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Resolved irregular play ???? just registered! 7 sultans!

Not sure why, but instincts say something just isn't right here and hopefully this isn't another "dwindmil1" type situation. Maybe we have the whole story, maybe we don't.



Too many unanswered questions and the casino rep posted on February 14 that they were in contact with the player and would reply to the issue. Just doesn't smell right and the fact that the casino rep jumped in after the initial post with concern about the matter gives me pause.



Could be that before we prosecute and execute, we may want to wait and hear both sides of the matter. Then again, it is always fun to go off half cocked, shoot the culprit, and then ask questions to see if one was right.
 
Not sure why, but instincts say something just isn't right here and hopefully this isn't another "dwindmil1" type situation. Maybe we have the whole story, maybe we don't.



Too many unanswered questions and the casino rep posted on February 14 that they were in contact with the player and would reply to the issue. Just doesn't smell right and the fact that the casino rep jumped in after the initial post with concern about the matter gives me pause.



Could be that before we prosecute and execute, we may want to wait and hear both sides of the matter. Then again, it is always fun to go off half cocked, shoot the culprit, and then ask questions to see if one was right.


Well, if the rep would LET us hear both sides, we can make an informed judgement, but despite jumping in right away, the rep seems to have gone AWOL for the following FOUR WORKING days of the week. Checking whether a bonus was involved would NOT take this long, whatever other issues are in play.

It seems that CS and the rep agree that no bonuses were used, yet they STILL want to confiscate the winnings, although we only have these emails from the rep & CS "second hand" from the OP.

Maybe the OP HAS submitted a PAB after all, and the rep has decided NOT to comment further until it has been dealt with. There should be no problem in just confirming this though, so that we KNOW this matter has not just been "swept under the rug".


BTW, this wouldn't involve the NEW Multi-Wheel Roulette by any chance?
 
Well, if the rep would LET us hear both sides, we can make an informed judgement, but despite jumping in right away, the rep seems to have gone AWOL for the following FOUR WORKING days of the week. Checking whether a bonus was involved would NOT take this long, whatever other issues are in play.

?

Concur 100%...it is time for them to respond.
 
I've been following this intently. If the OP's winnings were confiscated according to what they have said, this would be the most ridiculous act of roguishness I have ever witnessed on this site. Most dramatic or scary? No. But definitely most ridiculous.

petshoppete, please PAB immediately. :thumbsup:
 
BOLLOCKS!!!!!!

Never heard this word before so I looked it up-
"Bollocks!" can be used as a stand-alone interjection to express strong disagreement. It dismisses a statement as nonsense, similar to the American "bullshit". This can be expanded, for example, to "What a complete and utter load of bollocks!" An expression with a similar meaning is "Yer ballax!" (You're bollocks). Sometimes bollocks! is combined with an abbreviated version of the original statement, for instance: "It was your fault" - "Bollocks, it was!" (It certainly was not); or "Did England win last night?" - "Did they bollocks!" (No, they did not) or "Pubs are shit in Atherton and Westhoughton." — "Are they bollocks, there's good ones in Westhoughton!".

As well as its use as an exclamation, "bollocks" can be used as a noun to annunciate a lie, an incorrect statement, an unfair situation, misfortune or a hiding to nothing, i.e. "what a load of bollocks" or "bollocks, more like". A quotation from John O'Farrell includes a range of examples of this usage: a character attending a comedy awards ceremony said: "These awards are a load of bollocks. It's all bollocks, all of it. These people: bollocks; this whole industry: complete bollocks; these prizes: meaningless bollocks; all these free gifts: marketing bollocks; this food: pure bollocks".[11] Similarly, it is claimed that New Labour spin doctor Alastair Campbell "routinely dismissed unwelcome news stories as bollocks, complete bollocks and bollocks on stilts
".​
I going to try this one out on Wednesday (Ladies Night at Blue Martini) and see what the reaction is! I hope I use it appropriately and in the proper context as I usually mess these things up.:axeman:
 
Gret, this term derives from "ballocks" meaning testicles, and in particular hairy ones.

Nothing improves Ladies Night like a few hairy testicles!

Yea...I know. I didn't include that part of my research with my post and I think that may ruin my evening as the girls don't have a sense of humor here. The cougars, and most of the others, have only one thing in mind, and good looks and pleasant personality have nothing to do with it. :Angel:



Going out on a limb...we don't have the whole story about the player's situation and there is something else going on here.
 
Something just doesn't add up here.

Why would you play red and black for any other reason than clearing a bonus?

As indicated, it is a guaranteed losing prospect.

The only other reason I can think is to rack up comps but I doubt the amount of comps earned would be enough to cover the number of times "0" comes up.

None of this makes any sense at all, and based on my experience with Fortune Lounge over 8 years I would be very surprised if they would confiscate winnings without a valid reason - which makes me think there may be more to this than the OP is revealing.

