Casino Complaint iNetBet Casino

[petrw111]

Hi,

iNetBet Casino do not pay me.
From July 27, I'm trying to get money from iNetBet.

I have sent them Passport, Fax Back Form, utility bill; they requested one more utility bill, I sent; they requested Neteller screenshots - I sent. but withdrawal were not proceed.

9 days ago they wrote me the email:
Petr,

Your account is currently under investigating by our fraud team. The team will contact you once their investigation is complete.

If there is anything else we can help you with please let us know.

When I have asked to explain, I got another answer:
Dear Petr,

Thanks for your mail.

As we said, your account is current under investigation relating to a string of fraudulent accounts opened using fraudulent docs. There are many aspects linking the account, hence the investigation by our accounts team.

Please could you therefore forward us a second piece of photographic identification which carries your signature, such as your drivers license?

If there is anything else we can help you with please let us know.

Regards,

Now they want another documents I don't have. It is 3 months after the withdrawal.

I think they just don't want pay me.

Please help.

 

[asianeyes]

Hi, Petrw. I would suggest you do a P.A.B.(pitch a bitch).

 

[Rostovtsev]

iNetBet Problem

Hi,

My problem related to iNetBet casino.

Account ID xxxxx

I made first casino deposit on September 27, for total sum of $400.
The bonus casino promoted equals to 50%. So it is $200.

After meeting wagering requirements my balance was $1191.

On October 18, I have sent them documents they required:
ID
Fax Back
Utility Bill
On October 19 they wanted fixed Fax Back form and one more Utility Bill. And at the same day I have sent them the documents.

On October 21, they wrote me:
Your documents are being scrutinized by the accounts team.

They will contact you if they require more information, in the mean time your withdrawal cannot be processed.

After the date I have sent to them 9 emails, asking to explain why it takes so long and when the payment will be done. they answered only once on October 25 with the same text:
Your documents are being scrutinized by the accounts team.

They will contact you if they require more information, in the mean time your withdrawal cannot be processed.

For now 10 last days they do not answer my emails at all.


Why I need to spend so much time to get my money????
Why they do not response me?

I never met such attitude before.

If somebody can help, please help me.

Thank you

 

[vinylweatherman]

It looks like they are "stalling". You have sent all the right documents, and provided the utility bill was less than 3 months old, they should have had enough to make a quick decision by now.

Clearly, they have NOT been able to do this, and are now "stalling" you because in all likelihood you have been placed "under investigation". This explains why there is this delay, but by "lying" to you because they are stalling for time, you see NO justifiable reason for simple verification to have taken this long, yet for nothing further to have been asked of you, nor evidence of meaningful progress from their side (such as payment).

Try to log in to the software. If your account is locked, you ARE under investigation for "fraud" without a doubt, and you can expect a lengthy delay.

You can now either contact the rep, or make a formal PAB. It is best NOT to inflame the issue by continuing to post more about this issue until you have exhausted the PAB process.

Many players get a good result through a PAB and a forum rep, despite endless efforts through normal channels having got them nowhere.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Isn't an ID card compulsory in Germany? This should give you TWO forms of ID. If you also have a driving license, you could send this too.

It seems another German player has a similar complaint, so clearly there IS something going on.

It looks like a number of German accounts are going to be affected by this, so a PAB is probably a good idea, even if only to let Max see what is going on, and come to an independent view on how the casino is handling this.

Rushmore were hit by a similar fraud some while back, and it was done through the use of fraudulent documents produced from illicit copies made from innocent holidaymakers who had entrusted "officials" with safe keeping of their passports. They may suspect the fraudsters involved with Rushmore are now trying the same trick with them, which makes passports alone questionable, since these are the documents that tend to be entrusted for safe keeping. I believe the Rushmore fraudsters had insiders working in hotels, who made copies of the passports of holidaymakers, and sold these on to the black market, where they were bought and "photoshopped" into passport JPEG files to fool casinos. Current technology has made this VERY easy, since most copiers nowdays are digital, and it is easy to get a JPEG file as a by product of making a copy, and store them on a flash drive that is itself easy to smuggle out of a business premises. Holders will get their passports back, and will have no clue what has happened.

Have YOU been on holiday recently, and had any cause to hand your passpoort over to anyone, be it a hotel rep, or a hire company wanting it as "security" on something like a jet ski, or a car. If you cannot see your passport, you have no way of knowing that it is not being copied, or misused in any other way.

This could even have happened a few years ago, by the same criminals that sourced fake passports for the Rushmore fraud.

