Omni Casino tricks

the important thing here is if they correct things and pay this player that last bonus.

after that, the casino should notify her if she is still eligible to receive these bonus monies.
 
Stanford said:
"Regardless of whether you thought they were right or wrong, the fact is that their intention was not to defraud the player."

Yes, but we didn't know this. Reneging on a bonus is the same as reneging on a bet. Serious as a heart attack.

"And Megan's intentions were simply to capture the bonus. She had pointedly remarked that she would stop play as soon as she reached the WR. No judgement on my part - statement of fact."

The only time I saw how much she wagered was when she said she was over $2900 on a $2500 requirement.
Stanford

In Megan's initial post, she indicated that in September, she won a net $130, $100 of which included the bonus. In October, she won a net $80 (inclusive of the bonus). She wagered the $2900 in November. I inferred - perhaps incorrectly - that in the two previous months she stopped wagering as soon as she earned the bonus.

As for "reneging" on the bonus, Omni included the usual disclaimer regarding bonus abusers. If it classified her as such, then it was simply doing so based upon its internal processes. For someone to claim that Omni was seeking to "cheat" Megan outright is nonsensical, given the amount of business Peak Entertainment does.

Stanford said:
"However...if you operated a casino, and assuming Megan's situation many times over, wouldn't you be tempted to pull all bonuses, or simply make the terms more onerous? This isn't without precedent - there are many groups out there who have either eliminated bonuses entirely, disqualified blackjack as part of the WR, or use sticky bonuses. The business is all about cash flow, and if more money is flowing out from a program than in, what incentive is there to still provide it?"

Why are you concerned about that. There are plenty of players that play full tilt. It doesn't take much salting to get them going. They will get a mix of those that play close to the WRs and those that play way over the WRs and points in between.
Stanford

So...applying your logic, why would Omni choose to "cheat" a player who plays as close to the vest as Megan does? And I daresay that players who continually play close to the WR (as Megan apparently has) may suffer the same treatment from Omni. If you consider how many casinos now use sticky bonuses or exclude BJ wagering for WR purposes, then my concern that Omni might think itself better served withOUT this particular bonus isn't too farfetched.

Stanford said:
"Wouldn't it be ironic if Omni chooses to pull its bonus program entirely, partly because it had to pay bonus "users" such as Megan? We players may have won this battle, but whither goest the war?"

Look, online gaming is fraught with reneging for all kinds of reasons. That's just no way to do business. We can minimize this by having standards and insisting on them. Even eCOGRA wouldn't tolerate a situation like this.

It would be silly if Omni pulled its bonus program. Do you think MGM will stop offering free drinks if you played one hand, got your free drink and left?
Stanford

Why would it be "silly"? There are a number of casinos that offer far less lucrative bonus structures, or have reduced theirs significantly.

From a business standpoint, it wouldn't be silly at all. It's merely a risk-benefit scenario. MGM would have no problem offering a drink that costs them perhaps a $1.00 wholesale, knowing that in aggregate they will earn it back quite easily. Having one drunk player betting black can likely cover their alcohol costs for an entire night... :)

With a $100 bonus, the earnback scenario changes. If they have enough repeat customers within a given month, business rationale would indicate that the bonus isn't the primary draw, and why would a casino willingly give $100 if it did not need to?

Nor is that scenario farfetched, even within the Peak Entertainment Group. In that particular family, only two offers any sort of bonus, while the other two offers an "insurance" variant.
 
Quote: "Reneging on a bonus is the same as reneging on a bet. Serious as a heart attack." Well said Stanford. I can't imagine for even a minute how in the world the management of OMNI can in anyway attempt to legitimize or even rationalize their conduct in this regard. To literally trip over dollar bills in an effort to pick up pennies is absolutely laughable and tells you one hell of a lot about this management group.
 
dickens1298 said:
"As for "reneging" on the bonus, Omni included the usual disclaimer regarding bonus abusers. If it classified her as such, then it was simply doing so based upon its internal processes. For someone to claim that Omni was seeking to "cheat" Megan outright is nonsensical, given the amount of business Peak Entertainment does."

It isn't nonsensical. It is perfectly sensible. Gaming Club also was well known and respected when it reneged on its bonus. Do you remember the outrage by the player community and the various watchdogs?

