NE hacked, CON wont repay me although they got my money($4700)

[chris_d]

Hello, Im new here at Casinomeister but has been recommended to post this here by a friend, he also said that you who are Casinomeister might even be able to help me. If so I would be very thankful, i am trying everything. I am not a high stake gambler and this money I worked hard for at the poker tables and I am the least to say, very sad about this whole situation. But i leave it at that, i dont want this to be a cry letter trying you all to feel sry for me.

What has happened is that someone hacked into my Neteller account (Neteller has confirmed that fraud has taken place and Casino on net=CON does not dispute this). The hacker opened an account in my name, my address, phone number etc he had from NE. He managed to do this although i already had an account at CON. At the casino they told me that there was no breach in the security but I think that it was a big breach. This is what CON says about multiple accounts:

At all times, you may only have one account, for which you will register using your own, correct name. You may not access the Software or use the Service by means of another person's account. Should you attempt to open more than one account, under your own name or under any other name, or should you attempt to use the Service by means of any other person's account we will be entitled to immediately close all your accounts and bar you from future use of the Service."

He made two deposits into CON for a total sum of $4700. At first he tried to withdraw my money but after being denied(i assume) he decided to gamble it away. CON means since he lost the money in their casino there is nothing they can do.

This is their "decision":
"The funds where deposited played and lost in the same day
As such, no funds have been cashed out. All where lost on the tables.
As my colleagues have previously informed you. Unfortunately, Kristian
we cannot accept responsibility. I respectfully advise that you contact
Neteller directly or alternatively contact your local Law enforcement
agency to resolve this matter.

Thank you for your time and I sincerely apologise for any inconvenience
this may have caused you.

Kind regards,
John.D
Operation Department
Cassava (Gibraltar) Ltd.
[email protected]"

From my point of view i dont really see what different it makes if the person lost my money gambling in their casino or tried to withdraw(his account has been locked/closed btw) and the money would still be in "his" account. Either way the casino got my money.

I am very surprised by CON:s position here. The big winner is obviously CON themselves, i dont think for one second if the person actually would have won money they let me withdraw the deposits and winnings to my account. They dont deny they have gotten my money from a person who comitted fraud but they seem to be happy taken it anyway. They are a big casino and wouldnt lose a dime on paying me back, isnt there one ounc of ethic in the casino business?

Sidenote: The hacker also made a deposit of 1700 into another Casino/Pokerroom but there it seems like they will pay me back. He lost the money in the casino there too, and they are also a much smaller casino/pokerroom than CON. I will update on how this goes hopefully tomorow cuase I will talk to the manager then.

/Chris

 

[vinylweatherman]

Legal

It depends on which party was negligent in the matter, Neteller, the casino, or both.

You are on good legal grounds, as this is NOT a gambling debt, but a crime. If the money exists, and can be recovered, they are legally bound to return. In law, stolen items belong to the original owner, even if the current owner obtained them in good faith. This often happens with cars. A car can be seized if it was stolen, even if the current owner bought it in good faith from a dealer.
The casino currently "owns" the money, as it was stolen, the casino should pay it back to Neteller to the amount of the original fraudulent transaction. Any winnings would be void of course, as this was not a valid transaction.

You are better off contacting Neteller, but also the regulators of Neteller. This will depend on where you are resident. Currently, Neteller itself is based in the IOM, so would be regulated there overall. For UK residents, Neteller UK is also regulated by the UK FSA. It is worth informing them even if you cannot claim, as the fact that this fraud type is even possible is a serious matter and needs to be looked at. You will need to provide proof from Neteller about the admission that they have identified fraud, the word of a player on it's own will not be enough as there will be the concern that the complaint itself is just an attempt at getting money out of a casino.

If you are to post any E-mails to back up your story, remember to remove any personal information from it and just leave the general text.

You can also try the "Pitch a Bitch" service here with regard to the stance taken by the casino, which incidentally has been "Rogued" here for an unrelated matter to do with "site scraping" and issues of copyright infringement.

 

[Mousey]

How many people is it, so far, that I have seen posting about ID theft, theft from NETeller and then the stolen money deposited to poker rooms?

How is this happening? Key loggers? Where? When? Who? This is really creeping me out.

 

[Slotster!]

Good point Mousey!

Chris - sorry to hear about this! Have you got any ideas as to how this might've happened? Was it malicious software or something else?

It would be useful as Mousey says if we could be doing something to stop it happening! Thanks in advance!