I looked through the 7Sultans Terms and Conditions - both general and promotional - and could only find one clause that may apply to the OP:

The Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings for irregular play. ‘Irregular play’ includes but is not limited to any one or more of the following types of play:
1. Placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to the account prior to the play-through requirement for that bonus having been met;
2. Using the double-up feature to increase bet values;
3. Even money bets on Sic Bo, Craps, Baccarat and Roulette

There are two important things to note about the OP's case:

1. The above clause only applies if you take a bonus

2. The Rep has not confirmed the OP did not take a bonus (we only have his word)

So, if we are to look at this reasonably and logically, the only question that requires a definite answer is "Did the OP play with a bonus at any time?"

If he did, then he has done the wrong thing in respect of the casino and the membership, as he insists he didn't take a bonus.

If he didn't, then the casino has done the wrong thing by the player and should be called to account. After all, there is no term I can find anywhere that talks about any restriction of bets when a bonus is not involved (certainly no 70% rule in either case)

Considering the above, let's back off on calling 7Sultans "rogue" and all sorts of other things until we have confirmed the facts. Save the mud-slinging for when we know it is warranted.
 
pitch a bitch it is then!

Ok, PAB received and in progress.

@petshoppete: I hope you've read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ and know that while your PAB is in progress further posts here on the forums on this subject are strongly discouraged. Doing so will damage and/or disqualify your PAB.

Once we've completed your PAB and advised you of our decision you are free to post again. Until then we require that you not post further on this if you wish the PAB to proceed.

That said, off I go to submit your PAB to my 7Sultans contact.
 
Something just doesn't add up here.

Why would you play red and black for any other reason than clearing a bonus?

As indicated, it is a guaranteed losing prospect.

The only other reason I can think is to rack up comps but I doubt the amount of comps earned would be enough to cover the number of times "0" comes up.
However you arrange your chips, the house edge on European roulette is 2.7%, comp points are awarded at a rate of 0.02%. This is not a profitable proposition in the long term. I guess you might try it and hope for the best if you only need a few more comp point to get to a round number that you can redeem.

None of this makes any sense at all, and based on my experience with Fortune Lounge over 8 years I would be very surprised if they would confiscate winnings without a valid reason - which makes me think there may be more to this than the OP is revealing.
I am not so sure. I think Fortune Lounge (if not FL then another MG casino) once claimed that the even money bets on roulette were excluded from bonus play because they had no house edge.

I looked through the 7Sultans Terms and Conditions - both general and promotional - and could only find one clause that may apply to the OP:



There are two important things to note about the OP's case:

1. The above clause only applies if you take a bonus

2. The Rep has not confirmed the OP did not take a bonus (we only have his word)

So, if we are to look at this reasonably and logically, the only question that requires a definite answer is "Did the OP play with a bonus at any time?"

If he did, then he has done the wrong thing in respect of the casino and the membership, as he insists he didn't take a bonus.

If he didn't, then the casino has done the wrong thing by the player and should be called to account. After all, there is no term I can find anywhere that talks about any restriction of bets when a bonus is not involved (certainly no 70% rule in either case)

Considering the above, let's back off on calling 7Sultans "rogue" and all sorts of other things until we have confirmed the facts. Save the mud-slinging for when we know it is warranted.
There was a time when you could make a guaranteed profit from roulette by covering all numbers, with the current WR, you cannot. The way to make a profit from a bonus is by betting large on single numbers, not by covering a large part of the table, so there is no point in prohibiting the latter. The OP said he was not playing with a bonus anyway.
 
However you arrange your chips, the house edge on European roulette is 2.7%, comp points are awarded at a rate of 0.02%. This is not a profitable proposition in the long term. I guess you might try it and hope for the best if you only need a few more comp point to get to a round number that you can redeem.


I am not so sure. I think Fortune Lounge (if not FL then another MG casino) once claimed that the even money bets on roulette were excluded from bonus play because they had no house edge.


There was a time when you could make a guaranteed profit from roulette by covering all numbers, with the current WR, you cannot. The way to make a profit from a bonus is by betting large on single numbers, not by covering a large part of the table, so there is no point in prohibiting the latter. The OP said he was not playing with a bonus anyway.

The bonus issue hasn't been confirmed but we'll assume there wasn't one for the moment.

What reason can you think of that explains this kind of betting?

I know you questioned the ideas I presented but didn't state your own take on the situation.

(Nice to kinda see you again Rob)
 
The reason, petshoppete placed red an black was probably explanded by Rick,
see #47:

I am guessing the reason why you may have sometimes bet on Black and Red at the same time was because the Microgaming roulette software doesn't allow you to spin the wheel without placing a bet (very annoying). And doing this allowed you to spin the wheel until a time you were ready to place a proper bet.
 
This issue is currently under review and discussion and I will post in the forum once I have a definitive answer.

I apologise for the delay.

Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge Group
 
This issue is currently under review and discussion and I will post in the forum once I have a definitive answer.

I apologise for the delay.

Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge Group

We will wait, but why can't you at least clear up the question of bonuses. If the OP DID use one, then this entire issue is a lie, and the rules, and following confiscation, are nothing untoward.

