Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating

[The Dude]

...I believe that other groups have been rogued for less - for example Grand Prive. I would play at Grand Prive 1000 times over before I played here again. I simply cannot conceive of such dire technical processes being allowed at a major casino group. I worked in both coding and quality assurance for some years, and a cock-up of this magnitude would have had vast repercussions for my company. I do not think it is right for EH to get away so lightly.

Personally I feel that they should be rogued, and anything less than Not Recommended is a travesty.

I just want to re-iterate that I DO NOT think they cheated, and that I feel the above based purely on their farsical approach to quality control; as you say, a casino is a serious business. They have made an unforgivable mistake which highlights their disinterest in producing a quality product, and they must be punished for it.

I'm taking everything into consideration - fear not. I've been pretty busy with a number of issues at the moment, but this still does have my attention. I haven't forgotten about it.

I just get a little miffed when I'm being accused of sweeping stuff under the rug.

 

[mitch]

So I need another solution on how to approach this in a fair manner.

I was gone for a few weeks and I'd apprectiate some space to deal with this effectively.

Bryan

You could perhaps have a section named 'Not Proven' as from Scottish Law.

"In modern use, the not proven verdict suggests a strong possibility of guilt but not enough evidence to convict. A person receiving a not proven verdict is not fined or imprisoned, and is not subject to double jeopardy. The real effect of a not proven verdict is stigma for the acquitted person. The verdict can tarnish a person's reputation, as when socialite Madeleine Smith was charged with murder in nineteenth century Glasgow but acquitted with a not proven verdict."

If the Casino subsequently provided you with sufficient evidence to convince you that it was a totally innocent mistake, eg access to previous logs etc, then you could remove them.

This would at least put the onus on them to do more than they have done so far to reply to customers realistic concerns. It would be in their own hands.

Mitch

 

[kengam]

So let me get this straight. I have received 4 negative reputation marks from Spearmaster and 4 negative reputation marks from Casinomeister. They were all given due to this thread. What kind of forum are you running here? I speak my mind and because you both do not agree then you try to tarnish my reputation. That is real classy.

Many posters here know me well enough to know that I do not deserve negative reputation points. I have been an avid poster on many forums for many years. I post with extensive experiences in online game play, including dispute resolution. I was an original Online Players Association board member, back when we were honorable. I have helped many players over the years collect from bad eggs. I have helped spread the word (many times YOUR word) when a casino has turned rogue and have done my part in trying to keep players' money safe.

Spearmaster has treated me as badly as he was treated. You have stood in the dark and remained relatively silent. I am sorry that he chose to defend this group. I truly believe that if lawnet didn't expose them with this thread then English Harbour would still be cheating players. You may or may not believe that, but your membership sure does.

 

[henryVIII]

Just because you feel that they did it deliberately doesn't mean that it's so. Quit being so hysterical.

Its not just kengam though. It is the overwhelming majority of neutral people on the forum. A poll here had something like only 6 out of 64 people thought EH had simply made an error.

So, in purely factual terms, I dont think such insinuations that posters like kengam are deranged or hysterical really holds up.

On the contrary, his opinion would appear to be one of the overwhelming majority.

 

[spearmaster]

So let me get this straight. I have received 4 negative reputation marks from Spearmaster and 4 negative reputation marks from Casinomeister. They were all given due to this thread. What kind of forum are you running here? I speak my mind and because you both do not agree then you try to tarnish my reputation. That is real classy.

What a load of shit. You had the right to give me negative rep just as much as I have to give you negative rep for posts I disapprove of. So does everyone else. Talk about trying to tarnish one's reputation - you, sir, are full of it.

Many posters here know me well enough to know that I do not deserve negative reputation points. I have been an avid poster on many forums for many years. I post with extensive experiences in online game play, including dispute resolution. I was an original Online Players Association board member, back when we were honorable. I have helped many players over the years collect from bad eggs. I have helped spread the word (many times YOUR word) when a casino has turned rogue and have done my part in trying to keep players' money safe.

Then let said posters give you positive reputation points. As for original OPA member when it was reputable.... just because the OPA was reputable does NOT make you reputable. Helping players? I ain't seen a thing. Yet I sit here and take all sorts of shit from both sides, players and casinos, because I dare to call it as I see it PUBLICLY so that everyone can determine for themselves whether I am reputable or honorable OR NOT.

