Kiss Casino Ripped me OFF

[lacypuff]

Kiss Casino

"The law" is merky for all of us. I suspect the congress will clear that up one day and with this kind of activity I can't really blame them.

This player can place a legal wager in Indiana. He can vote at that age. With the way politicians lies what is a bigger gamble than that? As the Meister points out the man can go to Iraq.

It appears that age of majority depends on what is being done. Here is a listing of age majority and to contract (which is what this player did) the age of majority is 18. The player is old enough to contract.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The age of majority for casino gambling in Indiana is neither here nor there. There was never a bet placed in Indiana. All the wagering takes place on the servers out of the country. Unless one wants to interpret the wire act as controlling legal authority, it appears that player met the terms and conditions. I might point out, that there is no legal age for casino Gambling in Texas so if that is what is controlling all Texas residents of any age are not of the age of majority.

This interpretation is expressly agreed to by Kiss. They agreed to it when they accepted the wager. That is the overriding consideration here. The casino accepted the wager and lost is now reneging.

There is no basis for that and they should recieve no support from the player community.

IMHO,
Stanford

Thank you Stanford for the useful information.

FYI ....I received the following email from CJ today.....


From : cj :: Giant Revenue <[email protected]>
Sent : Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:26 PM
To : "Andrew Hurt" <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: Kiss Casino Complaint

Andrew,

You may start as many websites and dispute this as much as you like, but you
have your deposit back, this is the end of this matter.

By starting up your website, Kiss Casino Sucks, you have ensured you will
not be taken seriously & you are chosing to waste more of your own time by
doing so.

Best of luck with the site - I guess our lawyers can discuss the matter from
here on in.

regards
cj





As you can tell it looks like they are unwilling to work with me. I have sent a response to them with regards to the information that I have gained from Stanford's posting. Keep your ears close to this board. I will keep everyone posted.

Andrew Hurt

 

[sw2003]

What I want to know is if he had actually lost, would they have returned his deposit because he was 19? Or they only made a fuss about his age because he won quite a bit from them?

 

[Stanford]

What I want to know is if he had actually lost, would they have returned his deposit because he was 19? Or they only made a fuss about his age because he won quite a bit from them?

Hi SW,

I think you make a good point and your question rhetorical.

I also think they are aware that the create confusion with their "age of majority" statement and then interpret to their own advanatage.

The general rule is those that draft the terms should have ambiguity construed against them. It is only fair.

imho,
Stanford

 

[nafanny29]

Best of luck with your site mate!!!

Kiss are blatently worming their way out of paying out $8000 to a legit winner.

I bet Kiss has 100s of players between the ages of 18 and 20 right now and they will only find out Kiss wont pay em when they hit it big.

This is the worst casino rip off I have seen in a while and the emails you got from them are laughable.

 

[jerseyguy11]

Best of luck with your site mate!!!

Kiss are blatently worming their way out of paying out $8000 to a legit winner.

I bet Kiss has 100s of players between the ages of 18 and 20 right now and they will only find out Kiss wont pay em when they hit it big.

This is the worst casino rip off I have seen in a while and the emails you got from them are laughable.

agreed, if you play here KISS your money goodbye because you'll never see it again. CJ has the nerve to say that some casinos wouldnt even return your deposit. Which casino would that be, CJ? Even the worst casinos I've seen return deposits most of the time when a problem arises. KISS is in a league of its own right beside Connect To.

 

[jerseyguy11]

What I want to know is if he had actually lost, would they have returned his deposit because he was 19? Or they only made a fuss about his age because he won quite a bit from them?

Obviously they wouldn't have since they only had a problem once a cashout was entered. Hence, if a cashout wasn't entered, no problem

 

[lacypuff]

Kiss Casino

The never ending situation..... At least I get a response back when I email CJ.... However, this was her response.


