LadyDream.com - how slots work

[FiftyPercent]

Your source of this information, I might ask?

*ALL* slots must use a random number generator. The fact that payout tables can be modified or programmed has absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the random number generator. Any game or device where the results are predetermined would likely be in violation of the law in any jurisdiction in the world.

I hereby refer you to someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am in the world of gambling - my friend, the Wizard of Odds.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Todd - please do me a favor - learn what you're talking about before you rush to judge others. Your experience in the search space won't earn you any credits here.

Judging? Hmmm, I wasn't judging at all. Judging, in my opinion would be someone who arbitrarily assumes a casino is "rigged".

My statements are a matter of fact. I offer you the same advice to you that you have given me. When you peel the layer of the onion you will find that all slots are pattern based and not random.

Your "wizard" appears to make some sense however contradicts the fact that by the mere introduction of patterns or modified programs to any slots negates the random number generation.

This is not a debate, just fact.

Moreover, I am not looking for an argument; I am merely defending our casinos ethics and practices against your statement of a "rigged" casino.

Thank you for your diligence regarding this matter.

 

[spearmaster]

"My" Wizard?

LMFAO.

The Wizard of Odds is not only a licensed actuary, but an associate professor at UNLV, and recognized by the online and offline gambling worlds as an expert in his field.

You clearly do not have the experience in gambling that he does, nor the knowledge - so please, spare us from your uninformed "facts". Either you are right, or the Wizard is right.

Frankly, I know who I would trust.

 

[winbig]

Again, the point

As Vinyl and everyone else here is trying to point out, you should be up front with people and let them know that PLAY MODE IS NOT THE SAME AS REAL MODE and of course they're going to win more. Instead, you hide it. Unless they look in an obscure place on your website (2 links deep starting with the "help" link on the main page), they will not know any different. Instead, someone that doesn't know any better will think "Wow, these slots are loose, let me deposit!!! I can't lose!!". This, in my eyes, is very unethical. Again, as Vinyl pointed out, there should be some sort of disclaimer. Not everyone reads through the entire website, and of course this will be missed most all of the time.

To sum it all up, I agree with the majority that non-RNG slots can be, and indeed are "fixed".

 

[FiftyPercent]

Thank You!

Ok Group,

Thank you for your time and energy on all of this. There is certainly some fine, intelligent, and mildly friendly folks here, which I have enjoyed communicating with.

If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask. I can be found at todd@cashwave.com, and at most of the upcoming industry events. Please stop buy at the CashWave booth to say hello or just give me your opinions/information on ways to improve.:notworthy

Please accept my apologies if any of my forum communications appeared to be anything but factual and mild mannered. Sometimes it is difficult to express points of view via these forums, especially when you are one of the newbies to the group.

 

[GrandMaster]

I think the Wizard is "only" an adjunct professor, but it does not change the fact the he is one of the top experts on the mathematical aspects of gambling, and he has designed several slot machines. so he should know how they work.

 

[spearmaster]

If you wouldn't mind taking a look at some of the other threads, you will find that newbies are welcome unless they are spammers - and that their points of view are also welcome, provided they are factual or clearly expressed as an opinion.

In your case, you are also welcome here - but please do not express something as fact when it is simply not so. Most members here hold casino representatives to a very high standard so the more forthcoming and helpful and factual you are, the more you will be appreciated. Your opinions, like everyone else's will generally be welcomed as well.

 

[spearmaster]

Grandmaster is right. This is the bio as taken directly from the Wizard's site. I should have looked first, but I knew it was something beginning with an "A" LOL...

The Wizard of Odds is Michael Shackleford, A.S.A., a professional actuary who has made a career of analyzing casino games. He runs the numbers on new games for casinos and game developers and has helped design many of the popular slot machines on the Internet. He is currently an Adjunct Professor of Casino Math at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, a former contributing editor to Casino Player magazine, and the author of the book Gambling 102, recently published by Huntington Press. The Wizard's landmark research into the actual returns of slot machines on the Las Vegas strip garnered international attention in 2002, and he has appeared numerous times on national television as a recognized expert on gambling strategy.

 

[FiftyPercent]

RGN / Program

Almost instantly after the player presses spin the machine has determined where the reels are going to stop. It then lets them spin a few seconds for entertainment value and then will exactly where programmed to.

They are designed to pay off a particular percentage.

From the Wizard Himself.

RGN is the premise in which slots are to adhere to, however they are then programmed to pay out a certain percentage!

