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Omni Casino tricks

Stanford said:
"Regardless of whether you thought they were right or wrong, the fact is that their intention was not to defraud the player."

Yes, but we didn't know this. Reneging on a bonus is the same as reneging on a bet. Serious as a heart attack.

"And Megan's intentions were simply to capture the bonus. She had pointedly remarked that she would stop play as soon as she reached the WR. No judgement on my part - statement of fact."

The only time I saw how much she wagered was when she said she was over $2900 on a $2500 requirement.
Stanford

In Megan's initial post, she indicated that in September, she won a net $130, $100 of which included the bonus. In October, she won a net $80 (inclusive of the bonus). She wagered the $2900 in November. I inferred - perhaps incorrectly - that in the two previous months she stopped wagering as soon as she earned the bonus.

As for "reneging" on the bonus, Omni included the usual disclaimer regarding bonus abusers. If it classified her as such, then it was simply doing so based upon its internal processes. For someone to claim that Omni was seeking to "cheat" Megan outright is nonsensical, given the amount of business Peak Entertainment does.

Stanford said:
"However...if you operated a casino, and assuming Megan's situation many times over, wouldn't you be tempted to pull all bonuses, or simply make the terms more onerous? This isn't without precedent - there are many groups out there who have either eliminated bonuses entirely, disqualified blackjack as part of the WR, or use sticky bonuses. The business is all about cash flow, and if more money is flowing out from a program than in, what incentive is there to still provide it?"

Why are you concerned about that. There are plenty of players that play full tilt. It doesn't take much salting to get them going. They will get a mix of those that play close to the WRs and those that play way over the WRs and points in between.
Stanford

So...applying your logic, why would Omni choose to "cheat" a player who plays as close to the vest as Megan does? And I daresay that players who continually play close to the WR (as Megan apparently has) may suffer the same treatment from Omni. If you consider how many casinos now use sticky bonuses or exclude BJ wagering for WR purposes, then my concern that Omni might think itself better served withOUT this particular bonus isn't too farfetched.

Stanford said:
"Wouldn't it be ironic if Omni chooses to pull its bonus program entirely, partly because it had to pay bonus "users" such as Megan? We players may have won this battle, but whither goest the war?"

Look, online gaming is fraught with reneging for all kinds of reasons. That's just no way to do business. We can minimize this by having standards and insisting on them. Even eCOGRA wouldn't tolerate a situation like this.

It would be silly if Omni pulled its bonus program. Do you think MGM will stop offering free drinks if you played one hand, got your free drink and left?
Stanford

Why would it be "silly"? There are a number of casinos that offer far less lucrative bonus structures, or have reduced theirs significantly.

From a business standpoint, it wouldn't be silly at all. It's merely a risk-benefit scenario. MGM would have no problem offering a drink that costs them perhaps a $1.00 wholesale, knowing that in aggregate they will earn it back quite easily. Having one drunk player betting black can likely cover their alcohol costs for an entire night... :)

With a $100 bonus, the earnback scenario changes. If they have enough repeat customers within a given month, business rationale would indicate that the bonus isn't the primary draw, and why would a casino willingly give $100 if it did not need to?

Nor is that scenario farfetched, even within the Peak Entertainment Group. In that particular family, only two offers any sort of bonus, while the other two offers an "insurance" variant.
 
Quote: "Reneging on a bonus is the same as reneging on a bet. Serious as a heart attack." Well said Stanford. I can't imagine for even a minute how in the world the management of OMNI can in anyway attempt to legitimize or even rationalize their conduct in this regard. To literally trip over dollar bills in an effort to pick up pennies is absolutely laughable and tells you one hell of a lot about this management group.
 
dickens1298 said:
"As for "reneging" on the bonus, Omni included the usual disclaimer regarding bonus abusers. If it classified her as such, then it was simply doing so based upon its internal processes. For someone to claim that Omni was seeking to "cheat" Megan outright is nonsensical, given the amount of business Peak Entertainment does."

It isn't nonsensical. It is perfectly sensible. Gaming Club also was well known and respected when it reneged on its bonus. Do you remember the outrage by the player community and the various watchdogs?

Such terms that allow some arbitrary classification for something called "bonus abusers" have always been uneforceable. You can't invite players to a promotion - then remove their promotions or their winnings or their deposit or any combination of same by simply labeling them.

"If you consider how many casinos now use sticky bonuses or exclude BJ wagering for WR purposes, then my concern that Omni might think itself better served withOUT this particular bonus isn't too farfetched."

I think it perfectly reasonable that they might increase the bonus, decrease the bonus, remove the bonus, or add someother promotion. That isn't of any concern.

"From a business standpoint, it wouldn't be silly at all. It's merely a risk-benefit scenario. MGM would have no problem offering a drink that costs them perhaps a $1.00 wholesale, knowing that in aggregate they will earn it back quite easily. Having one drunk player betting black can likely cover their alcohol costs for an entire night... :)"

Exactly right. It would be silly to base a decision on Megen. It is small change. By the way, factor in the cost of labor and the overhead and that drink cost more than a dollar.

"With a $100 bonus, the earnback scenario changes. If they have enough repeat customers within a given month, business rationale would indicate that the bonus isn't the primary draw, and why would a casino willingly give $100 if it did not need to?

Nor is that scenario farfetched, even within the Peak Entertainment Group. In that particular family, only two offers any sort of bonus, while the other two offers an "insurance" variant."

That is up to them to decide. An online casion only has a limited number of options to attract players. How they do it is up to them. Any promotion is simply a cost of the business. It would be like worrying about the enormous cost of building a new casino. Yes, it cost a bundle to build the Bellegio. They do that to attract players.

Omni doesn't have those cost. It does still have to attract players. That they have a cost intrinsic to their business is no reason not to require high standards.

