Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating

[LRDell]

Doubling a problem everywhere

I have noticed this house edge when doubling at virtually every casino I play. Also, has anyone else noticed that the 8 card is almost unbeatable? Middle of the pack card, should have approx 50%/50% chance of beating it. HA! I have seen more 8s come up with four losing cards to choose from (at the ones where you get to see what your choices were). Innumerable times seeing 3 out of four lower.

A long time ago I posted some results showing not just the card dealt but an analysis of the choice cards given - showed a distinct house edge. Percentages got even worse on a second or third double. Do any of them actually claim that their doubling procedures are completely random?

 

[henryVIII]

So, what is the position on this?

They were caught with cheating sodtware. Is this wrong?

They were shown to have lied in their original statement to hide the facts. Is this wrong?

So, why after months of "not saying anything defamatory until they have had a chance to defend themselves" has their been no official condemnation.

Does the silence mean the Casinomeister website says it is OK for this to have happened or to happen again with absolutely no consequences other than a statement of "we messed up, we wont prove it" (after a first statement which was fraudulent).

I am confused as to what this site has decided. ior is it too much trouble to explain?

 

[kengam]

Bryan has been in the states for a while and I suppose he will be getting on this shortly. I am pretty sure he is aware of the seriousness of this matter.

 

[Casinomeister]

...Does the silence mean the Casinomeister website says it is OK for this to have happened or to happen again with absolutely no consequences other than a statement of "we messed up, we wont prove it" (after a first statement which was fraudulent).

I am confused as to what this site has decided. ior is it too much trouble to explain?

Actually I've decided to advocate incompetance and screw ups. I hope you don't mind.

 

[elscrabinda]

A long time ago I posted some results showing not just the card dealt but an analysis of the choice cards given - showed a distinct house edge. Percentages got even worse on a second or third double. Do any of them actually claim that their doubling procedures are completely random?

Would be very interesting to see these results if you still have them. Was that EH or a different casino and software platform?

 

[henryVIII]

Actually I've decided to advocate incompetance and screw ups. I hope you don't mind.

Its your website and you are, of course, totally at liberty to respond or not respond to players concerns about something.

I kind of get the feeling that asking too many questions about this issue is not welcomed.

Almost to the point, that to write anything negative about EH would mean walking a fine line and being banned.

I may be wrong, i dont know.

But...

As I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong) the casino was caught with software that was, well, cheating players. So, to allow the casino the benefit of any possibility of being treated unfairly, we need to look for intent.

I accept your point that many players would struggle to go that far. But, then again, it is an extremely serious thing to be caught doing.

They then issued a fraudulent statement (and that is a genuine opinion, it was fraudulent, I wont go off on a tangent and detail exactly why but can do if you wish) which is a very serious thing to say and I dont use the term lightly.

Those two things coming together are indeed extremely worrying for any player out there.

As i say, if you feel that is out of order then allow me to explain my reasoning/proof.

Their silence has also been very worrying. As any policeman/lawyer will tell you its invariably only those with something to hide who refuse to answer questions.

Im not meaning to disrespect you or the forum and hope you take these straight comments as they are intended.

 

[suzecat]

Actually I've decided to advocate incompetance and screw ups. I hope you don't mind.

I highly doubt the CM we all know and admire would advocate any such thing. In the course of really major screw-ups of all time, this one has surely earned its place in that history.

And life goes on..........

I am thinking that human error is a hurdle best met with compassion (for who knows when they will need that compassion shown after their own major screw-up?) I am not advocating a "forgive and forget" mentality in any way. Forgive yes....but be smart, remember history and get out there and have some freakin' fun!

 

[Linus]

Henry,

Many players - perhaps most of us - suspect we've been cheated at one time or another. It's sort of the ugly troll, lurking in the back of your mind. ("What, dealer blackjack, again?!? That can't be right!")

So when something like this happens, it's really a big deal, because it confirms some pretty ugly fears.

I'd submit the question players really want answered isn't, "I wonder how this happened," or "Could this be an honest mistake," but, "How can I be sure this won't happen again."

So when Spearmaster says, "This was just a case of simple incompetence," well... it may be true, but it doesn't really answer the question.

If anything, it introduces an even uglier one. "If this much possible by accident & incompetence, how much more could a competent casino that was trying to get away with it accomplish?"

It's an ugly thought, and I don't think you'll find an answer here.

 

[nafanny29]

Have they introduced the new "weighted double up" feature yet? Must have been almost ready to go live when they put the code into the VP double up feature slightly to early.

 

[GrandMaster]

If anything, it introduces an even uglier one. "If this much possible by accident & incompetence, how much more could a competent casino that was trying to get away with it accomplish?"