 

[silcnlayc]

It is a very scary thing to happen especially when it is through a poker site (Paradise Poker was where I got caught with a keylogger) and Neteller which is a very tightly held site where this is where my funds were trying to be with drawn also.

I was one of the lucky ones I guess for I was notified when I tried to make a deposit that I was DECLINED which raised a red flag and I went to check my account and sure nough...large sums were being requested from my account but they didn't get a dime out of my Neteller for it was declined due to a note posted in my account saying anything over a certain amount, do not honor. I made sure that it was posted even BIGGER on my account after this fiasco.

I took the advice of this forum,thank you guys! and wiped my hardrive clean and I haven't had another problem since. I do not go to ANY poker site now at all for this is where I think and almost know 99.9% that it originated from.

 

[chris_d]

Chris - sorry to hear about this! Have you got any ideas as to how this might've happened? Was it malicious software or something else?

I have no idea how this happend. And I only have the password in my head, not even wrote it down at home. I got a 2month new computer, new antivirus and a firewall as well... I dont really know who to blame here but one thing thats sure is that my money is missing, theres been a crime and I know for sure that the money is in the casinos.

 

[Linus]

Mousey - There have been A LOT of cases of internet fraud lately. I've closed my Firepay account and withdrew most of the funds I had had in Neteller. I asked them to disable their "Instant Deposit" feature - which debits your checking account, whether you have funds in it or not - and I keep the checking acct that's linked to Neteller zeroed out. That's all I really know to do. It's inconvenient, but better than having money stolen.


Chris - If Casino On Net knows your money was stolen, but plans to keep it anyway, that's completely unjustifiable. Doesn't mean they won't do it anyway.

 

[Scooter7]

It depends on which party was negligent in the matter, Neteller, the casino, or both.

You are on good legal grounds, as this is NOT a gambling debt, but a crime. If the money exists, and can be recovered, they are legally bound to return. In law, stolen items belong to the original owner, even if the current owner obtained them in good faith.

(other excellent points snipped for brevity)

You would be 100% correct about having good legal grounds, but which ground would you recommend taking legal action on?

This highlights a difficult aspect of the regulatory game that will eventually need to be sorted out. There is nowhere to take legal action against anyone. The casino's comments about talking to law enforcement are laughable since the casino knows damn well that there isn't a cop or a court in the world that they have to listen to.

They don't care about everyone's concerns over site scraping, why should they have to care about one player who has no legal leverage against them?

Question...If you couldn't get arrested no matter what you did....what would you do???

Some casinos make up a new answer for that question every day

 

[vinylweatherman]

Better here though.

This case is a little better though.

Neteller are regulated in the Isle of Man AND in the UK by the FSA. If Neteller refuses to pursue this matter, complaints and action can be taken in these places. Neteller really should be the first port of call, and should refer this to their security department, and you should zero the account (if not already done) in case further attempts are made.

If CON are at fault through allowing unauthorised access to your account, then action would be taken in Gibraltar against Cassava, who are regulated by the Gibraltean gaming authorities to run their TWO casinos. Casino-on-net and Reef Club.

The account transaction history will show the deposits being made, however, the casino will probably have been logging IP addresses, and this could show that the fraudulent transactions have a distinct internet footprint from the genuine ones.

Formal letters of complaint to Cassava and Neteller is the first step, possibly through a solicitor as they will likely know you are deadly serious about this. This can be followed by a formal complaint to the Gibraltean and Manx authorities who regulate these businesses.

It is unlikely that either will allow the dispute to linger to the next step, which could be humiliation in the courts at what is a very sensitive time for the industry. Indeed, with sufficient evidence that the casino is aware of the money having been stolen, they could find themselves on the receiving end of a police raid to recover the stolen funds and documentary evidence. This would come out of the blue for them, and they will have no time to cover their a***s!

 

[jetset]

Chris, I would suggest your first step is to submit a PAB (Pitch a Bitch) here.

The Casinomeister is back from leave next week and he has excellent contacts with Neteller and CON which will enable him to confirm the facts, find out how this took place and seek a fair conclusion.

If the 'Meister has no success, then consider the Gibraltar jurisdictional authorities and a formal claim against Neteller.

 

[GrandMaster]

I believe there is English case law relating to people betting with money not belonging to them, this may even be applicable in Gibraltar.

 

[mitch]

Strange fraud this!

A hacker manages to break into someones Neteller account.

This account has thousands of dollars in it. The hacker to benefit must have a way of diverting this money to himself.