Such terms that allow some arbitrary classification for something called "bonus abusers" have always been uneforceable. You can't invite players to a promotion - then remove their promotions or their winnings or their deposit or any combination of same by simply labeling them.

"If you consider how many casinos now use sticky bonuses or exclude BJ wagering for WR purposes, then my concern that Omni might think itself better served withOUT this particular bonus isn't too farfetched."

I think it perfectly reasonable that they might increase the bonus, decrease the bonus, remove the bonus, or add someother promotion. That isn't of any concern.

"From a business standpoint, it wouldn't be silly at all. It's merely a risk-benefit scenario. MGM would have no problem offering a drink that costs them perhaps a $1.00 wholesale, knowing that in aggregate they will earn it back quite easily. Having one drunk player betting black can likely cover their alcohol costs for an entire night... :)"

Exactly right. It would be silly to base a decision on Megen. It is small change. By the way, factor in the cost of labor and the overhead and that drink cost more than a dollar.

"With a $100 bonus, the earnback scenario changes. If they have enough repeat customers within a given month, business rationale would indicate that the bonus isn't the primary draw, and why would a casino willingly give $100 if it did not need to?

Nor is that scenario farfetched, even within the Peak Entertainment Group. In that particular family, only two offers any sort of bonus, while the other two offers an "insurance" variant."

That is up to them to decide. An online casion only has a limited number of options to attract players. How they do it is up to them. Any promotion is simply a cost of the business. It would be like worrying about the enormous cost of building a new casino. Yes, it cost a bundle to build the Bellegio. They do that to attract players.

Omni doesn't have those cost. It does still have to attract players. That they have a cost intrinsic to their business is no reason not to require high standards.

This isn't difficult. Casinos have to be fair with their players. All of them. Every time. The player community needs to demand it. When Congress again brings up banning Onlines, the casinos will do just what they did last time and ask the player community to rally to their cause. Those that rally are the long time players who they hate. The compulsives burn out and go away eventually. Those of us that play in a controlled manner and then get called bonus abusers are the ones that write the letters and make the phone calls.

The only real bonus abusers are those casinos who attract players with a bonus and then change the terms. This bait and switch tactic is highly unethical. And sadly some of the best casinos still do it.

Omni says this is just an error. So be it. I applaud them taking care of this situation. And I applaud Sirius who brought it to their attention. I also applaud you Dickens for a thoughtful exchange.

Stanford.
 
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As you may have guessed, I'm on the road again - but I'm in Barcelona at the EIG. I spied one of the operators form across the room earlier today, but I didn't have a chance to go shoot the shit. This is the first time I've read this post (my Internet connectivity ain't the best), but I'll be heading back over to the conference center this evening and hopefully I'll run into him and find out what the scoop is.
 
Stanford said:
Gaming Club also was well known and respected when it reneged on its bonus. Do you remember the outrage by the player community and the various watchdogs?

Very well indeed. I remember "Brad" swearing blind that Gaming Club would NOT honour those bonuses. Then I remember their mighty climbdown - as predictable as it was sweet.

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These wager-first-bonus-later promos are a perfect vehicle for the casino trick of elicitting deposits and wagers under false pretexts. And they all try it, reputable and rogue, because their "escape clause" is superficially watertight - "sorry, you don't qualify". One would have to assume that the Peak group changed the nature of their promos, from upfront to post-wager, for specifically this purpose.

Hopefully they'll learn that it's not worth the bad publicity, and discontinue the practice.
 
I have had the same problem with Omni,
they sent me an email advertising the monthly bonus.
The next day I deposited $200, met the wagering requirements, but lost my $200.

Now they won't give me the bonus because 'a pattern was observed on your account and the Promotions Department made the decision to block your account for bonus abuse'.

At the very least, they should not advertise a bonus to me that they have no intention of paying.
 
Unbelievable - actually sending clients emails advertising the bonus and then denying it. This gets worse!

Unsurprisingly, it looks like Megen will be first to report this of many.
 
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FYI: From the Gaming Club thread:
... GC believes that it is incorrect to exclude players after they take up an offer that has been made to them unless such players blatantly breach the published terms and conditions.

GC therefore apologizes to all players for not acting in accordance with this belief, as well as for taking so long to realize and admit its error.