The ACTUAL term is "no even money bets", not "no covering more than 70%". If this is being applied OUTSIDE of bonus play, then even "normal" play on roulette is disallowed, such as JUST betting on Red, or Just betting on Even. Although simple bets, they are considered perfectly NORMAL on a Roulette wheel.
 
The reason, petshoppete placed red an black was probably explanded by Rick,
see #47:

I am guessing the reason why you may have sometimes bet on Black and Red at the same time was because the Microgaming roulette software doesn't allow you to spin the wheel without placing a bet (very annoying). And doing this allowed you to spin the wheel until a time you were ready to place a proper bet.
Why should the casino care if someone bets black and red with his own money?

What reason can you think of that explains this kind of betting?
Covering 70% of the table indicates a player who prefers smaller but higher probability wins. Why does a player playing with his own money need to explain his reasons?
 
Why should the casino care if someone bets black and red with his own money?


Covering 70% of the table indicates a player who prefers smaller but higher probability wins. Why does a player playing with his own money need to explain his reasons?

THIS is why this issue has become so controversial, the casino appears to be saying such play is "abusive", and serious enough to lead to any winnings being confiscated.

The player ONLY had something to explain because the CASINO confiscated his winnings.

He CANNOT have made EVERY bet in the manner described, otherwise there would be no winnings to confiscate. He must have made some "proper" bets too, that generated the winnings, yet rather than just withdraw, the OP started betting on Red & Black.

Nothing makes sense here, and although I feel we will eventually find out this DID have something to do with bonuses, the rep seems strikingly unwilling to confirm that the OP DID use a bonus, and is trying to get away with this by saying they didn't.

Given that Max has confirmed that a PAB is in progress, the truth will soon come out, and it could be a surprise either way.
 
I've been in close contact with the rep. A solution has been reached and I expect him to post here soon with details.
 
Firstly I wish to apologise for this matter taking so long to resolve.

The reality is that there has been a gross misinterpretation of the Terms and Conditions as petshoppete did not receive a bonus and should therefore not have been subjected to promotion rules. This term was created to prevent players from meeting playthrough requirements and indeed appears under our promotional terms and not under general terms. Although he made a large number of even bets, there was an instance where he covered the table which resulted in the winnings he cashed in.

We sincerely regret this mess and also apologise to petshoppete for the aggravation and inconvenience. His full withdrawal has now been processed.

Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge
 
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THIS is why this issue has become so controversial, the casino appears to be saying such play is "abusive", and serious enough to lead to any winnings being confiscated.

The player ONLY had something to explain because the CASINO confiscated his winnings.

He CANNOT have made EVERY bet in the manner described, otherwise there would be no winnings to confiscate. He must have made some "proper" bets too, that generated the winnings, yet rather than just withdraw, the OP started betting on Red & Black.
He said he had made some bets black and red, but not all, then he could not have had any winnings. The casino should be delighted if a player makes bets he cannot win. If you cover 26 out of the 37 numbers, which is about 70%, then the probability of winning 10 times in a row is about 3%, but I can see a casino panicking about a player winning 10 times in a row and starting to suspect something.

Nothing makes sense here, and although I feel we will eventually find out this DID have something to do with bonuses, the rep seems strikingly unwilling to confirm that the OP DID use a bonus, and is trying to get away with this by saying they didn't.

Given that Max has confirmed that a PAB is in progress, the truth will soon come out, and it could be a surprise either way.
As FL confirmed above, there was no bonus, just a failure of various people at the casino to read their own T&C. They must be so used to people playing with sign-up bonuses, that once they spotted the bets on red and black, they went into confiscation mode automatically. I see some training issues here for CS and the security department.
 
Firstly I wish to apologise for this matter taking so long to resolve.

The reality is that there has been a gross misinterpretation of the Terms and Conditions as petshoppete did not receive a bonus and should therefore not have been subjected to promotion rules. This term was created to prevent players from meeting playthrough requirements and indeed appears under our promotional terms and not under general terms. Although he made a large number of even bets, there was an instance where he covered the table which resulted in the winnings he cashed in.

We sincerely regret this mess and also apologise to petshoppete for the aggravation and inconvenience. His full withdrawal has now been processed.

Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

I'm happy to see that is was just a misunderstanding and the problem has been solved :thumbsup:
 
Firstly I wish to apologise for this matter taking so long to resolve.

The reality is that there has been a gross misinterpretation of the Terms and Conditions as petshoppete did not receive a bonus and should therefore not have been subjected to promotion rules. This term was created to prevent players from meeting playthrough requirements and indeed appears under our promotional terms and not under general terms. Although he made a large number of even bets, there was an instance where he covered the table which resulted in the winnings he cashed in.

We sincerely regret this mess and also apologise to petshoppete for the aggravation and inconvenience. His full withdrawal has now been processed.

Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

Nice to see it resolved.

What I don't understand is..."Although he made a large number of even bets, there was an instance where he covered the table which resulted in the winnings he cashed in."..why was this done and how does one generate winnings by covering the board?
 
It's great that Wim stepped up to the plate once more.

