Redtiger - Predetermined free spins as well as picker bonus

[dArkjON]

Hey Guys,
today i tried the new Redtiger Release "Fa Fa Babies" and I noticed some strange data...

The Game have Freespins you can hit with 3 Scatters both as a gold collection pot.
Scatters trigger 8 free spins, the pot of gold place at 138 coins and triggers a picker game.

There are 4 different Fortune Pots big, super, mega and divine. For every envelope you get, the value of a pot increases.
The goal is to collect 138 coins to bust the pot and start a Picker Game to click one of the 4 different Fortune Pot.

Since you can not see well on the pot, how many coins you have exactly or still need I looked at the data traffic a little closer.
And there you get a direct number displayed per spin :




So I left the console open, and continued to collect coins since my goal was 139 to burst the pot.
When I got to the first freespins, I looked at the display again and was surprised that even before I clicked on the start button,
I could read in the console what I will win in the freespins.



The console tells me that I will win 1.98 and my account balance will be 14.42$.



And as you can see, that's exactly how it turned out.
I just thought, actually it is always said that each spin is random but the bonus is probably predetermined as a whole.


So I kept collecting my coins to blow up the pot. When it finally opened, I still had the console open and couldn't believe my eyes.



As you can see in the Console on the left image, the Picker Bonus is also predetermined. No matter what I click the game has already made the decision.
1 = big, 2 = super, 3 = big and 4 = big... no matter which fields I press

After looking at the data, I wonder why show the player a pick game where it doesn't matter what he clicks anyway ? With free decision this has nothing to do, you could play the open also automatically that the customer does not even think he could influence his luck.

My question in the round, is such a thing legally ok ? Actually, you are fooling the customer instead of giving him a decision as announced ??.

 

[paul7388]

Hey Guys,
today i tried the new Redtiger Release "Fa Fa Babies" and I noticed some strange data...

The Game have Freespins you can hit with 3 Scatters both as a gold collection pot.
Scatters trigger 8 free spins, the pot of gold place at 138 coins and triggers a picker game.

There are 4 different Fortune Pots big, super, mega and divine. For every envelope you get, the value of a pot increases.
The goal is to collect 138 coins to bust the pot and start a Picker Game to click one of the 4 different Fortune Pot.

Since you can not see well on the pot, how many coins you have exactly or still need I looked at the data traffic a little closer.
And there you get a direct number displayed per spin :




So I left the console open, and continued to collect coins since my goal was 139 to burst the pot.
When I got to the first freespins, I looked at the display again and was surprised that even before I clicked on the start button,
I could read in the console what I will win in the freespins.



The console tells me that I will win 1.98 and my account balance will be 14.42$.



And as you can see, that's exactly how it turned out.
I just thought, actually it is always said that each spin is random but the bonus is probably predetermined as a whole.


So I kept collecting my coins to blow up the pot. When it finally opened, I still had the console open and couldn't believe my eyes.



As you can see in the Console on the left image, the Picker Bonus is also predetermined. No matter what I click the game has already made the decision.
1 = big, 2 = super, 3 = big and 4 = big... no matter which fields I press

After looking at the data, I wonder why show the player a pick game where it doesn't matter what he clicks anyway ? With free decision this has nothing to do, you could play the open also automatically that the customer does not even think he could influence his luck.

My question in the round, is such a thing legally ok ? Actually, you are fooling the customer instead of giving him a decision as announced ??.

All Red Tiger bonus rounds are predetermined always have been.

 

[shadow123]

Everything on Red Tiger is preditermined, even the most extended features.
If you are playing in the UK, the casino should be displaying a running loss/profit counter, keep your eye on that, with many providers
not just TIger, the feature or pick result is shown just after or even before starting the feature.

Sorry just seen that the game is not in English

 

[dArkjON]

With free spins it was clear to me that there is a predetermination, but my assumption was that a picker bonus is also determined by the picks and not in front.

 

[deleted20230517]

Yeah i mean what if the picking was truely random.. like how many times i got a pre-determined output on release the kraken bonus.