Apparently, we are being asked to believe, he doesn't bother doing this but opens up an account at a casino the account holder already has an account at!

Why would he do this? If he intended to deposit then somehow withdraw to a separate account of his own why would he not choose a new casino?

Quite difficult to open 2 accounts at the same casino using exactly the same identity details. Good trick that. Anybody here ever managed it?

Something not quite right in the state of Denmark!

Mitch

 

[WagerWitch]

First - it is a legal issue.

Take it up with your local Police Department or State Law Enforcement Agency.

They will begin a search to attempt a locate on the person hacking your information. If it is found to be across state or country lines it becomes a Federal Matter - which will include the FBI.

IF you are 100% in the right - that is a lot of money.

Start with the legal law enforcement angle - and provide them the correct contact numbers. Advise the Casino/Poker Room that you give them permission to discuss your case - and Advise Neteller the exact same thing.

From that point you will have more of a legal leg to stand on.

Theft and identity theft are becoming a major problem - and there are task forces to deal with it.

If you are in the right - and you have the law enforcement investigation to clear you and the transactions, with the assistance of Neteller - you should have your money back in no time.

 

[Linus]

Well, internet gambling is illegal in the US. So getting help from the police is going to be a longshot, at best.

Second, CON has already said the money deposited at Casino On Net was stolen. Their position is, they don't care. So even if the got the police involved, there's nothing they can do about it. Casino On Net - like all internet casinos - is beyond the reach of American law. Since they know that, they they could care less whether he contacts the police.

Third, as far as "legal legs" are concerned, there are no legal legs for Americans to stand on. That's why it's so important for Americans to know that, before they get involved in online gambling. Perhaps if Chris lived on the Isle of Man, or Gibraltar, he might be able to turn to his courts. But he doesn't.


Mitch -

Quite difficult to open 2 accounts at the same casino using exactly the same identity details. Good trick that. Anybody here ever managed it?

I've never tried to open two accounts at the same casino - since it's prohibited at most, if not all of them - as it is at Casino On Net.

However, as any number of threads on this forum prove up, casinos are primarily concerned with "identity details" when it comes to processing withdrawals.

When it comes to deposits, I doubt they care one wit about identity details.

 

[GrandMaster]

Location: Arvika. There is an Arvika in Sweden, if that where chris_d is, the legality or otherwise of online gambling in the US is irrelevant.

 

[Linus]

Oops, sorry. I have no idea about Swedish law - although I suspect it's safe to say it doesn't appy to Gibraltar, anymore than the American kind does.

 

[WagerWitch]

Well, internet gambling is illegal in the US. So getting help from the police is going to be a longshot, at best.

Actually - the issue is not gambling - although the end product was gambling.


The issue of concern is someone using a Neteller account hacking to forge credit usage from one point to another point.

That is a crime. A Federal Crime.

Prove that first - then rebut with the casino.

If Neteller is agreeing that the account was hacked - Neteller should be liable for the losses. Just my way of thinking.

However, it is a crime - regardless of the legality of gambling. (Which, only WA has managed to make online gambling illegal, to the best of my knowledge.)

 

[bb1webs]

Hi,

not being a lawyer, I can't say what legal grounds you have/not: but I do know right from wrong.

CON has the position of reputation to consider and the resources to easily absorb this since when you get down to it; the money they'd be returning was lost to them anyway.

However CON has and continues to prove what kind of integrity they have, thus it is unlikely they will ever make things right unless excessive pressure is put on them and even then I don't know if they'd cave. I recall a player at Pacific had a similar situation only that player had even went to the trouble to contact CON and request a freeze on the account until such time that a full investigation could be done. a short time later the player logged back into the account (which to my understanding shouldn't have been possible if it was frozen) ... only to find out that the remaining money had also been taken. Come to think of it ... I think I read about that incident here at CM.

What boggles my mind over that and now this incident is that CON can easily afford to make things right; protecting a casino's most important aspect: its integrity. Yet CON seemingly has no concern about how it is viewed by the public.

Their actions or rather inactions speak volumes to me.

I truly hope you get things worked out. If I were you I'd concentrate on the NETeller angle and of course never patronize CON again.

 

[haddddock]

I have to agree with bb1webs although for slightly different reasons.

NETeller guarantees its merchants against fraud and charges a premium for doing so. Your best bet will be to convince NETeller that these funds were fraudulently removed from your account and seek compensation from them.

Hope it turns out for you

 

[jetset]

Chris_d have you submitted a PAB yet?

