1. Follow Casinomeister on Twitter | Facebook | YouTube | Casinomeister.us US Residents Click here! |  Svenska Svenska | 
  2. By continuing to use the site, you agree to the use of cookies. You can find out more by following.Find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Sister site to Casino Max launches

    Roaring 21 has just launched - sister casino to Casino Max, and they have a special promotion for you!! .They are in the Baptism by Fire - you can check them out here: Roaring 21 BBF and special promo.


    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice

BGO Exclusive Promo: 25 free spins with No Wagering on Archangels Salvation

Get Up to 25 free spins on Archangels: Salvation
No wagering requirements and No Max Win cap!

New Depositing players ONLY.
Dismiss Notice
REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do diddly squat without having been registered!

At the moment you have limited access to view most discussions: you can't make contact with thousands of fellow players, affiliates, casino reps, and all sorts of other riff-raff.

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Casinomeister here!

NE hacked, CON wont repay me although they got my money($4700)

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by chris_d, Jun 16, 2006.

    Jun 16, 2006
  1. chris_d

    chris_d Dormant account

    Occupation:
    unemployed
    Location:
    Arvika
    Hello, Im new here at Casinomeister but has been recommended to post this here by a friend, he also said that you who are Casinomeister might even be able to help me. If so I would be very thankful, i am trying everything. I am not a high stake gambler and this money I worked hard for at the poker tables and I am the least to say, very sad about this whole situation. But i leave it at that, i dont want this to be a cry letter trying you all to feel sry for me.

    What has happened is that someone hacked into my Neteller account (Neteller has confirmed that fraud has taken place and Casino on net=CON does not dispute this). The hacker opened an account in my name, my address, phone number etc he had from NE. He managed to do this although i already had an account at CON. At the casino they told me that there was no breach in the security but I think that it was a big breach. This is what CON says about multiple accounts:

    At all times, you may only have one account, for which you will register using your own, correct name. You may not access the Software or use the Service by means of another person's account. Should you attempt to open more than one account, under your own name or under any other name, or should you attempt to use the Service by means of any other person's account we will be entitled to immediately close all your accounts and bar you from future use of the Service."

    He made two deposits into CON for a total sum of $4700. At first he tried to withdraw my money but after being denied(i assume) he decided to gamble it away. CON means since he lost the money in their casino there is nothing they can do.

    This is their "decision":
    "The funds where deposited played and lost in the same day
    As such, no funds have been cashed out. All where lost on the tables.
    As my colleagues have previously informed you. Unfortunately, Kristian
    we cannot accept responsibility. I respectfully advise that you contact
    Neteller directly or alternatively contact your local Law enforcement
    agency to resolve this matter.

    Thank you for your time and I sincerely apologise for any inconvenience
    this may have caused you.

    Kind regards,
    John.D
    Operation Department
    Cassava (Gibraltar) Ltd.
    This email is not visible to you."

    From my point of view i dont really see what different it makes if the person lost my money gambling in their casino or tried to withdraw(his account has been locked/closed btw) and the money would still be in "his" account. Either way the casino got my money.

    I am very surprised by CON:s position here. The big winner is obviously CON themselves, i dont think for one second if the person actually would have won money they let me withdraw the deposits and winnings to my account. They dont deny they have gotten my money from a person who comitted fraud but they seem to be happy taken it anyway. They are a big casino and wouldnt lose a dime on paying me back, isnt there one ounc of ethic in the casino business?

    Sidenote: The hacker also made a deposit of 1700 into another Casino/Pokerroom but there it seems like they will pay me back. He lost the money in the casino there too, and they are also a much smaller casino/pokerroom than CON. I will update on how this goes hopefully tomorow cuase I will talk to the manager then.

    /Chris
     
  2. Jun 16, 2006
  3. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Legal

    It depends on which party was negligent in the matter, Neteller, the casino, or both.

    You are on good legal grounds, as this is NOT a gambling debt, but a crime. If the money exists, and can be recovered, they are legally bound to return. In law, stolen items belong to the original owner, even if the current owner obtained them in good faith. This often happens with cars. A car can be seized if it was stolen, even if the current owner bought it in good faith from a dealer.
    The casino currently "owns" the money, as it was stolen, the casino should pay it back to Neteller to the amount of the original fraudulent transaction. Any winnings would be void of course, as this was not a valid transaction.

    You are better off contacting Neteller, but also the regulators of Neteller. This will depend on where you are resident. Currently, Neteller itself is based in the IOM, so would be regulated there overall. For UK residents, Neteller UK is also regulated by the UK FSA. It is worth informing them even if you cannot claim, as the fact that this fraud type is even possible is a serious matter and needs to be looked at. You will need to provide proof from Neteller about the admission that they have identified fraud, the word of a player on it's own will not be enough as there will be the concern that the complaint itself is just an attempt at getting money out of a casino.

    If you are to post any E-mails to back up your story, remember to remove any personal information from it and just leave the general text.

    You can also try the "Pitch a Bitch" service here with regard to the stance taken by the casino, which incidentally has been "Rogued" here for an unrelated matter to do with "site scraping" and issues of copyright infringement.
     