The problem I have is that it really became a case of bringing in a sledgehammer to squash a grape.

When you think about it the issue wasn't complex at all - it was simply a question of whether there was a bonus involved and any lackey should be able to see that.

In addition to other changes at FL lately it has caused me to reconsider my opinion .
 
thank you forum, please read

first of all, credit to where credit it is due! thank you to fortune lounge for resolving my problem. well done.:thumbsup:

thank you to all to chipped in and for help and advice.

special thanks to sameold, mrjones, grandmesiter roulettmaus and de bauker.

vinylman- not sure what to say to you, thank you for your contribution.

gret-im dont know who dwindmil1 is, but i think i can safely say im not like him

lastly and certainly no means least, a HUGE thank you to max!!!!!:thumbsup:
its suffice to say i have made a donation to a casinomeister charity.

thank you all and best of luck and lets all keep up the good work in this forum

petshoppete:D
 
Firstly I wish to apologise for this matter taking so long to resolve.

The reality is that there has been a gross misinterpretation of the Terms and Conditions as petshoppete did not receive a bonus and should therefore not have been subjected to promotion rules. This term was created to prevent players from meeting playthrough requirements and indeed appears under our promotional terms and not under general terms. Although he made a large number of even bets, there was an instance where he covered the table which resulted in the winnings he cashed in.

We sincerely regret this mess and also apologise to petshoppete for the aggravation and inconvenience. His full withdrawal has now been processed.

Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

Nice to see it resolved.

What I don't understand is..."Although he made a large number of even bets, there was an instance where he covered the table which resulted in the winnings he cashed in."..why was this done and how does one generate winnings by covering the board?

He clearly did NOT "cover the table", but merely a significant proportion of it, which is NORMAL PLAY, even WITH a bonus.

Far worse is the SHEER DOGGED PERSISTENCE the casino had in enforcing their ERROR in this matter. This is despite the player informing them on SEVERAL occasions that he had NOT taken the bonus CS thought he had.

Rather than check their facts, the "confiscation department" seemed hell bent on pursuing this into the forums, and even MORE embarrassingly through the PAB process, which means this cock-up is now a matter of record.

This has to be a candidate for the 2011 "casino blunders" award, mainly for their dogged persistence DESPITE the "bleedin' obvious" right under their noses that this was an ERROR.

Not many players would have THIS much fight in them, and it is highly disappointing that time and time again players simply CANNOT resolve issues like this between themselves and the casino concerned. It seems that some of the staff who deal with such issues are quite simply "not fit for purpose", and this is the fault of MANAGEMENT.

Players who do NOT take the bonuses that "everybody else does" should NOT be treated like "liars" simply because it is so uncommon for anyone to say no to a "too good to refuse" offer. The few players that play WITHOUT bonuses CANNOT be there for "bonus abuse", and should if anything be fast tracked to VIP status, and offered perks other than the standard bonuses.

When we get to the stage where casinos don't understand their own terms and conditions, they are far too complicated to expect the PLAYERS to always read and understand them.


WHY is it enough for the casino just to say "sorry" for this SERIOUS error, yet if a PLAYER had made an error of similar magnitude, a "sorry" would NOT be enough, they would face a penalty, such as confiscation of winnings.
 
WHY is it enough for the casino just to say "sorry" for this SERIOUS error, yet if a PLAYER had made an error of similar magnitude, a "sorry" would NOT be enough, they would face a penalty, such as confiscation of winnings.

Life sucks?
The man with the gold makes the rules?
The existential reality of the unfairness of the world?

Pick it!

Shit happens dude. Here we made it unhappen. Yay!
Attach Removed (Old not found)
 
Life sucks?
The man with the gold makes the rules?
The existential reality of the unfairness of the world?

Pick it!

Shit happens dude. Here we made it unhappen. Yay!
Attach Removed (Old not found)

Maybe, but it shouldn't be swept under the rug, or this place will STINK;)

Talking of "shit happens", there are now a couple of threads where Ladbrokes are BLATANTLY using "spirit of the bonus" against players. It seems Betfair "getting away with it" has made others think they too can "try it on".

This is another pile of horsecrap that isn't going to hide away under the rug.

The "man with the gold" only has it because he has taken it from the "little guy", and it is important that the "little guy" at least gets a fair chance against the "big corporate bully". THIS is the concept behind the UK consumer protection laws, which are somewhat LACKING in the internet relationship. These laws allow the "little guy" access to an even BIGGER "bruiser" than the corporate bully boys.
Online players see Casinomeister as their "big bruiser" when they need help with the casino's "corporate bully boys".
 
A bit thumbs up to Maxd:thumbsup:

I'm glad the OP found his way to this board, and to the PAB service.

What do players do that fail to find CM?

I realize mistakes happen. But this should have been settled long before the PAB stage. It should have been reviewed when it was realized the player was not playing with a bonus. Even an inquiry by the rep with the casino was met with incorrect information.

Good to see they responded quickly to Maxd though. I think it's relatively common to cover more than 70% of the board... I'll often see players at the B&M covering two out of three dozen bets, and some chips on the board within those two dozens, and both zeros.
 