It's an ugly thought, and I don't think you'll find an answer here.

I have seen so many examples of incompetence that I am not really concerned about evil and competent casinos.

 

[Linus]

I have seen so many examples of incompetence that I am not really concerned about evil and competent casinos.

LOL. So it's only the evil incompetent ones you're worried about?


Seriously, though, that's a question that's been bothering me... surely they can't be as incompetent as they seem? That so many people are handling so much money, without being able to do simple math, spell, or write a coherent sentence, is amazing to me.

 

[henryVIII]

I highly doubt the CM we all know and admire would advocate any such thing. In the course of really major screw-ups of all time, this one has surely earned its place in that history.

And life goes on..........

I am thinking that human error is a hurdle best met with compassion (for who knows when they will need that compassion shown after their own major screw-up?) I am not advocating a "forgive and forget" mentality in any way. Forgive yes....but be smart, remember history and get out there and have some freakin' fun!

I hear what you are saying but I think you are being overly generous.

Remember, if not for the lawnet, this would not have been a victimless episode.

Real players were losing real money hand over fist into the casino.
This is the real reason its important ... its not an academic debate or an anecdote. (Im not saying you think that there suzecat).

The very same people who did this are taking players deposits as we speak.

However, such a generous response would have to assume a complete lack of intent. It is here that their first response is crucial in getting a true picture of their intent is vital.

Much like if the police have caught someone committing a crime they will still question him. And his answers will be extremely important. If he is found with evidence showing he did the deed and then his "alibi" is shown to be false and then he refuses to answer any more questions, then do you think the police should show such people compassion and drop it.

Most people would expect consequences.

And thats what I am asking really.

In my opnion the software is a non-issue. It wasnt even mentioned for, what, a week? two weeks? (I cant remember) and then suddenly it appears as the reason.

It could only ever prove something which "could" have happened ... if you like (after their initial statement) its their second "alibi" and as the first was one has been shown to be, well, a lie to be perfectly frank then surely to view this "defence" with a huge amount of suspicion can only be common sense or the most prudent approach when dealing with such large amounts of money.

 

[suzecat]

I hear what you are saying but I think you are being overly generous.

Remember, if not for the lawnet, this would not have been a victimless episode.

Whoa big fella

Somewhere in these many pages I did post that thelawnet did us a great service by bringing his experience to the forum.

What I was tactfully attempting to say previously was that forgiving is OK (we are all going to screw up sometime) but forgetting is not IMHO what a smart person would do. Until the rules of life change and free choice is stripped from us all, we are still going to have to remember the past or be doomed to repeat it.

If you are looking for a balls-out, no-holds-barred response from me, you will not find it in this forum. Look in other forums where that is the modus operandi and you will find me spewing with the best of 'em!

 

[henryVIII]

Whoa big fella

Somewhere in these many pages I did post that thelawnet did us a great service by bringing his experience to the forum.

What I was tactfully attempting to say previously was that forgiving is OK (we are all going to screw up sometime) but forgetting is not IMHO what a smart person would do. Until the rules of life change and free choice is stripped from us all, we are still going to have to remember the past or be doomed to repeat it.

If you are looking for a balls-out, no-holds-barred response from me, you will not find it in this forum. Look in other forums where that is the modus operandi and you will find me spewing with the best of 'em!

After the first line, it wasnt all posted with you specifically in mind ... it was more of an open forum post to all readers. Im sorry if it upset you but I am at a loss why ... I dont think there was anything personal or insulting in there whatsoever ... other than a differing opinion.

If I have insulted you can you help me and be a bit more specific as to exactly how and then I will be able to apologise properly.

It was my post you were referring to or have I misunderstood something?

 

[suzecat]

After the first line, it wasnt all posted with you specifically in mind ... it was more of an open forum post to all readers. Im sorry if it upset you but I am at a loss why ... I dont think there was anything personal or insulting in there whatsoever ... other than a differing opinion.

If I have insulted you can you help me and be a bit more specific as to exactly how and then I will be able to apologise properly.

It was my post you were referring to or have I misunderstood something?)

Well, there is that Anne Bolin thing Henry.......but let's let that go for now!

Seriously, no harm. no foul. BTW, whenever a post is quoted, I have taken that to mean that the reply that follows is directed specifically at the quoted material. Maybe I need my meds changed?

 

[henryVIII]

 

[kengam]

so what is the verdict here. Are they going to be rogued?

 

[kengam]

so thats it? A controversial thread with 37,000 views and it is being swept under the rug and all is forgiven? Bryan?

 

[soflat]

I hope it is not swept under the rug.