[...]

Finally, GC wishes to apologize to the affected players for the inconvenience and irritation that they have suffered in this process. It is entirely true to state that if GC has been foolish enough to offer an attractive but badly-designed promotion to players, then blame should not be placed upon the players when they seek to take advantage of it.
 
This is bad. Omni is a HUGE casino and if it offers a bonus for $2500 wagering then anyone who wagers $2500 or more should get their bonus without question. The casino can then email the client and say that next month they will not be eligable for the bonus.

Very bad publicity for Omni (Who IM Very HO deal a very dodgy blackjack game :eek: )

I feel a "megans law" is needed here :D
 
This has always been a problem with Sands, Omni and some of the other cryptologic casinos. They don't inform a player when they've been banned from receiving bonuses, so the player just discovers when they deposit. It attracts deposits under false pretences & leads to players gambling money they otherwise wouldn't. It might also cost them in terms of currency conversion or transaction charges, but of course there's always the option of withdrawing the deposit straight away, so any significant losses are the player's fault (yep, I've done it once or twice :D).

Only crediting the bonus after the wagering requirement was a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not sure why anyone would assume a casino wouldn't try to cheat a player - almost all casinos will pull any trick they think they can get away with to increase revenue. Hopefully Omni will have to rethink this one, though even if I was sure they'd honour the offer I wouldn't touch the bonus as it is now. The way their BJ plays you could lose a lot of money before getting the $100 bonus.
 
Omni casinos can bite me

Same thing just happened to me. They spam me every month with their bonus offers. This month I lost over $300 playing the $2500 needed only to be told they aren't going to honor the $100 after I played. I've spoken with them on the phone and those CS reps can do nothing about it. They don't respond to emails , even after the clerks on the phone tell you to email the promotions departement.

Total scumbag tactics being used here. Offer players rewards for playing and after they get the gameplay and in my case the money. They tell you to **** off.

They are instituting the old "since this is unregulated we can do whatever the heck we want with your money once you send it." I thought Cryptos were supposed to be above this behavior.

I also lost my whole deposit at Sands this month too. So maybe they can just refund both deposits in full ($835) instead of paying the $100 bonus.
 
To: Demango and KasinoKing

You too have some really ridiculous arguments. If you really believe what you are saying please give me your paypal email addresses and I will send you $25 to buy a clue. Based on your impressive logic it would be perfectly legit for Dell to advertise computers at a certain price with a rebate included, then screw everybody on the rebate even if they met the terms and conditions? Or maybe only if they only buy products that have rebate specials??
Or car dealerships can offer $2000 cash back , then after you sign decide not to give the cash back offer?

If a casino contacts you and offers a feward based on your play, they are making an agreement with you if you chose to take the offer. It's unethical for them to break the contract after you fulfill your half.


KasinoKing.... Do you know anything about gambling? If you walk into any casino in the USA (vegas, AC, etc) you will see that the majority of players FLAT BET when playing Blackjack and most other games as well. That is how the average gambler plays.


Demango.... I think you said earlier you see two camps developing on this issue. Well, your vision on that is about as good as your vision on the main issue here, extremely limited. It's basically you tow guys, then everyone else.


Nothing personal guys just get a little testy when a couple guys start defended an indefensable casino decision for the selfish reason of being able to continue playing bonuses at this casino. You can only try to defend a casino so much for those type reasons before seeing the situation for what it is. theft.
 
I've been waiting a couple of days for a second reply from Bob Mann. It's not been received yet. I've now done what I threatened them with if this wasn't resolved and 'dumped' them. They are also now removed from my Top Casinos list and all advertising for Peak Entertainment is gone. I emailed him again a few minutes ago and still expect this to be sorted out eventually.
 
Good job sirius. Nice to see some actions being taken. I fully expect to get this resolved. A casino group as big and experienced as Peak can't be this stupid. They ought to know better and will come to their senses. This is silly.
 
zrap said:
If a casino contacts you and offers a feward based on your play, they are making an agreement with you if you chose to take the offer. It's unethical for them to break the contract after you fulfill your half.
* sigh *

I really don't know why I'm bothering to type this.
There are some people posting here who would argue to the end of time that the world is flat.