Spearmaster has treated me as badly as he was treated. You have stood in the dark and remained relatively silent. I am sorry that he chose to defend this group. I truly believe that if lawnet didn't expose them with this thread then English Harbour would still be cheating players. You may or may not believe that, but your membership sure does.

Waaahh! Crybaby. Since when do you speak for "the membership"?

Try speaking for YOURSELF ALONE in the future. And when you do so, back it up with evidence, not this "I know it for a fact" BS.

 

[spearmaster]

On the contrary, his opinion would appear to be one of the overwhelming majority.

It's called hysteria - the world is coming to an end... the Martians are invading... blah blah blah - without one iota of evidence produced to support his claim that EH were cheating in the PAST.

This is a witch hunt - make no mistake about it. You simply WON'T believe the conclusion because you are sympathetic to people crying wolf.

The issue at hand was dealt with - and my conclusion was that the error was NOT deliberate.

Any other issues - produce some evidence and I will look into it, as I have been saying throughout this thread and others. No evidence? Don't presume to waste my time or anyone else's. What we do is a service for the community at large, voluntarily, for NO CHARGE, for no compensation or even a requirement for thanks. Because it is voluntary and free, I do not think that any of you have the right to make unusual demands on our time - and that is what this amounts to.

I am now done with this thread. I do not have the time or inclination to further deal with unsubstantiated claims.

 

[kengam]

Spearmaster, what is your problem? Why do you continue to act childish? I did not give you negative rep points because I felt you had a right to post how you felt. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am going to click on a negative mark.


I do not speak for the membership. This poll does, however:


View Poll Results: Is English Harbour guilty of cheating on double up?

I am satisfied with their defense...only a bug 6 9.84%
Cheated in April and most likely cheated before 39 63.93%
Only cheated once, but was caught 3 4.92%
still unsure 13 21.31%

 

[mitch]

Kengam

I do think Spear has expressed himself a little strongly in his last couple of posts.

However, I do know why he is pissed off with you particularly though. It was your fairly constant attacks on his integrity earlier in this thread. I must admit I did go in to give you some negative rep myself because of this but found that the Meister had locked the thread. Since it reopened you have calmed down on this aspect.

Having opinions is one thing, even though, as Spear says, you would hope that such opinions are expressed based on some sort of empirical evidence rather than prejudice or seperate agenda. However, this is a fairly flexible forum and each to his own I suppose.

Questioning members integrity is another issue entirely and should always come with some evidence to back it up.

Mitch

 

[soflat]

The issue at hand was dealt with - and my conclusion was that the error was NOT deliberate.

I thought Casinomeister was still considering it. He just posted that today. The issue is not just about intent, and thankfully it is not closed.

Spearmaster, you did a good job. But you and The Wizard of Odds stopped short (the Wizard stopped WAY short, at least you followed through on what you said you were going to do).

Our last hope is Casinomeister. Please don't start bickering about it again. Not all of us are satisfied with what has happened yet, and nobody is demanding that you do anything further.

 

[kengam]

I sit here and take all sorts of shit from both sides, players and casinos, because I dare to call it as I see it PUBLICLY so that everyone can determine for themselves whether I am reputable or honorable OR NOT.

Don't take everything so personally. Your reputation or honor is not an issue here.

 

[henryVIII]

Last time there was an outburst like those above the thread was closed down.

I am guessing but is this the objective again? Close the thread and it will go away?

 

[henryVIII]

Oh, and guess what ... I have recieved negative rep points from CM and spearmaster. The only two people who have given me negative points (thank you to others for the positive ones). Like I care but ... cant anyone state an opinion which is their own not the site's owner?

Feels like I am at school again.

Id rather discuss the case as it is an extremely serious one.

 

[The Dude]

Last time there was an outburst like those above the thread was closed down.

I am guessing but is this the objective again? Close the thread and it will go away?

HenryVIII - will you please just shut up. Thank you.

So let me get this straight. I have received 4 negative reputation marks from Spearmaster and 4 negative reputation marks from Casinomeister. They were all given due to this thread. What kind of forum are you running here? I speak my mind and because you both do not agree then you try to tarnish my reputation. That is real classy.