Live with it or dont play.

 

[Lemon]

The game logic decides the result of the bonus and then delivers it to the player in the same way it was determined. If you didn't have the console open you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. If it wasn't like this then game restore would be a nightmare as you'd have to set many restore points throughout the feature in case you reloaded part-way through. Any game that has a bonus that replays from the start of the game round if you exit and go back in has to work like this, otherwise you would be able to play through part of the bonus and reload the game and start again from scratch if it wasn't looking very good.
Some free game bonus rounds on older slots in the past didn't necessarily do this. The difference was that if you reloaded the game it would finish the bonus automatically in the background and just put the winnings into your account, without you being able to see the rest of the feature with your own eyes.

There's nothing illegal about any of this; the server gets the game result via the logic and then displays it client-side, hopefully in a way that is enjoyable to the player. It's the least problematic way of doing it. If you want to enjoy the feature as intended, don't have the console open as it can ruin the surprise on a lot of games...

 

[dArkjON]

Yeah i mean what if the picking was truely random.. like how many times i got a pre-determined output on release the kraken bonus.

Live with it or dont play.

I have avoided Redtiger for a long time and will again for sure

There's nothing illegal about any of this; the server gets the game result via the logic and then displays it client-side, hopefully in a way that is enjoyable to the player. It's the least problematic way of doing it. If you want to enjoy the feature as intended, don't have the console open as it can ruin the surprise on a lot of games...

I don't have a problem with hitting a predetermined bonus, but I do have a problem with being shown a choice that I don't actually have.
Surely I wouldn't have this info without the console, but I still feel screwed as a customer when I have to choose something that's pointless anyway.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I have avoided Redtiger for a long time and will again for sure

I don't have a problem with hitting a predetermined bonus, but I do have a problem with being shown a choice that I don't actually have.
Surely I wouldn't have this info without the console, but I still feel screwed as a customer when I have to choose something that's pointless anyway.

There's no mathematical difference between the picks being pre-determined and you simply revealing them, and you actually making the picks yourself, as long as the pre-determined picks are fair and random.

From the screenshot you posted above it looks there are 16 possible selections? So that is 16 unknown values, your picks aren't any different to the software picking for you and then just showing you what it picked, as both are done without any knowledge of what the picks will reveal.

One of my favourite slots over at 3Dice is a game called Enchanted Spins, its bonus round is entirely picks based, and is pre-determined server side as soon as the feature is triggered, I know that all I am doing is revealing the results, but I'm fine with that, because my picks would not be any 'better or worse' than what the server randomly picked for me.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

In fact here's the post Enzo made many years ago, explaining why it doesn't matter, this is a guy who actually codes games

If you follow his logic through, you'll understand why there's nothing wrong with picks rounds being pre-determined.

Has a change of thinking taken the fun away? - Page 2 - Casinomeister Forum

 

[Jono777]

All Red Tiger bonus rounds are predetermined always have been.

All fixed mate

 

[dArkjON]

There's no mathematical difference between the picks being pre-determined and you simply revealing them, and you actually making the picks yourself, as long as the pre-determined picks are fair and random.

From the screenshot you posted above it looks there are 16 possible selections? So that is 16 unknown values, your picks aren't any different to the software picking for you and then just showing you what it picked, as both are done without any knowledge of what the picks will reveal.

One of my favourite slots over at 3Dice is a game called Enchanted Spins, its bonus round is entirely picks based, and is pre-determined server side as soon as the feature is triggered, I know that all I am doing is revealing the results, but I'm fine with that, because my picks would not be any 'better or worse' than what the server randomly picked for me.

But it's a different feeling for me whether I have a direct influence on a selection or whether it's already made in advance. For example, if you play with a friend and ask him for a selection... is at the end no matter whether you press field 1 or 6 the result is already taken.

I wonder why not just randomly 3 coins are opened but even in the instructions the player sugeriet is that it is his free decision.