 

[mitch]

Chris_d have you submitted a PAB yet?

This bloke, having told a tale of real mystery and intrigue, hasn't even bothered to visit the forum since 16/06/06!

Mitch

 

[chris_d]

I have to agree with bb1webs although for slightly different reasons.

NETeller guarantees its merchants against fraud and charges a premium for doing so. Your best bet will be to convince NETeller that these funds were fraudulently removed from your account and seek compensation from them.

Hope it turns out for you

Okej, but Neteller also have protection againt this:
11.2. It is your responsibility to keep your Account identification, secure identification, password, security questions and answers and other information specific to your Account confidential and in a safe and secure place. Should another person gain access to your Account by passing all identification and security validation and verification checks, we are entitled to treat any transaction conducted by that person as valid and authorised by you and are not responsible for any loss or damage you may incur as a result.
I thought I had some kind of insurance but i guess not... But if I cant get my money back from Neteller and they cant protect it, then I would say that Neteller is useless.

Chris_d have you submitted a PAB yet?

Maybe I should try that even if CON is on the list: dont bother. Cant find PAB now, mabye its closed for the moment?

This was the answer I got from CON today:
"Please note that the new Casino On net account was registered with the
same details as your other Casino On Net and Pacific Poker account.
Additionally the same payment method was used to deposit, and a very
similar email address. Therefore there was no way for us to now that
this account was not set up by you.

In addition, if your Neteller account details have been stolen by a
person unknown to you, then this is an issue that you must take up with
Neteller. This is in no way our responsibility.

I am afraid that further correspondence with us will only evoke the same
response, and we now consider this matter closed. No further
correspondence in this issue will be entered into."

There is two things I just dont understand. First it seems to be 100% okey to open as many accounts as you like as long as you just deposite money and then lose it in the casino. The other thing is that they take my money without even think about it. This is stolen money and they know that the money doesnt belong to them.

btw mitch I have looked at this post 2-3times a day but havent logged in.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Legal

Okej, but Neteller also have protection againt this:
11.2. It is your responsibility to keep your Account identification, secure identification, password, security questions and answers and other information specific to your Account confidential and in a safe and secure place. Should another person gain access to your Account by passing all identification and security validation and verification checks, we are entitled to treat any transaction conducted by that person as valid and authorised by you and are not responsible for any loss or damage you may incur as a result.
I thought I had some kind of insurance but i guess not... But if I cant get my money back from Neteller and they cant protect it, then I would say that Neteller is useless.


Maybe I should try that even if CON is on the list: dont bother. Cant find PAB now, mabye its closed for the moment?

This was the answer I got from CON today:
"Please note that the new Casino On net account was registered with the
same details as your other Casino On Net and Pacific Poker account.
Additionally the same payment method was used to deposit, and a very
similar email address. Therefore there was no way for us to now that
this account was not set up by you.

In addition, if your Neteller account details have been stolen by a
person unknown to you, then this is an issue that you must take up with
Neteller. This is in no way our responsibility.

I am afraid that further correspondence with us will only evoke the same
response, and we now consider this matter closed. No further
correspondence in this issue will be entered into."

There is two things I just dont understand. First it seems to be 100% okey to open as many accounts as you like as long as you just deposite money and then lose it in the casino. The other thing is that they take my money without even think about it. This is stolen money and they know that the money doesnt belong to them.

btw mitch I have looked at this post 2-3times a day but havent logged in.

Their argument is that they took the money in good faith, and believed at the time it was you opening a second account. They may have actually put their foot in it though. If the terms state that multiple accounts are not permitted, then you can argue that they would never have paid if you had won, and thus all wagers are null and void.
I am not sure this is necessarily the case at Cryptologic though, it would depend on demonstrating that they would never have honoured a payment. If this other account was given a bonus, this would strengthen the case, as they would most likely have voided play due to "bonus abuse" if the fraudulemt accout had won.

It is worth looking into how the deposit was made, such as which IP address, and who registered the other E-mail address. Neteller is supposed to check on E-mail addresses, as well as other information, however, deposits at Intercasino are through the E-cash interface, not Neteller.
If they believe the account to belong to you, they should have no problem in giving you all the details so that you may launch a "police" investigation into what is a serious crime. If they claim confidentiality to the account holder, they are implying they know it is not your account, which makes them aware of receiving stolen money.

With Bryan now back, get a PAB in.