 

[maxd]

FWIW this player (petrw111) had requested their withdrawal almost four (4) months ago and completely ignored multiple requests for a completed fax back until the day they posted here. The documents that were supplied turn out to be highly suspect and linked to other suspected fraudsters. The financial processor involved has subsequently verified that there was fraudulent activity.

The casino has good reason to be suspicious of the circumstances in this case. That fact that the OP has not filed a Pitch-A-Bitch doesn't help their situation much either.

PS. threads merged since the players have been identified as being directly linked.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Two "one post wonders" with similar issues, and no PAB forthcoming. It does look like this is the "Rushmore fraud" scenario all over again. Fake IDs are easily available, and are generated from GENUINE profiles that will check out. Rushmore ended up sending investigators to the players' addresses to ensure the GENUINE owners of the ID being used were the ones playing on the account.

Merging these two issues into one thread has made the connection much clearer now.

 

[maxd]

Two "one post wonders" with similar issues....

Apparently this is part of a major fraud ring bust so there's good reason to expect we'll be seeing more of the same.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Apparently this is part of a major fraud ring bust so there's good reason to expect we'll be seeing more of the same.

I just hope iNetBet handle the cases better than Rushmore, and accept that there WILL be innocent players caught up in this, maybe because it is their details that the fraudsters have stolen, and are now using.

 

[footdr]

There must be more to this story....

I have never found InetBet to be unfair. There is more to this story I am sure.

 

[colly]

i also doubt that a genuine player will be shafted by inetbet. Some years ago my acct was hacked into and a cash bonus withdrawn to a fake moneybookers acct. (the reason I won't use moneybookers any more)

Inet refunded the money to me within the hour from when i raised it and started an investigation with moneybookers and techs at RTG.

The correction was faster than a ot of casino's standard cashout.

Cheers
Colly

 

[Rostovtsev]

Very interesting

Hello Max,

I don't know what kind of information you got from iNetBet casino. But all is incorrect.

The facts are:
1. I made first casino deposit on September 27, for total sum of $400. I posted the message here on November 4th .
Is it 4 months from the date I made a withdrawal as you wrote?
2. I sent all documents on October 19. It was next day after they asked another Fax-Back. They never asked additional documents after the date. You wrote: ...and completely ignored multiple requests for a completed fax back until the day (my note: the day I posted here was November 4th - two weeks after I sent all documents to them.)
3. Why you merged two complaints? I kindly ask you to split it back and care my complaint.
4. I ask you to explain, what I should to do to remove all suspects and to get all my money.

Thank you

 

[maxd]

The facts are:
1. I made first casino deposit on September 27 ....
2. I sent all documents on October 19. It was next day after they asked another Fax-Back. ....
3. Why you merged two complaints? ....
4. I ask you to explain ....

1. I was referring to petrw111. I don't know the dates for your case.
2. See (1).
3. As I said, the casino has strong indicators that you and petrw111 are linked. The financial processor has confirmed this. Basically you guys are operating together and as such it's one thread AFAIC.
4. I believe I have, see above.

 

[Rostovtsev]

You wrote:I was referring to petrw111. I don't know the dates for your case.
If you mentioned me in your message, please insert the correct data, that belongs to my case. Otherwise please remove all references to me from your original post.

You wrote:As I said, the casino has strong indicators that you and petrw111 are linked. The financial processor has confirmed this. Basically you guys are operating together and as such it's one thread AFAIC.

Please explain how I linked to petrw111? Which financial processor?

And the most important questions: what I personally defrauded?
and which casino rule I broke?

Thank you

 

[maxd]

If you mentioned me in your message ....

As it happens I did not mention you in my original post. Nevertheless I have gone back to that post and made it perfectly clear I was referring to petrw111.

Please explain how I linked to petrw111? Which financial processor?

As you should know I am not at liberty to disclose or discuss the security information given to me by the casino. This is standard Casinomeister procedure, has been for years.

I'm sorry if you find that an inconvenience but I'm sure you know that "how linked?" and "what details?" are the first questions the real fraudsters ask because they want to know where they screwed up.

And the most important questions: what I personally defrauded? and which casino rule I broke?

Obviously we're talking about iNetBet here. Other than that see above.

Later: I should say this though: if you want your case examined in detail file a Pitch-A-Bitch. That process starts with the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ.

 

[LaurieJim]

I know I have been out of the loop for awhile but I have to go on record as saying that Inetbet is one of the most trusted casinos around, one of very few that pay within 24 hours.

There are those that would like to see live chat and or phone service but this is something I can live without as long as they continue to pay players in what is a fast fashion imo.

Inetbet being a multi million dollar company prolly has one hell of a security team in place to protect their interests and for that they can not be blamed.