From : cj :: Giant Revenue <[email protected]>
Sent : Friday, October 29, 2004 1:34 AM
To : "Andrew Hurt" <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: Kiss Casino Complaint

Andrew,

I have forwarded this to our legal department, from now on all
correspondence must go through them.

regards
cj

Well maybe my Montana Disputes request will by pass any legal action that I may have to take. I hope everyone reads the tiny print in the T&C now.

Andrew

 

[jetset]

I doubt that this outfit even has a legal department - imo they are trying to put the ball in your court on the assumption that you do not have the funds to go after their "legal department" and will let it go! Anything yet from Montana?

 

[The Dude]

I doubt that this outfit even has a legal department - imo they are trying to put the ball in your court on the assumption that you do not have the funds to go after their "legal department" and will let it go! Anything yet from Montana?

Ditto, I seriously doubt they have a "legal" department - perhaps a counselor - but not a department.

The more I think about this, the more it bothers me. Here the player acknowledged this when he signed up:

Kiss Casino ("Company") is restricted to individuals of legal age of majority who are residents of jurisdictions ("Players") where the use of Kiss Casino and its games ("Games") is not prohibited by law. All Kiss Casino games are void where prohibited by law. Minors are strictly forbidden to play.

And yet denied his cashin because of this "legal age of majority". He believed he was the "legal age of majority" when he signed up - but now when the casino owes him funds - they balk - now it becomes an issue.

Was it an issue for the casino when they received players' losses? Absolutely not!

lacypuff - pick up the phone and call your DA's office and ask them if you are of "legal age of majority" to gamble online - see what they say. If you aren't, then I hope your deposit is given back to you ASAP. If you are, Kiss, you have a disgruntled customer to take care of.

And if this is the can of worms that Kiss Casino wants to open, then let them all hang out. I would expect that Kiss Casino, being so adamant in upholding the lawfulness of disallowing minors to play, would return the deposits of each player who is not of "legal age". I'm talking losers here.

Maybe the Kiss Casino legal department can dwell on that one for a few moments before they make another stupid decision.

 

[The Dude]

Just a side note, I don't understand what this casino would have to lose on paying a player who is 19 years of age. Isn't this casino "licensed" in Costa Rica? Not a lot of auditing going on down there.

 

[jyde]

What a joke that cj-character is If they're so concerned about respecting the law they should ban players from a few countries and some states in the US. But then again - then they wouldn't be able to void winnings at their convenience. Suckers!

I wouldn't be surprised if there are Kiss-players who had their winnings denied because of their country.

 

[Stanford]

lacypuff - pick up the phone and call your DA's office and ask them if you are of "legal age of majority" to gamble online - see what they say. If you aren't, then I hope your deposit is given back to you ASAP. If you are, Kiss, you have a disgruntled customer to take care of.

And if this is the can of worms that Kiss Casino wants to open, then let them all hang out. I would expect that Kiss Casino, being so adamant in upholding the lawfulness of disallowing minors to play, would return the deposits of each player who is not of "legal age". I'm talking losers here.

Mr. Meister,

I agree that Kiss should return all the losses of all players under 21. But more than that, they should return all losses of all players in states where the attorney general takes the position that online gambling is illegal. In other words, almost all the states.

The District Attorney will probably take the position that online gambling is illegal.

But I think the position of that online gaming community is that state gambling statues don't apply because the wagers are not made in the state. The contract may be made in the state and its ratification by transfering funds offshore. But the actual wager is accepted elsewhere. It is like calling Las Vegas and asking if you can bet on the SuperBowl. Then flying there and placing a wager.

Red32 takes a different view. But they are consistent. They take no players from the U.S. Had this player applied there they would not have accepted the wager. William Hill similarly takes the view the wire act does not apply to the casino, but that it does apply to the sportsbook. A player from Indiana of any age won't face a non payment problem in their Sports Book because they won't take the wager.

Kiss has accepted this player is of legal age. And he is of legal age. He can contract. He did so. He upheld his end. They need to uphold their end. Hope you rogue them if they don't.

imho,
Stanford

 

[jerseyguy11]

I have been dealing with these exact issues for 5 years. Underage gambling, Illegal gambling, public policy etc..

