NE hacked, CON wont repay me although they got my money($4700)

[chris_d]

Hello, Im new here at Casinomeister but has been recommended to post this here by a friend, he also said that you who are Casinomeister might even be able to help me. If so I would be very thankful, i am trying everything. I am not a high stake gambler and this money I worked hard for at the poker tables and I am the least to say, very sad about this whole situation. But i leave it at that, i dont want this to be a cry letter trying you all to feel sry for me.

What has happened is that someone hacked into my Neteller account (Neteller has confirmed that fraud has taken place and Casino on net=CON does not dispute this). The hacker opened an account in my name, my address, phone number etc he had from NE. He managed to do this although i already had an account at CON. At the casino they told me that there was no breach in the security but I think that it was a big breach. This is what CON says about multiple accounts:

At all times, you may only have one account, for which you will register using your own, correct name. You may not access the Software or use the Service by means of another person's account. Should you attempt to open more than one account, under your own name or under any other name, or should you attempt to use the Service by means of any other person's account we will be entitled to immediately close all your accounts and bar you from future use of the Service."

He made two deposits into CON for a total sum of $4700. At first he tried to withdraw my money but after being denied(i assume) he decided to gamble it away. CON means since he lost the money in their casino there is nothing they can do.

This is their "decision":
"The funds where deposited played and lost in the same day
As such, no funds have been cashed out. All where lost on the tables.
As my colleagues have previously informed you. Unfortunately, Kristian
we cannot accept responsibility. I respectfully advise that you contact
Neteller directly or alternatively contact your local Law enforcement
agency to resolve this matter.

Thank you for your time and I sincerely apologise for any inconvenience
this may have caused you.

Kind regards,
John.D
Operation Department
Cassava (Gibraltar) Ltd.
operations@cassava.net"

From my point of view i dont really see what different it makes if the person lost my money gambling in their casino or tried to withdraw(his account has been locked/closed btw) and the money would still be in "his" account. Either way the casino got my money.

I am very surprised by CON:s position here. The big winner is obviously CON themselves, i dont think for one second if the person actually would have won money they let me withdraw the deposits and winnings to my account. They dont deny they have gotten my money from a person who comitted fraud but they seem to be happy taken it anyway. They are a big casino and wouldnt lose a dime on paying me back, isnt there one ounc of ethic in the casino business?

Sidenote: The hacker also made a deposit of 1700 into another Casino/Pokerroom but there it seems like they will pay me back. He lost the money in the casino there too, and they are also a much smaller casino/pokerroom than CON. I will update on how this goes hopefully tomorow cuase I will talk to the manager then.

/Chris

 

[vinylweatherman]

Legal

It depends on which party was negligent in the matter, Neteller, the casino, or both.

You are on good legal grounds, as this is NOT a gambling debt, but a crime. If the money exists, and can be recovered, they are legally bound to return. In law, stolen items belong to the original owner, even if the current owner obtained them in good faith. This often happens with cars. A car can be seized if it was stolen, even if the current owner bought it in good faith from a dealer.
The casino currently "owns" the money, as it was stolen, the casino should pay it back to Neteller to the amount of the original fraudulent transaction. Any winnings would be void of course, as this was not a valid transaction.

You are better off contacting Neteller, but also the regulators of Neteller. This will depend on where you are resident. Currently, Neteller itself is based in the IOM, so would be regulated there overall. For UK residents, Neteller UK is also regulated by the UK FSA. It is worth informing them even if you cannot claim, as the fact that this fraud type is even possible is a serious matter and needs to be looked at. You will need to provide proof from Neteller about the admission that they have identified fraud, the word of a player on it's own will not be enough as there will be the concern that the complaint itself is just an attempt at getting money out of a casino.

If you are to post any E-mails to back up your story, remember to remove any personal information from it and just leave the general text.

You can also try the "Pitch a Bitch" service here with regard to the stance taken by the casino, which incidentally has been "Rogued" here for an unrelated matter to do with "site scraping" and issues of copyright infringement.