 

[FiftyPercent]

More Helpful Info

From

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

"When a casino orders a slot machine from the manufacturer, it specifies the payback it wants for that machine, which generally ranges from 90-98%."

Question: How can the manufacture specify the payback?

Ans: They are programmed!

"That may seem like a good deal, but it's not. If you're getting back 95% of your money, that means the casino is keeping 5%. If you play a dollar machine, two coins at a time, 800 spins an hour, for one hour, you're putting $1600 into the machine. The casino's 5% take means you lose $80/hr. on average. Ouch."

"This is one reason that casinos don't cheat with slot machines: They don't have to. The odds are so overwhelmingly bad, all they have to do is put the machine on the floor and rake in the money."

They should have a whole "Truth Hurts" section like the tobacco companies. The truth is, the odds are always in favor of the casino.

From my last lesson in Vegas during CES.....I played the roulette table balck for $100 because it went 7 times red. I lost. I did it again. I lost. I did it again. I lost. I went to the cash machine and came back, the ball was still red at number 15. I did it again, 16 red! I stopped. But before the streak ended it went 23 times red.

Can anyone figure out the moral of this factual story?

 

[Slotster!]

From From my last lesson in Vegas duri... How many times can a coin land on heads?...

 

[spearmaster]

Your original claim was that a pattern can be detected. At both the Wizard of Odds and Vegas Reference, you are told that each EVENT is random - and that future events do NOT take into account past events.

A pattern implies that either past events ARE taken into account, or that you have fixed a pattern of "win, lose, lose, lose, win BIG, lose, lose, lose, lose, lose, win, lose..." - ie. a predetermined event.

Either way, this is called a RIGGED game. By law, in Vegas or any other respectable jurisdiction, slots MUST be random and CANNOT be rigged. They MAY have variable states but no event can be predetermined - notice that the result is determined AFTER the button is pressed, or the handle pulled.

Does anyone but Todd *not* understand what is being described here?

 

[Slotmachine]

“Almost instantly after the player presses spin the machine has determined where the reels are going to stop. It then lets them spin a few seconds for entertainment value and then will exactly where programmed to. “

“They are designed to pay off a particular percentage.”

From the Wizard Himself.

RGN is the premise in which slots are to adhere to, however they are then programmed to pay out a certain percentage!

Hi FiftyPercent,

First of all, on my own behalf, let me welcome you to this forum, we are always keen to hear from the casino representatives and owners, and we value your input. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks posting here, like Jetset, Spearmaster, the Meister and others, so you're bound to get some flak if you post uninformed comments. Hey, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make yous stronger.

Then to the issue at hand: Your above comment reveals that you haven't grasped the most basic of principles behind the workings of fair slot machines. It is pretty obvious that you do not understand what the Wizard is saying. Maybe it's worth repeating here that the fact that the machines are designed to pay off a particular percentage does not contradict with their randomness at all. The virtual reels are designed so that if you spin the slot a 1,000,000 (or so) times, and if each spin is completely random, the average overall payout after those spins has a high probability of approaching the intended payout, say 95%. Each combination of reel positions has a certain probability of appearing, and furthermore, in a non-weighted slot machine, each combination of reel positions has exactly the same probability of appearing. A certain combination that results in a jackpot has exactly the same probability of happening than any other combination. The probability of actually hitting the jackpot is small, because there is only one combination that results in the jackpot, and the number of non-jackpot combinations is very large.

Just like dice. The dice are designed such that a throw of dice has a certain probability of resulting in, say, an odd number, and that probability is 50%. It's still random, but betting on odds a million times is extremely likely to provide a payout of about 50%. So you could say they are designed to give that payout for an odds bet. Slots are not (supposed to be) any different.

If you look at some PWC payout reports of reputable MG casinos, you will see that one month the slots return 93%, some other month over 100%. This is in concordance with randomness. Now if you see 98% every month, then it's time to get suspicious about the slots - that would indicate a rigged game.

The Wizard knows his stuff. He says the slots are random. I'm with the Wizard, and I won't touch any slots which have "patterns". Those slots are not random, therefore not fair, therefore rigged.

Cheers,
SM

 

[GrandMaster]

FiftyPercent, you still don't get it. Yes, slots are designed to pay out a certain percentage, but this does not mean that the machine needs to keep track whether it has been tight or loose and adjust for it. If the spins are independent, the Law of Large Numbers will ensure that in the long term the actual payout will be close to the theoretical payout.

