RTG RTP Conspiracy (tin foil hat zone)

[tat00]

im not understanding of why they are able to have any tools at all for coupon players when it should be all equal odds wheather or not they have coupons.

should it?

 

[PenDragyn21]

This post sums it up. It would be a pointless box to put in what you are seeing.

BESIDES, you cannot see anything until AFTER the play has happened. This box is for setting up coupons. How do you know what your going to see with the coupons? It is not a logical function if you cannot do what the words say... and that is set house edge.

Simple so that you can have an estimate of how much a promotion is going to cost you. It may mean nothing just like historical stock prices or how well a mutual fund has performed over a given time period. Coupons are enticements. You can use them to try and steer players towards a certain game or away from it. If a casino's losing their shirt on a game, exclude it or weight it less. If players are having a bad run on a game, sweeten the deal by making more attractive coupons for it. (How many awesome BJ bonuses do you see vs how many slots only bonuses?)

PD

 

[Nifty29]

Oh for crying out loud. Did anybody actually READ the explanation that Bryan posted?

The "RTG house edge" figure is the house edge that the game is DESIGNED to achieve.

The "DEFAULT house edge" figure is the house edge that the game is ACTUALLY ACHIEVING which could be different for each casino and can be entered as such to assist the operator in creating the optimum terms for a coupon.

THE INPUT VALUES HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE GAMES I.E the expected house edge for blackjack will ALWAYS be the same but the ACTUAL HE will fluctuate.

This is EXACTLY what VWM, myself, and others alluded to earlier - the screenshot itself means NOTHING without an explanation of the functions. However, now that we HAVE such an explanation some members are just completely ignoring it and jumping on the "ahhhh we got 'em now" bandwagon armed with nothing more than a screenshot and the non-existent explanation of the OP who has conveniently disappeared once again.

If people REALLY believe that RTG operators can add extra cards to decks or change reel strips during bonus play, then they must, as a result, believe it is possible on a per-player basis AND be possible on other software platforms as well.....and the funniest part is that many of these people will play at RTG again and have continued to do so, regardless of the fact that they 'know' they're being cheated. Speaks volumes.

Where is this 'RJ personal win' switch? Or did 4 oaks source feel that wasnt worth including? Id have thought that would have been FAR more serious than shaving a few % off the games! The answer is of course that there is no screenshot because it DOESN'T EXIST (although those that insist it does just keep playing regardless...lol just lol)

It seems that we have yet another case of the facts not being allowed to get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

I'm placing a call to BHP Billiton to suggest they increase their aluminium output as we could well be facing a foil shortage here in coming days.

 

[2btakn]

Hi all,

Here we go again with the tin hats.

What 4 of a kind is posting are screenshots of the backend of the coupon codes. This has nothing to do with the RTP with which some of you are mildly confused.

From an RTG operator concerning the screenshot referenced here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rtg-rtp-conspiracy-tin-foil-hat-zone.43528/



Further reference material about RTG's RTP has been repeated and regurgitated more times than you can shake a stick at. For further reading, please read the following threads.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rtg-and-rtp-the-official-word.38348/

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rtg-software-backend-issues-rtp-etc.41825/

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/corrupt-online-gaming.40838/

It seems to me that a small handful of members keep bringing up the same issue instead of referring to the vast amount of reference material at hand. I would really appreciate a little bit of consideration when it comes making me repeat myself.

Further, if you wish to publish what is considered privileged information (like screenshots of someone's back-end), either you get permission to post this or post it on your own website and reference it from here. We have strict rules about this; you can refer to the FAQs and rules about posting privileged information. If we are requested to take it down - we take it down. That'll take the wind out of your sails pretty damn quick.

What is the last part about? Kinda seems like your upset he posted it. Just wondering.

 

[silcnlayc]

Nifty29
Oh for crying out loud. Did anybody actually READ the explanation that Bryan posted?

Back atcha Nifty! Lighten up, Of course we did sheesh, you think we are blind too?? Remember, you might have gotten lost cause you are now in the tin hat area...we got "separated" from the main discussion where I think you want to be. I mean geezes.. You should be in the main room where there is a so called "discussion" you can

Nifty29: I like to challenge peoples opinions and debate the issues.

with those that do not wear these purty hats...go on...move along...if you do not wear our kind of hat...you KNOW you are in the wrong room..I am actually finding this room kinda cozy..so please do not come here ranting all over the place trying to make us see your side of the moon...cause it don't exist to many of us...especially me...


.

 

[greasemonkey]

Oh for crying out loud. Did anybody actually READ the explanation that Bryan posted?

The "RTG house edge" figure is the house edge that the game is DESIGNED to achieve.

The "DEFAULT house edge" figure is the house edge that the game is ACTUALLY ACHIEVING which could be different for each casino and can be entered as such to assist the operator in creating the optimum terms for a coupon.

THE INPUT VALUES HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE GAMES I.E the expected house edge for blackjack will ALWAYS be the same but the ACTUAL HE will fluctuate.

