what I have seen lately just has a look of few playing or not playing for as high of stakes. I remember when some of the more well known casinos would go from the $1000 reset point to well over $5000 on some of their machines in just a week or two. Now I see some of those same casinos taking months to get to that point.

Edit: Just saw CasinoJack's post. Thanks! So, maybe they all just head for the lowest RTP setting.

 

[casinojack]

A potential flaw in that logic is when the economic conditions make casinos have many less players and they need a quick buck. Then what? Let's see casino can fold, run at far less profit than they are used to, or gaff the program so nobody really wins, then blame it all on the players all having bad luck. What about that possibility? I don't think everything is well in casino land for most of these casinos. I think deposits are down and the rates that the randoms used to accumulate vs. what I have seen lately just has a look of few playing or not playing for as high of stakes. I remember when some of the more well known casinos would go from the $1000 reset point to well over $5000 on some of their machines in just a week or two. Now I see some of those same casinos taking months to get to that point.

Are you sure the machines are NOT linked ? Linked or grouped machines go higher faster...

 

[takethemoney]

Are you sure the machines are NOT linked ? Linked or grouped machines go higher faster...

Do you believe the deposits lately are what they were a year ago, two years ago, etc?

The machines I have observed were not linked. I know how to find out when they are.

 

[Simmo!]

Of course they can set things, but what does it really matter?

A simple google search shows many of them,



As some examples. Thought I do not work with an RTG site anymore, the games are NOT rigged!

ALL online and land based casino are able to set the game RTP %, and if anyone believes otherwise, well, You are incorrect. But again, I ask, so what? It is still fair games, and very fun!

Well the pages referenced answer one question:

Configurable Payouts: 91%, 95% or 97.5%

...however perhaps CJ can answer, do the operators set these or is the change at RTG's end?

 

[Webzcas]

Of course they can set things, but what does it really matter?

A simple google search shows many of them,



As some examples. Thought I do not work with an RTG site anymore, the games are NOT rigged!

ALL online and land based casino are able to set the game RTP %, and if anyone believes otherwise, well, You are incorrect. But again, I ask, so what? It is still fair games, and very fun!

The part I highlight in bold, I actually disagree with you.

Having worked for a Microgaming Operator for 5 years, in the IT Department no less, responsible for looking after the casino and poker servers. I can confirm that no Microgaming Operator is able to set the payout %.

I doubt very much that this has changed since I left to become a full time affiliate.

 

[casinojack]

The part I highlight in bold, I actually disagree with you.

Having worked for a Microgaming Operator for 5 years, in the IT Department no less, responsible for looking after the casino and poker servers. I can confirm that no Microgaming Operator is able to set the payout %.

I doubt very much that this has changed since I left to become a full time affiliate.

Then I stand corrected, as last time I was with a MG shop was over 7 years ago. Thanks for the info.

 

[chuchu59]

The slots may be as random as it gets. However, if an operator can opt for a lower RTP from say 95% to 91% whereas it is always static for MG slots, that is rigging the payouts however you word it unless you advertise the % payout for each and evey slot. Why should it be 95% for Casino A, 93% for Casino B and 91% for casino C on identical slots.

So while the slots may be random the RTPs arent and that is riggedness imo.

 

[spearmaster]

The slots may be as random as it gets. However, if an operator can opt for a lower RTP from say 95% to 91% whereas it is always static for MG slots, that is rigging the payouts however you word it unless you advertise the % payout for each and evey slot. Why should it be 95% for Casino A, 93% for Casino B and 91% for casino C on identical slots.

So while the slots may be random the RTPs arent and that is riggedness imo.

In any gambling jurisdiction in the world, whether it be Vegas, Macau, Monte Carlo - two otherwise identical slots next to each other usually do not have the same RTP. This is not considered to be rigged.

 

[love2winalot]

hehehe, Yea, kind of like a big sign at the Casino saying, "We have 3/2 BlackJack".

There are 10 BJ tables inside, only, "one" of them is 3/2, all the others are 6/5, and unless you ask all 10 dealers, you do not know which one that is.......

 

[casinojack]

The slots may be as random as it gets. However, if an operator can opt for a lower RTP from say 95% to 91% whereas it is always static for MG slots, that is rigging the payouts however you word it unless you advertise the % payout for each and evey slot. Why should it be 95% for Casino A, 93% for Casino B and 91% for casino C on identical slots.

So while the slots may be random the RTPs arent and that is riggedness imo.

So if you played at a place with the RTP was 75%, but static, this would be more fair?

 

[takethemoney]

So if you played at a place with the RTP was 75%, but static, this would be more fair?

No, and years ago that is what you could expect to get on nickel machines in Northern Nevada.

Hey, is it considered bad form to log into the casino, go to live chat and ask if they are running 91, 95 or 97.5% RTP settings this week? Anyone know how to tell what your game is set to?