 

[Mousey]

How many people is it, so far, that I have seen posting about ID theft, theft from NETeller and then the stolen money deposited to poker rooms?

How is this happening? Key loggers? Where? When? Who? This is really creeping me out.

 

[Slotster!]

Good point Mousey!

Chris - sorry to hear about this! Have you got any ideas as to how this might've happened? Was it malicious software or something else?

It would be useful as Mousey says if we could be doing something to stop it happening! Thanks in advance!

 

[silcnlayc]

It is a very scary thing to happen especially when it is through a poker site (Paradise Poker was where I got caught with a keylogger) and Neteller which is a very tightly held site where this is where my funds were trying to be with drawn also.

I was one of the lucky ones I guess for I was notified when I tried to make a deposit that I was DECLINED which raised a red flag and I went to check my account and sure nough...large sums were being requested from my account but they didn't get a dime out of my Neteller for it was declined due to a note posted in my account saying anything over a certain amount, do not honor. I made sure that it was posted even BIGGER on my account after this fiasco.

I took the advice of this forum,thank you guys! and wiped my hardrive clean and I haven't had another problem since. I do not go to ANY poker site now at all for this is where I think and almost know 99.9% that it originated from.

 

[chris_d]

Chris - sorry to hear about this! Have you got any ideas as to how this might've happened? Was it malicious software or something else?

I have no idea how this happend. And I only have the password in my head, not even wrote it down at home. I got a 2month new computer, new antivirus and a firewall as well... I dont really know who to blame here but one thing thats sure is that my money is missing, theres been a crime and I know for sure that the money is in the casinos.

 

[Linus]

Mousey - There have been A LOT of cases of internet fraud lately. I've closed my Firepay account and withdrew most of the funds I had had in Neteller. I asked them to disable their "Instant Deposit" feature - which debits your checking account, whether you have funds in it or not - and I keep the checking acct that's linked to Neteller zeroed out. That's all I really know to do. It's inconvenient, but better than having money stolen.


Chris - If Casino On Net knows your money was stolen, but plans to keep it anyway, that's completely unjustifiable. Doesn't mean they won't do it anyway.

 

[Scooter7]

It depends on which party was negligent in the matter, Neteller, the casino, or both.

You are on good legal grounds, as this is NOT a gambling debt, but a crime. If the money exists, and can be recovered, they are legally bound to return. In law, stolen items belong to the original owner, even if the current owner obtained them in good faith.

(other excellent points snipped for brevity)

You would be 100% correct about having good legal grounds, but which ground would you recommend taking legal action on?

This highlights a difficult aspect of the regulatory game that will eventually need to be sorted out. There is nowhere to take legal action against anyone. The casino's comments about talking to law enforcement are laughable since the casino knows damn well that there isn't a cop or a court in the world that they have to listen to.

They don't care about everyone's concerns over site scraping, why should they have to care about one player who has no legal leverage against them?

Question...If you couldn't get arrested no matter what you did....what would you do???

Some casinos make up a new answer for that question every day

 

[vinylweatherman]

Better here though.

This case is a little better though.

Neteller are regulated in the Isle of Man AND in the UK by the FSA. If Neteller refuses to pursue this matter, complaints and action can be taken in these places. Neteller really should be the first port of call, and should refer this to their security department, and you should zero the account (if not already done) in case further attempts are made.

If CON are at fault through allowing unauthorised access to your account, then action would be taken in Gibraltar against Cassava, who are regulated by the Gibraltean gaming authorities to run their TWO casinos. Casino-on-net and Reef Club.

The account transaction history will show the deposits being made, however, the casino will probably have been logging IP addresses, and this could show that the fraudulent transactions have a distinct internet footprint from the genuine ones.

Formal letters of complaint to Cassava and Neteller is the first step, possibly through a solicitor as they will likely know you are deadly serious about this. This can be followed by a formal complaint to the Gibraltean and Manx authorities who regulate these businesses.