This is EXACTLY what VWM, myself, and others alluded to earlier - the screenshot itself means NOTHING without an explanation of the functions. However, now that we HAVE such an explanation some members are just completely ignoring it and jumping on the "ahhhh we got 'em now" bandwagon armed with nothing more than a screenshot and the non-existent explanation of the OP who has conveniently disappeared once again.

If people REALLY believe that RTG operators can add extra cards to decks or change reel strips during bonus play, then they must, as a result, believe it is possible on a per-player basis AND be possible on other software platforms as well.....and the funniest part is that many of these people will play at RTG again and have continued to do so, regardless of the fact that they 'know' they're being cheated. Speaks volumes.

Where is this 'RJ personal win' switch? Or did 4 oaks source feel that wasnt worth including? Id have thought that would have been FAR more serious than shaving a few % off the games! The answer is of course that there is no screenshot because it DOESN'T EXIST (although those that insist it does just keep playing regardless...lol just lol)

It seems that we have yet another case of the facts not being allowed to get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

I'm placing a call to BHP Billiton to suggest they increase their aluminium output as we could well be facing a foil shortage here in coming days.

You have valid points Nifty, that is not what is being said. I agree that if I take what Bryan said as gospel (as you do) then I would also be taking what he was TOLD as gospel. I still have questions. I don't ever just read what Bryan types and consider it a done deal, no more questions to ask. I have every reason to raise questons based on the screen shot. That doesn't mean Bryan is being called a liar or his integrity questioned. It means as a reasonable, thinking adult there are questions that could be raised. Have you never seen a post where Bryan was given bad info then passed it off here then found out differently later? Perhaps some of the questions being raised will reveal something else. Perhaps not. We are here to discuss ideas. Not suppress everyone of them we dont agree with, although that seems to be your main purpose.

 

[greasemonkey]

Simple so that you can have an estimate of how much a promotion is going to cost you. It may mean nothing just like historical stock prices or how well a mutual fund has performed over a given time period. Coupons are enticements. You can use them to try and steer players towards a certain game or away from it. If a casino's losing their shirt on a game, exclude it or weight it less. If players are having a bad run on a game, sweeten the deal by making more attractive coupons for it. (How many awesome BJ bonuses do you see vs how many slots only bonuses?)

PD

I totally undrstand what you mean, PenDragyn, What I am saying is that doesn't make sense.

Lets take a coin flip. Lets say that I was using this program and for some short term variance there were 72 heads and only 28 tails flipped in the last 100. I surely wouldn't type in the HE being 72% or 28%. That would give me bad info and change my likely outcome of the coupon. We all know it is a 50/50 proposition with 0 HE.

SO, if the goal is to PREDICT what kind of results you will have by setting a coupon then you certainly wouldn't put in past results of a KNOWN quantity. You know darn well what the HE of Red Dog is. Why would you possibly change those while making a coupon? It would create havoc if you were trying to predict the outcome of the offer made.

SO, while I understand the explanation, it doesn't make any logical sense to use it or have it... but I have not operated a casino before either. Still it leaves a big question.

 

[PenDragyn21]

Re-reading the posts, I noticed some of the posters find the presence of table games in the screenshot proves that the last set of boxes if for changing RTP. The more I thought about it though, the presence of the table games actually proves the opposite.
I'll try to be brief and nicer about why I think that than others.
Table game and VP players can know the (theoretical) house edge/rtp of the game before they sit down. It's because of the paytable. The paytable is usually there for all to see. Change the paytable, you change the house edge/rtp without touching the mechanics of the game (aka cheating). For Blackjack you change the number of decks and how the dealer always plays his hands. This is how the B&Ms do it. You don't need some super secret backend to do that. The online casinos can do this too. As I type I'm looking at 4 different paytables for three/tri card poker at 4 different casinos on two different software platforms. Each one of those makes for a different house edge/rtp.
Those boxes can't be for putting in any willy nilly RTP you want. Without a fixed SET of RTPs, the first typo or greedy operator who changes the RTP to 9 instead of 90 would have the players seeing things far more whacky then streaks or bad beats.

I'll stop right there or I'll go on forever about it.

PS The programmer side of me started to get a headache after a few minutes figuring out how I would make the visual display of a card game match any random RTP values input by the coupon creator and not have it look hinky. The lazy programmer side of me says don't change how the game plays just change how much you pay the player when they win that way it's less likely you'll break anything.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

Someone mentioned my name.

This thread is not about Bet Phoenix Casino. The company I represent.

This thread is about Real Time Gaming. A company I have nothing to do with anymore. As such, I'm not in a position to provide a reply for them.

On a personal note, I believe everything Brian said is spot on. I personally have never seen that screen (I had a lowly CS access, since my main function in the end is that of an affiliate manager) However, I do have an excel sheet with formulas that mimics what that page has, and is something I regularly use to check expected promotional loss.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[SlotsLover]

key question

If RTG operators were able to adjust the payouts for different bonuses and different players (i.e., fix the games), then why would any players be bonus barred or barred at all? The operators could just "flip the switch" on the advantage players.

 

[Nifty29]

Someone mentioned my name.