I have complete faith in this casino as a player and afilliate, this is just my 2 cents about Inetbet, if the player was due money by Inetbet, they would have recieved it in less than a day or so.

Laurie

 

[LHofsdal]

Yes, I agree Laurie. I too trust Inetbet. I have never had a problem that could not be resolved with them. They are one of the few places I still have installed, and play at.

I think if the original poster was honest in his post, don't you think he would have been back already posting how "innocent" he really is. And Rosto, if you really feel you have been screwed, do as Max says, file a PAB, let them investigate the situation. It may take a week or two, but Max and/or Bryan are fair. This might be the best route to in your case.

LH

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Inetbet being a multi million dollar company prolly has one hell of a security team in place to protect their interests and for that they can not be blamed.

Laurie

It is no secret Inetbet (as well as other online gambling entities) have been setting up fusion centers through out the galaxy to fuse intelligence on fraudsters over the last decade. It has been rumored but of course per policy remains a mystery if these subject fraudsters have been actually detained at one of Inetbet's rumored world-wide detention centers.

Of course, the Inetbet fraudsters are maintaining their innocence as noted by the substanial international sales increase(s) in water hoses.

 

[Rostovtsev]

As it happens I did not mention you in my original post. Nevertheless I have gone back to that post and made it perfectly clear I was referring to petrw111.



As you should know I am not at liberty to disclose or discuss the security information given to me by the casino. This is standard Casinomeister procedure, has been for years.

That's ok.

I'm sorry if you find that an inconvenience but I'm sure you know that "how linked?" and "what details?" are the first questions the real fraudsters ask because they want to know where they screwed up.

I do not know what do YOU or iNETBET mean saying "linked". You and me now also linked, because you and me in touch.
What real fraudsters ask doesn't interest me.

Obviously we're talking about iNetBet here. Other than that see above.

I meant casino RULE not CASINO rule.
I want to know which rule, that described in iNetBet casino terms and conditions I personally broke.

I am a real player, deposited from my own money, played not restricted games. I provided all required documents - the casino doesn't say that something is missing. They just do not answer to my emails and do not pay me. That what I see.

If you want you can call me and we will speak. Do you speak German?

 

[maxd]

You are linked in ways that tie you to fraudsters, that's all I can and will say.

I don't handle cases over the phone. I need a 'paper' trail so email is it. If you want to discuss your case further (with me) file the PAB.

No I don't speak German. Bryan does though -- Casinomeister founder, head man and webmaster -- but he's on the road at the moment. He should be back in a week or two.

 

[vinylweatherman]

That's ok.



I do not know what do YOU or iNETBET mean saying "linked". You and me now also linked, because you and me in touch.
What real fraudsters ask doesn't interest me.



I meant casino RULE not CASINO rule.
I want to know which rule, that described in iNetBet casino terms and conditions I personally broke.

I am a real player, deposited from my own money, played not restricted games. I provided all required documents - the casino doesn't say that something is missing. They just do not answer to my emails and do not pay me. That what I see.

If you want you can call me and we will speak. Do you speak German?

Your resistance to suggestions that you PAB are making you look MORE suspect by the day. Unless you PAB, there can be no FORMAL investigation of this issue. When this happened with Rushmore, there WERE a number of innocent players wrongly accused, and they got justice by "playing by the book", and cooperating with attempts to help them.

As far as PAB is concerned, even seasoned members may find the process new to them.

You should also KEEP EVERYTHING you have regarding this issue, such as all the emails received, as well as the ones you sent. This provides a "paper trail" of what happened.

IF they believe your documents are fakes, they are NOT going to ask you for further items of documentation, which may also be fake. You now need to convince them that what you have already sent is genuine, and YOURS TO GIVE - i.e. you are not using somebody else's details to play at the casino, which is a SPECIFIC violation of the terms.

The "processor" is the intermediary between the account that you used to deposit with, and the casino. You can only use YOUR money at the casino, so any account used to deposit must be in YOUR name.

There is only so far casinos will go in explaining WHY a particular player has been "linked to fraud".

Innocent players tend to have been careless, perhaps playing on someone else's computer, or using someone else's account to deposit from. They can also be victims of a fraudster who has used their details to play online, and when the innocent player comes along, it looks like a duplicate account. Fraudsters do this because the chances that the ID they have stolen is from an online player are slim.