 

[spearmaster]

designed (NOT programmed)

Almost.. LOL...

Machines *are* programmed... however, the results themselves are NOT programmed or pre-determined... because the result is generated by a RANDOM number.

A certain combination that results in a jackpot has exactly the same probability of happening than any other combination. The probability of actually hitting the jackpot is small, because there is only one combination that results in the jackpot, and the number of non-jackpot combinations is very large.

This is exactly it - even though technically this is still programming

 

[Slotmachine]

Almost.. LOL...
Machines *are* programmed... however, the results themselves are NOT programmed or pre-determined... because the result is generated by a RANDOM number.

Thanks. I edited my post. Anyway, you wouldn't say dice are programmed, and there is no difference between dice and slots as far as their fundamental principles are concerned (random result), so I wanted to emphasize randomness by shunning the word "programmed", even though it is technically the correct term as you say.

Cheers,
SM

 

[FiftyPercent]

Surrender

Ok! :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Thank you all for clarifying, although my head is about to explode. Note, I am not the casino program enginer, I just play one on TV. Saying that "I'll stick to what I know from now on", still won't make these types of dicussions go away seeing that semantics play a part, and I always believe what I am saying is correct. I do have a due diligence incentive every time I post (which is this group), but that does not guarantee being correct every time either.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's time on this.

We do attract a lot of slot players with a very high percentage of retention. I beleive it is because of our aggressive and frequent bonuses, in addition to the high quality flash games. Part of the mission for both the marketing group and the operations group is to keep our players happy. Without happy players, there is nothing.

 

[jamiester]

If your slots are preprogrammed to a pattern it is good that you admit it!

To say that ALL online slots are so is a contentious issue. Microgaming, for example, have gone to great lengths to assure players that games, including slots, are completeley random. These businesses may consider your global statement as libel, as it could seriously damage confidence in their honesty and reliability.



Incidentally, you are still exposed to pattern cracking in the long term if indeed you can play at 5c, crack the pattern, and bet at $5!! UK Fruit Machine manufacturers are paying dearly for their practice of rigging game patterns, although it is the operators who take the financial consequences. You really would be better off using altered paytables and random reel stepping, and employ a mathematician to double check the paytables before launch!

What do you mean by "wheel stepping" and "random reel stepping"?

 

[jetset]

Hello Friends, Now to move on to jetsets questions and reasonable cynicism.:notworthy Yes, I understand that past communications were poor and amateur at best, however this operation is different. I have been asked to manage many aspects of the operations via my company, WebMedia1 Ltd. WebMedia1 Ltd is an ad agency that works with various companies and industries in promoting online services and launching affiliate campaigns.

MGM Media, who has purchased all the software rights from Wager21, has asked me to help them with their image, marketing, affiliate relations, industry relations and strategic alliances. They still run the day to day casino operations regarding player support, security, payment, software upgrades, programming and network infrastructure. We work closely together and I have no problem stepping in to get fast resolution to any issues that arise.

The Casinos are all licensed Curacao.

No inquisition - simple curiousity when a new poster arrives representing the (allegedly changed) interests of a group of casinos which has, shall we say diplomatically, a colourful background?

Thank you for your responses above, Fiftypercent and a related question:

Has MGM Media made any changes to the Wager 21 software since acquiring the rights to it as you report in your posts?

And a belated welcome - I think you are now beginning to understand the value of lurking and listening before posting "fact", and you are perhaps also developing an appreciation of the technical knowledge of a number of expert posters here.

BTW - if you search on "MGM Media" in the archives here you will find:

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

Registrant: MGM Media, Ltd. Temple Building Charlestown ----- Saint Kitts and Nevis Registered through: Go Daddy Software (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) Domain Name: LADYDREAM.COM Created on: 17-Jan-01 Expires on: 17-Jan-09 Last Updated on: 24-Jan-03 Administrative Contact: Hamilton, Robert admin@goldbetting.com MGM Media, Ltd. Temple Building Charlestown ----- Saint Kitts and Nevis (855) 655-7899 Fax -- Technical Contact: Hamilton, Robert admin@goldbetting.com MGM Media, Ltd. Temple Building Charlestown ----- Saint Kitts and Nevis (855) 655-7899 Fax -- Domain servers in listed order: NS.ALIANZAVIVA.NET NS2.ALIANZAVIVA.NET

 

[vinylweatherman]

Reel stepping.