This thread is not about Bet Phoenix Casino. The company I represent.

This thread is about Real Time Gaming. A company I have nothing to do with anymore. As such, I'm not in a position to provide a reply for them.

On a personal note, I believe everything Brian said is spot on. I personally have never seen that screen (I had a lowly CS access, since my main function in the end is that of an affiliate manager) However, I do have an excel sheet with formulas that mimics what that page has, and is something I regularly use to check expected promotional loss.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Thank you for taking the time to further confirm the facts.

It's a shame you are mostly wasting your breath, with you being a part (or former part) of the conspiracy 'n all.......

Don't forget to collect your free foil hat on your way out

 

[Nifty29]

If RTG operators were able to adjust the payouts for different bonuses and different players (i.e., fix the games), then why would any players be bonus barred or barred at all? The operators could just "flip the switch" on the advantage players.

Exactly. Just increase all the house edges by 25% and sit back laughing.

A very sensible and logical argument, however it has been made clear that those kind of things are not welcome in this particular thread.

 

[nisosbar]

its time to think about a mass boycott of every licensee.

LOL, already essentially doing that.

 

[The Dude]

What is the last part about? Kinda seems like your upset he posted it. Just wondering.

I'm rarely ever upset.

What I am explaining is that posting screenshots of someone's back-end, (unless you have explicit permission), violates our forum rules:

1.4 - No posting of privileged information. Please remember to respect other's privacy. In the public forum, do not post real names, email addresses, or other personal identifiers that may be considered privileged information; to include company "trade secrets", screenshots of company information, etc. If these items are already publicly available, this shouldn't be a problem. But if these are from private correspondence, or from some user database, discretion is advised.

I don't think there is a software provider on the planet that would allow screenshots of their back-end to be displayed in public. It's not that they are trying to cover something up; it's about allowing their competitors access to what they consider "privileged information"; their competitors are taking notes. When you post these screenshots, expect them to disappear once we are contacted by the software provider.

Of course, if these screenshots provide evidence of a casino cheating then we'd let them stand - but they don't. Bottom line is if RTG wants them removed - they're gone.

 

[4 of a kind]

Whoever wrote that explanation for you Bryan, and since you obviously approve of it, I would assume it should be expected by all here to bow their heads to you, the Moses of online gaming as you carry yet another stone with the facts of this screen shot carved into it.

This alleged carved in stone explanation may be good enough for your disciples like Nitty, but anyone not blinded by your glowing appearance should realize that explanation makes no sense and would serve no purpose for any casino to utilize what so ever.

“These Values Will Appear For All New Coupons”

What the hell does viewing what the actual RTP is doing in real time and coming back to this page and entering that number into the default house edge box got to do with the price of fish since the coupons are already in the street?

The mathematical advantages or not of a coupon being offered are decided well before their put in the streets. Using Betfair for example it was obvious their mistake was made well before the coupon hit the streets. Since Betfair took a beating with that coupon offer was a sign that they were a site to be trusted for actual random and fair play. Unfortunately, they didn’t take their lumps and elected to steel the money back.

I also understand your livelihood is controlled by online gaming, and this site is your domain.

 

[chayton]

I skimmed through the other threads and I have a couple of thoughts - first, the screenshot didn't come from BetPhoenix in the first place, it originally came from someone who worked for Casino33, right?

So if the original screenshot came from Casino33, how does the OP know that BetPhoenix also had access to this superuser thingie? Did the person from Casino33 go to work for BetPhoenix? Or is it a different mole?

I never really played at either of these casinos, but I remember reading here that BetPhoenix was offering some pretty massive deposit bonuses, did Casino33 do the same? If so then the explanation that casinomeister quoted (from an RTG operator?):

To be honest it is not a tool we have ever used, as it is for the Casinos that offer the more 'creative large' bonus offers

would make total sense wouldn't it? For those casinos that were offering large bonuses and trying to not go broke doing it - it seems like a plausible explanation. Especially when you consider that if Casino33 was able to adjust their RTP to put more money in their pocket, how come they're not still around? And if BetPhoenix was able to fleece their players so well with this system, why would they switch to another software and throw it all away? It doesn't make sense, IMO.

And believe me, I'm no huge fan of RTG or any of the casinos these days. I haven't been able to get anywhere lately, but bottom line is: if I didn't think I was getting a fair game I wouldn't be playing.

 

[4 of a kind]

I skimmed through the other threads and I have a couple of thoughts - first, the screenshot didn't come from BetPhoenix in the first place, it originally came from someone who worked for Casino33, right?


That's just what you were told. This screen shot has nothing whats so ever to do with casino33 or casinojack.



but bottom line is: if I didn't think I was getting a fair game I wouldn't be playing.

I don't.

 

[gerilege]

I don't think there is a software provider on the planet that would allow screenshots of their back-end to be displayed in public.

I strongly and respectfully disagree on this conditional statement in its current, general way.
If your customers do not know your features, you can not sell a product effectively. If your customers know your features, you can expect that your competitors will also find it out soon, they are watching close enough anyway. If your competitors know it, the customers of your customers will also know it soon (assuming there is a real market race and not a syndication). Transparency creates trust. There are some cases where you can not disclose some stuff, but if we are talking about product features in general, if you have nothing to hide, why not show it upfront?