Kengam - you receive rep points + and - for whatever you post. I chose two posts that I felt were out of line. Spear nailed you for two postings, and as Mitch admitted he nailed you as well. This is our right as members of the forum. If you have a problem with what I'm stating in the forum, you can nail me all you want. That is your right as well.

Through out this thread you have been aggressive, at times insulting, and yes - acting hysterical. I am willing to accept your rants because I know that you are emotional about this situation, but as soon as you start attacking members personally, I draw the line. There is no reason why this discussion can't be held without flipping out on each other. You act as if we're running the damn casino. Just chill. Thank you.

And that goes for everyone.

 

[The Dude]

Oh, and guess what ... I have recieved negative rep points from CM and spearmaster. The only two people who have given me negative points (thank you to others for the positive ones). Like I care but ... cant anyone state an opinion which is their own not the site's owner?...

The comment that I gave you neg points for was in the Fortune Lounge thread. I felt it was out of line - it had nothing to do with this one. Spearmaster is not the site owner by the way.

 

[kengam]

I apologize to all the members of this forum for getting out of hand with some of these posts. I have issues with English Harbour/Odds ON and had been skeptical about their integrity after losing a lot of dough playing video poker and using the double up feature over the past few years. When my attention was first brought to this thread I was sure that the same was happening to TheLawnet as happened to me and my colleagues. This is what caused me to be angry and post with haste. I am sure that a full audit into this double up game over the past few years would reveal that the game was gaffed early on.

We played the double up extensively as a group and surely our stats alone would put a dent in the overall numbers at this game even if it wasn't happening to everyone. My group concluded that they had caught on to the practice of using double up for advantaged play. We thought it was likely that advantaged gamblers were being targeted directly and a fix was placed into the double up game. All our numbers as far as frequency of royals, 4oak, flush, etc were all within parameters of a fair and random game. Amazingly close to expectation in fact.

The double up stats were a different story altogether. Finding them in use of a gaffed double up game back in April should have been enough to warrant a full investigation and complete audit. I am not at liberty to provide the complete stats of my team. I shouldn't have to. Many of those involved have moved on and some are still very actively involved in advantaged gambling to not want to draw attention to theirselves. The amount lost in this venture was only a fraction of what some are earning today.

I have always respected Spearmaster. I do not think he handled this issue very well, however. I do not understand why he did not push for them to release numbers from year's past. He seemed to be on their defensive side from day one. In my opinion, he gave them a reason to be silent and also gave them a reason for not releasing more information as far as past history of the double up game. I do not think he meant to harm our chances at the truth, but it happened anyway IMO.

As far as reputation points, I do not care that I am in the negative. Spear and Bryan can take away 15 points each time as they have. I tend to think that only looks worse for them. We do not have this power.


Administrators and moderators (Simmo!, Spearmaster, Vortran, and Casinomeister) can give or take away 15 points.

 

[The Dude]

I apologize to all the members of this forum for getting out of hand with some of these posts. I have issues with English Harbour/Odds ON and had been skeptical about their integrity after losing a lot of dough playing video poker and using the double up feature over the past few years. When my attention was first brought to this thread I was sure that the same was happening to TheLawnet as happened to me and my colleagues. This is what caused me to be angry and post with haste. I am sure that a full audit into this double up game over the past few years would reveal that the game was gaffed early on.

We played the double up extensively as a group and surely our stats alone would put a dent in the overall numbers at this game even if it wasn't happening to everyone. My group concluded that they had caught on to the practice of using double up for advantaged play. We thought it was likely that advantaged gamblers were being targeted directly and a fix was placed into the double up game. All our numbers as far as frequency of royals, 4oak, flush, etc were all within parameters of a fair and random game. Amazingly close to expectation in fact.

The double up stats were a different story altogether. Finding them in use of a gaffed double up game back in April should have been enough to warrant a full investigation and complete audit. I am not at liberty to provide the complete stats of my team. I shouldn't have to. Many of those involved have moved on and some are still very actively involved in advantaged gambling to not want to draw attention to theirselves. The amount lost in this venture was only a fraction of what some are earning today.

I have always respected Spearmaster. I do not think he handled this issue very well, however. I do not understand why he did not push for them to release numbers from year's past. He seemed to be on their defensive side from day one. In my opinion, he gave them a reason to be silent and also gave them a reason for not releasing more information as far as past history of the double up game. I do not think he meant to harm our chances at the truth, but it happened anyway IMO.