With "linking accounts", if you played from your friend's PC, you are "linked". If you both played the casino on the same PC, but then say you don't know each other, the casino has STRONG indications that you are both "up to something". Innocent players get caught up because they don't see this as an issue. Fraudsters get caught this way because they aren't very good at it

 

[Tengil]

The biggest seemingly harmless risk you can take is if you do player to player transfers with ewallets.
Many casinos will lock you out and confiscate your winnings if you have a transfer history with anyone that plays the same bonus the same time. That of course also means that you usually use the same strategy. Ewallets happily give this information to casinos.

So if you have done player to player transfers make sure to keep proof (screenshots) of how you have funded your ewallet. If the initial funding has been done with a p2p transfer you are almost always screwed.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The biggest seemingly harmless risk you can take is if you do player to player transfers with ewallets.
Many casinos will lock you out and confiscate your winnings if you have a transfer history with anyone that plays the same bonus the same time. That of course also means that you usually use the same strategy. Ewallets happily give this information to casinos.

So if you have done player to player transfers make sure to keep proof (screenshots) of how you have funded your ewallet. If the initial funding has been done with a p2p transfer you are almost always screwed.

What about where players have transacted with someone without knowing they are players? eWallets are not JUST for gambling, they are for other things too.

Neteller, for instance, is marketing it's upgraded P2P facility to customers, and had a "marketing push" recently to promote it. How many players know to steer clear of P2P where they use their eWallet for gambling?

It would be better to use something like PayPal for P2P, and keep their gambling eWallets just for gambling.

If they use their gambling eWallets for P2P, they should retain evidence of what the transaction was for. Legitimate transactions would normally be an exchange of funds for goods or services. Players simply "gifting" to each other DOES look suspicious, and could even be considered "money laundering", something casinos need to ensure they DON'T get involved with as party to the transactions.

I have done P2P ONCE, but it was to CM himself, and for the forum Haiti relief fund. I just hope CM didn't play the same bonus as me, and in the same manner

 

[Rostovtsev]

Hello Max,

The complaint has been released by me some weeks ago.
I also sent you a private message about two weeks ago with purpose to understand where the complaint stands now.

Why nobody answered me till now?

Thank you

 

[Nifty29]

For goodness sake!

Max - will you please let this guy know exactly and specifically what his fraud was and how he was caught?

How on earth is he supposed to learn to do it better next time??

 

[Rostovtsev]

Nifty,

May be I didn't explain myself.
The previous post relates to my PAB and not to the thread.
And I asked Max to contact me regarding the PAB.

In addition you wrote:
Max - will you please let this guy know exactly and specifically what his fraud was and how he was caught?
Why did you wrote that? I'm kindly asking you to remove the clause.

 

[maxd]

@Rostovtsev: Please note the following:

Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 08:12:31 +0100
From: "max.drayman" <[email protected]>
To: *******@gmail.com
Subject: regarding your Pitch-A-Bitch against Inetbet (**** Rostovtsev)

Hello,

I have received your PAB. Unfortunately there are errors in your submission that need to be corrected before I can proceed.

Have you read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ? (see

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

)

You should read that FAQ because it contains a lot of information that directly affects your PAB. In particular you should note the section regarding how to file a proper PAB:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

> Q: I posted about my complaint on the forums. Can't you
> simply take the PAB information from there?
>
> A: No, forum posts are one thing, our PAB form is another.
>
> If you're serious about seeking a resolution to your
> complaint you can take the time to fill out the PAB form.
>
> Failure to fill out the PAB form indicates that you've got
> better things to do. So do we.

If you'd like me to process your PAB then please fill out the form as instructed and I will be able to proceed with your complaint. Regrettably until then we will have to set it aside. Please take care of this as soon as possible so that we can proceed with your PAB.

Thanks!

Regards,
Max Drayman
Casinomeister.com, Player Complaints Manager

Your PAB form basically said "look at my forum post" and clearly that is not satisfactory. Since I have heard nothing back from you I have not been able to proceed with your PAB.

As far as PMs go I have one from you dated 16th November 2010, 12:17 PM (obviously before your PAB) where you outlined your case. I believe my reply was to direct you to the PAB page and FAQ.

 

[petro]

I am certainly not suggesting that these guys are cheats/criminals or anything but it sure does make honest gamblers look bad.
95% of the time the casinos cheat us. Now they have even more reason to steal our money. A heavy price is paid by us - the honest gamblers.

 

[maxd]

I am certainly not suggesting that these guys are cheats/criminals or anything but it sure does make honest gamblers look bad.
95% of the time the casinos cheat us. Now they have even more reason to steal our money. A heavy price is paid by us - the honest gamblers.

Not clear on the intention of your post. Whatever that was I would suggest you make an effort to back up such an inflammatory statement. If you don't it just sounds like another groundless and outrageous "casinos are evil" rant.