Speaking of RTP on landbased casinos, it was my understanding that if the casino ordered a machine with an RTP of say 95%, it was static and it came from IGT already set that way. I also read once that it was illegal in Nevada to change the chip. I have personally witnessed the chip being changed out in the indian land based casinos. They do this blantantly right in front or people. With this much access I'm sure hiring someone to burn them gaffed chips is easy to do. This place is packed and you rarely ever see a jackpot. It used to be fun for the first couple years they were open, then the bastards got greedy.

 

[Wildfire7]

In reality this poll should have had a third variable, "Undecided". But undecided would mean the player could be swayed whichever way the wind is blowing.
Exactly the same way as many who voted yes or no.

As many of the people who voted no may have only done so because they have incurred recent bad results, and visa versa for the people who voted yes.
Now you ask these same people, the same question with the opposite run of current results and watch the pendulum swing the other way.

It is interesting that more people have voted, no they think RTG is not random.
More people lose when gambling than win, so it is only natural to expect more no votes from players who are convinced runs of bad luck are not random.

I personally voted yes it is random, as I firmly believe that the runs I have experienced are consistent with what you would expect in a casino. Luck is important, so is knowing when to cashout without trying to push your luck by trying to be greedy.

Also with RTG I am sure many players are so fixated upon these RJ's, that they simply push their luck too far in the vain hope they will hit one of these, because they somehow feel they are entitled to win one.

If even a tiny fraction of your thoughts is consumed by thoughts these games are rigged then the only thing to do is walk away and never return.

Players can have access to all the technical data available, all the statistics, and any other information they crave for, but the bottom line is, you will never have an edge over the house. So you will never beat the casino at their own games, hence why gambling is a speculative risk.

Mike

 

[secret2]

For what it's worth...

..let's consider Aztec Treasure Feature Guarentee.

I strongly believe that this game is a calculated game. It will (in my case, I'm a low-roller) give you enough wins just to make it to the 5 free spins, almost down to the wire. Time and time again, this seems to be the pattern with me.

Obviously, it seems that if you deposit a large amount and wager more than 80 cents a spin, it will pay off...but then it also depends on how long you have played with is casino and if you are a new-comer. A new-comer with a large deposit will give the player a better advantage, perhaps...and will win..... perhaps

Maybe random depending on a set time that a particular casino has designated as a 'loose slot' time.
I think it's a mixture of the two, imo.

Btw, does anyone know if there is life after death, for sure?

 

[mattsgame]

Rtp/Rng

This may end up being a bit of a babble but bare with me.

i hope dogboy or someone with some know can answer me this question, because this is what i have believed for some time. With b&m and online casino's.

I know that on all land based slots we have RNG's (online casino's similar) but do they work the same?


From what i know the RNG in land based slots is set to go through a number of cycles . The example i will use is 5,000 spins. So if the RTP is set to 95% the rng has to spit out 4,500 winning combinations and 500 losing combinations then it resets itself to 5,000 and starts over.

so a player may just be playing the slot at the time the rng has decided to spit out a chunk of those 500 loses (which leads people to think it is rigged). (i know i have felt this pain many of times in b&m)


If its the same for online casino's (slots) then the rng would be set to thousands upon thousands of spins. Because we are talking about a much larger scale here (online slots which have millions of spins a day)



This could explain why some of you think its rigged when u jump online and can't hit anything. You may have just played that slot at the time the RNG has decided to throw out a few 100 - 1,000 loses in its cycle..

b&m or online Slots where never designed for you to win so we all take loses bitterly

However i also agree with Online casino's having to show u the RTP. By law in australia all b&m's must show the RTP.. Although its not obviously shown and 90% of people don't check the RTP.

Hopefully soon someone takes a stance and regulates the online industry.


Hmmm yer sorry a bit of a dribble here ..i know what i was trying to say just hope its come across right..lol

Mattsgame.

 

[takethemoney]

So, Mattsgame helps me come up with another question. What if 100 players are playing the same game online and the RNG says it's time for a bonus round. Does everyone hit the bonus round? There's gotta be some of them pushing spin at the same time.

 

[4 of a kind]

When you are playing a slot machine live at a casino, (unless of course your playing some type of mega jackpot type where like 20 machines in each casino are hooked together) it's just you against that one machines software. When playing a machine online, it's you and thousands of others playing and sharing the same machine. This has to make a difference one way or the other how a machine pays out. Be it better or worse for any one player I don't know.

 

[maphesto]

From what i know the RNG in land based slots is set to go through a number of cycles . The example i will use is 5,000 spins. So if the RTP is set to 95% the rng has to spit out 4,500 winning combinations and 500 losing combinations then it resets itself to 5,000 and starts over.

RNG = Random Number Generator

If a game is set to go through a number of cycles it is definately NOT random. Your theory is based on the fact that online slots or B&M (Haven`t seen or used myself) is rigged and NOT random.

If RTP is set to 95% it is by pure mathematics just like land based Roulette where you can see it easy.

