Microgaming Pai Gow Poker payout bug

[Jufo]

I don't know if any of you has had the same issue, but I was dealt a false payout on Pai Gow Poker at Gowild casino (MG) today. I was quite surprised because Microgaming software rarely has bugs with payouts. I hope I wasn't being short-payed on purpose. I am posting this here to warn other players about potential problems with payouts at Gowild casino.

 

[Jufo]

It seems that the issue with malfunctioning game is not only an issue at GoWild but across whole MG. I just repeated the exact same glitch at Gnuf:

 

[KasinoKing]

Wow - that's some serious shit!
It was easy to spot on that game but what if other games are underpaying too - like slots for example - would anyone be likely to notice?

Anyone know how we get this brought to MG's attention pronto?

KK

 

[spearmaster]

Ouch...

 

[chuchu59]

I played paigow at Gowild less than a week ago and the payouts were correct at that time.

Out of interest, did they award a $1 win or was it a $4 loss for a push with a $5 bet?

 

[Jufo]

I played paigow at Gowild less than a week ago and the payouts were correct at that time.

Out of interest, did they award a $1 win or was it a $4 loss for a push with a $5 bet?

I don't see what the difference is between those two? On a tie I was paid $1 with $5 bet for a loss of $4.

I'd suggest people stay away from this game until this bug has been fixed.

 

[betway support]

Hi all,

I will be in contact with Microgaming regarding this and should get to the bottom of it shortly.

Regards,

Betway Support

 

[maphesto]

Ooops!

This may be a interesting thread! We all remember the Tradition issue.

 

[Floyd GoWild]

Hi Everyone

Hi Everyone,

Thank you Jufo for pointing to this matter, As soon as I read the above I contacted Microgaming and they are investigating this matter.

Of course that GoWild or any other Microgaming casino cannot change the games winnings and odds, that is why Microgaming is considered to be the most fair casino platform.

I am sure a conclusion will arrive soon - I will update the thread when it will.


Thank you all

Floyd W.

 

[Jufo]

Both reps of the affected casinos responded both to me and in this thread and I am happy with their helpfulness so far.

By the way, you can repeat the bug in free play mode as well. Play Pai Gow Poker in free play mode and bet more than 1 chip per hand. You should observe the payout bug there.

 

[Cant_Get_Right]

Ooops!

This may be a interesting thread! We all remember the Tradition issue.

1 for you and 2 for me. 2 for you and 3,4 for me. 3 for you and 4,5,6 for me.

 

[maxd]

Thread title changed per OP's request.

(fyi, OP = Original Poster, the person who started the thread.)

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you Jufo for pointing to this matter, As soon as I read the above I contacted Microgaming and they are investigating this matter.

Of course that GoWild or any other Microgaming casino cannot change the games winnings and odds, that is why Microgaming is considered to be the most fair casino platform.

I am sure a conclusion will arrive soon - I will update the thread when it will.


Thank you all

Floyd W.

The problem yet AGAIN seems to be one of rushing out upgrades without THOROUGH testing.

There have been MANY bugs with MGS, and often it is hard work to get MGS to do anything about it. The bugs mostly affect performance of the client software, and often not on EVERY PC. This is FAR more serious though, and leaves me wondering what they did with an OLD GAME that caused this to happen, since they tell us the games, once developed, are SET IN STONE, and the underlying odds are NEVER changed, so WHY ON EARTH were these payout routines even touched, let alone cocked-up.

I have spotted a SECOND bug, equally as serious, and coming with the same update as seems to have produced this one. I found all my history has BEEN WIPED Cashcheck shows no activity before mid April, yet I have been making deposits, and a couple of withdrawals, since January.
Further, games that "store" state between sessions, such as Tomb Raider II, have had the stored states WIPED, and the games "factory reset".
This has consequences for the mid term RTP, since there is, in some cases, "saved value" as well as "eye candy" involved. TR II, for example, needs 5 passports to get the feature, and it can sometimes take HUNDREDS of spins just to get one of the last couple. Annoying if they are all wiped, and you have to start again.
This has also dented my trust in MGS software, since it now seems that this kind of thing DOES happen, even though it is not supposed to. There are, apparently, NO safeguards to prevent this, and once lost, how the HELL does the player prove that anything of the kind has indeed happened.
I cannot even prove deposits & withdrawals, since they come under the processor name, and not the name of the individual casino.