 

[Nifty29]

Whoever wrote that explanation for you Bryan, and since you obviously approve of it, I would assume it should be expected by all here to bow their heads to you, the Moses of online gaming as you carry yet another stone with the facts of this screen shot carved into it.

This alleged carved in stone explanation may be good enough for your disciples like Nitty, but anyone not blinded by your glowing appearance should realize that explanation makes no sense and would serve no purpose for any casino to utilize what so ever.

“These Values Will Appear For All New Coupons”

What the hell does viewing what the actual RTP is doing in real time and coming back to this page and entering that number into the default house edge box got to do with the price of fish since the coupons are already in the street?

The mathematical advantages or not of a coupon being offered are decided well before their put in the streets. Using Betfair for example it was obvious their mistake was made well before the coupon hit the streets. Since Betfair took a beating with that coupon offer was a sign that they were a site to be trusted for actual random and fair play. Unfortunately, they didn’t take their lumps and elected to steel the money back.

I also understand your livelihood is controlled by online gaming, and this site is your domain.

Now that your 'damning evidence' has been shown to be a dud (again), you resort to personal attacks on myself and your host. Nice.

I guess when you don't have any facts, its about all you have left.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go finish my Bryan Shrine before nightly worship begins, and I don't want to steel any more of your limelight.

Regards,

Nitty.

"There is no such thing as a system" Bryan 2:12-14

 

[Gremmyboy]

 

[The Dude]

Whoever wrote that explanation for you Bryan, and since you obviously approve of it, I would assume it should be expected by all here to bow their heads to you, the Moses of online gaming as you carry yet another stone with the facts of this screen shot carved into it.

You've pretty much proven to me that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. You used to make good informative/helpful posts way back when, but now you've become nothing but a troll. It's a shame really.

This alleged carved in stone explanation may be good enough for your disciples like Nitty, but anyone not blinded by your glowing appearance should realize that explanation makes no sense and would serve no purpose for any casino to utilize what so ever...

Ditto.

...
I also understand your livelihood is controlled by online gaming, and this site is your domain.

Ditto. <yawn>

30 day time out for being a troll.

Please come back with a better attitude. Thanks!

 

[baldidiot]

The explanation given for the screen, IMHO, is perfectly logical. Don't forget that just because blackjack is set up to have a house edge of 0.7%, that doesn't mean that this is the house edge that the casino will see.

If your casino is full of donks who are hitting with 20 then your edge will be much higher.

I get the impression that what this system could be used for is to created custom coupons for specific groups of players - eg: you want to offer said donk player a bonus to keep him happy but need to know how "loose" you can be with the bonus terms. Makes perfect sense.

Of course, the old mischievous side of me would like to point out that (if this is all correct) a player could play like a high rolling muppet until they got the right bonus and then clean up

(please note: I'm not in any way suggesting anyone tries it )

 

[The Dude]

As I expected, RTG requested that the screenshot be taken down - and it's now gone.

Again, it had nothing to do with their RTP. This was used by some operators to calculate bonuses. It gives an operator a view of what the risk is depending on the bonus setting.

 

[greasemonkey]

As I expected, RTG requested that the screenshot be taken down - and it's now gone.

Again, it had nothing to do with their RTP. This was used by some operators to calculate bonuses. It gives an operator a view of what the risk is depending on the bonus setting.

I'm not a math wizard I guess and it is frustrating me that I cannot wrap my head around this. Can someone please explain PRECISELY how putting in DIFFERENT HE% could better help you determine the outcome or risk of a bonus offer?

This just makes no sense to me. If players are playing red dog and for some reason the actual house win was only 0.1% over the past on that game it still isn't a predication of FUTURE play or FUTURE HE%. The future estimate can only be made on the games actual HE%. It would create massive havoc to base outcomes on the variance of past play. You can only assume actual HE% and none of the explanations here have made sense to my small brain.

That box that said you could adjust the HE% just makes no sense at all to me. I am just not sure of the explanation.

One more question is why do only some casinos supposedly have this ability or the "super user" option?

 

[sweiger]

As I expected, RTG requested that the screenshot be taken down - and it's now gone.

You know, this request could easily add to *my* tin foil hat.. if the screenshot is as innocent as stated in your post #40, why the fuzz then for making it disappear?

 

[PlexRep]

You know, this request could easily add to *my* tin foil hat.. if the screenshot is as innocent as stated in your post #40, why the fuzz then for making it disappear?

My guess would be it's the same as a jury pool being tainted by the media and the 'facts' they report. If something is unproven but fuels the conspiracy fire then it's more harm than use.

In essence: Hard facts - good. Disputable facts - dangerous.

 

[The Dude]

You know, this request could easily add to *my* tin foil hat.. if the screenshot is as innocent as stated in your post #40, why the fuzz then for making it disappear?

The screenshot was from an older version of the admin, but even so RTG (like any software provider) considers this privileged information that should only be accessed by the ones who are admins/operators.