18 red, 18 black and 1 green. It`s easy to see that the house edge is 1/37 of total bets.
RTP is in this case 36/37 = 97,3%

Its the same thing with a video slot but it`s more difficult to see because you have 5 reels and several symbols with different pays.

When Realtime Gaming changes RTP they do it by adding or removing symbols of the reels. Many players have noticed that in a special fruit slot which sometimes shows 2 pears(I think it is pears) in a row instead of one.

 

[bb28]

This may end up being a bit of a babble but bare with me.

i hope dogboy or someone with some know can answer me this question, because this is what i have believed for some time. With b&m and online casino's.

I know that on all land based slots we have RNG's (online casino's similar) but do they work the same?


From what i know the RNG in land based slots is set to go through a number of cycles . The example i will use is 5,000 spins. So if the RTP is set to 95% the rng has to spit out 4,500 winning combinations and 500 losing combinations then it resets itself to 5,000 and starts over.

so a player may just be playing the slot at the time the rng has decided to spit out a chunk of those 500 loses (which leads people to think it is rigged). (i know i have felt this pain many of times in b&m)


If its the same for online casino's (slots) then the rng would be set to thousands upon thousands of spins. Because we are talking about a much larger scale here (online slots which have millions of spins a day)



This could explain why some of you think its rigged when u jump online and can't hit anything. You may have just played that slot at the time the RNG has decided to throw out a few 100 - 1,000 loses in its cycle..

b&m or online Slots where never designed for you to win so we all take loses bitterly

However i also agree with Online casino's having to show u the RTP. By law in australia all b&m's must show the RTP.. Although its not obviously shown and 90% of people don't check the RTP.

Hopefully soon someone takes a stance and regulates the online industry.


Hmmm yer sorry a bit of a dribble here ..i know what i was trying to say just hope its come across right..lol

Mattsgame.

The scenario that you are describing is anything but random.

I'm certainly no mathematician, but what you are describing is impossible for something that is considered to be random and if something is truly random there can not be any such thing as cycles. To me random means you could spin a slot 1 million times and you could get a payback of 25% or get a payback of 1000% at any given time or day. Consider it your good fortune if you get a payback of 1000% or consider it a bad day if your payback is 25%.

 

[takethemoney]

The scenario that you are describing is anything but random.

I'm certainly no mathematician, but what you are describing is impossible for something that is considered to be random and if something is truly random there can not be any such thing as cycles. To me random means you could spin a slot 1 million times and you could get a payback of 25% or get a payback of 1000% at any given time or day. Consider it your good fortune if you get a payback of 1000% or consider it a bad day if your payback is 25%.

The voting is not quite as large of a sampling as I was thinking of, but almost 2 out of 3 people believe the software is either not random or not completely random. I should have put a 3rd option in there, in hindsight. What about random to a degree, but within certain parameters?

I'm also beginning to wonder if RTG developes some kind of bug that affects all the casinos installed on your computer. Reason I am asking is that ever since I got my last cashout from Cherry Red in December it doesn't matter what casino I play, there is no meeting WR on any deposit and bonuses, very, very few features are triggered, very few hits over 20x bet and an inordinant number of blank spins and free fall take down modes. We're talking thousands of spins and thousands of dollars played.

A bad session or maybe even a few I can understand...that's just bad luck, but every damn time??? I have 80+ deposits under my belt now that went this way.There is more than luck to this, I'm sure. So bad that I've closed the worst of the worst, most of which used to be my favorites, including the Rushmore group, Clubworld and Titan. I've signed up at Lock, Grand Vegas, Casino3un3, Allstarslots and many others, but same issues. I've gotten so paranoid I can't seem to get myself to deposit unless the bonus is over 100%. Hell, I can't get anywhere on that, how can I get anywhere on less money? It's getting where it's not fun. So, as of today I am uninstalling all RTG casinos from my computer. I like the games on RTG better, but I guess I will play more Rival, which I seem to be having a bit more luck on lately. I wish MGS would come back to the USA. I used to win all the time on them. Why can't we get some IGT slots like other countries have?

I figured out this week that there are 5 casinos out there that are definitely rigged. I was not sure about them, didn't see much info, but for $20 I took a shot.
Mighty Slots
Plenty Jackpot
99 Slot Machines
Real Vegas
Slot Nuts.

They had this deal going where you deposit $20 and get $980 bonus. The playthru is 120x and there is a max cashout of $300. You'd think playing with $1000 you could hit some decent stuff. Unbelieveable, just like nothing I have ever seen. That bad! Apparently RTG doesn't even trust them, since they have none of the network jackpots available, like Aztec's Millions or Jackpot Cleopatra's gold. No doubt in my mind whatsoever that they have dicked with the code on the software. Anyone else want to test it, so you can confirm I'm not crazy. I knew what I was dealing with but curious to prove a point to myself. I would never deposit anything substantial at these places.

 

[maphesto]

They are Rogue but they are not more rigged than any other RTG casino.

They have probably their RTP-setting on the lowest possible.

About the network jackpots, I don`t think the Virtual group have those either.