FORTUNE BONUS​

When triggered the player can pick from 16 possible coins. Picking a coin will reveal the back of the coin which will have one of the four FORTUNE PRIZE colours. Picking three coins of the same colour will award the corresponding FORTUNE PRIZE. Each time the Bonus is triggered all coins will be randomly positioned.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But it's a different feeling for me whether I have a direct influence on a selection or whether it's already made in advance. For example, if you play with a friend and ask him for a selection... is at the end no matter whether you press field 1 or 6 the result is already taken.

I wonder why not just randomly 3 coins are opened but even in the instructions the player sugeriet is that it is his free decision.

How you feel about it is a different matter, the point I'm making (and if you read the post I linked to above, it explains it very well with flawless logic) is that it really makes no practical or mathematical difference whatsoever, and you aren't any worse off as a player if the picks are fairly and randomly pre-determined.

(And there are all kinds of game related reasons, as Lemon mentioned above and Enzo explains in his post too, that make it better all round for the picks to be pre-determined.)

 

[dArkjON]

How you feel about it is a different matter, the point I'm making (and if you read the post I linked to above, it explains it very well with flawless logic) is that it really makes no practical or mathematical difference whatsoever, and you aren't any worse off as a player if the picks are fairly and randomly pre-determined.

(And there are all kinds of game related reasons, as Lemon mentioned above and Enzo explains in his post too, that make it better all round for the picks to be pre-determined.)

The difference I feel that besides the 139 coins to hit the bonus, then I also have to hit the special bonus that is in the preselection a "DivineFortune" win... is for me like when I need 5 scatters in a game instead of 3 for a "Super Bonus"...

The post explained it to me technically, but I still wonder why this isn't just played automatically and thus the user isn't presented with a choice.

Just like the instructions of the game, that tell me that I as a player can choose from 16 coins... I am not concerned with the better or worse selection. It's about a free choice above no choice.

A fair statement would have been: Through our algorithm would be determined in advance the selection and is presented to you (and not your choice).

 

[dunover]

The difference I feel that besides the 139 coins to hit the bonus, then I also have to hit the special bonus that is in the preselection a "DivineFortune" win... is for me like when I need 5 scatters in a game instead of 3 for a "Super Bonus"...

The post explained it to me technically, but I still wonder why this isn't just played automatically and thus the user isn't presented with a choice.

Just like the instructions of the game, that tell me that I as a player can choose from 16 coins... I am not concerned with the better or worse selection. It's about a free choice above no choice.

A fair statement would have been: Through our algorithm would be determined in advance the selection and is presented to you (and not your choice).

Look, the result is random and all you've done is access the final outcome figure before the animations and sequence has ended. Like taking a little peek at your Christmas presents a day early. So you're disappointed before you need to be.

 

[Kroffe]

Look, the result is random and all you've done is access the final outcome figure before the animations and sequence has ended. Like taking a little peek at your Christmas presents a day early. So you're disappointed before you need to be.

Speak for yourself.
5 scatter trigger, only opened two so far but its looking good.

 

[dArkjON]

Look, the result is random and all you've done is access the final outcome figure before the animations and sequence has ended. Like taking a little peek at your Christmas presents a day early. So you're disappointed before you need to be.

I feel it more as a promise that I should choose from 4 different gifts on Christmas Eve, I am told that they are all different
but I see how you wrap 4 times the same gift...

 

[Siohmy]

Whilst it doesn’t make any difference I do take issue with how picks are often presented to players.
One example of poor form is Inspired and their Big Win style slots. In come 3 or more bonus symbol and you pick a value of win in free spins which end the feature. Anything from 20x to 100x for three scatters.
Now the fact you almost always pick 20-25x isn’t the issue for me, it’s the fact it shows that stuff like 50-100x was in one of the other symbols “if you had only just picked one of them”.
Irrespective of if you know, after some play I might add, that it is pre-determined, the manufacturer is going out of its way to pretend it’s not.
If it is not pre-determined then the chances of picking the higher values is clearly not 1 in 3.
I’m sure in vegas that if a pick game is predetermined, the slot is not allowed to show that anything else was in the other picks. It’s basically lying BS if it does.