This is my last post on this thread (you will be as glad to hear as I am!)

I asked in an earlier post if anyone knew a better way to meet a WR with minimum risk than by flat betting blackjack. No answer.
I asked why would anyone want to flat-bet blackjack (where the odds dictate that on average they will always lose), unless they were trying to meet WR with minimum risk. A weak answer about almost as much chance of winning or losing $100.
I made a statement to the effect that what Megan did was the most blatantly obvious system of trying to meet her WR with minimum loss, so she could take as much bonus money from the casino as possible. No-one has submitted a sensible argument against that.

Let me make one thing crystal clear before I go on:-
I am on Megan's side! I want her to play bonuses. I want her to win. I want her and everyone else reading this to take casino bonuses and make the most they can out of them. Like I do!
But please be cleverer about how you do it!

But what some of you don't want to admit (for a reason I cannot fathom) are the following points:-

1) Zrap - in your quote above, you mention 'Contract' and 'Agreement'. Good! When each of us sign up to a casino we make a 'Contract' to 'agree' and abide by their T&C's. If we don't like their T&C's, we don't sign up!
2) Omni's T&C's say (similar to virtually EVERY other casino I've seen):-
Promotions are intended as a bonus to loyal players, and to attract new end users to Omni Casino. Omni Casino encourages end users to participate in promotions, but to refrain from abusing them. Any abuse of a promotion which comes to the attention of Omni Casino may result in the cancellation of that promotion and/or future promotions.
3) Megan's play was the most blatantly obvious 'bonus abuse' there is, so the casino was quite within it's right to cancel her current promotion.
4) Several of you see these bonuses as yours by right! The whole concept of any bonus is it has to be earned in some way. In the instance of online casino's, all they ask is you 'earn' it by playing the games in the spirit they were designed for - GAMBLING! I reckon that is very fair and extremely generous of them!
5) Some have said the casino 'reneged' on it's bet, or 'stole' from the player. Utter bollox! If anyone was trying to steal anything, it was the player trying to steal the bonus.

To answer your other points:
Do I know anything about gambling? Not a lot. Don't even know 'basic blakcjack strategy'. But I know it means taking risks, and having fun. I know that I gamble nearly every day. I know I never 'flat bet' any game. I know that I've made well over $10,000 profit from online casinos in the last 4 years.
I also know how to read and understand casino T&C's. I know what happens if I break those T&Cs. I know that I make sure I stick to what they expect from me.

Do I make ridiculous arguments? I don't know - you tell me. You seem to be expert at that.

Dell computers & cars? What's that got to do with the subject?
OK, here's one: You drive to work down the same street every day. It's a 30mph zone - you know because you often glance at the road sign as you go past at 50mph each day. One day a policeman stops you and books you for breaking the 'T&C's' of the road. What do you do - turn round and say "You can't book me - I've been driving down here at 50mph every day for years - so it must be OK...." :p

I'm not about to walk into a Vegas casino - they're 6,000 miles away!
I was fortunate enough to visit there in May this year - and when I did go in I didn't look at, or give a toss what other players were doing. I sat down, played my progressive game, won or lost some of my online casino profit, and went to bed with a big smile, having thoroughly enjoyed my gambling experience.

That's it. No more. Off to make some more profits.... :D
Good luck to all gamblers!
 
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I'd successfully stayed out of this one for so long, but just can't hold back any more ...

The whole concept of any bonus is it has to be earned in some way. In the instance of online casino's, all they ask is you 'earn' it by playing the games in the spirit they were designed for - GAMBLING!

You're right, the bonus must be earned before a player can withdraw it (or receive it, in Omni's specific case). However, I differ on your definitions of what "earn" and "gambling" are.

If a player plays at the casino, even flat-betting at blackjack, he or she is "gambling." Even flat-betting and playing perfect strategy with blackjack doesn't guarantee that they will make a profit on the bonus or, in fact, keep any part of it. They stand a chance (or "gamble") that they'll even lose all of their deposit.

If they meet the WR, however they do it, they've "earned" the bonus. They "gambled" and was lucky enough to keep any part, or all, of that bonus.

If Omni doesn't care for the player's style of "gambling," by all means tell her that she's restricted from receiving bonuses from this point on. However, she "earned" that last bonus by meeting Omni's current T&C of wagering $2500.
 