 

[bpb]

Devil's Advocate here

If CON returns these funds, then anyone could do the following

1) Give a friend who likes across the country, or preferably, on the other side of the world, the necessary info to transfer $10,000 to the casino from Neteller. That friend does this from an internet cafe or other anonymous location.

2) That friend gambles like a madman to try to hit $50,000 or bust. If he hits $50,000, he withdraws, and you split the profit.

3) If you go busto, the original account holder contacts the casino after a few days and claims fraud. Any investigation into the play will reveal that it took place many thousands of miles away, and that the gambling pattern was very erratic and consistent with a nutjob hacker blowing 10 grand in an effort to screw over the original account holder.

If the casino pays out, it gives scammers a freeroll at making a large score. Casinos need to protect themselves from fraud, and the only way to do so, is unfortunately, to take a hard line stance in instances like this. It sucks when someone gets legititimately hacked and taken to the cleaners, but ultimately it is up to the individual to protect their online finances.


The argument that "The money was lost directly to the casino so they're not losing anything by giving it back" just isn't true.

 

[Linus]

It's important for people who use Neteller, or who play at casinos, to realize this could happen to you. If you wake up one morning, and your Neteller is cleaned out, it's likely you'll have little recourse. The casinos - too many of them - are located in Costa Rico and other places specifically chosen to be beyond the reach of the law. So when a casino gets tired of talking, it can simply say, "We now consider this matter closed."


bpb - you know, as well as I do - if you know anything about the casino industry - that Casino On Net would never let your friendly madman cashout. They would "notice" the duplicate account, and promptly confiscate the winnings.

CON's policies are all about freerolling on stolen money, and nothing whatsoever to do with protecting itself.

You are right, though, that players must protect themselves, when it comes to online gambling.

 

[bpb]

See below

 

[bpb]

bpb - you know, as well as I do - if you know anything about the casino industry - that Casino On Net would never let your friendly madman cashout. They would "notice" the duplicate account, and promptly confiscate the winnings.

Who said anything about duplicate accounts? Your accomplice is playing on your account, just from a different IP. I've never heard of a non-rogue casino refusing a cashout because they did a traceroute on the IP and saw that the play originated from a different city/state/country from your home address.


In my opinion, this is very much about a casino protecting itself. But it has been made very clear to me by many posters that I know absolutely nothing about the casino industry

 

[dominique]

Devil's Advocate here

If CON returns these funds, then anyone could do the following

1) Give a friend who likes across the country, or preferably, on the other side of the world, the necessary info to transfer $10,000 to the casino from Neteller. That friend does this from an internet cafe or other anonymous location.

2) That friend gambles like a madman to try to hit $50,000 or bust. If he hits $50,000, he withdraws, and you split the profit.

3) If you go busto, the original account holder contacts the casino after a few days and claims fraud. Any investigation into the play will reveal that it took place many thousands of miles away, and that the gambling pattern was very erratic and consistent with a nutjob hacker blowing 10 grand in an effort to screw over the original account holder.

If the casino pays out, it gives scammers a freeroll at making a large score. Casinos need to protect themselves from fraud, and the only way to do so, is unfortunately, to take a hard line stance in instances like this. It sucks when someone gets legititimately hacked and taken to the cleaners, but ultimately it is up to the individual to protect their online finances.


The argument that "The money was lost directly to the casino so they're not losing anything by giving it back" just isn't true.

While I am anything but a friend of 888, I have to agree with this.

 

[jetset]

chris_d: I repeat - submit a PAB and Bryan will use his senior contacts at Neteller to confirm this and find out exactly what happened. He needs the PAB from you authorising his involvement before he can act, and this could be a fast route to putting this matter to rights once and for all.

888.com may claim that they will not enter into correspondence with you, but they are required to respond to eCOGRA if you submit a complaint to the Fair Gaming Advocate, so that avenue of exploring a solution is still open, too.

Then there is the 888.com licensing jurisdiction, which fortunately is one of the better ones and will give you a hearing.

Start with the 'Meister and work your way down the list until you have cracked this.

 

[bb1webs]

Hi all,

silcnlayc, you said

they didn't get a dime out of my Neteller for it was declined due to a note posted in my account saying anything over a certain amount, do not honor.

so I wrote NETeller requesting the same, here is what I received back

I believe the only thing we can do is to lower your Instacash Limit so there would be a lower limit that can be withdrawn from your account.

Thanks

Joe Bella
Account Representative

VIP Member Services

could you please tell me how you went about putting a "note" on your account to limit withdrawals?

thanks in advance.