This isn't difficult. Casinos have to be fair with their players. All of them. Every time. The player community needs to demand it. When Congress again brings up banning Onlines, the casinos will do just what they did last time and ask the player community to rally to their cause. Those that rally are the long time players who they hate. The compulsives burn out and go away eventually. Those of us that play in a controlled manner and then get called bonus abusers are the ones that write the letters and make the phone calls.

The only real bonus abusers are those casinos who attract players with a bonus and then change the terms. This bait and switch tactic is highly unethical. And sadly some of the best casinos still do it.

Omni says this is just an error. So be it. I applaud them taking care of this situation. And I applaud Sirius who brought it to their attention. I also applaud you Dickens for a thoughtful exchange.

Stanford.
 
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As you may have guessed, I'm on the road again - but I'm in Barcelona at the EIG. I spied one of the operators form across the room earlier today, but I didn't have a chance to go shoot the shit. This is the first time I've read this post (my Internet connectivity ain't the best), but I'll be heading back over to the conference center this evening and hopefully I'll run into him and find out what the scoop is.
 
Stanford said:
Gaming Club also was well known and respected when it reneged on its bonus. Do you remember the outrage by the player community and the various watchdogs?

Very well indeed. I remember "Brad" swearing blind that Gaming Club would NOT honour those bonuses. Then I remember their mighty climbdown - as predictable as it was sweet.

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These wager-first-bonus-later promos are a perfect vehicle for the casino trick of elicitting deposits and wagers under false pretexts. And they all try it, reputable and rogue, because their "escape clause" is superficially watertight - "sorry, you don't qualify". One would have to assume that the Peak group changed the nature of their promos, from upfront to post-wager, for specifically this purpose.

Hopefully they'll learn that it's not worth the bad publicity, and discontinue the practice.
 
I have had the same problem with Omni,
they sent me an email advertising the monthly bonus.
The next day I deposited $200, met the wagering requirements, but lost my $200.

Now they won't give me the bonus because 'a pattern was observed on your account and the Promotions Department made the decision to block your account for bonus abuse'.

At the very least, they should not advertise a bonus to me that they have no intention of paying.
 
Unbelievable - actually sending clients emails advertising the bonus and then denying it. This gets worse!

Unsurprisingly, it looks like Megen will be first to report this of many.
 
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FYI: From the Gaming Club thread:
... GC believes that it is incorrect to exclude players after they take up an offer that has been made to them unless such players blatantly breach the published terms and conditions.

GC therefore apologizes to all players for not acting in accordance with this belief, as well as for taking so long to realize and admit its error.

[...]

Finally, GC wishes to apologize to the affected players for the inconvenience and irritation that they have suffered in this process. It is entirely true to state that if GC has been foolish enough to offer an attractive but badly-designed promotion to players, then blame should not be placed upon the players when they seek to take advantage of it.
 
This is bad. Omni is a HUGE casino and if it offers a bonus for $2500 wagering then anyone who wagers $2500 or more should get their bonus without question. The casino can then email the client and say that next month they will not be eligable for the bonus.

Very bad publicity for Omni (Who IM Very HO deal a very dodgy blackjack game :eek: )

I feel a "megans law" is needed here :D
 
This has always been a problem with Sands, Omni and some of the other cryptologic casinos. They don't inform a player when they've been banned from receiving bonuses, so the player just discovers when they deposit. It attracts deposits under false pretences & leads to players gambling money they otherwise wouldn't. It might also cost them in terms of currency conversion or transaction charges, but of course there's always the option of withdrawing the deposit straight away, so any significant losses are the player's fault (yep, I've done it once or twice :D).

Only crediting the bonus after the wagering requirement was a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not sure why anyone would assume a casino wouldn't try to cheat a player - almost all casinos will pull any trick they think they can get away with to increase revenue. Hopefully Omni will have to rethink this one, though even if I was sure they'd honour the offer I wouldn't touch the bonus as it is now. The way their BJ plays you could lose a lot of money before getting the $100 bonus.
 
Omni casinos can bite me

Same thing just happened to me. They spam me every month with their bonus offers. This month I lost over $300 playing the $2500 needed only to be told they aren't going to honor the $100 after I played. I've spoken with them on the phone and those CS reps can do nothing about it. They don't respond to emails , even after the clerks on the phone tell you to email the promotions departement.

Total scumbag tactics being used here. Offer players rewards for playing and after they get the gameplay and in my case the money. They tell you to **** off.

They are instituting the old "since this is unregulated we can do whatever the heck we want with your money once you send it." I thought Cryptos were supposed to be above this behavior.

I also lost my whole deposit at Sands this month too. So maybe they can just refund both deposits in full ($835) instead of paying the $100 bonus.
 
To: Demango and KasinoKing

You too have some really ridiculous arguments. If you really believe what you are saying please give me your paypal email addresses and I will send you $25 to buy a clue. Based on your impressive logic it would be perfectly legit for Dell to advertise computers at a certain price with a rebate included, then screw everybody on the rebate even if they met the terms and conditions? Or maybe only if they only buy products that have rebate specials??
Or car dealerships can offer $2000 cash back , then after you sign decide not to give the cash back offer?

If a casino contacts you and offers a feward based on your play, they are making an agreement with you if you chose to take the offer. It's unethical for them to break the contract after you fulfill your half.


KasinoKing.... Do you know anything about gambling? If you walk into any casino in the USA (vegas, AC, etc) you will see that the majority of players FLAT BET when playing Blackjack and most other games as well. That is how the average gambler plays.


Demango.... I think you said earlier you see two camps developing on this issue. Well, your vision on that is about as good as your vision on the main issue here, extremely limited. It's basically you tow guys, then everyone else.


Nothing personal guys just get a little testy when a couple guys start defended an indefensable casino decision for the selfish reason of being able to continue playing bonuses at this casino. You can only try to defend a casino so much for those type reasons before seeing the situation for what it is. theft.
 