I NEVER said flat-betting isn't gambling. (I said it's not proper gambling - just my opinion).

I DID say it's the most obvious form of bonus abuse, which is why Omni invoked their clearly stated T&C's and withheld the bonus.

As you don't agree with this (as is completely your right), I would dearly love to hear YOUR definition of what a more obvious method of bonus abuse is?
Or anyone else for that matter!

Please tell me - I'm all ears!

Jeeeeeeze! Why do I bother?
Definitely my last word!
(I hate arguing!)

PS. Haven't heard from Megan for ages - I wonder if she knows what she started! ;)
PPS. I haven't played at Onmi myself since February 2003! :D
 
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Kasino King said:

"I really don't know why I'm bothering to type this.
There are some people posting here who would argue to the end of time that the world is flat."

Well maybe I can help.

"I asked in an earlier post if anyone knew a better way to meet a WR with minimum risk than by flat betting blackjack. No answer."

It depends on what you mean by risk. Over a long period of time changing your bet won't affect your risk at all. I often encourage newbies to experiment with various bet sizing techniques for fun. But it doesn't change expectation.

Over the universe of those at Omni that play negative progressions, and postivie progressions and flat bet, the results will be the same. Hense Omni doesn't care - or shouldn't.

It may interest you to know (and other long term players can confirm) that some casinos prefer flat betting to D'Alembert and have even put that in their terms that a D'Alembert was abusive. They are wrong, of course.

I hope this is the answer you wanted.

"I asked why would anyone want to flat-bet blackjack (where the odds dictate that on average they will always lose), unless they were trying to meet WR with minimum risk."

People often like to flat bet ... because they do. I observe flat betting to be very common. And some people get anxious when there bets rise and it is less enjoyable. That's because a short term fluctuation can really mess up an otherwise enjoyable session.

The other reason is that people like to track the fairness of the game. It is easier to do when you flat bet. If you alter the bet size than each bet size is a subset with its on deviation. Flat betting gives a truer picture of how well the game behaves.

"I made a statement to the effect that what Megan did was the most blatantly obvious system of trying to meet her WR with minimum loss, so she could take as much bonus money from the casino as possible. No-one has submitted a sensible argument against that."

What arguement do you want. What her motivation is or was is a matter of speculation. But no casino has ever published that flat betting is bonus abuse although some have published to the contrary. Some bonus hunters flat bet. Some recreational betters flat bet. Some bonus hunters vary their bets. Some recreational players vary their bets. Some keno players flat bet, I would say most do. Doesn't mean they are bonus hunters.

"I am on Megan's side!... But please be cleverer about how you do it!"

I am also. The real bonus abuse occurs with the casino. They make the offer and don't want to perform. There is no such thing as player bonus abuse other than fraud, and this isn't fraud.

" Omni's T&C's say (similar to virtually EVERY other casino I've seen):-
Promotions are intended as a bonus to loyal players, and to attract new end users to Omni Casino. Omni Casino encourages end users to participate in promotions, but to refrain from abusing the,. Any abuse of a promotion which comes to the attention of Omni Casino may result in the cancellation of that promotion and/or future promotions."

Yes. And there was no abuse. I encourage you to read the Gameday thread that Caruso linked for you. This is very similar to that. The casino made all kinds of allegations about player abuse - all bogus - none having to do with the bet size.

"Some have said the casino 'reneged' on it's bet, or 'stole' from the player. Utter bollox! If anyone was trying to steal anything, it was the player trying to steal the bonus."

The player can't steal the bonus. They have to perform certain task and Megen did. This is a reneg.

I know you have had some fair success and don't understand why other players don't emulate you. I ask that you set that aside. In the early days the players were much abused and it was only a coming together and mutual support that was able to bring some discipline to the world of online gaming. During that time players and watchdogs evolved certain principles. One of those is that once a player meets the bonus terms the have to be paid. Another is that vague clauses of bonus abuse are uneforceable and meaningless. It isn't wise to go backwards. If anything, we need to further raise the standards.

But read the thread Caruso provided. That's the rallying we need here.

Stanford.
 