I DID contact support for the casino concerned, but so far have heard nothing back, clearly NOT an urgent issue, but maybe THIS revelation shows that there HAS been a serious malfunction.

Players concerned should check their Cashcheck, to see if they have "lost" any history (last 2 YEARS should be available), and if they have, check any games that they KNOW they have played recently, and that save "tokens" of some sort towards a bonus, or even an "eye candy" trail, such as Great Galaxy Grab. The new Thunderstruck II is one such slot, so a bug in saving states is SERIOUS, since MGS are now producing more games along these lines.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

If true then this is a HUGE incident. The Tradition error was bad enough but thankfully that only applied to a single casino with a small number of players. But if there has been an industry wide MG error running than this is MASSIVE.

The obvious question is how long has this been running for?

And the points VWM makes above are very important as if there has been some kind of 'factory reset' to saved tokens etc then this will have a significant effect on RTP.

It also worries me as KK said above - about how many players could spot a mis-pay on slots? I know I would be unlikely to.

All very worrying.

 

[Cant_Get_Right]

If true then this is a HUGE incident. The Tradition error was bad enough but thankfully that only applied to a single casino with a small number of players. But if there has been an industry wide MG error running than this is MASSIVE.

The obvious question is how long has this been running for?

And the points VWM makes above are very important as if there has been some kind of 'factory reset' to saved tokens etc then this will have a significant effect on RTP.

It also worries me as KK said above - about how many players could spot a mis-pay on slots? I know I would be unlikely to.

All very worrying.

1 for you and 2 for me. 2 for you and 3,4 for me. 3 for you and 4,5,6 for me.

 

[Jufo]

If true then this is a HUGE incident.

Like I said you are able to repeat the error by playing Pai Gow poker and betting more than 1 chip. I tried it at several casinos with play money and the exact same thing happened in all of them. Unless for some reason this bug only occurs on my computer?

There has still been no feedback from casino reps or Microgaming today nor the lost money reimbursed. This is quite silly as verifying the incorrect payout takes maybe 5 minutes tops.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Like I said you are able to repeat the error by playing Pai Gow poker and betting more than 1 chip. I tried it at several casinos with play money and the exact same thing happened in all of them. Unless for some reason this bug only occurs on my computer?

There has still been no feedback from casino reps or Microgaming today nor the lost money reimbursed. This is quite silly as verifying the incorrect payout takes maybe 5 minutes tops.

If Playcheck also shows an incorrect payout, it is NOT just your computer, but a genuine game bug.

MY bug, so far, has ONLY seemed to affect one casino, but this should NOT diminish how SERIOUS this is.

I simply CANNOT verify anything, since ALL data has been wiped, NO Cashcheck, and NO Playcheck is showing. IF I could access playcheck, and get up the "detailed" view, I could PROVE the bug either exists, or I remembered something from a different casino.

The games in question were in my favourites, and I have RECENTLY reinstalled the casino, so I MUST have played the games (I remember doing so as well), yet now they have ALL been "factory reset". Tokens, passports, etc are gone, and coins, lines, etc have reverted back to the new account defaults for the game. MGS games normally bring up the state after the last hand/spin when launched, even when the casino has been uninstalled and reinstalled locally. This was a TOTAL DATA WIPE, and this means a total EVIDENCE wipe too, making it hard to prove anything.

This COULD happen at ANY MGS casino, and at ANY time, and is a SERIOUS vulnerability that "rips off" PLAYERS because it causes RTP to fall in the mid term for these games, and wipes transaction history (which may not even be LEGAL for them to do under financial regulations).

 

[brutaldeluxe]

Microgaming Massive Bug

Noticed a pretty bad bug in mircogaming, must be since the thunderstruck 2 update. Basically try playing bonus pai gow poker - I bet on the bonus and on the play and no matter if I win both hands, win one and lose one or lose both I lose cash.

For instance say I bet £1 on bonus and £2 on play and win both hands with a non bonus paying hand. My TOTAL payback seems to be £1.95 and hence my balance goes down even though I should lose £1 on the bonus and get back my £2 plus £1.95

Try it out and you'll see what I mean. I am tempted to complain a bit !