I've been waiting a couple of days for a second reply from Bob Mann. It's not been received yet. I've now done what I threatened them with if this wasn't resolved and 'dumped' them. They are also now removed from my Top Casinos list and all advertising for Peak Entertainment is gone. I emailed him again a few minutes ago and still expect this to be sorted out eventually.
 
Good job sirius. Nice to see some actions being taken. I fully expect to get this resolved. A casino group as big and experienced as Peak can't be this stupid. They ought to know better and will come to their senses. This is silly.
 
zrap said:
If a casino contacts you and offers a feward based on your play, they are making an agreement with you if you chose to take the offer. It's unethical for them to break the contract after you fulfill your half.
* sigh *

I really don't know why I'm bothering to type this.
There are some people posting here who would argue to the end of time that the world is flat.

This is my last post on this thread (you will be as glad to hear as I am!)

I asked in an earlier post if anyone knew a better way to meet a WR with minimum risk than by flat betting blackjack. No answer.
I asked why would anyone want to flat-bet blackjack (where the odds dictate that on average they will always lose), unless they were trying to meet WR with minimum risk. A weak answer about almost as much chance of winning or losing $100.
I made a statement to the effect that what Megan did was the most blatantly obvious system of trying to meet her WR with minimum loss, so she could take as much bonus money from the casino as possible. No-one has submitted a sensible argument against that.

Let me make one thing crystal clear before I go on:-
I am on Megan's side! I want her to play bonuses. I want her to win. I want her and everyone else reading this to take casino bonuses and make the most they can out of them. Like I do!
But please be cleverer about how you do it!

But what some of you don't want to admit (for a reason I cannot fathom) are the following points:-

1) Zrap - in your quote above, you mention 'Contract' and 'Agreement'. Good! When each of us sign up to a casino we make a 'Contract' to 'agree' and abide by their T&C's. If we don't like their T&C's, we don't sign up!
2) Omni's T&C's say (similar to virtually EVERY other casino I've seen):-
Promotions are intended as a bonus to loyal players, and to attract new end users to Omni Casino. Omni Casino encourages end users to participate in promotions, but to refrain from abusing them. Any abuse of a promotion which comes to the attention of Omni Casino may result in the cancellation of that promotion and/or future promotions.
3) Megan's play was the most blatantly obvious 'bonus abuse' there is, so the casino was quite within it's right to cancel her current promotion.
4) Several of you see these bonuses as yours by right! The whole concept of any bonus is it has to be earned in some way. In the instance of online casino's, all they ask is you 'earn' it by playing the games in the spirit they were designed for - GAMBLING! I reckon that is very fair and extremely generous of them!
5) Some have said the casino 'reneged' on it's bet, or 'stole' from the player. Utter bollox! If anyone was trying to steal anything, it was the player trying to steal the bonus.

To answer your other points:
Do I know anything about gambling? Not a lot. Don't even know 'basic blakcjack strategy'. But I know it means taking risks, and having fun. I know that I gamble nearly every day. I know I never 'flat bet' any game. I know that I've made well over $10,000 profit from online casinos in the last 4 years.
I also know how to read and understand casino T&C's. I know what happens if I break those T&Cs. I know that I make sure I stick to what they expect from me.

Do I make ridiculous arguments? I don't know - you tell me. You seem to be expert at that.

Dell computers & cars? What's that got to do with the subject?
OK, here's one: You drive to work down the same street every day. It's a 30mph zone - you know because you often glance at the road sign as you go past at 50mph each day. One day a policeman stops you and books you for breaking the 'T&C's' of the road. What do you do - turn round and say "You can't book me - I've been driving down here at 50mph every day for years - so it must be OK...." :p

I'm not about to walk into a Vegas casino - they're 6,000 miles away!
I was fortunate enough to visit there in May this year - and when I did go in I didn't look at, or give a toss what other players were doing. I sat down, played my progressive game, won or lost some of my online casino profit, and went to bed with a big smile, having thoroughly enjoyed my gambling experience.

That's it. No more. Off to make some more profits.... :D
Good luck to all gamblers!
 
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I'd successfully stayed out of this one for so long, but just can't hold back any more ...

The whole concept of any bonus is it has to be earned in some way. In the instance of online casino's, all they ask is you 'earn' it by playing the games in the spirit they were designed for - GAMBLING!

You're right, the bonus must be earned before a player can withdraw it (or receive it, in Omni's specific case). However, I differ on your definitions of what "earn" and "gambling" are.

If a player plays at the casino, even flat-betting at blackjack, he or she is "gambling." Even flat-betting and playing perfect strategy with blackjack doesn't guarantee that they will make a profit on the bonus or, in fact, keep any part of it. They stand a chance (or "gamble") that they'll even lose all of their deposit.

If they meet the WR, however they do it, they've "earned" the bonus. They "gambled" and was lucky enough to keep any part, or all, of that bonus.

If Omni doesn't care for the player's style of "gambling," by all means tell her that she's restricted from receiving bonuses from this point on. However, she "earned" that last bonus by meeting Omni's current T&C of wagering $2500.
 
I NEVER said flat-betting isn't gambling. (I said it's not proper gambling - just my opinion).

I DID say it's the most obvious form of bonus abuse, which is why Omni invoked their clearly stated T&C's and withheld the bonus.

As you don't agree with this (as is completely your right), I would dearly love to hear YOUR definition of what a more obvious method of bonus abuse is?
Or anyone else for that matter!

Please tell me - I'm all ears!

Jeeeeeeze! Why do I bother?
Definitely my last word!
(I hate arguing!)

PS. Haven't heard from Megan for ages - I wonder if she knows what she started! ;)
PPS. I haven't played at Onmi myself since February 2003! :D
 
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Kasino King said:

"I really don't know why I'm bothering to type this.
There are some people posting here who would argue to the end of time that the world is flat."

Well maybe I can help.

"I asked in an earlier post if anyone knew a better way to meet a WR with minimum risk than by flat betting blackjack. No answer."