 

[petro]

I don’t want to derail the topic here but…

Max, the bulk of what I said was that the more people try and cheat, the stricter the casinos become. There is bound to be some innocent people who are going to have their money confiscated because of tightening security. Thus, it harms the honest player.

In regards to the statement, ‘casinos are evil.’
I think you would have to be naïve to believe otherwise but I don’t feel that ‘evil’ is the right word.
Fact of the matter is, many casinos are addicted to money. They will lie, cheat, and steal to support their habit like drug addicts.
Being in the PaB business surely you would have a very big indication of this by now.

I offer some proof of this too. It can be seen on the modern day roulette wheel.
If anyone knows about the history of roulette they would already know what I am talking about.

Because of the rampant cheating of casino operators, the roulette wheel was placed on top of the table to prevent devices being hidden in the table or wheel. And this is the type of wheel we have up to this day.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I don’t want to derail the topic here but…

Max, the bulk of what I said was that the more people try and cheat, the stricter the casinos become. There is bound to be some innocent people who are going to have their money confiscated because of tightening security. Thus, it harms the honest player.

In regards to the statement, ‘casinos are evil.’
I think you would have to be naïve to believe otherwise but I don’t feel that ‘evil’ is the right word.
Fact of the matter is, many casinos are addicted to money. They will lie, cheat, and steal to support their habit like drug addicts.
Being in the PaB business surely you would have a very big indication of this by now.

I offer some proof of this too. It can be seen on the modern day roulette wheel.
If anyone knows about the history of roulette they would already know what I am talking about.

Because of the rampant cheating of casino operators, the roulette wheel was placed on top of the table to prevent devices being hidden in the table or wheel. And this is the type of wheel we have up to this day.

This is a problem the industry needs to address, because as far as these innocent players are concerned, the casinos ARE "thieves and cheats".
It seems there is a lack of a decent appeals process, and some casinos simply don't respond, rather than help players find an outside appeals process. This leaves innocent players to do their own searching, where they will mix with the fraudsters, and tend to look all the same.

Being linked to fraudsters does not necessarily mean a player is guilty. The links may be spurious, or they may be VICTIMS of the fraudsters, rather than participants, the links being down to the fraudsters using some or all of their details to legitimise their accounts.

Unwillingness to engage in an appeals process once found & offered DOES however make it look like a player is perhaps not as innocent as they seem.

 

[maxd]

... Fact of the matter is, many casinos are addicted to money. They will lie, cheat, and steal to support their habit like drug addicts.
Being in the PaB business surely you would have a very big indication of this by now....

Sorry but that is not my experience at all and I cannot agree with your statements and conclusions.

What I have seen is that a certain percentage of players and a certain percentage of casinos are happy to do whatever they need to do in order to come out ahead of the game, monetarily speaking. I think the percentages are roughly the same, give or take.

In other words players are no worse than the casinos, and vice versa. Players see that casino fraud and cheating is rampant, but casinos see pretty much the same from the player community.

When comparing players and casinos it's pretty much as the saying goes: "There are no good guys and bad guys. It's just a bunch of guys."

 

[silcnlayc]

In other words players are no worse than the casinos, and vice versa. Players see that casino fraud and cheating is rampant, but casinos see pretty much the same from the player community.

If a casino were to stop all the silly T&C's and get down to the basic few...would this not make it harder for anyone to "abuse" the system per se? I mean...this includes straight up bonuses...done as a one time monthly reward or some such without any other attachment to it.

Think of it this way...a player signs up ...plays and then gets a free chip at the end of the month (or whenever casino deems it) for the amount of play a player has given. All games are included, with no playthrough or restrictions. this is EARNED for the players loyalty and investment.

Straight and to the point.

How hard is that? I mean, when has gambling become such a convoluted mess? Why have online casinos gone to the dark side? I cannot see any abuse happening if the casinos were striaghtforward and on the up and up...how can any abuse occur when there is nothing to abuse??

Just as the rules stand..simple is the best way to go..

I walk into a landbased casino, no one stops me at the door to ask for ID, or if I make enough to enter for play...no one tells me I cannot play any games, no one tells me the comp dollars I was given must be used at ABC games...I mean..

Isn't it time for all online casinos become just that, CASINO's?? I believe they have created a monster themselves and opened themselves up to be abused by those that can get around the system and are now being hit hard by their own ridiculous invented rules, ...get back to basics and you will have more than enough money rolling in without issues IMO.

.

 

[maxd]

If a casino were to stop all the silly T&C's and get down to the basic few...would this not make it harder for anyone to "abuse" the system per se?