 

[Glunn11]

I'm not a math wizard I guess and it is frustrating me that I cannot wrap my head around this. Can someone please explain PRECISELY how putting in DIFFERENT HE% could better help you determine the outcome or risk of a bonus offer?

This just makes no sense to me. If players are playing red dog and for some reason the actual house win was only 0.1% over the past on that game it still isn't a predication of FUTURE play or FUTURE HE%. The future estimate can only be made on the games actual HE%. It would create massive havoc to base outcomes on the variance of past play. You can only assume actual HE% and none of the explanations here have made sense to my small brain.

That box that said you could adjust the HE% just makes no sense at all to me. I am just not sure of the explanation.

One more question is why do only some casinos supposedly have this ability or the "super user" option?

The reasons that I think are used here are the following:

• Slot Games: Use the calculator if the RTP is set to a different setting.
• Table Games: Use the calculator to reflect the skills of the players and minor adjustments to deck composition.

For instance, the edge (per unit) of RTG red dog, 2 decks, is 2.61%. This assumes that players call on spreads of 6 or less and raise on 7 or more. However, not all players know optimal strategy, and casinos may be able to use different numbers of decks. Thus RTG's average return on red dog is different than the base edge. An RTG casino would, therefore, consider the skill level of all players who would take the bonus to determine the wagering requirements and the match percentage.

Even with that explanation, the tool still sounds relatively worthless to me, for what it's worth. The use of the term "Default House Edge" in the editable column, I think, is the main cause of the controversy. "Effective," "experimental," or even "actual" would much more accurately reflect the stated purpose of the form.

 

[greasemonkey]

The reasons that I think are used here are the following:

• Slot Games: Use the calculator if the RTP is set to a different setting.
• Table Games: Use the calculator to reflect the skills of the players and minor adjustments to deck composition.

For instance, the edge (per unit) of RTG red dog, 2 decks, is 2.61%. This assumes that players call on spreads of 6 or less and raise on 7 or more. However, not all players know optimal strategy, and casinos may be able to use different numbers of decks. Thus RTG's average return on red dog is different than the base edge. An RTG casino would, therefore, consider the skill level of all players who would take the bonus to determine the wagering requirements and the match percentage.

Even with that explanation, the tool still sounds relatively worthless to me, for what it's worth. The use of the term "Default House Edge" in the editable column, I think, is the main cause of the controversy. "Effective," "experimental," or even "actual" would much more accurately reflect the stated purpose of the form.

I see your point. The hard house edge that is not editable would reflect the number of decks etc. They would be unable to even muster a guess as to what the actual outcome MIGHT be IF the players are sharp or IF they are weak...etc. That would actually cause more problems. That is why so many questions and why so much doubt as to the explanation. The explanation isn't reasonable, especially for professional casino operators.

 

[Nifty29]

I see your point. The hard house edge that is not editable would reflect the number of decks etc. They would be unable to even muster a guess as to what the actual outcome MIGHT be IF the players are sharp or IF they are weak...etc. That would actually cause more problems. That is why so many questions and why so much doubt as to the explanation. The explanation isn't reasonable, especially for professional casino operators.

Which would explain why almost none of the operators use it, no?

The explanation has been provided, and all but a few don't accept it, so it's really just down to personal choice now - anyone who still believes its a ripoff tool like 4oak will surely never spend a dime at RTG again. After all, they would look ridiculous being KNOWINGLY taken for a ride.

Unless someone else has some more 'damning' screenshots, I don't see where else this thread has to go.

 

[greasemonkey]

Which would explain why almost none of the operators use it, no?

The explanation has been provided, and all but a few don't accept it, so it's really just down to personal choice now - anyone who still believes its a ripoff tool like 4oak will surely never spend a dime at RTG again. After all, they would look ridiculous being KNOWINGLY taken for a ride.

Unless someone else has some more 'damning' screenshots, I don't see where else this thread has to go.

Did anyone answer yet why only some casinos had the super user yet?

aside from that question I appreciate you trying to end the thread and stifle questions but please allow the people to ask questions. It's not hurting anything to be curious. Thanks

 

[lots0]

I have to agree with Nifty.
This thread has run it's course.

After all, how many times should you answer the same question....

Instead of asking the same thing over and over again.. why not just re-read the thread over and over.

Some folks are just not going to except the answer that has been given.
Oh well...

 

[DarkMage]

No one is forcing anyone to click on this thread. I find Greasemonkey making some good points about the card games, my thoughts echo his very closely.

 

[Nifty29]

Did anyone answer yet why only some casinos had the super user yet?

aside from that question I appreciate you trying to end the thread and stifle questions but please allow the people to ask questions. It's not hurting anything to be curious. Thanks

Presumably there are different package options and extra services like any other kind of licensing arrangement. Some may simply not have chosen to include that option - although if 4oak and others are right then as a licensee you woulbe crazy not to.....or if it is only available to a select few, then I would think there would be uproar from the other licensees who wouldn't be able to 'set their house edge to whatever they want' as per the conspiracy theory. Just another reason why it isn't what 4oak and others think it is.