 

[bb1webs]

... just wanted to add that neteller's response made little sense to me.

to what extent does limiting my instacash amounts protect the amount that a hacker could withdraw from money already in the account?

further to worry me is now I realize even if I keep my balance at a small amount; that apparently the hacker could use the instacash option to steal money from me that I don't even have in the account.

 

[silcnlayc]

In another thread I explained what happened (can't remember which thread) when I contacted all individuals concerned about the attempted breach on my Neteller account.

First, I changed my passcode and closed my Neteller account (called them personallyand e-mailed them) and told them to keep it closed until further notice (which they did for about a week)

Then I wiped my hardrive clean

Then I called Neteller and spoke PERSONALLY on the phone and by e-mail (always get it in writing the meister says) to a CS and had them MANUALLY write in my account under no certain terms will anything above a certain limit be honored.

Called them back 2 days later and requested them to check my account (testing them) to see if anything was posted and they read verbatim what I told them to write and asked them to edit this and put another limit down which they said they would.

Called another few days and asked again if any notice was posted on my account and they again said yes..and told me what was there.

So, I know they will post a notice on the account for I checked and double checked and they passed with flying colors. I also spoke with DIFFERENT CS's every time including the fraud department.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Devils advocate part 2

Devil's Advocate here

If CON returns these funds, then anyone could do the following

1) Give a friend who likes across the country, or preferably, on the other side of the world, the necessary info to transfer $10,000 to the casino from Neteller. That friend does this from an internet cafe or other anonymous location.

2) That friend gambles like a madman to try to hit $50,000 or bust. If he hits $50,000, he withdraws, and you split the profit.

3) If you go busto, the original account holder contacts the casino after a few days and claims fraud. Any investigation into the play will reveal that it took place many thousands of miles away, and that the gambling pattern was very erratic and consistent with a nutjob hacker blowing 10 grand in an effort to screw over the original account holder.

If the casino pays out, it gives scammers a freeroll at making a large score. Casinos need to protect themselves from fraud, and the only way to do so, is unfortunately, to take a hard line stance in instances like this. It sucks when someone gets legititimately hacked and taken to the cleaners, but ultimately it is up to the individual to protect their online finances.


The argument that "The money was lost directly to the casino so they're not losing anything by giving it back" just isn't true.

The owner is not the ONLY one responsible, the casino, or more likely a crooked employee, may also be able to gather enough information to extract a deposit from Neteller. In the casino interface, both Neteller account and PIN are used, this is enough to deposit at a casino, the Neteller passcode is not needed, and the Instacash digits are only needed if instacash is to be used.

With the number of "accidents" that happen with Neteller, they really need to start taking this seriously and invest in a redundancy algorithm or two, the main one needed is for preventing multiple withdrawals from taking place when errors occur at the merchant/casino banking interface.

If deposits are made by credit card, this would not be a problem as the card company would cover the funds in the event of fraud - it'll cost the casinos more, but it is one way players can protect themselves in an environment somewhat free of protection.
If the situation worsens to the extent that the financial security of online gambling is exposed as worthless, casinos risk scaring away all but the most "professional" of gamblers.

 

[Linus]

... just wanted to add that neteller's response made little sense to me.

to what extent does limiting my instacash amounts protect the amount that a hacker could withdraw from money already in the account?

It doesn't. But it does protect your bank account. Also, it keeps them from bouncing checks off your account, which could create even more problems.

further to worry me is now I realize even if I keep my balance at a small amount; that apparently the hacker could use the instacash option to steal money from me that I don't even have in the account.

Yes. That's why you need to make Neteller disable the "Instacash" feature.

Credit cards would be infinitely better - since you're protected against fraud if you use a credit card. But you can't use a credit card if you're an American.

 

[Linus]

bpb - Casino On Net accepted the deposit, declined the withdraw, but allowed the hacker to gamble away all the money he had stolen.

The only one freerolling in this situation is the casino.

 

[bpb]

bpb - Casino On Net accepted the deposit, declined the withdraw, but allowed the hacker to gamble away all the money he had stolen.

The only one freerolling in this situation is the casino.

I have no idea how anything you are saying relates to my post. Did you read what I wrote?

 

[Linus]

If your post doesn't relate to this thread, I have no idea why you posted it.

 

[WagerWitch]

I will just reiterate:

It's a legal issue. Someone using your credit card - for whatever purpose - without your permission is a POLICE Matter.