Maybe, but it shouldn't be swept under the rug ....

Oh yeah, that's why we posted about it on the forums where everyone could see ... then they'll never see it, right?

Our next step is to do some TV adverts and maybe a billboard campaign, just to ensure complete invisibility.

With all due respect VWM, get a grip! Attach Removed (Old not found)
 
This term was created to prevent players from meeting playthrough requirements and indeed appears under our promotional terms and not under general terms.
Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

Hi Wim,

Im sorry, have I misinterpreted the reasoning for your T&C's here? Your term was created to PREVENT players from meeting playthrough??

Nate
 
It is good they apologized,

But I still uninstalled and won't play there anymore. What the OP went through was utter bullchit with a crap factor of fifty on the Richter scale. What if the OP didn't find this website? How many other folks that never voiced concern has happened to? How many? The casino probably only re-visited the issue after intervention by 3rd party. And since the casino can't even audit themselves to ensure this didn't happen to the person who openly posted about the issue, I can only imagine that this has occurred more than once before.

So how many other peeps has this happened to?

How could something as simple as not getting a bonus on a deposit be missed by a casino with a security team? I have no confidence in 7s anymore. I am bummed, since I liked the casino.

I just don't get it.
 
Heh...I got that too. I think they meant "...to prevent people using this betting strategy to meet playthrough..."
They really should not worry about this. Since roulette only counts for 10%, the effective WR on roulette is 300xB, so a player playing roulette by whatever strategy can expect to lose more than 8 times the amount of the bonus converted.
 
Mistakes happen, to be sure. Count me among those that are seriously questioning this as a mistake. Let's travel back and analyze this:

hi! this is not a complaint just yet! but soon maybe!!! [.. snip ..] so i spoke with erin on the chatroom (which i have a copy of) they had confiscated 130quid of my 200quid second withdrawal. she said because of irregular play!!!???? whatever that means!

Player is aware of an 'irregular play' accusation.

i didnt take any bonuses. and yes i was playing roulette.

Player informs forum members that a bonus is not an issue here.

hi!
i got a email this morning from 7sultans support on why they confiscated my winnings. it said 'as per terms and conditions equal or hegde betting is considered irregular for bonus playthrough purposes, therefore bets are not allowed cover more then 70% of the table'

the thing is, i never claimed any bonus!!!!

FIRST ERROR: Email support informs him he broke a condition bound to bonus play, and apparently have either not checked his actual deposits and bonuses, or are intentionally ignoring them.

ok, here is the latest.
spoke to chat and she confirmed that i didnt take any bonuses and i explained that my email said it was confiscated because of irregular bonus play. so then she said its also applies to normal terms and conditions that you cannot cover over 70% of the roulette table as they call it hedging bets and therefore irregular play. then chat timed out.
so i phoned up the uk helpline to confirm this and he told me that this was the case. [.. snip ..]

ERROR #2: CS chat confirms no bonus in play, but now claims the same T&C's hold true for non-bonus play. Forum members are quite distracted by this revelation.

ERROR #3: Player phones up UK help desk, and is again affirmed that these terms apply to regular play.

At this point, everyone is in agreement that there is no bonus issue.

got another email explaining the confiscation,
apparently its against the terms and conditions set by the player security company.

ERROR #4: Company now quoting bogus or impossible to contact entity

i emailed cs and asked what the player security compnany was and the reply was
´the players security company is part of the fortune lounge company and they are responsible for handling all irregularities at the casino. unfortunately they do not have a direct line but you can liase with them through the support desk.'

ERROR #5: Player contacts company to try and find out how to take his case to entity known as 'player security company'. Company affirms they are impossible to contact or argue to directly.

I am in contact with petshoppete and will investigate and reply to the issue as soon as possible.

Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

Wim in da house! Surely this will be sorted now! Unfortunately, Rep does not CONFIRM that there is no bonus at play here.

heres the update!
the rep indeed get in touch with me
he mailed his response.
he said he had a lengthy discussion with his player security and that out of ALL the 393 bets i placed, they were ALL on red and black (not allowed in their terms and conditions) which if you look at my history is absolute bull. true, a very small amount of them but not all. he also said that they emailed me after my first withdrwal about this and told me they had confiscated my winnings but i continued in this fashion, which is absolute bull. again if you look at the time of my withdrawals in my history you would see that to.

anyway, they did refund my deposit and let me keep a small amount of my winnings.[.. snip ..]

ERROR #6: Please keep in mind that everybody is on board that no bonus is at issue here, except still no Rep confirmation of this fact. Player is apparently now told that some sort of 'red/black' sequences got his funds confiscated.

HUH? We should add about 3 or 4 errors onto the number at this point, because that's an absurd response. It's so absurd, the forum membership starts readying some rope for the OP, since the rep is refusing to answer whether a bonus was at issue or not, and so OP starts looking like he might be lying (reference to Dwind).

Firstly I wish to apologise for this matter taking so long to resolve.