Yes, the DA or most government agencys for that matter will say "online gambling is illegal but we dont prosecute for it". ALL states will say that. Only because they hope that by saying it's illegal you will not gamble online. Can you blame them with what is going in this KISS case.

Courts will have mixed views. Some will say the bet takes place from the states (as did the New York Supereme Court saying "Entering a bet from a computer in New York is adequate to constitute gambling in New york"). Other courts will say that its too merky to get involved with or the bets take place offshore.

The point here is that nobody knows just whos laws apply to online casinos.

These state and federal laws may or may not apply :
Underage laws, RICO laws, wire act and others.

If kiss wants to follow underage laws, then why not go all the way and follow Wire act laws? KISS is simply selecting which law they wish to "take out of context" while ignoring the laws that could actually apply.

The casinos are obviously taking the position that the bet takes place overseas and state laws dont apply. They also usually say in their terms "Its the responsibility of the player to abide by his own laws" or something like that. Even if the casinos are wrong and state laws do apply, they are overseas and escape US prosecution, so its a win/win for the casino.

In KISS's situation, they are doing this... If you win, your state laws apply. If you lose, your state laws dont apply. KISS is really defrauding players by doing this.

From my own experience in these issues, the state laws will not come into play. You cant sue KISS in state court being overseas, you must do so in federal court (or sue RTG is federal court).

Your best bet here is to have RTG or montana resolve this. They must police KISS in this situation.

 

[jetset]

Good post, Jersey...and the sooner RTG get involved in this the better as it is escalating fast and has potential for damage all round.

Recapping, this is what the player claims:

1) He truthfully declared his age at registration
2) He gambled and lost with no objection from Kiss casino management
3) He gambled again, this time winning a substantial amount of money, and tried to cash out.
4) Now it's an alleged "age of majority" problem for Kiss management.

 

[lacypuff]

Kiss Casino

Good post, Jersey...and the sooner RTG get involved in this the better as it is escalating fast and has potential for damage all round.

Recapping, this is what the player claims:

1) He truthfully declared his age at registration
2) He gambled and lost with no objection from Kiss casino management
3) He gambled again, this time winning a substantial amount of money, and tried to cash out.
4) Now it's an alleged "age of majority" problem for Kiss management.

Does anyone know of a contacts name at RTG? I have all ready filed a montana dispute claim. I haven't heard anything from them though.

Andrew

 

[bo_ho]

This has sort of become a "Pirate" like situation IMHO. Positions were solidified, threats made, and feelings hurt before an honest attempt at resolution. I really hope this works out.

That being said...and trying not to be too dramatic...it seems the future of online gaming is at stake here. If a casino can accept my money after I fully disclose everything about my age...location...shoe size etc, then decide to deny winnings using information they had at deposit, the system is broken. KISS could become the online casino poster child our media and legislators want to protect us against!

Good luck

 

[casd]

I am sorry to hear what happened to you.

But still I have to wonder why chose to gamble at Kiss casino. I think you deserve your money but I can tell you even if you were 30 years old they would not pay you. They would find another excuse not to pay you. The are black listed everywhere including this site. If you like Real time gaming go to Phoenician or I net Bet and you will not have any problems. I hope you get paid but from their track record I doubt you will. They have stiffed many players. Best of luck to you.

 

[paul02085]

Exactly. If you were 90 they would say you are too old to be paid. Its just another in a long line of RTG ripoff sites.

 

[Slotster!]

Someone wisely said up there: "They agreed to it when they accepted the wager. That is the overriding consideration here"

That's the crux of the matter. By accepting the wager, they accept the potential payout. It's the casino's responsibility to verify age in advance, which they did, and allowed a 19yr old player to gamble.

Good luck Andrew - you deserve your winnings fair and square!