If you're asking my personal opinion then no, I don't believe this "back to basic T&Cs" idea is the solution to the problems players face regarding the Terms. But then nor do I believe that the T&Cs of (decent) casinos are written to trap players.

As I've said, I do believe that the Terms are a casino's front line of defense -- at least that's how most of them see it -- and as such a fair amount of honest effort goes into making them what they have become. I've worked with a casino or two on drafting some of their Terms and in doing so it seemed to me that there were three somewhat conflicting parameters that they used in their efforts to compose the Term's wording:

1. make sure the casino is covered.
2. make sure the Term accomplishes it's purpose.
3. make the Term is comprehensible to your average player.

Roughly speaking I'd say those are listed in order of decreasing priority.

FWIW it seems to me that when a casino does try and put in a Term that is intentionally vague and generic it usually sticks out like a sore thumb. Things like "betting in the kamikaze style" and "bonus abuser" come to mind but there are obviously many other examples.

Also, IMO, these analogies to B&M casinos are pretty much pointless. If you imagined that every player walking in the front door was completely hidden behind cloak and mask and that the casino security people had both hands tied behind their back and could only track the players' activity by their footprints then maybe you're approaching something like an equatable analogy between the B&Ms and online casinos. The point being that the game online is so totally different that "like the B&M casino" arguments are more or less just so much hot air. The situations are very, very different.

Finally, it's probably worth mentioning that I have seen a very few casino operators becoming more aggressive and attempting to turn the Terms into more of an offensive weapon against the players that they see as their main problem, the scammers and fraudsters. So far the result of these efforts have been pretty abysmal, IMO, but it seems that once a casino operator adopts the "us VS them" attitude it's awfully difficult to show them that they are basically shooting themselves in the foot. They (more or less) see it as war and when there are casualties they shrug and say "that's war". What they don't realize is that at least half the blood on the floor is there own but as me ol' Pappy used to say "there are none so blind as those who refuse to see".

 

[petro]

I was thinking about starting a new thread about this.
But I will just put it here since the main topic is T&C.

A telephone and internet company here in Australia called Optus recently was taken to court, charged, and found guilty for the following;
- unclear terms and conditions
- unfair terms and conditions

As apart of the settlement they had to pay back millions to the customers that they defrauded. Also they wrote apology letters to their customers.
I recieved the letter myself.

How many internet casinos have unclear and unfair terms and conditons?
I have yet to find one that doesn't.
If they were land based they would be forced by the courts not to do this as in reality it is illegal.

 

[Rostovtsev]

Hello Max,

I have resubmitted the PAB.

Please let me know if now it is ok.


Thank you

 

[maxd]

I have resubmitted the PAB. Please let me know if now it is ok.

Got it, it looks fine. Proceeding.

 

[silcnlayc]

Max: If you're asking my personal opinion then no, I don't believe this "back to basic T&Cs" idea is the solution to the problems players face regarding the Terms.(the scammers and fraudsters)

Ok, yes, your opinion counts...I would like to ask this...since you seem to disagree with the simple solution...How can someone scam or create fraud against an online casino if the terms were short, to the point and clear cut.

The only reason I feel a casino has been inundated with scammers and fraudsters is because the casinos have made the rules so convoluted...many get through the cracks that the casino created themselves..

How can someone abuse...a monthly free chip for valued play?? How can someone abuse depositing their funds in play? I mean, explain to me how a casino can be abused if the terms on bonuses and play were layed out...clear and plain such as no play through on a bonus since it is yours and given freely?

I mean this mess with terms such as : Banned are the following areas..the 3rd street over there in tinbuktoo cannot play and withdrawals will not be honored coming from there...and if your street is a cross street fom south street, you are also included in this term.. How stupid can they get ??(The T&C"s)But yet, they are getting stupider..why..because casinos are trying to cover every opening they have created themselves...Geezes..I am so amazed they cannot see the forest for the trees..and continue getting stupider...

C'mon, the T&C's are there for CASINOS not the player..and the casinos only need these T&C's for what I ask?? Becasuse they have created their own monster with all this silliness..

Stop with the stupid bonuses first, then what does a player have to abuse??

So I ask, how in the world can anyone disagree with keeping it simple?? Nothing there to abuse if this was done..JMO..

Sidenote: since many casinos already have broken all USA laws...why do they need to add anything about the banning any states in the USA?Another questionable terms...geezes..they broke the law but would rather not allow the broken law to manifest into another broken law that they broke??? That is the way I read those silly T&C's...

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[colly]

Ok, yes, your opinion counts...I would like to ask this...since you seem to disagree with the simple solution...How can someone scam or create fraud against an online casino if the terms were short, to the point and clear cut.