It depends on what you mean by risk. Over a long period of time changing your bet won't affect your risk at all. I often encourage newbies to experiment with various bet sizing techniques for fun. But it doesn't change expectation.

Over the universe of those at Omni that play negative progressions, and postivie progressions and flat bet, the results will be the same. Hense Omni doesn't care - or shouldn't.

It may interest you to know (and other long term players can confirm) that some casinos prefer flat betting to D'Alembert and have even put that in their terms that a D'Alembert was abusive. They are wrong, of course.

I hope this is the answer you wanted.

"I asked why would anyone want to flat-bet blackjack (where the odds dictate that on average they will always lose), unless they were trying to meet WR with minimum risk."

People often like to flat bet ... because they do. I observe flat betting to be very common. And some people get anxious when there bets rise and it is less enjoyable. That's because a short term fluctuation can really mess up an otherwise enjoyable session.

The other reason is that people like to track the fairness of the game. It is easier to do when you flat bet. If you alter the bet size than each bet size is a subset with its on deviation. Flat betting gives a truer picture of how well the game behaves.

"I made a statement to the effect that what Megan did was the most blatantly obvious system of trying to meet her WR with minimum loss, so she could take as much bonus money from the casino as possible. No-one has submitted a sensible argument against that."

What arguement do you want. What her motivation is or was is a matter of speculation. But no casino has ever published that flat betting is bonus abuse although some have published to the contrary. Some bonus hunters flat bet. Some recreational betters flat bet. Some bonus hunters vary their bets. Some recreational players vary their bets. Some keno players flat bet, I would say most do. Doesn't mean they are bonus hunters.

"I am on Megan's side!... But please be cleverer about how you do it!"

I am also. The real bonus abuse occurs with the casino. They make the offer and don't want to perform. There is no such thing as player bonus abuse other than fraud, and this isn't fraud.

" Omni's T&C's say (similar to virtually EVERY other casino I've seen):-
Promotions are intended as a bonus to loyal players, and to attract new end users to Omni Casino. Omni Casino encourages end users to participate in promotions, but to refrain from abusing the,. Any abuse of a promotion which comes to the attention of Omni Casino may result in the cancellation of that promotion and/or future promotions."

Yes. And there was no abuse. I encourage you to read the Gameday thread that Caruso linked for you. This is very similar to that. The casino made all kinds of allegations about player abuse - all bogus - none having to do with the bet size.

"Some have said the casino 'reneged' on it's bet, or 'stole' from the player. Utter bollox! If anyone was trying to steal anything, it was the player trying to steal the bonus."

The player can't steal the bonus. They have to perform certain task and Megen did. This is a reneg.

I know you have had some fair success and don't understand why other players don't emulate you. I ask that you set that aside. In the early days the players were much abused and it was only a coming together and mutual support that was able to bring some discipline to the world of online gaming. During that time players and watchdogs evolved certain principles. One of those is that once a player meets the bonus terms the have to be paid. Another is that vague clauses of bonus abuse are uneforceable and meaningless. It isn't wise to go backwards. If anything, we need to further raise the standards.

But read the thread Caruso provided. That's the rallying we need here.

Stanford.
 
Quote from KasinoKing: "I made a statement to the effect that what Megan did was the most blatantly obvious system of trying to meet her WR with minimum loss, so she could take as much bonus money from the casino as possible. No-one has submitted a sensible argument against that. Why should there be any argument at all against what Megan did. There's absolutely nothing wrong, dishonset, illegal, immoral or untoward in any manner shape or form. Megan won the money fair and square, period. After all isn't the idea of gambling to take as much money from the house as possible. If not, I missed something. Have a good one.
 
KK, your post is way off the mark. This is not new stuff here. That casino and player enter into a contract that both are bound to is an accepted fact of the business. The facts are simple and clear-cut, and "the spirit of the promotion" rogue casino double talk or the get-out clause "we reserve the right" - present in EVERY casino terms page but only ever actually invoked by rogues - adds nothing to the casino case.

The player played by the terms and the player should be paid. And the player WILL be paid. The casino will just have to decide how much flack it wants to take before paying.

I made a statement to the effect that what Megan did was the most blatantly obvious system of trying to meet her WR with minimum loss, so she could take as much bonus money from the casino as possible. No-one has submitted a sensible argument against that.

The statement is ludicrous and irrelevant. It doesn't require a "sensible answer".
 
zrap said:
Same thing just happened to me. They spam me every month with their bonus offers. This month I lost over $300 playing the $2500 needed only to be told they aren't going to honor the $100 after I played. I've spoken with them on the phone and those CS reps can do nothing about it. They don't respond to emails , even after the clerks on the phone tell you to email the promotions departement...

I also lost my whole deposit at Sands this month too. So maybe they can just refund both deposits in full ($835) instead of paying the $100 bonus.

Well there goes the "flatbetting lets you steel the bonus" arguement.

I am sorry to see this happen to you and hope you pitch a bitch with the CasinoMeister. I think you will get the bonus. I suspect many players will be cheated and not find there way here so won't be compensated.

Sirius is doing some good work here, so keep your chin up.

Stanford.
 
Kasino King...

I'VE FIGURED IT OUT!!!!

I've figured out why you are the only one left who doesn't "get it"!!!!

Your post a little while ago explained it all!! Man I'm glad we figured out the problem and I'm thrilled to solve your misunderstandings!

Here goes. You quoted from their web

2) Omni's T&C's say (similar to virtually EVERY other casino I've seen):-
Promotions are intended as a bonus to loyal players, and to attract new end users to Omni Casino. Omni Casino encourages end users to participate in promotions, but to refrain from abusing them. Any abuse of a promotion which comes to the attention of Omni Casino may result in the cancellation of that promotion and/or future promotions



The problem with your argument is that there was NO BONUS ABUSE !!!
Even if Megan deposited $50 every month and played 2500 $1 hands of BJ every month and then cashed out ...THATS NOT ABUSE!
It obviously isn't smart to play that way and the casino shure wouldn't like it but it isn't abuse.