 

[vinylweatherman]

Noticed a pretty bad bug in mircogaming, must be since the thunderstruck 2 update. Basically try playing bonus pai gow poker - I bet on the bonus and on the play and no matter if I win both hands, win one and lose one or lose both I lose cash.

For instance say I bet £1 on bonus and £2 on play and win both hands with a non bonus paying hand. My TOTAL payback seems to be £1.95 and hence my balance goes down even though I should lose £1 on the bonus and get back my £2 plus £1.95

Try it out and you'll see what I mean. I am tempted to complain a bit !

This has already been noticed, along with ANOTHER bug I noticed.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/microgaming-pai-gow-poker-payout-bug.37717/

Although this has been referred back to MGS, nothing has been communicated back, and the game is STILL live, and others like yourself are noticing the bug.

From your description, it seems the bug is the failure to return the stake on a winning bet. Others have suggested this bug only ocurrs if more than 1 credit is wagered.

 

[Cant_Get_Right]

Yep...This is free play and the same thing. I very serious doubt this is mistake. Consider the problems going on in europe with the economy. Sure they will refund those accounts who complained. But some players may no follow thru.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yep...This is free play and the same thing. I very serious doubt this is mistake. Consider the problems going on in europe with the economy. Sure they will refund those accounts who complained. But some players may no follow thru.

Holy crap!!!

This is FAR WORSE than I thought

What seems to be happening here is that your bonus bet of 20 won, and was paid out at 2:1, hence 60 credits were returned.

Your 200 credit play bet also won, and you got back .... wait for it.... 1.95

This is "theft" on a grand scale by a major software bug, and is far WORSE than the bug that afflicted tradition.

Hopefully, MGS are better placed to handle the fallout, since they will have to audit ALL gameplay at EVERY casino on this game, to determine what adjustments have to be made. Operators then face the task of sorting out crediting the payments. This also means affiliate figures will have to be adjusted, and some money "clawed back" from the next payment. Unlike players, affiliates could end up owing their program money.

There is also scope for a certain type of fraud unless MGS get their arse in gear, and disable this game pending a fix & audit.

 

[Mousey]

I don't know if any of you has had the same issue, but I was dealt a false payout on Pai Gow Poker at Gowild casino (MG) today. I was quite surprised because Microgaming software rarely has bugs with payouts. I hope I wasn't being short-payed on purpose. I am posting this here to warn other players about potential problems with payouts at Gowild casino.

Oh, for crying out loud... who let Wesley play with the controls on the Bridge (again).

(That's for you Star Trek fans...

If this 'glitch' is being confirmed, and repeated with trial runs... in all seriousness, this is one time I really think players deserve an explanation directly from Microgaming. Not some 'he said, she said, they told me, blah blah', 3rd or 4th hand from affiliates, or casino operators, etc.

This is a little bit more than an 'oopsie'.

 

[brutaldeluxe]

Sorry I didn't see the other posts. Notice how this game is still up and running and fleecing people. Of course if the game paid the player too much then I guess it would be shut down in about 0.000001 seconds.

 

[takethemoney]

And the game is still running in this state, as I understand it!

 

[Simmo!]

FYI: Merged the two threads on this topic.

Weird that it's still live. This can only mean that MG haven't been able to confirm the bug but you'd have thought this was a urgent issue not only for players, but for software integrity.

As an aside, for those that play Pai Gow and are worried, it's worth remembering that when this happened before on another game (Mega Moolah I think it was) Microgaming casinos ensured that all players were refunded affected bets.

 

[Tengil]

FYI: Merged the two threads on this topic.

Weird that it's still live. This can only mean that MG haven't been able to confirm the bug but you'd have thought this was a urgent issue not only for players, but for software integrity.

As an aside, for those that play Pai Gow and are worried, it's worth remembering that when this happened before on another game (Mega Moolah I think it was) Microgaming casinos ensured that all players were refunded affected bets.

Well they could of course pulled the game instantly

What little confidence and trust I had left in Microgaming is by now gone.

 

[Jufo]

From your description, it seems the bug is the failure to return the stake on a winning bet. Others have suggested this bug only ocurrs if more than 1 credit is wagered.

The bug is that whatever you bet on the main bet, your winnings will be paid as if you bet 1 credit. So if you bet 100 and win, you get 1.95 back. If you bet 5 and win, you get 1.95 back also. The game is fair only if you bet 1 credit.