The reality is that there has been a gross misinterpretation of the Terms and Conditions as petshoppete did not receive a bonus and should therefore not have been subjected to promotion rules.

And FINALLY, 11 days later, after untold CS chats, phone calls, Rep PM's, and finally a PAB, player gets paid.

That's really a LOT of mistakes, and really a lot of points in time where a mistake could have been easily caught. Even after the player informed them that he didn't take a bonus, they started going in directions that had nothing to do with a bonus, then finally pay him because all of the BS they fed him was completely false.

I would have to think this would have a tremendous impact on something called 'confidence' in this casino. No bueno.

- Keith
 
Oh yeah, that's why we posted about it on the forums where everyone could see ... then they'll never see it, right?

Our next step is to do some TV adverts and maybe a billboard campaign, just to ensure complete invisibility.

With all due respect VWM, get a grip! Attach Removed (Old not found)

I don't mean "this single issue" has been "swept under the rug".

I am referring to the SERIOUS SYSTEMIC FAILURES that appeared at MANY different levels, not just a single error by a single member of staff.

What we have is this ONE issue fixed, but NO reassurance that ANYTHING has been done about the cascade of failures that caused a simple non-issue to take ELEVEN DAYS and some SERIOUS pressure to resolve.

It seems the bullshit was actually BELIEVED my staff all the way from CS to floor management, and even the "player security company" fully believed that play WITHOUT a bonus was subject to the SAME restrictions as bonus play.

This kind of thing seems to be happening more and more within the industry, so DESPITE the CURRENT level of regulation, mediation, and player pressure, things are getting even WORSE.

Clearly, we are not piling on ENOUGH pressure, rather than too much.

The systemic nature of the failures that lead to this make me believe this CANNOT be a "one off" with this one player, and that other players have encountered similar problems, and may or may not have been treated fairly by the internal appeals process.

There is no such thing as "just saying sorry" as far as this industry is concerned, there has to be a penalty - just as players always face some kind of penalty when THEY make mistakes.

The only real penalty players can exert is through the wallet, making sure that NOT changing for the better will hurt the income of the errant casino group.

If the industry itself doesn't "get a grip", the danger is that the GOVERNMENTs will do it for them, as is already under discussion by the new coalition UK government.
 
It seems the bullshit was actually BELIEVED [by] staff all the way from CS to floor management, and even the "player security company" fully believed that play WITHOUT a bonus was subject to the SAME restrictions as bonus play.

It may "seem" that way VWM but that doesn't make it so.

In fact the strongest voice of opposition to the actions taken by the casino came from within the casino administration itself. Doubtless we added a little fuel to the fire but if it wasn't for those internal efforts we might be talking about a mini-Betfair here as opposed to being thankful that the player's issue got squared away as it did.

And I shouldn't make too much of the "ELEVEN DAYS" if I were you. That's not an outrageous period of time for a management mistake of this magnitude to be identified, isolated, articulated, debated and corrected. If you've ever worked within a large corporate environment you will know that generally speaking paint ages faster than major corrections of this nature seeing the light of day.

My point is that this isn't a particularly well justified occasion to break out the torches and start a witch hunt. No doubt the player was victim of a grievous lapse of judgment but the process and time frame in which it was isolated and made right is cause for hope, not panic, IMO. Needless to say, your mileage may vary.
 
It may "seem" that way VWM but that doesn't make it so.

In fact the strongest voice of opposition to the actions taken by the casino came from within the casino administration itself. Doubtless we added a little fuel to the fire but if it wasn't for those internal efforts we might be talking about a mini-Betfair here as opposed to being thankful that the player's issue got squared away as it did.

And I shouldn't make too much of the "ELEVEN DAYS" if I were you. That's not an outrageous period of time for a management mistake of this magnitude to be identified, isolated, articulated, debated and corrected. If you've ever worked within a large corporate environment you will know that generally speaking paint ages faster than major corrections of this nature seeing the light of day.

My point is that this isn't a particularly well justified occasion to break out the torches and start a witch hunt. No doubt the player was victim of a grievous lapse of judgment but the process and time frame in which it was isolated and made right is cause for hope, not panic, IMO. Needless to say, your mileage may vary.


Maybe if people had actually WORKED AS A TEAM within FL, this would have been fixed sooner. If opposition to this was coming from INSIDE the casino, just WHO wasn't listening, nor engaging their "common sense circuits".

I might expect this level of incompetence at a white label, or rogue casino, but when this happens in respected operations like FL, how can players be confident that there is ANY casino that can be trusted to be fair.

This doesn't look like a mistake, but a POLICY CHANGE that has had the effect of embarrassing higher management into doing a U-turn ONLY because of the negative publicity generated, as well as pressure from within and from the PAB.

Players don't see all the internal workings, they only see what's on the outside, which is an insane application of a rule, followed by a refusal to listen to reason.

Unlike other businesses, there is no regulator to "slap down" incompetence like this as there is when our energy companies and banks make similar corporate blunders. The lack of such a formal "slap down" means there is less of an incentive to reverse bad decisions before they detonate in their corporate faces.