I don't decide whether a thread ends or not. I was simply voicing my opinion....its hardly 'stifling' the debate when it is not in my purview to do so.

You cannot expect RTG to answer every one of your questions just because you're 'curious'. They have provided more information than I thought they would, and what they did provide was confirmed by at least one licensee.

How about you contact MG or Rival or Wagerworks and ask them to come to the forum and field questions about their backend management software and what it can and can't do? I won't hold my breath waiting for the thread to start.

Hence what I was alluding to....there won't be any more questions answered by rtg (imo) so any answers will be from others like you and me who don't have any first hand knowledge of RTG operations, which would be just conjecture. I personally dont see how more 'conspiracy theories' or questions thereto will be of any value to the thread.

IMO.

 

[chayton]

If you go back to where Bryan quoted whoever that RTG operator was who said they don't use it, it sounded like it was something that all the casinos actually include, it's just that most don't use it....? That's the way I read it anyhow, I may be wrong.

I didn't have the energy to go through all those other threads to find out who that quote came from, most of them I quit reading when the insults started so maybe I missed something important.

 

[Nate]

That box that said you could adjust the HE% just makes no sense at all to me. I am just not sure of the explanation.

One more question is why do only some casinos supposedly have this ability or the "super user" option?

Contrary to what i've read here (No Disrespect for the explanations provided)... it's actually quite simple.

Headings: Set the Values for excluded games, Playthrough and House Edge %.

The values will appear for all new coupons


Im 100% percent certain that the screen is to change HE%'s for created coupons. There is NOTHING that is indicative that this is NOT the case. Coupons that you type into the Cashier are 'manufactured' here. It determines what Games you may play on the coupon, and what the operator wants the RTP (Minus HE%) to be on their 400% Signup Coupon BIGSLOT400

The instructions are pretty simple and another explaination does not seem plausible to me.

The simple reality of the function is that RTG operators are able to offer coupons and choose games which they want to exclude and change the HE% on those coupons.

The 'Super User' is available to all Casinos. It's laughable that 'some' RTG Operators may only have it.

'This tool simply enables your promo guys to have some idea of the expected win/loss we may experience when they create a coupon'

There is a huge difference between setting something and projecting or estimating something.

Nate

 

[greasemonkey]

Thank you Nate.... and this is why I, for one, keep questioning this. It doesn't sit right with me nor seem correct. The more I think of it the MORE questions come. To just accept that answer and quit talking about it isn't the correct t hing to do.

 

[Nate]

Thank you Nate.... and this is why I, for one, keep questioning this. It doesn't sit right with me nor seem correct. The more I think of it the MORE questions come. To just accept that answer and quit talking about it isn't the correct t hing to do.

Bryan provided an explanation from someone. We either accept it ... or we don't. This does not mean that the discussion cannot continue in a sensible manner

Life teaches you NOT to accept everything at face value. The screen shot that was posted IS privileged information BUT there is nothing on it that a 'Competitor' may gain an advantage on. All Software companies have super geeks doing calculations for them.

If the screen said - 'Populate these areas to determine the Expected HE% on a Coupon' - I would rest my case.

The screen shot is clear (and can be NO MORE Explicit) that it is an area to SET excluded games, play through and HE% for new coupons. The RTG values are merely an indicator of what the recommended or default settings of the software provider are.

Nate.

 

[chayton]

sorry, I'm a dope - what does HE% mean?

 

[Nifty29]

AFAIK that 'someone' was Bryan's contact at RTG.

It was also confirmed by an ex-RTG operator (who surely has no reason to do RTG any favors)

So the choices are:

1. RTG and Nicolas are blatantly lying.

2. As per above, and Bryan knows and is 'in on it'

3. As per #1, and Bryan is being hoodwinked/played for a fool.

4. RTG and Nicolas are telling the truth.

If I have missed any other option please feel free to add.

I understand the motto of the conspiracy theorist is 'if it cant be disproven it must be true', so I see where some of you were coming from.

However, it seems the explanation provided is good enough for all but a few so I guess its just a case of everyone else being stupid and blindly following the flock

 

[greasemonkey]

sorry, I'm a dope - what does HE% mean?

House Edge Percentage

 

[greasemonkey]

AFAIK that 'someone' was Bryan's contact at RTG.

It was also confirmed by an ex-RTG operator (who surely has no reason to do RTG any favors)

So the choices are:

1. RTG and Nicolas are blatantly lying.

2. As per above, and Bryan knows and is 'in on it'

3. As per #1, and Bryan is being hoodwinked/played for a fool.

4. RTG and Nicolas are telling the truth.

If I have missed any other option please feel free to add.

I understand the motto of the conspiracy theorist is 'if it cant be disproven it must be true', so I see where some of you were coming from.

However, it seems the explanation provided is good enough for all but a few so I guess its just a case of everyone else being stupid and blindly following the flock

I'm glad you weren't around when Columbus was trying to argue that the world was round and not flat. II'll take #3 for a dollar.