Now if Megan played 2500 $1 hands of pass/don't pass on the craps table. That is BONUS ABUSE as she broke their detailed terms and conditions and they would have the right to refuse the bonus.

Now if they had a line in their terms saying No craps, roulette, baccarat, on flat betting on blackjack. Then Megan would indeed be guilty of BONUS ABUSE and not entiltled to the adverstised bonus.

KK, you are thinking like all the scumbag RTG casinos think, any type of betting that they don't like they feel the right to claim it abusive. Even slot players are sometimes accused of bonus abuse just for winning while getting a bonus.
 
zrap said:
Kasino King...
Now if Megan played 2500 $1 hands of pass/don't pass on the craps table. That is BONUS ABUSE as she broke their detailed terms and conditions and they would have the right to refuse the bonus.
.
You can't abuse a bonus you have not received. :)
 
In defense of KK I think he is saying that stupid advantage players could threaten the income stream of many players on this forum if casinos pull their bonuses. Therefore why should we defend this apparently selfish behaviour.

I don't subscribe to this theory because if everyone played sensibly there would be no bonuses offered anyway.

The whole bonus system depends on stupid players. Bring em on I say.

The casinos can always selectively bar stupid players from bonuses whilst still trying to get a competitive edge over their rivals.

Obviously I agree bonuses should not be withdrawn after the event or not given when all technical requirements have been met.

Mitch

"win don't gamble"
 
Zrap,

Look mate - I'm TRYING to stop posting on this stupid subject! ;)

But you just made another statement that in my opinion is ridiculous!

Now you started talking about Craps. This is clearly labeled as being excluded from WR play in a separate condition of the casino.
Therefore this can not even come into the Condition about bonus abuse, because the software automatically discounts these bets from the WR.

Now Sanford (total respect :notworthy ) has posted a very detailed reply which fully explains that there is no such thing as 'bonus abuse'.
OK, I personally fail to understand why casino's have a condition relating to something that doesn't exist, but if that's the way it is - fine! Suits me!

So for a quiet life - I'm just going to agree with everything you've said, so I can get on with some gambling, and then get a good night's sleep!

You're right, I'm wrong. Good luck & Good night! :thumbsup:
 
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KK,
I specifically brought up craps to make the point that playing craps is bonus abuse. Because it says so in the terms and conditions.
Playing Blackjack (no matter the denomination) isn't bonus abuse cause there is no mention of it in the agreement.

Why is this such a difficult concept??

Bonus abuse is when a player breaks the terms and conditions, this is not the case.
 
KasinoKing said:
Zrap,

Look mate - I'm TRYING to stop posting on this stupid subject! ;)

But you just made another statement that in my opinion is ridiculous!

Now you started talking about Craps. This is clearly labeled as being excluded from WR play in a separate condition of the casino.
Therefore this can not even come into the Condition about bonus abuse, because the software automatically discounts these bets from the WR.

Now Sanford (total respect :notworthy ) has posted a very detailed reply which fully explains that there is no such thing as 'bonus abuse'.
OK, I personally fail to understand why casino's have a condition relating to something that doesn't exist, but if that's the way it is - fine! Suits me!

So for a quiet life - I'm just going to agree with everything you've said, so I can get on with some gambling, and then get a good night's sleep!

You're right, I'm wrong. Good luck & Good night! :thumbsup:

Do you see a word in anything that I've said that has anything at all to do with craps. The fact of the matter is your arguments from the gate have no merit. NONE, ZIP NADA. I could care less what your most recent argument is you are W-R-O-N-G. Have a good one.
 
Eureka!

To: Zrap and all the guys on your side of this 'argument',

I've got it, got it, got it! Amazing how a good night's sleep clears your head!

Your last post was the key that unlocked this dispute when you said 'there was no bonus abuse'!

Maybe this 'disagreement' stems as much from cultural and legal differences between the UK & the USA as anything else!

This whole issue is down to how each of us interpret the 'Law' (the casino's T&C's).
Interpretation of subjective laws have caused unquantifiable arguments in law-courts all over the world, and now at Casinomeister too!

Your side are saying there was no abuse because there is no 'black and white' law which states 'thou shalt not play a minimal risk strategy with a permitted game to the point of meeting the WR, and then bugger off with the bonus money'

My side is saying there is a subjective law which states 'any play which the casino deems to be abusive, in the opinion of the casino management, may lead to the removal of said bonus from the player concerned'

We are just saying, that in this instance, the management deemed Megan's play to be abusive, and so removed the bonus.

We are also saying we agree that the casino should have the right to do this.


You are saying the casino has no right to do this!

(If I owned a casino, I'd be pretty miffed if guys like you came along and tried to tell me what rules I could or couldn't have in my own place! But I don't want to start an argument about that!)

So who is right, and who is wrong? I don't know - that's a subjective question!!

Please follow this link from Megan's original post and read condition 5:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
.

I admit that my beliefs on what I would expect the casino would 'deem to be abusive' are strongly influenced by an e-mail I was sent, when I myself was barred from receiving bonus from another Crypto casino, (despite the fact that I actually lost money to them in the preceding 9 months and did not break any of their black & white laws):-

(This is a genuine mail, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent, and the guilty!)
Dear King,

Hello and thank you for contacting the Smallcock Casino Support team.

At Smallcock Casino we aim to offer our players the fairest bonuses each month to reward them for their loyalty.

Unfortunately, over recent months we have seen an increase in the number of players who have been abusing this offer on a regular basis.