The only reason I feel a casino has been inundated with scammers and fraudsters is because the casinos have made the rules so convoluted...many get through the cracks that the casino created themselves..

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That sounds eminently logical however the layers of complexity get added as it is actually easier at law to find a loophole in simple and open terms than in convoluted ones and people will take advantage of this.

In my field of law a substantial number of the major court cases have been on some of apparently simplest sections of the legislation if read on face value. Legislation which was 1 volume 12 years ago is now 6 volumes plus regulations- why- every new piece of legislation has its own terms ,definitions and references, penalty sections and antiavoidance measures. This trend in increasing rather than decreasing and I suspect the T and C's which reference contract law will be no different.

I agree it would be much better for everyone if we could simplify but I don;t see it happening until human nature changes. A lot of criminal and civil law will only ever be applied to the few who break it but where there are the few the rest of us will continue to have to deal with complexity,

Just my take but I do wish it would otherwise

Cheers
Colly

 

[Jasminebed]

I thought most scammers and fraudsters operated primarily in a number of manners:

1. Multiple accounts;
2. Stolen or False Identities and credit cards;
3. Play by "bots" for some softwares;
4. Poker players that collude; and
5. Possibly hackers

Many complicated terms are to prevent what the casinos perceive as bonus abuse. This "abuse" is sometimes seen as coming from certain areas (UK, Netherlands, Canada, Greece, eastern block countries or the Area of Markham, to name just a few). A term either prohibiting play or bonuses for these regions does not have to be complicated. Assuming a player was not fraudulent and entered correct information, bonus redemption and/or all bets could be blocked. Ridiculously high wagering hidden deep in general terms is complicated.

Groups that allow only one SUB across the group, without being clear about what other casinos belong to that group are a player trap IMO. Again, given that a player provides accurate information, the same name and birth date should at least trigger an inquiry from the casino to verify whether this is the same individual prior to issuing a bonus or accepting bets.

Multiple accounts in the same household are usually either forbidden or restricted to one bonus. Again, a simple check on the casino side when the same address is registered should trigger an inquiry, not when a withdrawal is initiated.

It may very well innocently be a case of multiple adults not being aware the other play there, despite having read the term. The casino is free to refuse the account, or the bonus, as they see fit.

Legal contracts are by nature usually lengthy, but there is a trend here to issuing a "short version" highlighting the main points, with a note that the full terms apply. There is a duty to make reasonable efforts to notify of changes. Casinos manage to send out notifications of bonus offers, new games and the like, a mass mailing for a change of terms should not be out of line.

No matter how complicated or convoluted terms are, there will be fraudsters. These terms don't stop them, it's the dolphins getting caught in the nets that's happenning.

 

[maxd]

I would like to ask this...since you seem to disagree with the simple solution... how in the world can anyone disagree with keeping it simple??

I don't disagree that they sound good in principal, I disagree that such a thing is ever likely to happen for pragmatic reasons.

For instance: it would be great if I ate small, simple and plain throughout the Christmas holidays. The benefits would be almost innumerable. In pragmatic terms though that's not likely to happen, so why waste my breath talking about how svelte I would be if I only had a thimble full of brown rice at Christmas dinner?

In principle simple Terms sound wonderful. In practical terms I ain't gonna hold my breath, for reasons I've already given.

I thought most scammers and fraudsters operated primarily in a number of manners ....

I'd guesstimate that in 30% or more of the cases where casinos confiscate funds the reasons given are some variation of, or are in some way connected to, "bonus abuse" which does not appear on your list.

Bonuses are the honey-pot for many, many players -- legit and otherwise -- and casinos are constantly fighting to make sure the honey ends up in the "right" hands and stays out of the "wrong" hands.

No matter how complicated or convoluted terms are, there will be fraudsters. These terms don't stop them ....

True, there will always be fraudsters. But the reality of the situation as I see it in my work with the casinos is that the Terms very much do catch the fraudsters. Not all of them, of course, but a hell of a lot of them. And as far as the casinos are concerned that's what counts. The odd "dolphin" is a reasonable loss as far as they are concerned, or so I would gather from the way I've seen them go about their business.

Let me use what I think is a relevant example: back in the day I lived in the bush, pretty much at the end of the road and the edge of "civilized" society. A local guy started growing corn one year and the bears seemed to love it. They trampled his crops by chasing each other around in them, they slept in his fields, they'd eat as much as they could, carried some off, etc. He tried poison, he tried shooting them, he tried a lot of things and none of them worked. The bears kept coming.