Yep...This is free play and the same thing. I very serious doubt this is mistake. Consider the problems going on in europe with the economy. Sure they will refund those accounts who complained. But some players may no follow thru.

It has to be a mistake. It doesn't make any sense to rig a game so that it pays back 1.95€ on a 100€ bet. That would be just silly.

And the game is still running in this state, as I understand it!

I gave Microgaming a chance to remove the game early, as I was the first one to report this bug on Tuesday. And here were are on Friday and the game is still running. I also expected that I would be reimbursed my losses within hours so that I could move on from this issue, but three days later I am still left hanging and I don't like that.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This is a joke, these are WORKING DAYS, and this bug is VERY VERY SERIOUS INDEED, and action should have been IMMEDIATE. We are now at the weekend, so there will be a gap of 2 NON working days now before MGS are back in the office, leaving the entire weekend for players to be fleeced.

MGS don't seem to be taking this seriously, and I bet they WOULD if it was the other way around, such as any bet being paid as though the bet was 200 and not 1.

Since they were informed on Tuesday, action should have been taken on Wednesday to at least limit the damage, and show players the issue was at least being addressed.

Perhaps they need further pressure.

Think "affiliate fraud", coupled with MGS dragging their feet over this issue such that player refunds are not made until June

I do not doubt for one minute that this bug is being "tested" by "advantage" players in fun mode, and more seriously, by FRAUDSTERS, to see if this bug goes further, perhaps offering a way to make the money move the OTHER way, from casino to player perhaps.

 

[De Beuker]

Can one of the casinoreps please explain why on earth the game is still online??
Can a game be pulled by the casino or does MG have to do this?
And why is this not done yet??

I'm flabbergasted, when Rival pulled a stunt like this they were flamed, fried, ROGUED and dragged through the mud and now its MG and nobody gives a sh*t.

I know I'm gonna keep a hawkeye on my slotspayouts.

 

[Jufo]

Here we are on Saturday and still no reimbursement on the money I lost on Tuesday Actually Gnuf rep gave me a free chip for the inconvenience but they said that it is not a reimbursement of the lost money. Go Wild hasn't given anything except "thanks" for bringing the issue to their attention.

 

[maphesto]

Here we are on Saturday and still no reimbursement on the money I lost on Tuesday Actually Gnuf rep gave me a free chip for the inconvenience but they said that it is not a reimbursement of the lost money. Go Wild hasn't given anything except "thanks" for bringing the issue to their attention.

I have to say that this is on Microgaming now. The casino can do nothing without the logs and the words from Microgaming.

You have found something BIG (that´s why I nominated your post) and it´s not easy at all for the casinos(all MGS) to know what to do now.

 

[RobWin]

Can one of the casinoreps please explain why on earth the game is still online??
Can a game be pulled by the casino or does MG have to do this?
And why is this not done yet??

I'm flabbergasted, when Rival pulled a stunt like this they were flamed, fried, ROGUED and dragged through the mud and now its MG and nobody gives a sh*t.

I know I'm gonna keep a hawkeye on my slotspayouts.

Strange ain't it...where are all of those... "fry Rival's ass" voices at now?

Just hope Bryan does not make a rash decision to pull all of the Microgaming Casinos from the accredited list here as he did with all the Rival Casinos under similar circumstances.
____
____

 

[Jufo]

Based on play money testing today the Pai Gow poker bug has been fixed now across all MG casinos in silence.

 

[takethemoney]

Based on play money testing today the Pai Gow poker bug has been fixed now across all MG casinos in silence.

That's fine and all, but where is the money that the players are owed for the underpaid hands?

I was wondering the other day why there are no Rival casinos in the accredited list. I got my answer in this thread.

 

[Pinababy69]

Rob is right. I read this thread last night, and was absolutely flabbergasted that four days after the original "bug" was discovered, the game was still live, and nary a word from MG. I have no doubt that affected players will be compensated....but that's only one aspect of the whole thing.

I personally would like two questions answered. One, why in the world did it take five days to correct the problem? And two, if payouts (RTP) are indeed set in stone, and games aren't fiddled with ever (by MG), then how in the world did an update introducing three new SLOT games affect a card game in any way? Something had to be inserted into the code to change the payouts. Why? And how did it happen?