  4. Jun 16, 2006
  5. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    How many people is it, so far, that I have seen posting about ID theft, theft from NETeller and then the stolen money deposited to poker rooms?

    How is this happening? Key loggers? Where? When? Who? This is really creeping me out.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Jun 16, 2006
  7. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    Good point Mousey!

    Chris - sorry to hear about this! Have you got any ideas as to how this might've happened? Was it malicious software or something else?

    It would be useful as Mousey says if we could be doing something to stop it happening! Thanks in advance!
     
  8. Jun 16, 2006
  9. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    It is a very scary thing to happen especially when it is through a poker site (Paradise Poker was where I got caught with a keylogger) and Neteller which is a very tightly held site where this is where my funds were trying to be with drawn also.

    I was one of the lucky ones I guess for I was notified when I tried to make a deposit that I was DECLINED which raised a red flag and I went to check my account and sure nough...large sums were being requested from my account but they didn't get a dime out of my Neteller for it was declined due to a note posted in my account saying anything over a certain amount, do not honor. I made sure that it was posted even BIGGER on my account after this fiasco.

    I took the advice of this forum,thank you guys! and wiped my hardrive clean and I haven't had another problem since. I do not go to ANY poker site now at all for this is where I think and almost know 99.9% that it originated from.
     
  10. Jun 16, 2006
  11. chris_d

    chris_d Dormant account

    Occupation:
    unemployed
    Location:
    Arvika
    I have no idea how this happend. And I only have the password in my head, not even wrote it down at home. I got a 2month new computer, new antivirus and a firewall as well... I dont really know who to blame here but one thing thats sure is that my money is missing, theres been a crime and I know for sure that the money is in the casinos.
     
  12. Jun 16, 2006
  13. Linus

    Linus Dormant account

    Occupation:
    asdf
    Location:
    TX
    Mousey - There have been A LOT of cases of internet fraud lately. I've closed my Firepay account and withdrew most of the funds I had had in Neteller. I asked them to disable their "Instant Deposit" feature - which debits your checking account, whether you have funds in it or not - and I keep the checking acct that's linked to Neteller zeroed out. That's all I really know to do. It's inconvenient, but better than having money stolen.


    Chris - If Casino On Net knows your money was stolen, but plans to keep it anyway, that's completely unjustifiable. Doesn't mean they won't do it anyway. :(
     
  14. Jun 17, 2006
  15. Scooter7

    Scooter7 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Gaming
    Location:
    Toronto
    (other excellent points snipped for brevity)

    You would be 100% correct about having good legal grounds, but which ground would you recommend taking legal action on?

    This highlights a difficult aspect of the regulatory game that will eventually need to be sorted out. There is nowhere to take legal action against anyone. The casino's comments about talking to law enforcement are laughable since the casino knows damn well that there isn't a cop or a court in the world that they have to listen to.

    They don't care about everyone's concerns over site scraping, why should they have to care about one player who has no legal leverage against them?

    Question...If you couldn't get arrested no matter what you did....what would you do???:confused:

    Some casinos make up a new answer for that question every day:lolup:
     
  16. Jun 17, 2006
  17. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Better here though.

    This case is a little better though.

    Neteller are regulated in the Isle of Man AND in the UK by the FSA. If Neteller refuses to pursue this matter, complaints and action can be taken in these places. Neteller really should be the first port of call, and should refer this to their security department, and you should zero the account (if not already done) in case further attempts are made.

    If CON are at fault through allowing unauthorised access to your account, then action would be taken in Gibraltar against Cassava, who are regulated by the Gibraltean gaming authorities to run their TWO casinos. Casino-on-net and Reef Club.

    The account transaction history will show the deposits being made, however, the casino will probably have been logging IP addresses, and this could show that the fraudulent transactions have a distinct internet footprint from the genuine ones.

    Formal letters of complaint to Cassava and Neteller is the first step, possibly through a solicitor as they will likely know you are deadly serious about this. This can be followed by a formal complaint to the Gibraltean and Manx authorities who regulate these businesses.

    It is unlikely that either will allow the dispute to linger to the next step, which could be humiliation in the courts at what is a very sensitive time for the industry. Indeed, with sufficient evidence that the casino is aware of the money having been stolen, they could find themselves on the receiving end of a police raid to recover the stolen funds and documentary evidence. This would come out of the blue for them, and they will have no time to cover their a***s!
     
  18. Jun 17, 2006
  19. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Chris, I would suggest your first step is to submit a PAB (Pitch a Bitch) here.

    The Casinomeister is back from leave next week and he has excellent contacts with Neteller and CON which will enable him to confirm the facts, find out how this took place and seek a fair conclusion.

    If the 'Meister has no success, then consider the Gibraltar jurisdictional authorities and a formal claim against Neteller.
     
  20. Jun 17, 2006
  21. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    I believe there is English case law relating to people betting with money not belonging to them, this may even be applicable in Gibraltar.
     
  22. Jun 18, 2006
  23. mitch

    mitch Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Secret
    Location:
    UK
    Strange fraud this!

    A hacker manages to break into someones Neteller account.