 

[09237653]

Whats the deal with so many red tiger games having features locked and needing unlocking *once* to then have it forever, example: pirates plenty megaways on a fresh slot you dont get the top reel right away limiting the game to 117k ways, once you collect the treasure maps (which takes a few hundred spins) the top reel and all 200k ways and the expanding wilds are then available.

I mean most slot providers chuck in all the reels for free why do red tiger have to charge me for it?

 

[pinnit2014]

Is it not as simple as:

Win 10x - Pre-determined, BAAAADDD

Win 10000x - oh, i quite like it being like that.

Anyone who thinks slots aren't pre-determned? - i envy your naivity

 

[Siohmy]

Is it not as simple as:

Win 10x - Pre-determined, BAAAADDD

Win 10000x - oh, i quite like it being like that.

Anyone who thinks slots aren't pre-determned? - i envy your naivity

Because many are not?
They may tweak the reels to make big feature wins less likely but they do not all pre-determine a result.

 

[Lemon]

Whilst it doesn’t make any difference I do take issue with how picks are often presented to players.
One example of poor form is Inspired and their Big Win style slots. In come 3 or more bonus symbol and you pick a value of win in free spins which end the feature. Anything from 20x to 100x for three scatters.
Now the fact you almost always pick 20-25x isn’t the issue for me, it’s the fact it shows that stuff like 50-100x was in one of the other symbols “if you had only just picked one of them”.
Irrespective of if you know, after some play I might add, that it is pre-determined, the manufacturer is going out of its way to pretend it’s not.
If it is not pre-determined then the chances of picking the higher values is clearly not 1 in 3.
I’m sure in vegas that if a pick game is predetermined, the slot is not allowed to show that anything else was in the other picks. It’s basically lying BS if it does.

Yeah this pisses me off and shouldn't be allowed. In fact I don't think it is allowed unless there is a statement somewhere in the help pages. Have you checked to see if there is anything? I think Big Spin Bonus mentions it, something to do with the number of bonus symbols in view not necessarily reflecting the true chance? Personally I don't think you should be able to reveal the other outcomes at all unless the player had a genuine chance of selecting them, and the same chance as the one that they picked. If you have a pick from 5 symbols and the outcomes are weighted underneath and not 1 in 5 you should be allowed to reveal them. Maybe the UKGC should have stopped this sort of thing instead of stopping players from autoplaying 100 spins at £0.10, yet they can still play one spin at £10? The fucking miserable c*nts...

 

[casguy2016]

i thought all bonuses were pre-determined from the start for all providers? Meaning it really doesn't matter which items you click on and in which order if you have a bonus so i tend to just pick left to right and down to make it simple

 

[dionysus]

i thought all bonuses were pre-determined from the start for all providers? Meaning it really doesn't matter which items you click on and in which order if you have a bonus so i tend to just pick left to right and down to make it simple

I believe they all are for online; if recollection serves there's certain caveats for B@Ms
@Halvor or @trancemonkey would best know - I'm sure it's also answered in one of the Ask Me Anything threads.

 

[4048]

I have a screenshot at home where I'm playing a RT game fruit staxx or something, and my balance in-game shows around €100, 3/14 freespins played and maybe €30 win, and my account balance in the top-left corner of my screen shows a balance of €1500+. the game retriggered twice and I had to sit through and watch 30 or so FS all while knowing the result.

 

[deleted20230517]

I have a screenshot at home where I'm playing a RT game fruit staxx or something, and my balance in-game shows around €100, 3/14 freespins played and maybe €30 win, and my account balance in the top-left corner of my screen shows a balance of €1500+. the game retriggered twice and I had to sit through and watch 30 or so FS all while knowing the result.

Yes, some casino's have this "bug". Some require you to play the full game or round in order for the balance to be updated.

But at the backend, the outcome is already pre-determined really. Your just watching the show, and that is hopefully why you play as well, for a bit of entertainment.

This is just part of security and such, that results are'nt produced on your end but on the server end.