 

[snuf419]

sometime back i did read about a casino clearly stating they won't pay you if you are above 75

 

[jerseyguy11]

KISS is wrong, this 19 year old is right. There is absolutely no justification for this. KISS thinks its okay to defraud players, it is not. End of story.

 

[kangamick]

For a 19yo $8000 is a lot of money, Kiss is 100% wrong here. I was looking at the deposit $1000 to get $500 bonus at Kiss casino but now i think i better stay well clear.

 

[snuf419]

$8000 is a lot of money to anyone

 

[Stanford]

KISS is wrong, this 19 year old is right. There is absolutely no justification for this. KISS thinks its okay to defraud players, it is not. End of story.

Exactly. The question is can the player community keep this issue from fading. Casinos are more and more taking the position that if they are patient issues will just go away.

You see that in the Casino Rewards thread. Even after promising Spearmaster that they would remove the no auto play stipulation, they never did. And they refuse to say they won't change bonus terms retroactively. They get away with it because the player community allows threads to drift into oblivion.

Fortune Lounge is doing the exact same thing with the Megen controversy.

So in this case, is the player community going to allow this to grow cold? Or can we keep this alive and out front. And how do we do that?

Stanford

 

[DeMango]

I think either start a new thread biweekly on each subject or we all take turns bumping our favorite subject at appropriate times!

 

[bethug]

kiss is a scam casino and they need to pay this man his money. $8000 bucks is nothing to let go

 

[lacypuff]

Kiss Casino

Jeez...

It couldnt be clearer..hes underage..end of story..I like the domain though.. but i doubt it will do your case much good!

Junior..

Did Kiss do the right thing and refund your original stake or not?

As of right now they still haven't credited the original deposits back to my account. Now I'm doubting if they ever will. Thank you everyone for keeping discussion thread going. Kiss Casino seems to think that internet forums are not very vocial and will not hurt their business. At least that is what their management stated. Geez .... $8000 thats over 2 years of college tution for me. I guess I'll have to figure out another way to go to school. I still haven't heard anything from Montana Dispute though. I'm still hopeful that I may have a chance to get this settled. It just stinks you earn it and then they take it away.

Andrew Hurt

 

[Stanford]

I still haven't heard anything from Montana Dispute though. I'm still hopeful that I may have a chance to get this settled. It just stinks you earn it and then they take it away.

Andrew Hurt

I suppose this is a test case for Montana Dispute as much as an indictment of Kiss Casino. If they help resolve your case, we know they are viable. If they don't, we know they are suspect.

Stanford

 

[sw2003]

As of right now they still haven't credited the original deposits back to my account. Now I'm doubting if they ever will. Thank you everyone for keeping discussion thread going. Kiss Casino seems to think that internet forums are not very vocial and will not hurt their business. At least that is what their management stated. Geez .... $8000 thats over 2 years of college tution for me. I guess I'll have to figure out another way to go to school. I still haven't heard anything from Montana Dispute though. I'm still hopeful that I may have a chance to get this settled. It just stinks you earn it and then they take it away.

Andrew Hurt

You put your college money into a casino??

 

[Stanford]

You put your college money into a casino??

Not that bad an idea. My daughter did that. But she put it in Fortune Lounge. I never worried about it. And she made a couple of bucks.

She will be a third generational Vegas player.

Stanford

 

[jerseyguy11]

he only put in 900 of his own money. that isnt much. He meant that he could go to college for 2 yrs on the winnings.

this situation makes me really sad. Picturing this kid building 900 up to 8000, only to find out that the casino would pull something like this on him, makes me very sad. anyone that can build that much up on a RTG casino, should get EVERY PENNY!!!!! Its hard enough for me to build up 1k on RTG!

 

[sirius]

Unless I missed something, the state he's in doesn't actually define the age of majority. I am not sure if being a 'minor' is the same thing. I thought it was up to the player to determine whether it is legal or not to sign up and play, or why would most casinos state that in their terms and conditions?