We have therefore analysed our player records and we have identified a number of players who fall into this category. There are a number of factors we considered, the most common include:

- players who deposited 25 and withdrew 25 therefore only playing with the House's money and never risking any of their own money

- players who placed low risk wagers on games such as roulette or baccarat to fulfil the wagering requirement

- players who given the bonus, just met the wagering requirement, withdrawn the money and not played with us again

Looking at your recent playing behaviour at Smallcock Casino we are afraid you fall into this category.

Therefore we have restricted your account from receiving these monthly match bonuses in the future. (Please note however your account is still active and you may play in the casino at anytime using your own funds). You are also entitled to take part in our other player promotions such as tournaments.

If you feel as a player you have been included in error then we sincerely apologise. Please send an email to

[email protected] and we will review your account immediately.

We hope this attends to your enquiry. If we can be of any more assistance please feel free to contact us anytime. We are open 24 hours per day, 7 days a week (including holidays). You can contact one of our friendly and courteous Smallcock Casino support staff (toll-free) at: 555 4455

So that's it! All differences now clearly understood!

Now that's settled, I think I might just re-visit my 18-months dormant Omni account, and see how much bonus I can abuse out of them! ;)
 
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Dominique * * I have always looked at my bonus as a Privilege with a few rights! **

There is a thin line between the two. AND, I know there a supposed list of bonus abusers but how about a list of bonus-user-abusers.
Grin * it IS Friday and I AM allowed to dream!
 
KasinoKing, it is up to the casino whether they allow players a bonus. This casino did nothing wrong because they informed you about it beforehand. The bonus there is instant so at least if you hadn't read the email you would have noticed when you deposited that the bonus wasn't being awarded!

KasinoKing said:
Dear King,

Hello and thank you for contacting the Smallcock Casino Support team.

At Smallcock Casino we aim to offer our players the fairest bonuses each month to reward them for their loyalty.

Unfortunately, over recent months we have seen an increase in the number of players who have been abusing this offer on a regular basis.

We have therefore analysed our player records and we have identified a number of players who fall into this category. There are a number of factors we considered, the most common include:

- players who deposited 25 and withdrew 25 therefore only playing with the House's money and never risking any of their own money

- players who placed low risk wagers on games such as roulette or baccarat to fulfil the wagering requirement

- players who given the bonus, just met the wagering requirement, withdrawn the money and not played with us again

Looking at your recent playing behaviour at Smallcock Casino we are afraid you fall into this category.

Therefore we have restricted your account from receiving these monthly match bonuses in the future. (Please note however your account is still active and you may play in the casino at anytime using your own funds). You are also entitled to take part in our other player promotions such as tournaments.

If you feel as a player you have been included in error then we sincerely apologise. Please send an email to

[email protected] and we will review your account immediately.

We hope this attends to your enquiry. If we can be of any more assistance please feel free to contact us anytime. We are open 24 hours per day, 7 days a week (including holidays). You can contact one of our friendly and courteous Smallcock Casino support staff (toll-free) at: 555 4455
 
KasinoKing said:
My side is saying there is a subjective law which states 'any play which the casino deems to be abusive, in the opinion of the casino management, may lead to the removal of said bonus from the player concerned'

This is a very slippery slope. The management could say that true gamblers always play until they lose all their money, so if you win, you are clearly a bonus abuser. :)


KasinoKing said:
We are just saying, that in this instance, the management deemed Megan's play to be abusive, and so removed the bonus.
The bonus was not awarded in the first place.


KasinoKing said:
(If I owned a casino, I'd be pretty miffed if guys like you came along and tried to tell me what rules I could or couldn't have in my own place! But I don't want to start an argument about that!)
Sticking to your own terms and conditions would be a good start.

KasinoKing said:
(This is a genuine mail, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent, and the guilty!)

We have therefore analysed our player records and we have identified a number of players who fall into this category. There are a number of factors we considered, the most common include:

- players who deposited 25 and withdrew 25 therefore only playing with the House's money and never risking any of their own money
This is abuse, I agree, but the best defence for the casino is not to allow the withdrawal in such circumstances.

KasinoKing said:
- players who placed low risk wagers on games such as roulette or baccarat to fulfil the wagering requirement
Betting on opposite outcomes is clearly abuse, but "low risk" is not a well-defined concept.

KasinoKing said:
- players who given the bonus, just met the wagering requirement, withdrawn the money and not played with us again
This is not abuse. Advantage play at worst, but it could simply mean that the player did not like the casino.
 
GrandMaster said:
This is a very slippery slope. The management could say that true gamblers always play until they lose all their money, so if you win, you are clearly a bonus abuser. :)
YES, YES, YES! You're getting closer to understanding what I am saying! :thumbsup:

1) Any casino can offer it's services with any damn conditions it wants!
2) If you don't like the conditions - you don't have to sign up!
3) If you do sign up, you have to accept ALL their conditions!
4) Just because you don't like one of their conditions, or think it's unfair - why should that mean they can not impose it, or that it should not apply to YOU?

Another hypothetical example someone will no doubt say is ridiculous:
Suppose I signed up to a casino, and one of it's terms & conditions said "If you get 3 blackjacks in a row, your account will be closed and all deposits forfeited"
Now, by signing up I'm accepting this totally stupid condition. If I didn't like it - I wouldn't sign up!
If I got 3 blackjacks in a row and was banned, would I create a 'song and dance' about it? No I would not, because I accepted their conditions!


GrandMaster said:
The bonus was not awarded in the first place.
Splitting hairs here! ;)
You know what I mean - awarded/earned = same thing. Removed/denied = same thing.


GrandMaster said:
Sticking to your own terms and conditions would be a good start.
I totally agree! And that is EXACTLY what Omni did. Condition No5:-
[5] Omni Casino, CryptoLogic Inc., WagerLogic Limited and ECash Direct (UK) Limited reserve the right to review transaction records and logs, from time to time, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such review, it appears that end users or any one or combination of them are participating in strategies which Omni Casino, CryptoLogic Inc., WagerLogic Limited and ECash Direct (UK) Limited in their sole discretion deem to be abusive, Omni Casino, CryptoLogic Inc., WagerLogic Limited and ECash Direct (UK) Limited reserve the right to revoke the entitlement of such end user(s) to the promotion.
Yep - I'm pretty sure they stuck to this condition in Megan's instance.