Quote from KasinoKing: "I made a statement to the effect that what Megan did was the most blatantly obvious system of trying to meet her WR with minimum loss, so she could take as much bonus money from the casino as possible. No-one has submitted a sensible argument against that. Why should there be any argument at all against what Megan did. There's absolutely nothing wrong, dishonset, illegal, immoral or untoward in any manner shape or form. Megan won the money fair and square, period. After all isn't the idea of gambling to take as much money from the house as possible. If not, I missed something. Have a good one.
 
KK, your post is way off the mark. This is not new stuff here. That casino and player enter into a contract that both are bound to is an accepted fact of the business. The facts are simple and clear-cut, and "the spirit of the promotion" rogue casino double talk or the get-out clause "we reserve the right" - present in EVERY casino terms page but only ever actually invoked by rogues - adds nothing to the casino case.

The player played by the terms and the player should be paid. And the player WILL be paid. The casino will just have to decide how much flack it wants to take before paying.

I made a statement to the effect that what Megan did was the most blatantly obvious system of trying to meet her WR with minimum loss, so she could take as much bonus money from the casino as possible. No-one has submitted a sensible argument against that.

The statement is ludicrous and irrelevant. It doesn't require a "sensible answer".
 
zrap said:
Same thing just happened to me. They spam me every month with their bonus offers. This month I lost over $300 playing the $2500 needed only to be told they aren't going to honor the $100 after I played. I've spoken with them on the phone and those CS reps can do nothing about it. They don't respond to emails , even after the clerks on the phone tell you to email the promotions departement...

I also lost my whole deposit at Sands this month too. So maybe they can just refund both deposits in full ($835) instead of paying the $100 bonus.

Well there goes the "flatbetting lets you steel the bonus" arguement.

I am sorry to see this happen to you and hope you pitch a bitch with the CasinoMeister. I think you will get the bonus. I suspect many players will be cheated and not find there way here so won't be compensated.

Sirius is doing some good work here, so keep your chin up.

Stanford.
 
Kasino King...

I'VE FIGURED IT OUT!!!!

I've figured out why you are the only one left who doesn't "get it"!!!!

Your post a little while ago explained it all!! Man I'm glad we figured out the problem and I'm thrilled to solve your misunderstandings!

Here goes. You quoted from their web

2) Omni's T&C's say (similar to virtually EVERY other casino I've seen):-
Promotions are intended as a bonus to loyal players, and to attract new end users to Omni Casino. Omni Casino encourages end users to participate in promotions, but to refrain from abusing them. Any abuse of a promotion which comes to the attention of Omni Casino may result in the cancellation of that promotion and/or future promotions



The problem with your argument is that there was NO BONUS ABUSE !!!
Even if Megan deposited $50 every month and played 2500 $1 hands of BJ every month and then cashed out ...THATS NOT ABUSE!
It obviously isn't smart to play that way and the casino shure wouldn't like it but it isn't abuse.

Now if Megan played 2500 $1 hands of pass/don't pass on the craps table. That is BONUS ABUSE as she broke their detailed terms and conditions and they would have the right to refuse the bonus.

Now if they had a line in their terms saying No craps, roulette, baccarat, on flat betting on blackjack. Then Megan would indeed be guilty of BONUS ABUSE and not entiltled to the adverstised bonus.

KK, you are thinking like all the scumbag RTG casinos think, any type of betting that they don't like they feel the right to claim it abusive. Even slot players are sometimes accused of bonus abuse just for winning while getting a bonus.
 
zrap said:
Kasino King...
Now if Megan played 2500 $1 hands of pass/don't pass on the craps table. That is BONUS ABUSE as she broke their detailed terms and conditions and they would have the right to refuse the bonus.
.
You can't abuse a bonus you have not received. :)
 
In defense of KK I think he is saying that stupid advantage players could threaten the income stream of many players on this forum if casinos pull their bonuses. Therefore why should we defend this apparently selfish behaviour.

I don't subscribe to this theory because if everyone played sensibly there would be no bonuses offered anyway.

The whole bonus system depends on stupid players. Bring em on I say.

The casinos can always selectively bar stupid players from bonuses whilst still trying to get a competitive edge over their rivals.

Obviously I agree bonuses should not be withdrawn after the event or not given when all technical requirements have been met.

Mitch

"win don't gamble"
 

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