Why do you keep saying "most of us think this way so others must be wrong"? I wouldn't give a flying flip if all of you thought 2+2 was 5. I still want to question it because it doesn't make sense. And when did you take a census to figure out how the majority felt? I am pretty sure many don't know what to make of it yet. That is why we DONT WANT TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU BEG US TO. If you don't like the conversation quit clicking on this thread and leave us to our conversation then.
Nifty, it is just unproductive for you to keep interrupting the conversation with motions to stop talking about it. OBVIOUSLY many of us are still not satisfied with the nonsensical answer and would like to continue discussing it. Thanks.

 

[Nifty29]

I'm glad you weren't around when Columbus was trying to argue that the world was round and not flat. II'll take #3 for a dollar.

Why do you keep saying "most of us think this way so others must be wrong"? I wouldn't give a flying flip if all of you thought 2+2 was 5. I still want to question it because it doesn't make sense. And when did you take a census to figure out how the majority felt? I am pretty sure many don't know what to make of it yet. That is why we DONT WANT TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU BEG US TO. If you don't like the conversation quit clicking on this thread and leave us to our conversation then.
Nifty, it is just unproductive for you to keep interrupting the conversation with motions to stop talking about it. OBVIOUSLY many of us are still not satisfied with the nonsensical answer and would like to continue discussing it. Thanks.

LOL.

I've already said it isn't up to me whether the thread closes or not.

All I'm saying is that you can discuss it all you like, but nobody from RTG or anyone else is going to come forward and say "dang, you got us!" because...well...YOU DIDN'T.

I'm sure Bryan will be happy to know that you think he is a fool

It really comes down to who you believe, and I'll put my faith in someone like Bryan (who has probably forgotten more than you know about online gambling) every day and twice on Sundays over a couple of members who find a conspiracy theory when more than two people in a room don't eat their crusts.

If you believe that RTG has this function to 'cheat' players, then you would have to believe that they all have it......so the next penny you spend at any online casino reduces your credibility to zero, unless of course we are to believe that you are a fool and you knowingly allow blatant cheats to rip you off.

I would be far more likely to give credit to someone who posted their 'casinos cheat' theory and then proceeded to never play at an online casino again - at least they would have the courage of their convictions, and not just be constantly trying to come up with reasons to blame someone other than themselves for the fact that they lose.

Anyhoo.....discuss away! (...and I'll chime in whenever I damn well feel like it )

 

[PenDragyn21]

Did anyone answer yet why only some casinos had the super user yet?

aside from that question I appreciate you trying to end the thread and stifle questions but please allow the people to ask questions. It's not hurting anything to be curious. Thanks

VinylWeatherMan answered about "super user" in post #22 of this thread but here's quote:

"Super User" itself does not mean all that much, it is a bit like "administrator" in Windows, an account with higher levels of access than others, and something to be expected in any back end application where lowly front line CS have access to less functionality than management, marketing, and security.

AFAIK, "super user" is a term from unix. A "super user" has permissions that normal users don't have so that they can keep the system running. It's like the difference between being simple poster on this forum like you and me or being one of the moderators.

Maybe it costs more. It could be a different type of licensing.
PD

 

[daveboz]

Glad to see others are on to the RTG maniulation

I was chastized last week for my comments on BoDog and Intertops. Now what is this about RTG and PAYOUT TWEAKING?

Bodog not out of the woods yet although RTP has always been fair, good streaks are hit. It's the free fall that is suspicious. I have been utilizing better bankroll management but still something is off at that site. If you hit a streak at Bodog stop playing after 3-4 straight losing hands. Still a good place if you can walk away and come back at a later time.

Intertops? Don't even think about playing there in my opinion.

How long before Rainmaker responds?

 

[EbeeDog]

Oh geez.

Please produce some evidence, apart from 'someone told me'.

I assume this Super User access allows personal RTP adjustments and the ability to award RJs to selected players , extra cards in blackjack decks, <insert favorite conspiracy theory here>

Its becoming tiresome how you walk into RTG threads, drop a giant 'bombshell', and then walk away without answering any tough questions about it.

I'm not saying you're lying, its just hard to take the word of someone who has always enjoyed the 'ban me if you like' attention-grabbing spotlight and more than a few bogus conspiracy theories.

Hmmmm.....

And I don't think young rainmaker is going to be baited that easily.

nifty maybe , but of course.......

VinylWeatherMan answered about "super user" in post #22 of this thread but here's quote:


AFAIK, "super user" is a term from unix. A "super user" has permissions that normal users don't have so that they can keep the system running. It's like the difference between being simple poster on this forum like you and me or being one of the moderators.

Maybe it costs more. It could be a different type of licensing.
PD

I repeat: Oh fuckin please....

 

[3mptyseat]

U need only play 50 hands of BJ

On any rtg to see that its a less than random system... Or if its random, the card values used are random in value, but when it comes to display, they come up as a paired face more often than is mathematically possible... I am serious... Play 20 hands on play money... QQ, KK, JJ, see any of those?? Either u or the dealer will have them, and often, when u have one of them, the dealer will have one too...