This was such a GROSS error that I find it hard to believe even a TRAINEE could have made such a screw-up. It is quite astonishing that their grasp of casino mathematics is so poor, given that it is their JOB to know how games and promotions work.
Management should also have known that arguments like this challenge the basic assumptions that the games are fair and random, and players are quick to spot such discrepancies, and a few to cite decisions of this nature as "proof" that the random games CAN be beaten, and this is the "punishment" meeted out to players that exploit the "patterns" in the random outcomes. Heroes themselves said that the player "exploited patterns" in the Blackjack game to unfairly win a significant amount, which damaged the integrity of the software to such an extent that the provider yanked their license, and paid the player out of their own pocket.

There needs to be some kind of "incentive" to ensure that no other casino will DARE try this kind of argument again, claiming that players can "abuse" a game unfairly WITHOUT taking a bonus.

There have already been some ROGUE casinos that have tried this (notably Heroes Casino), but this has to be the first ACCREDITED casino to come up with this argument.
 
I'm not here for a witch hunt. I'm here now because I find the explanation by the casino unacceptably glib.

There was no confusion over these terms. What casino even has exclusionary terms when you're playing with your own money? If there's no 'terms' attached to playing on your own dime, and it's verified you didn't take any bonus, what exactly happened over 11 days? It's acceptable to spend some days looking at the player history because of a possible bonus issue, but that was nixed very early on.

It's ridiculous. And, nothing's changed, since there wasn't much of a misunderstanding to begin with. How do you change or re-word terms that weren't there to begin with?

- Keith
 
Mistakes happen, to be sure. Count me among those that are seriously questioning this as a mistake. Let's travel back and analyze this:



Player is aware of an 'irregular play' accusation.



Player informs forum members that a bonus is not an issue here.



FIRST ERROR: Email support informs him he broke a condition bound to bonus play, and apparently have either not checked his actual deposits and bonuses, or are intentionally ignoring them.



ERROR #2: CS chat confirms no bonus in play, but now claims the same T&C's hold true for non-bonus play. Forum members are quite distracted by this revelation.

ERROR #3: Player phones up UK help desk, and is again affirmed that these terms apply to regular play.

At this point, everyone is in agreement that there is no bonus issue.



ERROR #4: Company now quoting bogus or impossible to contact entity



ERROR #5: Player contacts company to try and find out how to take his case to entity known as 'player security company'. Company affirms they are impossible to contact or argue to directly.



Wim in da house! Surely this will be sorted now! Unfortunately, Rep does not CONFIRM that there is no bonus at play here.



ERROR #6: Please keep in mind that everybody is on board that no bonus is at issue here, except still no Rep confirmation of this fact. Player is apparently now told that some sort of 'red/black' sequences got his funds confiscated.

HUH? We should add about 3 or 4 errors onto the number at this point, because that's an absurd response. It's so absurd, the forum membership starts readying some rope for the OP, since the rep is refusing to answer whether a bonus was at issue or not, and so OP starts looking like he might be lying (reference to Dwind).



And FINALLY, 11 days later, after untold CS chats, phone calls, Rep PM's, and finally a PAB, player gets paid.

That's really a LOT of mistakes, and really a lot of points in time where a mistake could have been easily caught. Even after the player informed them that he didn't take a bonus, they started going in directions that had nothing to do with a bonus, then finally pay him because all of the BS they fed him was completely false.

I would have to think this would have a tremendous impact on something called 'confidence' in this casino. No bueno.

- Keith

IMO, you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for taking the time to detail it out.
 
Not sure what the point is continuing a debate about what happened..in fact, I'm still a little confused about exactly what occurred...but that is always the case.



If the casino made a mistake, they did a stand up thing and corrected it, relatively quickly in my mind. Stuff happens and I admired what they did and have more respect for them than the numbnuts at Rushmore.



Constantly looking for the dark side of people or organizations will set you free, because we all can find them. They exist in all of us. Finding the positives is a little harder, but much more rewarding.
 
yeah, thanks mate. I just thought an awful lot of details had been kind of forgotten over 11 days. Now the casino rep comes out and says "oh there's been a gross misinterpretation, player was paid, cheers", and that's it. :what:

- Keith

I hope the casino is getting the message that this most certainly is NOT "it", and may well not be "it" until someone sticks a fork in this thread.

Some of us have better memories than elephants, and even when an issue is years old, it is STILL remembered by at least SOME of us, and we will not hesitate to remind casinos that seem to be drifting back into their earlier bad habits. Hopefully, the good casinos will heed such reminders, and ensure that major mistakes are not repeated, as well as learn from the mistakes of other operators, so as not to fall into the same trap.

As players, we also learn from the mistakes of others, so should NOT be making the same mistakes ourselves.

The OP seems to have learned that if they want to play Roulette, then DON'T take a bonus, especially the new player one. This did NOT help him this time, and it was quite a struggle to get a fair resolution.

From this, we can learn that many casinos do NOT have staff with the necessary levels of understanding and common sense running the show, and that if we feel we have been "screwed over" we should fight on for as long as it takes, rather than just accept that they are right, and we are wrong.
 