What do you mean by "wheel stepping" and "random reel stepping"?

Take the simple case of a 3 reel, one winline slot such as double magic at MG.

Each of the reels will have a fixed number of symbols, these can be represented by integers. (1,2,3,4..etc). Each possible combination can be represented numerically (12, 5, 9) say, could be "cherry", "Blank", "star".

For random stepping, the RNG would produce a number for each reel. The number would allow the reel to spin more than once round for entertainment value, and the latter reels would have an extra rotation added on. Each reel would be stepped individually from a separate random number. It might be that the computation would result in +1 for reel one, +5 +1 rotation for reel two, and +12 plus 2 rotations for reel 3. Say there are 16 symbols on each, and if the stepping goes past 16 it will simply step on to symbol 1 again. In the above example; (12, 5, 9) would spin entertainingly to (13, 10, 5). reel 3 is at 5 as it has stepped past symbol 16 and through 1 to 5 afterwards for a total advance of 12 symbols.

This is random stepping, with each reel fully independant of the others. This, in my view, represents a truly random slot with the probability of any given win being proportional to the number of combinations that offer it.
The more symbols, and the more reels, the more possible combinations.

The maths for this simple slot are pretty straight forward. Simply sum the payouts for all possible combinations, and then take the input as the stake multiplied by the number of possible combinations.
Total payout divided by total stake gives the payout ratio, multiply by 100 to express as percentage return.
The maths for multi-line and feature slots is anything but straight forward, as it can be if some form of weighting is employed. Weighting allows the reduction of the probability of a Jackpot on a slot with too few probable combinations to allow the jackpot to be delivered naturally yet maintain a positive house edge.

"Our" Wizard goes into far more detail on the subject at www.wizardofodds.com especially with the complexities of weighted reels. Don't forget he has designed and evaluated slots.

My explanation is based on how early "Fruit Machines" worked before they had software alowing them to be "rigged". Weighting of reels was then done by actually placing weights at certain points, so the speed of rotation would vary as the weight went round with the reel. reels were stopped mechanically by a rod that engaged after a certain amount of time had elapsed (all done by clockwork motors, wound up by pulling the handle).

 

[jamiester]

Take the simple case of a 3 reel, one winline slot such as double magic at MG.

Each of the reels will have a fixed number of symbols, these can be represented by integers. (1,2,3,4..etc). Each possible combination can be represented numerically (12, 5, 9) say, could be "cherry", "Blank", "star".

For random stepping, the RNG would produce a number for each reel. The number would allow the reel to spin more than once round for entertainment value, and the latter reels would have an extra rotation added on. Each reel would be stepped individually from a separate random number. It might be that the computation would result in +1 for reel one, +5 +1 rotation for reel two, and +12 plus 2 rotations for reel 3. Say there are 16 symbols on each, and if the stepping goes past 16 it will simply step on to symbol 1 again. In the above example; (12, 5, 9) would spin entertainingly to (13, 10, 5). reel 3 is at 5 as it has stepped past symbol 16 and through 1 to 5 afterwards for a total advance of 12 symbols.

This is random stepping, with each reel fully independant of the others. This, in my view, represents a truly random slot with the probability of any given win being proportional to the number of combinations that offer it.
The more symbols, and the more reels, the more possible combinations.

It seems to me that, per your explanation, all stepping does is adjust the random number that is generated for each reel by some fixed integer. Frankly, I don't see how that affects the randomness at all.
I understand about the extra rotations and stuff and how to calculate payout percentages and weighting etc... Tho I still don't see how it is possible to weight a five reel multipayline machine (actually, I just thought of a way, but you'd really be weighing symbols in groups of three and each symbol would have a different weight for each reel position...)
Thanks for your answer.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Never said the maths was easy in this case!

(actually, I just thought of a way, but you'd really be weighing symbols in groups of three and each symbol would have a different weight for each reel position...)

In the example I quoted, the RNG would deliver an integer between 1 and a maximum given value. This is the random element. Reel 2 and Reel 3 would spin with independent random numbers. There would be no question of the fact of Jackpot symbols on the first two reels influencing the probability of the third reel also landing on the jackpot.
Where the RNG decides the overall result, the probability of a given win is not related to the number and spacing of the symbols on the reels.
A cycling slot is where each result is drawn from a very long, but fixed, sequence of results. The distribution of the symbols has no relationship to the chance of getting a win. This type of slot is non-random, if sufficient data is collected, the cycled pattern could be cracked, and a few games can be used to predict whether the session will be a winning one or losing one. The beauty of a cycling slot is the casino can never lose to a bad run of lucky players. Once through the cycle gives a guaranteed house return. If the pattern is cracked, the casino STILL cannot lose, but players that know the pattern will have an edge over players that don't.