It is unlikely that either will allow the dispute to linger to the next step, which could be humiliation in the courts at what is a very sensitive time for the industry. Indeed, with sufficient evidence that the casino is aware of the money having been stolen, they could find themselves on the receiving end of a police raid to recover the stolen funds and documentary evidence. This would come out of the blue for them, and they will have no time to cover their a***s!

 

[jetset]

Chris, I would suggest your first step is to submit a PAB (Pitch a Bitch) here.

The Casinomeister is back from leave next week and he has excellent contacts with Neteller and CON which will enable him to confirm the facts, find out how this took place and seek a fair conclusion.

If the 'Meister has no success, then consider the Gibraltar jurisdictional authorities and a formal claim against Neteller.

 

[GrandMaster]

I believe there is English case law relating to people betting with money not belonging to them, this may even be applicable in Gibraltar.

 

[mitch]

Strange fraud this!

A hacker manages to break into someones Neteller account.

This account has thousands of dollars in it. The hacker to benefit must have a way of diverting this money to himself.

Apparently, we are being asked to believe, he doesn't bother doing this but opens up an account at a casino the account holder already has an account at!

Why would he do this? If he intended to deposit then somehow withdraw to a separate account of his own why would he not choose a new casino?

Quite difficult to open 2 accounts at the same casino using exactly the same identity details. Good trick that. Anybody here ever managed it?

Something not quite right in the state of Denmark!

Mitch

 

[WagerWitch]

First - it is a legal issue.

Take it up with your local Police Department or State Law Enforcement Agency.

They will begin a search to attempt a locate on the person hacking your information. If it is found to be across state or country lines it becomes a Federal Matter - which will include the FBI.

IF you are 100% in the right - that is a lot of money.

Start with the legal law enforcement angle - and provide them the correct contact numbers. Advise the Casino/Poker Room that you give them permission to discuss your case - and Advise Neteller the exact same thing.

From that point you will have more of a legal leg to stand on.

Theft and identity theft are becoming a major problem - and there are task forces to deal with it.

If you are in the right - and you have the law enforcement investigation to clear you and the transactions, with the assistance of Neteller - you should have your money back in no time.

 

[Linus]

Well, internet gambling is illegal in the US. So getting help from the police is going to be a longshot, at best.

Second, CON has already said the money deposited at Casino On Net was stolen. Their position is, they don't care. So even if the got the police involved, there's nothing they can do about it. Casino On Net - like all internet casinos - is beyond the reach of American law. Since they know that, they they could care less whether he contacts the police.

Third, as far as "legal legs" are concerned, there are no legal legs for Americans to stand on. That's why it's so important for Americans to know that, before they get involved in online gambling. Perhaps if Chris lived on the Isle of Man, or Gibraltar, he might be able to turn to his courts. But he doesn't.


Mitch -

Quite difficult to open 2 accounts at the same casino using exactly the same identity details. Good trick that. Anybody here ever managed it?

I've never tried to open two accounts at the same casino - since it's prohibited at most, if not all of them - as it is at Casino On Net.

However, as any number of threads on this forum prove up, casinos are primarily concerned with "identity details" when it comes to processing withdrawals.

When it comes to deposits, I doubt they care one wit about identity details.

 

[GrandMaster]

Location: Arvika. There is an Arvika in Sweden, if that where chris_d is, the legality or otherwise of online gambling in the US is irrelevant.

 

[Linus]

Oops, sorry. I have no idea about Swedish law - although I suspect it's safe to say it doesn't appy to Gibraltar, anymore than the American kind does.

 

[WagerWitch]

Well, internet gambling is illegal in the US. So getting help from the police is going to be a longshot, at best.

Actually - the issue is not gambling - although the end product was gambling.


The issue of concern is someone using a Neteller account hacking to forge credit usage from one point to another point.