I don't like it. You don't like it. Megan doesn't like it. Most other posters here don't like it. But when we signed up with Omni Casino - we agreed to it. Therefore we MUST accept it.

You are supposed to be 'The Voice of Reason' - what is unreasonable about what I'm saying? Really?

I'm not answering your points against the e-mail I quoted. I was just telling you what they said - it was not my words. If you want to argue about that you'll have to contact Smallcock Casino!

Have a nice evening! :cool:
 
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If, upon such review, it appears that end users or any one or combination of them are participating in strategies which Omni Casino, CryptoLogic Inc., WagerLogic Limited and ECash Direct (UK) Limited in their sole discretion deem to be abusive, Omni Casino, CryptoLogic Inc., WagerLogic Limited and ECash Direct (UK) Limited reserve the right to revoke the entitlement of such end user(s) to the promotion.

OK, make sure you're sitting down, KK, because I'm actually agreeing with you on this one (well, in part)! ;)

However, the problem comes when Omni "revoke[d] the entitlement of such end user(s) to the promotion." If Omni deemed the strategy to be abusive, then by all means revoke Megan's entitlement to any further promotions.

However, Megan deposited under good faith -- not having been told that s/he had been deemed "abusive" -- and believed that the bonus would be received after meeting a certain amount of wagering. For the casino to deem the strategy abusive after that and deny the bonus ... well, therein lies the rub.

By all means, Omni has the power -- per their T&C -- to deem anyone "abusive" for whatever "strategies" the player may use. But Omni's timing of this decision is what's called into question.
 
KasinoKing said:
YES, YES, YES! You're getting closer to understanding what I am saying! :thumbsup:

1) Any casino can offer it's services with any damn conditions it wants!
2) If you don't like the conditions - you don't have to sign up!
3) If you do sign up, you have to accept ALL their conditions!
4) Just because you don't like one of their conditions, or think it's unfair - why should that mean they can not impose it, or that it should not apply to YOU?

This reminds me of a lot of my business practice.

I have had many clients that wanted to build "gotchas" into their agreements. But they still wanted to get the business and so they wanted the "gotchas" to be unclear in some manner.

This is really bad form. In cases of dispute, ambiguity is rightly construed against those that drafted the agreement. So things like "abusive strategies" isn't going to cut well with watchdogs and players. It doesn't mean anything.

With my clients, I advocate they spell out things clearly. You might hear the word "transparency" used a lot.

It really is a shame because the casinos can make this process very transparent. Omni wants a "play first bonus later" promotion. That is exactly what a players card is. They can make the bonus contingent on points and they can make the 'points per dollar wagered' different for every game.

How amazingly simple. No restricted games. No worry about abuse. They can favor some games over others. Easily administered. Totally transparent. Easily adjusted.

Now the reason for a promotion is to garner additional revenues. It is most likely that to get the maximum revenue, they will design a bonus that some more sophisticated players will be able to exploit. It happens every day in the real world. They should not worry about that. If anything, they should promote it.

They should only be concerned with the net additional revenues from a promotion. If they try to eliminate all leakage they will lose themselves money and frustrate everyone else in the process.

Think back to marketing 101 and the loss leader concept. Milk was commonly sold at a small loss. The grocer lost money to those that bought milk only. But it was the net traffic that made it worthwhile.

My advice to Omni is not to get defensive. Come to the boards and engage in a productive discussion. Design a program that is totally transparent and trumpet it to the world. We players have no wish to harm them.

IMHO,
Stanford.
 
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Macgyver said:
OK, make sure you're sitting down, KK, because I'm actually agreeing with you on this one (well, in part)! ;)
Luckily I was sitting down! ;)

You better be too - because I agree with you. I think the way Omni handled this was poor, and she should have been warned in advance. Even though, to the true letter of their conditions, they made no commitment or promise of any prior warnings. But I believe from Sirius' post that Omni has apologised for this and are putting it right. Nice one Omni! :thumbsup:

But this 'debate' then moved on from Megan's case to a global discussion on what is, or is not 'bonus abuse' and whether players are contracted to the casino's T&C's, or whether they could claim to be 'exempt' from them, just because they didn't like them! I was just quoting Megan's case and Omni Casino as an example. It could apply to anyone at any casino.

I nearly give up on this, but I think I have finally put my point across as clearly as possible.

No doubt there will still be some who want to argue about this - the one's who also believe the world is flat! :D

Have a good weekend!
KK
 
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I think you're making absurd statements to stir the pot and get a bit of attention. Whatever turns you on, I suppose.

Maybe this 'disagreement' stems as much from cultural and legal differences between the UK & the USA as anything else!

No, I'm not located too far from you myself, and your posts are off their trolley from my perspective as well.

Angelciti, Gaming Club, English Harbour and all other casinos that have been the subject of protracted public scandals all maintain the "we reserve the right to screw you" clause. None of those groups invoked it (in the end). Only a casino with no concern for public disgrace and serious loss of business through loss of player / affiliate support would ever actually invoke that clause. It would be suicide. Even the shadier RTGs pay in the end, and they all "reserve the right".

This matter is being pointlessly complicated for absolutely no good reason, and it isn't doing any of the players concerned any favours.
 
Update

I finally got an email response from the promotions department at this place, here it is...

I am glad that you took the time to express the way that you feel about
this promotion.

I would honestly like you to give me a call tomorrow while I am on schedule
from 7am-3pm Eastern at Toll Free 1-888-477-2239. I would like to personally
discuss the status of your account and as to why we opt to have a temporary
block placed on this particular account of yours with Omni Casino.

I hope to hear from you tomorrow if not, I am again on schedule for Saturday
at the same times.