As far as reputation points, I do not care that I am in the negative. Spear and Bryan can take away 15 points each time as they have. I tend to think that only looks worse for them. We do not have this power.


Administrators and moderators (Simmo!, Spearmaster, Vortran, and Casinomeister) can give or take away 15 points.

Thanks Kengam. I think that was the first posting in a while that I could read through without getting riled up

I understand your frustration with the previous years, but this wasn't what the issue at hand was. We were looking at specifically what had happened at the beginning of this thread.

As for the rep points thing. The mods have a power of 15 so that it can't be abused. Rep points are calculated by how long you've been a member, how often you post, how many rep points others give you etc. etc. Oldtimers have way more power than others. If I didn't set mine at 15, it would be 80 something, Spear's is 22 if he wasn't a moderator, Jetset's is 58, etc. There is more info here on this:
Link Outdated / Removed

 

[mitch]

As far as reputation points, I do not care that I am in the negative. Spear and Bryan can take away 15 points each time as they have. I tend to think that only looks worse for them. We do not have this power.


Administrators and moderators (Simmo!, Spearmaster, Vortran, and Casinomeister) can give or take away 15 points.

Your wrong here Kengam, a lot of members do have this power and to a much greater extent than Spear, Meister et al.

Better not get on the wrong side of Jetset for instance -58 if you do.

Mitch

(EDIT.......Just seen that Bryan posted above whilst I was writing this.)

 

[Slotster!]

Better not get on the wrong side of Jetset for instance -58 if you do.

How does that work then?

I've always said Jetset was a GREAT bloke! Salt of the earth! Lovely lovely chap!

 

[kengam]

I understand your frustration with the previous years, but this wasn't what the issue at hand was. We were looking at specifically what had happened at the beginning of this thread.

I think it is very much related to the issue at the beginning of this thread. I do not see how anyone can think it isn't relevant. In order to prove it was an honest mistake EH first must prove that it only happened in April like they said. How are we to know that this honest mistake didn't occur in the past? Why would you take their word for it? If we took their original word then the bug still would be uindiscovered.

 

[Linus]

Bloke - nice post, sir. You said it better than I could.

CM - I do not believe that they deliberately cheated, and I still think they should be rogued:

• Their quality control is non-existant or so poor that it allowed unfinished, untested and faulty code to make it to their production system
• This code persisted for two weeks without being picked up
• Their initial statement on the matter was patently false
• They have refused to respond to numerous requests from numerous people (not just the zealots like kengam) to make further comment and/or release further logs

I believe that other groups have been rogued for less - for example Grand Prive. I would play at Grand Prive 1000 times over before I played here again. I simply cannot conceive of such dire technical processes being allowed at a major casino group. I worked in both coding and quality assurance for some years, and a cock-up of this magnitude would have had vast repercussions for my company. I do not think it is right for EH to get away so lightly.

Personally I feel that they should be rogued, and anything less than Not Recommended is a travesty.

I just want to re-iterate that I DO NOT think they cheated, and that I feel the above based purely on their farsical approach to quality control; as you say, a casino is a serious business. They have made an unforgivable mistake which highlights their disinterest in producing a quality product, and they must be punished for it.

 

[Linus]

Kengam - I looked up "Online Player's Association." It looked like any other banner farm, to me. Are you saying they were legit at one time?

 

[The Dude]

Kengam - I looked up "Online Player's Association." It looked like any other banner farm, to me. Are you saying they were legit at one time?

Some threads/links to check out:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/about-online-players-association.7458/

https://casinomeister.com/static/newsletter/2003/10january2003.html

 

[suzecat]

How does that work then?

I've always said Jetset was a GREAT bloke! Salt of the earth! Lovely lovely chap!

Seconded!

 

[henryVIII]

Anyway, meanwhile, a casino with cheating software and false audit claims continues to roll on ...

 

[suzecat]

Anyway, meanwhile, a casino with cheating software and false audit claims continues to roll on ...

IMO the effect of these events on EH's bottom line (which history suggests will not be made public) is a good result and one that is satisfactory. I can feel the dissent as I type and since we can't cyber draw/quarter or tar/feather, we are left to vote for/against EH with our feet -- same as any other software developer/provider.