That is a crime. A Federal Crime.

Prove that first - then rebut with the casino.

If Neteller is agreeing that the account was hacked - Neteller should be liable for the losses. Just my way of thinking.

However, it is a crime - regardless of the legality of gambling. (Which, only WA has managed to make online gambling illegal, to the best of my knowledge.)

 

[bb1webs]

Hi,

not being a lawyer, I can't say what legal grounds you have/not: but I do know right from wrong.

CON has the position of reputation to consider and the resources to easily absorb this since when you get down to it; the money they'd be returning was lost to them anyway.

However CON has and continues to prove what kind of integrity they have, thus it is unlikely they will ever make things right unless excessive pressure is put on them and even then I don't know if they'd cave. I recall a player at Pacific had a similar situation only that player had even went to the trouble to contact CON and request a freeze on the account until such time that a full investigation could be done. a short time later the player logged back into the account (which to my understanding shouldn't have been possible if it was frozen) ... only to find out that the remaining money had also been taken. Come to think of it ... I think I read about that incident here at CM.

What boggles my mind over that and now this incident is that CON can easily afford to make things right; protecting a casino's most important aspect: its integrity. Yet CON seemingly has no concern about how it is viewed by the public.

Their actions or rather inactions speak volumes to me.

I truly hope you get things worked out. If I were you I'd concentrate on the NETeller angle and of course never patronize CON again.

 

[haddddock]

I have to agree with bb1webs although for slightly different reasons.

NETeller guarantees its merchants against fraud and charges a premium for doing so. Your best bet will be to convince NETeller that these funds were fraudulently removed from your account and seek compensation from them.

Hope it turns out for you

 

[jetset]

Chris_d have you submitted a PAB yet?

 

[mitch]

Chris_d have you submitted a PAB yet?

This bloke, having told a tale of real mystery and intrigue, hasn't even bothered to visit the forum since 16/06/06!

Mitch

 

[chris_d]

I have to agree with bb1webs although for slightly different reasons.

NETeller guarantees its merchants against fraud and charges a premium for doing so. Your best bet will be to convince NETeller that these funds were fraudulently removed from your account and seek compensation from them.

Hope it turns out for you

Okej, but Neteller also have protection againt this:
11.2. It is your responsibility to keep your Account identification, secure identification, password, security questions and answers and other information specific to your Account confidential and in a safe and secure place. Should another person gain access to your Account by passing all identification and security validation and verification checks, we are entitled to treat any transaction conducted by that person as valid and authorised by you and are not responsible for any loss or damage you may incur as a result.
I thought I had some kind of insurance but i guess not... But if I cant get my money back from Neteller and they cant protect it, then I would say that Neteller is useless.

Chris_d have you submitted a PAB yet?

Maybe I should try that even if CON is on the list: dont bother. Cant find PAB now, mabye its closed for the moment?

This was the answer I got from CON today:
"Please note that the new Casino On net account was registered with the
same details as your other Casino On Net and Pacific Poker account.
Additionally the same payment method was used to deposit, and a very
similar email address. Therefore there was no way for us to now that
this account was not set up by you.

In addition, if your Neteller account details have been stolen by a
person unknown to you, then this is an issue that you must take up with
Neteller. This is in no way our responsibility.

I am afraid that further correspondence with us will only evoke the same
response, and we now consider this matter closed. No further
correspondence in this issue will be entered into."

There is two things I just dont understand. First it seems to be 100% okey to open as many accounts as you like as long as you just deposite money and then lose it in the casino. The other thing is that they take my money without even think about it. This is stolen money and they know that the money doesnt belong to them.

btw mitch I have looked at this post 2-3times a day but havent logged in.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Legal

Okej, but Neteller also have protection againt this:
11.2. It is your responsibility to keep your Account identification, secure identification, password, security questions and answers and other information specific to your Account confidential and in a safe and secure place. Should another person gain access to your Account by passing all identification and security validation and verification checks, we are entitled to treat any transaction conducted by that person as valid and authorised by you and are not responsible for any loss or damage you may incur as a result.
I thought I had some kind of insurance but i guess not... But if I cant get my money back from Neteller and they cant protect it, then I would say that Neteller is useless.