 

[jamiester]

In the example I quoted, the RNG would deliver an integer between 1 and a maximum given value. This is the random element. Reel 2 and Reel 3 would spin with independent random numbers. There would be no question of the fact of Jackpot symbols on the first two reels influencing the probability of the third reel also landing on the jackpot.

I find this to be a contradiction. In a fair machine, all the reels should operate independantly of each other. That means the third reel doesn't "know" what the results of the first two reels is. The way they avoid paying jackpots is by weighing the jackpot symbols very lightly on all three reels so that the odds of all 3 coming up together are slim. But in no way does the result of the third reel depend on the results of the first two. (As I reread your paragraph, I think this may be what you were saying after all...)
I guess my contention is, while I completely understand that each reel must "spin" independantly, I don't see how "stepping" (adding some fixed integer to each RNGenerated) affects the randomness in any way

Where the RNG decides the overall result, the probability of a given win is not related to the number and spacing of the symbols on the reels.
A cycling slot is where each result is drawn from a very long, but fixed, sequence of results. The distribution of the symbols has no relationship to the chance of getting a win. This type of slot is non-random, if sufficient data is collected, the cycled pattern could be cracked, and a few games can be used to predict whether the session will be a winning one or losing one. The beauty of a cycling slot is the casino can never lose to a bad run of lucky players. Once through the cycle gives a guaranteed house return. If the pattern is cracked, the casino STILL cannot lose, but players that know the pattern will have an edge over players that don't.

Thanks for the description of cycling slots. I also refer to these types of slots as "cheating" slots. I believe that one sure sign of a cycling slot is the lack of a specific sequence on the reels; ie the animation to display the wins don't represent the virtual reels.

 

[Slotmachine]

I'm curious about the RNG's that the casino software providers use. Are they pseudorandom numbers or true random numbers? The fact that Technical Systems Testing or PWC certifies the numbers as random does not answer this question. A pseudorandom number sequence is generated by an algorithm, and appears for all purposes as random, but can be predicted if you know the algorithm and where the first number in that sequence is. A true random number is generated by introducing a source of entropy, such as radioactive decay, and generating the RN from that. True random number sequence cannot be predicted. I'm guessing that we are dealing with pseudorandom numbers when we are playing slots. But I could be wrong.

As for the slots, I don't see the theoretical difference between having a RN separately for each reel and having just one big random number for the whole combination. Say there are 10,000,000 possible combinations in a 5-reel slot machine. Just generate a random number between 1 and 10,000,000 and have the slot show the combination that corresponds to that number. I'm guessing it would be technically simpler to have each reel assigned its own RN, because you'd only have to generate a RN say between 1 and 25 for each reel, and would just need a database of 5x25=125 different positions instead of needing this huge database of 10,000,000 combinations.

So my guess at how the MG slot machines work: Pseudorandom numbers, each reel gets its own random number. Good enough for me


Cheers,
SM

 

[jamiester]

I'm curious about the RNG's that the casino software providers use. Are they pseudorandom numbers or true random numbers? The fact that Technical Systems Testing or PWC certifies the numbers as random does not answer this question. A pseudorandom number sequence is generated by an algorithm, and appears for all purposes as random, but can be predicted if you know the algorithm and where the first number in that sequence is. A true random number is generated by introducing a source of entropy, such as radioactive decay, and generating the RN from that. True random number sequence cannot be predicted. I'm guessing that we are dealing with pseudorandom numbers when we are playing slots. But I could be wrong.

So my guess at how the MG slot machines work: Pseudorandom numbers, each reel gets its own random number. Good enough for me

I have heard that slot machines almost always use pseudo random numbers. For all practical purposes, the sequence is as uncrackable as with true random numbers due to the speed at which the numbers cycle (millions of times/second).

 

[GrandMaster]

Some casinos, e.g., Boss Media, use hardware based true random numbers, but even good pseudo random numbers should be good enough. The problem with cheating casinos is usually not with the RNG, but if the RNG is bad, the games cannot possibly be fair.

There is an interesting article on a really bad RNG at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.