 

[bossplayer]

Why do I agree with the people with the negative reputation points here?

 

[Devo11]

Just like to see this thread in plain view for all to see. Dont worry EH, people will be doing this till Odds On is run out of the industry or goes broke!!

 

[Casinomeister]

so thats it? A controversial thread with 37,000 views and it is being swept under the rug and all is forgiven? Bryan?

It's not being swept under the rug. It's still here isn't it?? You want action? Go complain to their licensing agency. They are the ones that should have been involved in this.

Roguing is not the answer, in fact that would be a stupid thing to do since I don't believe that this was intentional at all. It was an error albeit a huge one. I've already explained why their first statement was messed up, and Spear and the Wiz have tried to illustrate what happened with the software.

The rogue section is useful to warn players not to play at certain casinos because they lack business ethics, have cheating software, participate in unethical marketing practices - these sorts of things. To place EH there would devalue the "rogue section" since anyone who makes a mistake would be a candidate. So I need another solution on how to approach this in a fair manner.

I was gone for a few weeks and I'd apprectiate some space to deal with this effectively. Bumping up the thread at a whim is not the way to go here. Rest assured I haven't forgotten about EH.

 

[kengam]

so I have negative reputation points now? How did that happen all of a sudden?

The rogue section is useful to warn players not to play at certain casinos because they lack business ethics, have cheating software, participate in unethical marketing practices - these sorts of things. To place EH there would devalue the "rogue section" since anyone who makes a mistake would be a candidate.

so having a proven cheat whether deliberate or not would devalue the rogue section? You have to be kidding me. Did you expect anyone to admit they cheated? I guess you don't value your posters' opinions. The large majority feel that it was deliberate. No, we don't know them personally or have meals and chats with them, but we do play in these places and we can make up our own minds based on what happened. I guess you can rogue whoever you want, but there has never been a better candidate, especially considering the thoughts of your own forum members.

 

[Casinomeister]

so I have negative reputation points now? How did that happen all of a sudden?

You can always access your User CP and view your rep points history there.

so having a proven cheat whether deliberate or not would devalue the rogue section? You have to be kidding me. Did you expect anyone to admit they cheated? I guess you don't value your posters' opinions. The large majority feel that it was deliberate.

Just because you feel that they did it deliberately doesn't mean that it's so. Quit being so hysterical.

I'm taking what I have on hand and going from there. If I (or anyone for that matter) makes a statement that they purposely cheated their customers...well you'd have to be be an ignoramus not to be able to back this up with lawyers at your side. This is serious business, not some funny ha ha games on someone's website. I take this shit seriously.

No, we don't know them personally or have meals and chats with them, but we do play in these places and we can make up our own minds based on what happened. I guess you can rogue whoever you want, but there has never been a better candidate, especially considering the thoughts of your own forum members.

I don't know them personally and I don't appreciate the insinuations that I'm on the take. I am in a position to meet with them - food or no food. And please don't play the "you don't care about the player's opinions" card. I'm going with what I know, and no one has convinced me that EH deliberately set this up to cheat their players. Face to face meetings or not. I am unmoved with this.

FACT - I am underwhelmed on how this was handled - especially with the follow-up, and in the manner that Spearmaster's integrity was attacked by you and others. But I will not put my reputation on the line by stating "I think EH tried to cheat players because kengam (or insert anonymous user name here) feels that they are crooks - off to the rogue pit you go!" Sorry, but it has not been proven that this software provider had the intention to "cheat" its players.

I'm here to provide information and I expect members to make decisions for themselves. I don't need a lynch-mob trying to twist my arm and telling me what to think.

 

[TheBloke]

CM - I do not believe that they deliberately cheated, and I still think they should be rogued:

• Their quality control is non-existant or so poor that it allowed unfinished, untested and faulty code to make it to their production system
• This code persisted for two weeks without being picked up
• Their initial statement on the matter was patently false
• They have refused to respond to numerous requests from numerous people (not just the zealots like kengam) to make further comment and/or release further logs

I believe that other groups have been rogued for less - for example Grand Prive. I would play at Grand Prive 1000 times over before I played here again. I simply cannot conceive of such dire technical processes being allowed at a major casino group. I worked in both coding and quality assurance for some years, and a cock-up of this magnitude would have had vast repercussions for my company. I do not think it is right for EH to get away so lightly.

Personally I feel that they should be rogued, and anything less than Not Recommended is a travesty.

I just want to re-iterate that I DO NOT think they cheated, and that I feel the above based purely on their farsical approach to quality control; as you say, a casino is a serious business. They have made an unforgivable mistake which highlights their disinterest in producing a quality product, and they must be punished for it.