Not sure what the point is continuing a debate about what happened..in fact, I'm still a little confused about exactly what occurred...but that is always the case.



If the casino made a mistake, they did a stand up thing and corrected it, relatively quickly in my mind. Stuff happens and I admired what they did and have more respect for them than the numbnuts at Rushmore.



Constantly looking for the dark side of people or organizations will set you free, because we all can find them. They exist in all of us. Finding the positives is a little harder, but much more rewarding.

The positive is noted, and of course it was the right thing. What's simply being asked is, what occurred internally that defines 'gross misunderstanding', and a clarification of how another instance of this sort won't end up another PAB? At this point, the term 'gross misunderstanding' is left to interpretation, since it's vague and rife with speculation. This impacts the casino in the trust department, and then might impact them in the deposit department. We're all for casinos making good, but understanding how this will be avoided in the future is also important for those who have memories around here, and might be offering guidance should someone post for a recommendation.

They can leave it vague if they want to, but the next incident that's posted about this casino about ANYTHING will be advantage: poster.

- Keith
 
Not that it's going to make much of a difference to those that have already made up their minds about how they want to feel about this but I thought a few facts and an alternate view or two might illuminate the situation a little:
  • it took about seven (7) working days for this thing to manifest then right itself. You'd have to be pretty picky to say that is an unreasonable turn-around on something like this.
  • contrary to several people's assumptions the company has taken steps to make it very clear to their people that this was an unacceptable error: at least two levels in the chain of command have been reprimanded for misconduct. That may not make anyone's day any brighter but in corporate life that's how these things go.
  • the company also conducted an internal audit to see if other "even bet" rulings had slipped through. One had and they've taken action to clear that one up too (in other words pay that player too).

There's been talk of punitive "incentives" to help ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. As mentioned, within the organization this has been taken care of. Outside the organisation you're not going to see much because that's not how these things work.

As Gret suggested above, you're far better off providing a positive incentive when a job is (finally) done properly than telling folks how shit they are that it happened in the first place. Doing so is more about someone's need to seek revenge (or whatever) than any forward-looking goals they may think they are advocating.

Further speculation on what happened within the organisation is pretty much fruitless: we'll never know EXACTLY what happened, largely because it's none of our business. If we're talking about the real world here then any reasonable person has to see that this is internal corporate stuff and the doors on such things are not open for public viewing. If that's what you really want to rail against then fill your boots but you are wasting your time and ours.

And, finally, this from the rep:
Every one of our websites has an e-mail link for unresolved issues.
These mails route directly to the Floor Managers with a copy to me and
they receive priority attention. Any player who uses this facility
(which was specifically created to give players an escalation avenue)
will receive personal and instant attention.

Hopefully the above will be of interest to some. If not, fair enough, to each their own.
 
Not that it's going to make much of a difference to those that have already made up their minds about how they want to feel about this but I thought a few facts and an alternate view or two might illuminate the situation a little:
  • it took about seven (7) working days for this thing to manifest then right itself. You'd have to be pretty picky to say that is an unreasonable turn-around on something like this.
  • contrary to several people's assumptions the company has taken steps to make it very clear to their people that this was an unacceptable error: at least two levels in the chain of command have been reprimanded for misconduct. That may not make anyone's day any brighter but in corporate life that's how these things go.
  • the company also conducted an internal audit to see if other "even bet" rulings had slipped through. One had and they've taken action to clear that one up too (in other words pay that player too).

There's been talk of punitive "incentives" to help ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. As mentioned, within the organization this has been taken care of. Outside the organisation you're not going to see much because that's not how these things work.

As Gret suggested above, you're far better off providing a positive incentive when a job is (finally) done properly than telling folks how shit they are that it happened in the first place. Doing so is more about someone's need to seek revenge (or whatever) than any forward-looking goals they may think they are advocating.

Further speculation on what happened within the organisation is pretty much fruitless: we'll never know EXACTLY what happened, largely because it's none of our business. If we're talking about the real world here then any reasonable person has to see that this is internal corporate stuff and the doors on such things are not open for public viewing. If that's what you really want to rail against then fill your boots but you are wasting your time and ours.

And, finally, this from the rep:


Hopefully the above will be of interest to some. If not, fair enough, to each their own.

Thank you, Max. I am noting the frustration in your words. This post had MUCH more information that any in the past, and I certainly feel these steps are valid. As I stated, if another poster signs up here with a problem from this casino, and this portion was left unresolved, there would be problems right up front... probably links to this thread provided.

We don't need to know EXACTLY anything. We just wanted to know something more than 'gross misunderstanding', and what that meant to them. You've given us that, thanks. I especially note the internal audit, that's a definite confidence boost.

I don't relish casino lynchings, Max. The info requested was not to meddle, but rather arm myself with a historical accounting of THIS instance, so I can be better informed if/when a NEW occurrence happens.

No disrespect, mate. I just wanted a few facts for the memory banks.

Thanks.

- Keith
 

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