The casino can't accept the player's deposit (18 is deemed to be an adult in most countries) and later deny winnings if they somehow determine it's illegal in his state. Some would argue it's illegal to gamble online in all US states.

Even in Casinomeister's Germany, it's been argued there that it's probably illegal for any German residents to play online casinos unless the casino holds a German license (I think one did but it closed). I know some Isle of Man licensed casinos didn't take bets from there.

Much of the time it isn't really known what is legal and what is illegal regarding online gambling unless the jurisdiction passes a law about it specifically.

Most online casinos seem to try and imply that because it's legal to operate and play where their servers are located, then anyone around the world can play there legally using the internet. In these cases it's absurd to try and use the gambling laws for the jurisdiction the player is actually in as one of the rules. To complicate things a bit, some licensing locations don't even allow their own residents to play online there but everyone else around the world can!

 

[lacypuff]

Kiss Casino

Sirus,

I would appreciate what ever anyone can do to help with this situation. It seems that the dispute forum can take up to 3 wks. This could be a really long and drawn out process.

Andrew

 

[jetset]

QUOTE Kiss Casino seems to think that internet forums are not very vocial and will not hurt their business.UNQUOTE

I have heard this badly mistaken comment made by inept casino managements almost as many times as "you're on an unspecified blacklist", "your ID documents are unclear", "Your payout is being processed" or "we have classified you a bonus abuser"!!!

Experienced managers know otherwise, which is why you often see them here.

To make an assumption that message boards can be disregarded with impunity is a huge mistake, especially when it comes to a popular forum such as this one.

 

[jinnia]

The way I see it, Kiss Casino took his/her money on deposit, the player was allowed to play quite some time on that deposit and all seemed fine with Kiss, in hopes the player would lose the initial deposit of $900 to them. When the player got lucky and won, then requested a cash out, that's when Kiss used this Age crap only as an excuse to keep from paying.

Kiss Casino, pay the player the money that is due him. You are only hurting your business, for this is going to be taken to other forums now with a link directing to this thread, enough is enough!

Just pay legit winnings to a legit player. After all, YOU allowed him/her to play!

 

[jerseyguy11]

KISS spelled backwords is SSIK. get it SICK. ahahahbuahahah. holy crap i think i drank too much tonight mmm white russians

 

[toofast4u]

I definitely wouldn't back down on this one, they owe you some mad cash and don't let them rest till it gets resolved.

 

[The Dude]

Even in Casinomeister's Germany, it's been argued there that it's probably illegal for any German residents to play online casinos unless the casino holds a German license (I think one did but it closed). I know some Isle of Man licensed casinos didn't take bets from there.

Actually, there is no law that forbids Germans to play on line; it is only if you run into a problem at an online casino there are no laws to assist you. For instance, if a casino decides not to pay, there is no crime committed against you and you cannot press charges.

You just bring it to "peoples court"

Much of the time it isn't really known what is legal and what is illegal regarding online gambling unless the jurisdiction passes a law about it specifically.

That's a big problem. And Kiss casino seems to be applying what they feel is "legal" in this respect, but only selectively.

It's only one way or the other, you can't have both. Kiss casino is making a grave mistake by selectively chosing the instances that they feel a person is underage. This player, and all Kiss players of that are aged 18-20 should have their deposits returned immediately. Either that, or they should do the right thing and pay the man.

 

[nafanny29]

It's only one way or the other, you can't have both. Kiss casino is making a grave mistake by selectively chosing the instances that they feel a person is underage. This player, and all Kiss players of that are aged 18-20 should have their deposits returned immediately. Either that, or they should do the right thing and pay the man.

This whole saga will put lacypuff off online casinos for life. I bet this was his first major win and I can just emagine how excited he would have been when he won $8000. Then for the casino to give him a load of cr@p and refuse to pay him must have been horrible.

2 months ago my girlfriend played online for the first time and was playing the "price is right" slot on Virgin Games. On the 2nd spin she hit 5 scattered WILDS for 2600 (Unbelieveable I know). She cashed out 2500 and the cash was in her bank account 3 days later.