Then one day he tried a bear trap, one of those nasty, crushing leg-hold things. Guess what? He caught a bear in no time. And you know what he did? He let that bear suffer for almost two days in that trap. He stood watch to chase of any others while the trapped one bellowed and howled and whimpered and cried almost the whole time. It was terrible. I remember burying my head under every pillow and blanket I had and still the sound was too much to get a decent sleep. Finally the guy put the bear out of it's misery -- it was just a yearling -- but the "message" got out and (most of) the bears stayed away after that.

If I may hazard a guess I think that's where a lot of the "sink hole" Terms come from: they're there to provide a deterrent if and when the casino feels they need one. Sure it sucks, but they've got a right to protect themselves and this is, I assume, one of the best ways they've found to do that. You can argue about it until your face falls off but if it's working for the casinos and they don't have a cheaper, more effective way to do it then the Terms as they are are there to stay. As I say, until something better comes along.

 

[silcnlayc]

maxd: I don't disagree that they sound good in principal, I disagree that such a thing is ever likely to happen for pragmatic reasons.

I know..., burst my bubble...make my dreams a nightmare...nothing wrong with wishful thinking now is there??

Jasminebed: These terms don't stop them, it's the dolphins getting caught in the nets that's happenning.

Excellent way for stating this mess...I am tired of being one of them darn ole dophins...I want to PLAY dagnabbit! But, I am so put off by the mess going on...


....Gonna take my dophin butt outta here and gonna swim away for now....see ya soon! Old Attachment (Invalid)

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[Jasminebed]

I didn't include "bonus abuse" for a very good reason.

If you play by the rules of a bonus, you didin't abuse it. That doesn't make you a scammer or fraudster, provided you don't open multiple accounts or use false ID or IP addresses. Casinos are free to ban a player, bonus ban a player or whatever AFTER paying the winnings.

If you did not follow the terms of a bonus, then you broke the terms and don't get paid.

Convoluted, vague or contradictory terms make "bonus abuse" easier, not harder.

Casinos are the ones offering these bonuses. They know the house edge on their games, and what EV these bonuses have. If they consistently offer +EV bonuses to new players, with large deposit amounts and no caps on withdrawals, perhaps they might want to revise the terms of their bonuses.

If they don't have anyone on staff that can do math, you can hire people on a contract basis.

Offering loyal players a +EV bonus from time to time is a player retention tool.

 

[leonardo99]

Multiple accounts in the same household are usually either forbidden or restricted to one bonus. Again, a simple check on the casino side when the same address is registered should trigger an inquiry, not when a withdrawal is initiated.

It may very well innocently be a case of multiple adults not being aware the other play there, despite having read the term. The casino is free to refuse the account, or the bonus, as they see fit.

I agree here..Why casinos not forbiden you registration if the IP was used by another player? Why the casions let you deposit and more than that will give you generous bonus?
I tell you why..Hopping you will loose your deposit..In this situation everything is fine for the casino.
If you will try to withdraw ..account closed, and winnings voided. "You broke the terms"

This problem can be easy solved..Casinos must allow to register only one account from the one IP. If anybody try to register another account from the same IP, he will receivie one message like "This ip is used by another player, please contact the support"

Of course can be exceptions, but these exceptions must be talked with casino support before playing..

 

[Rostovtsev]

Hello Max,

A month ago you have accepted my PAB.

Where it stands now?

Thank you

 

[Rostovtsev]

Hello Max,

Ten more days over and you didn't reply.

Please update me with your investigation.

Thank you

 

[maxd]

Check your email. My response to you was sent several days ago.

As to the "over a month ago" business, it helps considerably if you read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ as you stated you had and follow the basic PAB instructions. We cannot proceed with incomplete or misfiled complaints until the problems are corrected. You were told this in detail the same day you submitted your PAB. It took you over three weeks to properly complete and re-file your PAB. This accounts for a considerable amount of the delay you may feel you have experienced.

 

[The Dude]

I've taken the liberty of upgrading these two players account to closed. They can take it elsewhere.

 

[kombucha]

i read this thread and i think some ppl take the terms way to serious i think.... ofcourse try to follow them but then again it's not the holy grail or something...

some shit just doesn't make sense sometimes, it's like putting something in it that you can only wihdrawl while wearing a clowns suit and take a picture of yourself infront of the screen when you hit a JP...

 

[colly]

Nominated as one of the silliest posts I have read this year.

You need to take terms seriously whether they make sense or not- if you are opening an account or using a bonus they are the holy grail when it comes to getting your money. How many times on this board have we seen monster threads because people didn't read the terms and then expected to be paid.