We already know that RTG has loose ethical boundaries. We know this bc of the Fruit Frenzy issue... We know this because many of us can "feel" the difference between the way it was and the way it is... And I dont know about u guys, but I either win-win-win or its gone betting small real quick... And lastly, we know they toe the line between business people and accessories to criminal groups bc of the licenses that they continue to renew... They have very little opinion of their target market, bc their research has deduced that even after myriad examples of deception and in the case of licensee's, fraud, there is still a hungry customer base even in this over saturated marketplace, that will be there with some cash to burn and expectations as high as their impulse control ability is low...

So that being said... I will agree with nifty on one specific point (or sentence really):

We are not going to be receiving an admission of anything interesting from RTG...

And I agree with the RTG Conspiracy Theorists as well, just because we get the answer we can't accept, we shouldn't stop the debate; already in the course of this thread things have popped out at me that make this more interesting than I originally thought it would be... And I have to admit, while I lean one way atm on this subject, I am not 100% convinced of anything, save for the inevitability of my taxes, my baldness, and my mortality...

That being said, accepting the answer given as 'their answer' is a horse of a different color from accepting "their answer as THE answer"...

So consider this: Given what we know of greed, how could anyone assume that mostof these sites/platforms are not rigged in some deceptive, unfair, or outright cheating way to increase HA%? You know how many people I talk to who are weekly depositors at a place and when I ask them, "So I hear their cashouts are slow?", a typical response from the more candid of players is, "I wouldn't know one way or the other but I love their...".

At the end of the day, except for the horribly addicted, its amusement... So lets not judge people because they make deposits at places whilst likewise believing the place to be less than fair... That doesn't make them an idiot, that makes them a gambler... GL to YOU fair gamblers!

 

[Nifty29]

At the end of the day, except for the horribly addicted, its amusement... So lets not judge people because they make deposits at places whilst likewise believing the place to be less than fair... That doesn't make them an idiot, that makes them a gambler... GL to YOU fair gamblers

I don't agree.

If anyone plays online casinos believing they are cheating and lying, they may not be an idiot.....but it certainly doesn't add much weight to their opinion, as they obviously don't really believe it.

How ridiculous does this statement sound:

"Online casinos cheat and I've even seen 'proof', and I believe they have been doing so for a long time. Now, if you'll excuse me I'm off to play at one right now."

Well this is exactly how it looks when members post passionately about how badly they are being ripped off etc, only to post the next day about how they played at XX casino.

I can tell you now - if I really believed all these theories were true i.e. all casinos cheat as SOP, then I would stop playing...as anyone else who really believed all this stuff would also do.

Yes, it makes them a gambler. An ignorant and careless one. After all, it's hard enough to win when everything is completely above board, let alone playing games that you know are cheating. Sorry, but that really is stupid.

 

[3mptyseat]

I changed the terms of the orig. idea

So lets not judge people because they make deposits at places whilst likewise believing the place to be less than fair

I dont use the word cheat and I am not interested in an argument... Lets agree to this: RTP is not dictated by a governing body ATM in the majority of the online community... So if an operator who has the ability to lower RTP and does so, eventually we would have to come to the conclusion that somewhere along the line the system became "less than fair" but its pretty effing subjective...

U don't know what the exact RTP is overall at a place at any given time... The payouts inetbet publishes have been on a slope downward for each of the past however many years... I am positive its that way elsewhere... So what I meant to say is, knowing that percentages of player return have been diminished, and thinking that its not cool, but having few options and playing anyway is not A) The same as what u are claiming is so "stupid" (@nifty) and B) That easy to distinguish the point of no return between fair and unfair, bc after all, some win even at 50% lower RTP% than is standard...

I can tell you now - if I really believed all these theories were true i.e. all casinos cheat as SOP, then I would stop playing...as anyone else who really believed all this stuff would also do.

I disagree... What about the winner at one of these places that cheats? I know people who have won thousands playing bj at AP/UB... I also know they have cheated in keno, they have re-written the betsoft orig. program code on their video slots, and then the superuser biggie, but I have a ridiculously high ROI there and before yesterday, play there often and cashout just as often...(OBVI not in the casino though, lol) SO I think that there are exceptions to every rule, and I think in the case of casinos, esp online ones where some win while most lose, knowing something to be one way, and being personally affected by it can be two very different things...

 

[Nate]

My posts are far cry from claiming that RTG is 'cheating'. I'm merely trying to point out that what they say the screen does, does not actually gel up with the instructions on the screen.

Adjusting RTP on any Slot is perfectly legal even in B&M Casinos. This isn't a conspiracy theory, its a logical discussion. Im trying to understand why the screen says SET the values for Excluded Games, Playthrough and HE%... It further says that the value will appear for all new coupons....

I'm being told that it has nothing to do with changing HE% and is merely something that gives them an 'idea' of the expected win/loss.

This is kinda like saying the 'Shut Down' button on Windows XP is not a shut down button, but gives you an idea of what website internet explorer will redirect to if you click it.

Uhhmmm - Am I stupid or a conspiracy theorist for reading something that is straight forward?

Lol...

Nate