I am going to try and get some kind of answer somewhere. First thing I'm going to do is write to Andrew at eCOGRA and ask him if someone can supply an explanation to those questions. While eCOGRA is not MG direct, they certainly certify/verify the majority of the MG stable, and should have some explanation for this, or be able to get one. I'm also going to try a few other people.

I'll let you know.

 

[Floyd GoWild]

Hi Everyone

Hi Everyone

As you guys probably noticed, The Bonus Pai Gow Poker Game have been corrected and this "bug" is now behind us.
I think that this is a rare case and Microgaming shouldn't be judged by this case alone as this is the first error of that kind I have ever seen with Microgaming and personally it didn't hurt my trust in this great company.

As for the people who played the game while it wasn't functioning correctly, I cannot say a lot about it except that from my point of view they will not lose the winnings they deserve and as always GoWild Casino will keep its players happy and free of worries

Yours,

Floyd W.
GoWild Gaming

 

[Jufo]

As for the people who played the game while it wasn't functioning correctly, I cannot say a lot about it except that from my point of view they will not lose the winnings they deserve and as always GoWild Casino will keep its players happy and free of worries

My GoWild account hasn't been reimbursed for the losses as of yet. Could you give a timeframe when that will happen?

 

[Mousey]

Hi Everyone

As you guys probably noticed, The Bonus Pai Gow Poker Game have been corrected and this "bug" is now behind us.
I think that this is a rare case and Microgaming shouldn't be judged by this case alone as this is the first error of that kind I have ever seen with Microgaming and personally it didn't hurt my trust in this great company.

As for the people who played the game while it wasn't functioning correctly, I cannot say a lot about it except that from my point of view they will not lose the winnings they deserve and as always GoWild Casino will keep its players happy and free of worries

Yours,

Floyd W.
GoWild Gaming

Thank you Floyd. But how did this happen in the first place?

First time I remember seeing a payout error from MG, too... But I do remember that one of their VP games had screwy autoplay holds. Was it 10's or Better? Something like that. That SNAFU didn't affect the game itself, it just screwed over players who trust(ed) MG autohold to play correctly.

The reason players like me would like to know how this happened is that we always sort of assumed that MG game basics stay the same (never mind the chronic download of updates -- sometimes all the games, or all the slots, even though nothing is supposedly changed). That, once released, they don't monkey with the games, in other words. So what did MG do that messed with the payouts on Pai Gow??

And, while I'd love to hear directly from MG, I'm not holding my breath, so we'll have to take what information we can get from second and third parties.

 

[Jufo]

Just a heads up that today I got reimbursement for the losses caused by this bug at Go Wild and Gnuf casino. Special kudos to Betway/Gnuf rep who gave me a little bit of extra for the inconvenience and informing them about the bug.

The reimbursement was done manually so it looks to me that you have to request it to get it, and not something that is put automatically to all affected accounts.

I was also told that MGS is going to give more details on what happened here with this incident.

 

[maphesto]

BUMP

I bumb this one now!

I don't want this thread to be forgotten. We want some answers!

There are at least two reps from MG casinos who knows about this thread and I hope that we don't have to contact MGS ourselves.

 

[Pinababy69]

I bumb this one now!

I don't want this thread to be forgotten. We want some answers!

There are at least two reps from MG casinos who knows about this thread and I hope that we don't have to contact MGS ourselves.

Hey Maphesto, I'm glad you bumped it, I had been going to post this morning as well. I didn't hear back from Andrew last week, to the two emails I sent. But this morning, I got "read" receipts for both of them.....so I'm thinking he was out of the office last week. I'll give him a day or two to catch up, and then email again. Not holding my breath, but it's worth a try. And I agree that the players deserve some answers....just as we would with any software provider.

I probably cut MG a bit more slack than others, solely because I have more trust in them than others...but I don't think that excuses them completely. It shouldn't be that hard for them to briefly explain what happened here.

 

[Tengil]

I also wait for an explanation. Mostly to see how lame it is And does the reimbursements have to be manually claimed? If so, why?

This is after all the same company that deceived Bryan about their poker fiascos.

 

[maphesto]

BUMP

Yet another week!