Directly go to your police department and hand them all the necessary paperwork to show the transactions. Provide them with the information from Neteller - and the Casino.

If you're not willing to go to the Police Department, then chances are you are SOL on getting any return.

Sorry - but that's the thick and thin of it.

In the division I work in, we see an average of 3 - 5 fraudulent credit card actions occur every month. I live in a small town. So - I'm assuming with a larger population - you will have more points of theft.

If you're not willing to report the theft - then you will have to suffer the consequences.

If it is illegal to gamble in your area and you are breaking the law - then those are consequences you will have to deal with as well.

IF you want gambling to be legal in your area - then make the effort to contact your representatives and change the laws or advise them how you choose to have them vote.

Those are your choices - and I'm afraid the casino is 100% in the right.

 

[chris_d]

Yes, I have allready talked to the police and hopefully they will start the investigation soon. Gambling is not illigal here in Sweden so thats no problem. But was is the next step if the confirm that this is fraud but they can´t get the thief? Am I totaly lost then? Is my only hope to see if the police can catch the thief here?

Some how this case feel so wierd, neteller can´t keep my (or somebody elses) money safe, CON and Betcris(the other gamingsite who have $1700) take stolen money and at least CON don´t consider for one second of giving the money back. And then this security that they say has no breach what so ever, then how is it possible to open two accounts in the same name? Sorry for whining about this but the fact is that $6400 is gone, and it looks like I won´t get it back...

 

[Linus]

Chris, I hope the police can do something for you. Unfortunately, 888 is based in Gibraltar, not Sweden. I am glad, though, to hear that Betcris did the right thing.

Since you're in Sweden, where it's legal - you ought to consider using a credit card from now on. (If you decide to keep gambling.) The great thing about a credit card, is that you're not responsible for unauthorized charges.

If you'd used a credit card, Casino On Net would not have been in position to blow you off, the way they have.

 

[Linus]

WagerWitch - you might consider making your disclaimer on your website a little more prominent.

Wager Witch accepts NO liability for any losses you may incur from using the information or links provided on this or any website. Use at your own risk!

You wouldn't want people to think it's safe to play at the casinos you promote, just because you promote them. Especially considering the casinos you're affiliated with.

 

[spearmaster]

WagerWitch - you might consider making your disclaimer on your website a little more prominent.

You wouldn't want people to think it's safe to play at the casinos you promote, just because you promote them. Especially considering the casinos you're affiliated with.

That was uncalled for, Linus. Not only is your post off topic, she didn't ask for your opinion of her site.

 

[WagerWitch]

WagerWitch - you might consider making your disclaimer on your website a little more prominent.



You wouldn't want people to think it's safe to play at the casinos you promote, just because you promote them. Especially considering the casinos you're affiliated with.

ROFLMAO!!

Nah - It's quite alright Spear.

I choose which casinos offer Freebies mostly - and a few that offer good incentives. That's the ones I've enjoyed.

I make no guarantees that anyone is going to win - just that those casinos are offering deals that might be fun for online players.

So far - I haven't found any horrid items from them... YET - and IF I should, I'll pull them.

I happen to have liked the way I've been treated by the casino reps - the cashouts and the way they've handled me personally.

However - if you've got some skinny you want to share - please, by all means - without addressing it here on the CasinoMeister Forum - feel free to PM me or drop me a line. I'm all about learning, understanding and listening.

But if you're just being rude well then you can KMA.



And I don't accept responsibility for anyone else's gambling choices... Just like Jack Daniel's doesn't accept responsibility for idiotic people driving drunk after consuming Alcohol. I do promote responsible gaming - and have an article, specifically aimed at that.

If ya have an issue with me - PM me - don't be a snark on the boards.

 

[Linus]

Joyland & Casino Classic were the ones I was thinking of, but Maxima probably ought to be included in there as well.

I bugs me that - too often - players can't rely on affiliates to recommend good, reliable casinos, but we can - too often - rely on them to take the casino's side in a dispute.

Please don't think I'm specifically talking about you. It's just that your disclaimer struck me as a particularly egregious example. If you (2nd-person, plural) can't stand behind your casinos - I have to ask - why are you promoting them?

Anyway, I don't mean to derail the thread. I still think that Casino On Net can't - or at least shouldn't - get away with taking deposits willy-nilly from anyone with a debit card number, no matter how ill-gotten, while simultaneously waiting for a withdrawal, before performing any security. What it shows is that they don't care where the money's coming from, as long as it's coming in, and that the only security they're interested in, is its own.