    This account has thousands of dollars in it. The hacker to benefit must have a way of diverting this money to himself.

    Apparently, we are being asked to believe, he doesn't bother doing this but opens up an account at a casino the account holder already has an account at!

    Why would he do this? If he intended to deposit then somehow withdraw to a separate account of his own why would he not choose a new casino?

    Quite difficult to open 2 accounts at the same casino using exactly the same identity details. Good trick that. Anybody here ever managed it?

    Something not quite right in the state of Denmark!

    Mitch
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Jun 18, 2006
  25. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska
    First - it is a legal issue.

    Take it up with your local Police Department or State Law Enforcement Agency.

    They will begin a search to attempt a locate on the person hacking your information. If it is found to be across state or country lines it becomes a Federal Matter - which will include the FBI.

    IF you are 100% in the right - that is a lot of money.

    Start with the legal law enforcement angle - and provide them the correct contact numbers. Advise the Casino/Poker Room that you give them permission to discuss your case - and Advise Neteller the exact same thing.

    From that point you will have more of a legal leg to stand on.

    Theft and identity theft are becoming a major problem - and there are task forces to deal with it.

    If you are in the right - and you have the law enforcement investigation to clear you and the transactions, with the assistance of Neteller - you should have your money back in no time.
     
  26. Jun 18, 2006
  27. Linus

    Linus Dormant account

    Occupation:
    asdf
    Location:
    TX
    Well, internet gambling is illegal in the US. So getting help from the police is going to be a longshot, at best.

    Second, CON has already said the money deposited at Casino On Net was stolen. Their position is, they don't care. So even if the got the police involved, there's nothing they can do about it. Casino On Net - like all internet casinos - is beyond the reach of American law. Since they know that, they they could care less whether he contacts the police.

    Third, as far as "legal legs" are concerned, there are no legal legs for Americans to stand on. That's why it's so important for Americans to know that, before they get involved in online gambling. Perhaps if Chris lived on the Isle of Man, or Gibraltar, he might be able to turn to his courts. But he doesn't.


    Mitch -
    I've never tried to open two accounts at the same casino - since it's prohibited at most, if not all of them - as it is at Casino On Net.

    However, as any number of threads on this forum prove up, casinos are primarily concerned with "identity details" when it comes to processing withdrawals.

    When it comes to deposits, I doubt they care one wit about identity details.
     
  28. Jun 18, 2006
  29. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Location: Arvika. There is an Arvika in Sweden, if that where chris_d is, the legality or otherwise of online gambling in the US is irrelevant.
     
  30. Jun 18, 2006
  31. Linus

    Linus Dormant account

    Occupation:
    asdf
    Location:
    TX
    Oops, sorry. I have no idea about Swedish law - although I suspect it's safe to say it doesn't appy to Gibraltar, anymore than the American kind does.
     
  32. Jun 19, 2006
  33. WagerWitch

    WagerWitch Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Yeah - like - really? Hmmm do I have to work?
    Location:
    Alaska

    Actually - the issue is not gambling - although the end product was gambling.


    The issue of concern is someone using a Neteller account hacking to forge credit usage from one point to another point.

    That is a crime. A Federal Crime.

    Prove that first - then rebut with the casino.

    If Neteller is agreeing that the account was hacked - Neteller should be liable for the losses. Just my way of thinking.

    However, it is a crime - regardless of the legality of gambling. (Which, only WA has managed to make online gambling illegal, to the best of my knowledge.)
     
  34. Jun 19, 2006
  35. bb1webs

    bb1webs Webmaster

    Occupation:
    gambling portal webmaster
    Location:
    BondedCasinos.com
    Hi,

    not being a lawyer, I can't say what legal grounds you have/not: but I do know right from wrong.

    CON has the position of reputation to consider and the resources to easily absorb this since when you get down to it; the money they'd be returning was lost to them anyway.

    However CON has and continues to prove what kind of integrity they have, thus it is unlikely they will ever make things right unless excessive pressure is put on them and even then I don't know if they'd cave. I recall a player at Pacific had a similar situation only that player had even went to the trouble to contact CON and request a freeze on the account until such time that a full investigation could be done. a short time later the player logged back into the account (which to my understanding shouldn't have been possible if it was frozen) ... only to find out that the remaining money had also been taken. Come to think of it ... I think I read about that incident here at CM.

    What boggles my mind over that and now this incident is that CON can easily afford to make things right; protecting a casino's most important aspect: its integrity. Yet CON seemingly has no concern about how it is viewed by the public.

    Their actions or rather inactions speak volumes to me.

    I truly hope you get things worked out. If I were you I'd concentrate on the NETeller angle and of course never patronize CON again.
     
  36. Jun 19, 2006
  37. haddddock

    haddddock Dormant account

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester - UK
    I have to agree with bb1webs although for slightly different reasons.

    NETeller guarantees its merchants against fraud and charges a premium for doing so. Your best bet will be to convince NETeller that these funds were fraudulently removed from your account and seek compensation from them.

    Hope it turns out for you
     
  38. Jun 19, 2006
  39. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Chris_d have you submitted a PAB yet?
     

Share This Page