 

[Jufo]

I am also disappointed that we have heard nothing from MGS. This is what Betway rep told me by PM:

Hi,

I will be back in the office on Monday and have been told by MGS there would be an update on exactly what happened.

Hi,

I do apologize for the delay.
I am still working with MGS to get a final breakdown of everything.

Once I have the full update I will let everyone know what happened.

Note that this is a casino currently waiting to be accredited, so they should hold on to their promises. I also don't like the fact that I had to chase the reimbursements manually and it took considerable activity to get them: several e-mails, starting a thread here and full one week of waiting. I wonder if I would have ever been reimbursed if I had not posted here and made it look uncomfortable for the casinos in question. The overall feeling I got was: "Here are your losses back, now stop bothering us and forget this ever happened."

 

[betway support]

Hi all,

I apologize for the delay in posting.

As soon as I was notified of the problem by Jufo, I manually checked who was affected and refunded and notified them.
I also gave affected players a little extra as an apology. Some players we spoke to were not even aware of the problem and really appreciated us contacting them.

It is difficult for us to post on behalf of MGS however we always make sure we look after our players.

I hope you understand and I have sent a message off to Bryan to discuss this a little further.

Have a good weekend all.

Betway.com

 

[Nobunaga]

Pai Gow.

It seems that the issue with malfunctioning game is not only an issue at GoWild but across whole MG. I just repeated the exact same glitch at Gnuf:

The one goof up, had the casino losing money on a "push hand" and gave you the player money for "winning" on a push hand, even if it wasn't your bet minus commission.

This is a bad glitch that would hurt the players more, but would also show that this casino could be rogue too.

Nobunaga

 

[Nobunaga]

Online gambling.

When these situations happen, the people involved in the wrongdoing, should get their money back, and whatever credit is owed to them <their method is based on a credit system>.

Many crooks in this industry, getting away with fraud, working for these various companies, don't always take the players remarks seriously.

The players are online gamblers, faceless people, who can live thousands of miles away from where the online casino resides.

I find people who don't want to own up to their mistakes, are afraid of the following.

A powerful being that can't fully be explained.Being a Christian, I'll call this being God.

These people may not fear this being, but beings at a secular level.

The military/law enforcement.These people with their guns drawn, can be intimidating.

The court system.These people who like to fraud people, are afraid of the court process, both criminal and civil suits.

Many countries in the past, would go to war over poor business dealings.

The online gambling industry, needs to work on the respect towards the customer and stop disrespecting the customers.

Bad business will lead to other problems.

Why aren't there complaints being made to the European Union, who wants better business for her group of countries, and putting an end to the corruption that is happening to online gamblers?

It's like dealing business with the banks, who are having trouble financially, because of the economic crisis.

Banks make mistakes, and many times will blame the customer first, than to admit fault and honor their mistake.

This needs to change.

Nobunaga

 

[Jufo]

Hi all,

I apologize for the delay in posting.

As soon as I was notified of the problem by Jufo, I manually checked who was affected and refunded and notified them.
I also gave affected players a little extra as an apology. Some players we spoke to were not even aware of the problem and really appreciated us contacting them.

Hi, thanks for your reply. I agree that you dealt with this issue very professionally and I am happy to hear that you also checked the accounts of those who were affected but didn't notice the problem. But the reason why people want to hear a word from MGS is because this bug affected all casinos in the network, which means something like 50-100 casinos and there is a good chance that not all casinos did this same manual check for reimbusements like you did, so it's possible that there are still good number of players who are missing funds even without them realizing it.

 

[maphesto]

BUMP

Another week and no answer from MGS?

This is not a minor issue, we all now what happened when Tradition messed up and Rival casinos lost their accreditation.

Am I the only one who thinks that MGS are answering with silence just hoping for us to forget this?

 

[KasinoKing]

Another week and no answer from MGS?

This is not a minor issue, we all now what happened when Tradition messed up and Rival casinos lost their accreditation.

Am I the only one who thinks that MGS are answering with silence just hoping for us to forget this?

No.
If you bump this until the end of time, I doubt we'll ever get an answer.

It's just like when MG tweaked the jackpots on Mega Moolah in Sept 2008 and then tweaked them back about 3 months later; they never said why they made these changes, and IMO they never will.
It's so frustrating that all software providers treat all their players with such total contempt.
I mean, who pays their wages!

KK