If she had the same shit as lacypuff is getting she would have been absolutely devistated im telling you.

 

[lacypuff]

Kiss Casino

Actually, there is no law that forbids Germans to play on line; it is only if you run into a problem at an online casino there are no laws to assist you. For instance, if a casino decides not to pay, there is no crime committed against you and you cannot press charges.

You just bring it to "peoples court"


That's a big problem. And Kiss casino seems to be applying what they feel is "legal" in this respect, but only selectively.

It's only one way or the other, you can't have both. Kiss casino is making a grave mistake by selectively chosing the instances that they feel a person is underage. This player, and all Kiss players of that are aged 18-20 should have their deposits returned immediately. Either that, or they should do the right thing and pay the man.

If there is anything you can do Casinomeister I would really appreciate it. I'm not for sure if Kiss Casino is watching this message board. I still haven't heard from Montanta Disputes about this issue though. Does anyone know how to contact them and actually talk to someone or send someone their a email? I feel like I'm sitting here in limbo waiting for Montana. The only thing my dispute says is waiting for review. Maybe I should just be a little more patient with Montana Disupte system though?

Thanks
Andrew

 

[The Dude]

...The only thing my dispute says is waiting for review. Maybe I should just be a little more patient with Montana Disupte system though?

Sometimes it takes a couple of weeks to get things going. Once an RTG screws up, you need a lot of patience.

 

[jetset]

I recall an RTG person telling me that Montana's site has a facility where you can check on the progress of your dispute.

I'm pretty sure that Kiss is monitoring this thread - they would be crazy if they were not.

 

[buck]

Good luck

Sirus,

I would appreciate what ever anyone can do to help with this situation. It seems that the dispute forum can take up to 3 wks. This could be a really long and drawn out process.

Andrew

Kiss is known to take +2 weeks to pay when there is nothing in dispute. From first hand knowledge. With the typical response of "back log of transactions" blah, blah, blah.


Buck

 

[lacypuff]

Kiss Casino

Sometimes it takes a couple of weeks to get things going. Once an RTG screws up, you need a lot of patience.

I looked at the web page to check the dispute. However, it doesn't tell me any of their comments. It just says under review. I'm really glad this board exist to let go some of the steam that this situation has caused me.

Thanks
Andrew

 

[lacypuff]

Kiss Casino

Now this is aggrevating. After all this disputing that has been occuring and them saying I'm not of legal age I got the following email. This is a bunch of crap.



Hello from Sam and Emma, your Kiss Casino Welcome Team.

We are writing to offer you our special "$20 for $20" Thank You Promo.

This is a great way to try out the games for real money with a small 100% match bonus. Just make a small deposit of $20 or more and respond back to this email with 20 for 20 in the subject heading, and we will credit you with an instant $20 free.

Remember, this offer is only valid for the recipient of this email.

This is just one of the small ways that we say Thanks for preferring Kiss Casino where lady luck blows you a kiss!

Best of luck with the games!

Sam and Emma
Your Kiss Casino
Welcome Team
[email protected]

Thanks
Andrew

 

[m249a]

Targeting a "minor" with gambling email is clearly a violation of the law. Kiss casino should give themselves a fine. Oh lets say around $8,000. Then lock themselves up in prison.

 

[jetset]

Heh! It doesn't indicate any level of professional efficiency at Kiss Casino but it could strengthen your case - I would bring that to Montana's attention, too!

 

[The Dude]

Wtf?

This whole situation is absurd. I've just banged off an email to CJ, but this email offer takes the cake, and I'm not even going to wait for a reply.

Kiss Casino - Rogued!

 

[Stanford]

This whole situation is absurd. I've just banged off an email to CJ, but this email offer takes the cake, and I'm not even going to wait for a reply.

Kiss Casino - Rogued!

Thank you Casino Meister. Well done. .

Stanford

 

[Petunia]

-- And another one bites the dust! As it should be of course!