I'm not just arguing it's immoral - which it is. Or that it's hypocritical.

It's also bad business. When (if) America gets serious about stopping CON, and other offshore operations, from soliciting Americans, these kinds of things will be part of the reason why it happens.

 

[WagerWitch]

Could you PM or email me your reasons why you believe those companies should be rogued?

I don't see them listed here nor did I find any complaints based on them - anywhere.

If you have information of a specific nature that includes Joyland, Casino Classic or Maxima - I would certainly like to be in the know.

However, as I have said - I haven't found negs on them that would discredit them on a massive basis (for example Golden Palace type of stuff, Mapau stuff, etc.)

If you have firm evidence in hand and/or can point me in the direction of those particular casinos having treated multiple players innappropriately - then I'd certainly love to hear it.

wagerwitchad at yahoo dot com is a good addy for me checked at least every other day.

I will admit those casinos that you've listed have treated me fairly, with excellent customer service and I have not found them in the negatives either here or through google.

I stand by my disclaimer - I'm not responsible for your choices in casinos.

If you click on a link - either at my site or any other link - I'm not going to take responsibility for your actions.

I also expect every player to read the TCs and to understand that the casinos are out to make a buck and the players are out to win... And I know there are cheaters on both sides.

So with that said - AGAIN - if you have direct information... not heresay... share it. I'm interested.

EDITED: Noted Joyland in Rogue Casino Listing - Will remove Joyland from my list - I obviously missed that one. It will take 24-48 hours to remove it - tho - just letting you know haven't been able to get into Blogspot for 4 hours - sometimes they go down... Sigh...

 

[WagerWitch]

If you (2nd-person, plural) can't stand behind your casinos - I have to ask - why are you promoting them?

Uhm... Linus... Affiliates are out to make monies based on players sent to the casinos and based on the amount of clicks per link, and... based on amounts wagered against amounts won.

So basically affiliates are there to make money by sending customers to the casinos.

They are nothing more than billboards.

I hope most of us are responsible billboards - but we are not responsible for the speeders on the highway... Yanno?

And No - I don't take it personally. There are few places such as CasinoMeister, GoneGambling that have enough following to get deals on advertisement space... and not per customer brought in.

I take it you don't know what affiliate agreements are and stuff? If you'd like I'd gladly teach you or share with you what info I have - just email the addy above and I promise to answer that which I can.

Luckymeki
WagerWitch

PS - Now - Back to the thread - LMAO - carry on.... *Grin*

 

[vinylweatherman]

Neteller

Chris, I hope the police can do something for you. Unfortunately, 888 is based in Gibraltar, not Sweden. I am glad, though, to hear that Betcris did the right thing.

Since you're in Sweden, where it's legal - you ought to consider using a credit card from now on. (If you decide to keep gambling.) The great thing about a credit card, is that you're not responsible for unauthorized charges.

If you'd used a credit card, Casino On Net would not have been in position to blow you off, the way they have.

Seems CON have got it in for Neteller users! They also have huge WR on anything they get compared with Credit card users, yet with Neteller they can't suffer chargebacks, this is all back to front! Maybe they have had this experience before with a lot of Neteller fraud compared to credit card fraud.

With these two factors in mind, it would seem best to only use credit cards here, or not play at all. This will cost them more in the long run, as US players find it hard to use cards, and European players have their cards debited in Dollars, costing extra. No wonder they have to advertise on the Urinals at Motorway services (Taking the P*** no doubt ).

 

[Linus]

Uhm... Linus... Affiliates are out to make monies based on players sent to the casinos and based on the amount of clicks per link, and... based on amounts wagered against amounts won.

So basically affiliates are there to make money by sending customers to the casinos.

They are nothing more than billboards.

Well, many of them are billboards, but they'd be insulted if you called them that.

 

[chris_d]

Hello. I PAB for about 2month ago and havent heard anything. I must say that Im very disapointed. I have sent like 3-4 reminder mails to casinomeister also sent a few private massages. He doesnt reply to anything and I wrote that its okay for me if he dont have the time but at least tell it to me. The police havent started their inverstigation yet and it feels like it is almost to late to do anything. I have already realized that I wont see the money again but offcourse I still hoping for a solution...
Casinomeister if you read this please tell me your decision in this case.

 

[frufrugirl]

It is a very scary thing to happen especially when it is through a poker site (Paradise Poker was where I got caught with a keylogger) and Neteller which is a very tightly held site where this is where my funds were trying to be with drawn also.


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