Maybe I should try that even if CON is on the list: dont bother. Cant find PAB now, mabye its closed for the moment?

This was the answer I got from CON today:
"Please note that the new Casino On net account was registered with the
same details as your other Casino On Net and Pacific Poker account.
Additionally the same payment method was used to deposit, and a very
similar email address. Therefore there was no way for us to now that
this account was not set up by you.

In addition, if your Neteller account details have been stolen by a
person unknown to you, then this is an issue that you must take up with
Neteller. This is in no way our responsibility.

I am afraid that further correspondence with us will only evoke the same
response, and we now consider this matter closed. No further
correspondence in this issue will be entered into."

There is two things I just dont understand. First it seems to be 100% okey to open as many accounts as you like as long as you just deposite money and then lose it in the casino. The other thing is that they take my money without even think about it. This is stolen money and they know that the money doesnt belong to them.

btw mitch I have looked at this post 2-3times a day but havent logged in.

Their argument is that they took the money in good faith, and believed at the time it was you opening a second account. They may have actually put their foot in it though. If the terms state that multiple accounts are not permitted, then you can argue that they would never have paid if you had won, and thus all wagers are null and void.
I am not sure this is necessarily the case at Cryptologic though, it would depend on demonstrating that they would never have honoured a payment. If this other account was given a bonus, this would strengthen the case, as they would most likely have voided play due to "bonus abuse" if the fraudulemt accout had won.

It is worth looking into how the deposit was made, such as which IP address, and who registered the other E-mail address. Neteller is supposed to check on E-mail addresses, as well as other information, however, deposits at Intercasino are through the E-cash interface, not Neteller.
If they believe the account to belong to you, they should have no problem in giving you all the details so that you may launch a "police" investigation into what is a serious crime. If they claim confidentiality to the account holder, they are implying they know it is not your account, which makes them aware of receiving stolen money.

With Bryan now back, get a PAB in.

 

[bpb]

Devil's Advocate here

If CON returns these funds, then anyone could do the following

1) Give a friend who likes across the country, or preferably, on the other side of the world, the necessary info to transfer $10,000 to the casino from Neteller. That friend does this from an internet cafe or other anonymous location.

2) That friend gambles like a madman to try to hit $50,000 or bust. If he hits $50,000, he withdraws, and you split the profit.

3) If you go busto, the original account holder contacts the casino after a few days and claims fraud. Any investigation into the play will reveal that it took place many thousands of miles away, and that the gambling pattern was very erratic and consistent with a nutjob hacker blowing 10 grand in an effort to screw over the original account holder.

If the casino pays out, it gives scammers a freeroll at making a large score. Casinos need to protect themselves from fraud, and the only way to do so, is unfortunately, to take a hard line stance in instances like this. It sucks when someone gets legititimately hacked and taken to the cleaners, but ultimately it is up to the individual to protect their online finances.


The argument that "The money was lost directly to the casino so they're not losing anything by giving it back" just isn't true.

 

[Linus]

It's important for people who use Neteller, or who play at casinos, to realize this could happen to you. If you wake up one morning, and your Neteller is cleaned out, it's likely you'll have little recourse. The casinos - too many of them - are located in Costa Rico and other places specifically chosen to be beyond the reach of the law. So when a casino gets tired of talking, it can simply say, "We now consider this matter closed."


bpb - you know, as well as I do - if you know anything about the casino industry - that Casino On Net would never let your friendly madman cashout. They would "notice" the duplicate account, and promptly confiscate the winnings.

CON's policies are all about freerolling on stolen money, and nothing whatsoever to do with protecting itself.

You are right, though, that players must protect themselves, when it comes to online gambling.