Looking forward to talk to you.

Regards,

Abi
Omni Casino
Promotions Department
www.omnicasino.com
[email protected]
1-888-477-2239



Seemed pretty optimistic, So I gave her a call during the hours she suggested today. Well, she wasn't there as she apparently left early today. Then I was told she wouldn't even be in again until Tuesday.

Quite the operation going there. They admit to having issues with the way they are running their promotions and claimed to be working hard and straightening things out but the person in charge of this department is leaving early and won't be back til Tuesday. Working real hard over there!
 
zrap said:
I finally got an email response from the promotions department at this place, here it is...

Seemed pretty optimistic, So I gave her a call during the hours she suggested today. Well, she wasn't there as she apparently left early today. Then I was told she wouldn't even be in again until Tuesday.

Zrapture,

I am sorry you are having trouble there. Despite the frustration, I take the offer for you to call to be a positive sign.

Sirius has been working the issue and I know that CasinoMesiter said he was going to look into what is going on. So hang in there and I suspect things will turn around.

Stanford.
 
casinomeister said:
As you may have guessed, I'm on the road again - but I'm in Barcelona at the EIG. I spied one of the operators form across the room earlier today, but I didn't have a chance to go shoot the shit. This is the first time I've read this post (my Internet connectivity ain't the best), but I'll be heading back over to the conference center this evening and hopefully I'll run into him and find out what the scoop is.

Casinomeister, did you find out what the scoop is?

Stanford
 
Thanks to everyone for going to the trouble of expressing their views. The points raised have been argued far more eloquently than I could have managed alone.

As of this moment this issue remains unresolved. I was approched by Kim Perraud Director of Operations Peak Entertainment via email last week and I responded as follows:

"G'day Kim

Thanks for making contact. Ive had my internet connection temporarily disconnected so available time prevented a prompt response.

I took this issue to the Forums (CasinoMeister + WOL) as the original email I received read in a "take no prisoners" fashion. The subsequent explosion of Forum discussion took me by surprise - it seems a player nerve has indeed been struck.

The issues for me boil down to:

1. Omni should not invite me (implicit or otherwise) to fulfill WR $2500 on the promise of a bonus ($100) only to rely on T+Cs fine print (heavily reliant on interpretation) to deny that bonus.
2. Terms such as "bonus abuse", "pattern of play" and "player loyalty" escape unambiguous definition (see the Forums) and as a result breed player discontent.

As a relatively new player to on-line gambling I have proceeded with a large dose of scepticism as to the fairness of casino games, and likewise, the integrity of the organisations standing behind those games. I only played at certain Cryptograghic casinos as they received a broad-based appeal from the more seasoned on-line players.

In the light of my recent experiences it seems I will need to re-assess my continuing on-line gaming future."

So until Omni Casino come to their senses it's good-bye from Megan.
 
I just also got my bonus denied after wagering 2500$.

They say I did not cover the WR for the last three months. The fact is I busted out on these three occasions.

Now they want me to cover 5600$ in wagers (even though their rules don't mention that WR carry over) in order to receive my bonus.

I guess I'll call the promo dept. when they open and give them hell about this dirty trick.

Edit : I just spoke with another CSR on Live Chat. Now he says that covering the 5600$ in backwards WR might not necessarily do the trick. A review must be made in my favor by the promo dept. Am I glad I did not take the first CSR's word and went on wagering 5600$ for nothing? What a fiasco this is!
 
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Sorry to hear of your difficulties evoid. This has certainly been a marketing disaster for the Casino that was avoidable from the beginning.

GOOD NEWS!!!

I have been paid the $100 bonus which was debited to my account without any additional comment or explanation from Omni Casino.

I would like to express my gratitude to Frank from "focalclick", and Sirius who worked behind the scenes on my behalf.

Additionally I am indebted to CasinoMeister and WOL forums without which I simply would not be playing on-line casino games.
 
Well you can add me to the list of players they've SENT an email advertising the bonus and then refused to give it to.

What really makes me laugh is the term they claim gives them the right

This loyalty bonus will not be credited to accounts that have in the past shown patterns of bonus abuse (ie wagering is done primarily using promotional funds and not deposited funds).

Considering I play a minimum of $50 a hand blackjack (regularly $100+) and $25 at Video Poker there is no way they can claim I don't use my own funds to wager.

I've lost hundreds in a session here many, many times over the years.

Pitched a Bitch
 
Megan,

Although I was one of the people saying your betting pattern was always very likely to get you labelled as a 'bonus abuser', I still think the casino handled it wrong in not warning you earlier.
I am very pleased for you that they have now given you your $100.

You didn't say, but I presume though that you are still excluded from future Omni promotions? (Not that you're likely to want to play there again anyway!)

Good luck with your future 'advantage play'! ;)

.
Dirk Diggler said:
Considering I play a minimum of $50 a hand blackjack (regularly $100+) and $25 at Video Poker there is no way they can claim I don't use my own funds to wager.
That is totally outrageous! Flat betting BJ with minimum stake is one thing, but how can anyone say bets of your size are 'risk free'. I've not heard anything so stupid for a long time.

Seems to me Omni have got themselves totally tied up in knots trying to offer a great bonus while ensuring no-one at all can profit from it! Crazy.

They need to step back, think about it, and start again! :what:
 
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Got the bonus chips denied as well. (through livechat)

I play regularly on a $20+ level - thus obviously not a highroller like Dirk Diggler... ;)
Lost 400$ here in November, btw.

I will send an email to their marketing department - and if nothing happens, pitch a bitch here at CM.

Omni Casino should be forced to return to the behavior of a reputable casino, which stands by their words.
 
I play high stakes like Dirk, by the way, 50-200$ hands.

Edit : the promo dept. just answered my (furious) email. They apologize and have credited my 100$.

Before depositing next month I will get my elligibility confirmed.
 
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