Casino Complaint iNetBet Casino

[Rostovtsev]

Nifty,

May be I didn't explain myself.
The previous post relates to my PAB and not to the thread.
And I asked Max to contact me regarding the PAB.

In addition you wrote:
Max - will you please let this guy know exactly and specifically what his fraud was and how he was caught?
Why did you wrote that? I'm kindly asking you to remove the clause.

 

[maxd]

@Rostovtsev: Please note the following:

Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 08:12:31 +0100
From: "max.drayman" <max.drayman@casinomeister.com>
To: *******@gmail.com
Subject: regarding your Pitch-A-Bitch against Inetbet (**** Rostovtsev)

Hello,

I have received your PAB. Unfortunately there are errors in your submission that need to be corrected before I can proceed.

Have you read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ? (see

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

)

You should read that FAQ because it contains a lot of information that directly affects your PAB. In particular you should note the section regarding how to file a proper PAB:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

> Q: I posted about my complaint on the forums. Can't you
> simply take the PAB information from there?
>
> A: No, forum posts are one thing, our PAB form is another.
>
> If you're serious about seeking a resolution to your
> complaint you can take the time to fill out the PAB form.
>
> Failure to fill out the PAB form indicates that you've got
> better things to do. So do we.

If you'd like me to process your PAB then please fill out the form as instructed and I will be able to proceed with your complaint. Regrettably until then we will have to set it aside. Please take care of this as soon as possible so that we can proceed with your PAB.

Thanks!

Regards,
Max Drayman
Casinomeister.com, Player Complaints Manager

Your PAB form basically said "look at my forum post" and clearly that is not satisfactory. Since I have heard nothing back from you I have not been able to proceed with your PAB.

As far as PMs go I have one from you dated 16th November 2010, 12:17 PM (obviously before your PAB) where you outlined your case. I believe my reply was to direct you to the PAB page and FAQ.

 

[petro]

I am certainly not suggesting that these guys are cheats/criminals or anything but it sure does make honest gamblers look bad.
95% of the time the casinos cheat us. Now they have even more reason to steal our money. A heavy price is paid by us - the honest gamblers.

 

[maxd]

I am certainly not suggesting that these guys are cheats/criminals or anything but it sure does make honest gamblers look bad.
95% of the time the casinos cheat us. Now they have even more reason to steal our money. A heavy price is paid by us - the honest gamblers.

Not clear on the intention of your post. Whatever that was I would suggest you make an effort to back up such an inflammatory statement. If you don't it just sounds like another groundless and outrageous "casinos are evil" rant.

 

[petro]

I don’t want to derail the topic here but…

Max, the bulk of what I said was that the more people try and cheat, the stricter the casinos become. There is bound to be some innocent people who are going to have their money confiscated because of tightening security. Thus, it harms the honest player.

In regards to the statement, ‘casinos are evil.’
I think you would have to be naïve to believe otherwise but I don’t feel that ‘evil’ is the right word.
Fact of the matter is, many casinos are addicted to money. They will lie, cheat, and steal to support their habit like drug addicts.
Being in the PaB business surely you would have a very big indication of this by now.

I offer some proof of this too. It can be seen on the modern day roulette wheel.
If anyone knows about the history of roulette they would already know what I am talking about.

Because of the rampant cheating of casino operators, the roulette wheel was placed on top of the table to prevent devices being hidden in the table or wheel. And this is the type of wheel we have up to this day.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I don’t want to derail the topic here but…

Max, the bulk of what I said was that the more people try and cheat, the stricter the casinos become. There is bound to be some innocent people who are going to have their money confiscated because of tightening security. Thus, it harms the honest player.

In regards to the statement, ‘casinos are evil.’
I think you would have to be naïve to believe otherwise but I don’t feel that ‘evil’ is the right word.
Fact of the matter is, many casinos are addicted to money. They will lie, cheat, and steal to support their habit like drug addicts.
Being in the PaB business surely you would have a very big indication of this by now.

I offer some proof of this too. It can be seen on the modern day roulette wheel.
If anyone knows about the history of roulette they would already know what I am talking about.

Because of the rampant cheating of casino operators, the roulette wheel was placed on top of the table to prevent devices being hidden in the table or wheel. And this is the type of wheel we have up to this day.

This is a problem the industry needs to address, because as far as these innocent players are concerned, the casinos ARE "thieves and cheats".
It seems there is a lack of a decent appeals process, and some casinos simply don't respond, rather than help players find an outside appeals process. This leaves innocent players to do their own searching, where they will mix with the fraudsters, and tend to look all the same.

Being linked to fraudsters does not necessarily mean a player is guilty. The links may be spurious, or they may be VICTIMS of the fraudsters, rather than participants, the links being down to the fraudsters using some or all of their details to legitimise their accounts.

Unwillingness to engage in an appeals process once found & offered DOES however make it look like a player is perhaps not as innocent as they seem.

 

[maxd]

... Fact of the matter is, many casinos are addicted to money. They will lie, cheat, and steal to support their habit like drug addicts.
Being in the PaB business surely you would have a very big indication of this by now....

Sorry but that is not my experience at all and I cannot agree with your statements and conclusions.

What I have seen is that a certain percentage of players and a certain percentage of casinos are happy to do whatever they need to do in order to come out ahead of the game, monetarily speaking. I think the percentages are roughly the same, give or take.

In other words players are no worse than the casinos, and vice versa. Players see that casino fraud and cheating is rampant, but casinos see pretty much the same from the player community.

When comparing players and casinos it's pretty much as the saying goes: "There are no good guys and bad guys. It's just a bunch of guys."

 

[silcnlayc]

In other words players are no worse than the casinos, and vice versa. Players see that casino fraud and cheating is rampant, but casinos see pretty much the same from the player community.

If a casino were to stop all the silly T&C's and get down to the basic few...would this not make it harder for anyone to "abuse" the system per se? I mean...this includes straight up bonuses...done as a one time monthly reward or some such without any other attachment to it.

Think of it this way...a player signs up ...plays and then gets a free chip at the end of the month (or whenever casino deems it) for the amount of play a player has given. All games are included, with no playthrough or restrictions. this is EARNED for the players loyalty and investment.

Straight and to the point.

How hard is that? I mean, when has gambling become such a convoluted mess? Why have online casinos gone to the dark side? I cannot see any abuse happening if the casinos were striaghtforward and on the up and up...how can any abuse occur when there is nothing to abuse??

Just as the rules stand..simple is the best way to go..

I walk into a landbased casino, no one stops me at the door to ask for ID, or if I make enough to enter for play...no one tells me I cannot play any games, no one tells me the comp dollars I was given must be used at ABC games...I mean..

Isn't it time for all online casinos become just that, CASINO's?? I believe they have created a monster themselves and opened themselves up to be abused by those that can get around the system and are now being hit hard by their own ridiculous invented rules, ...get back to basics and you will have more than enough money rolling in without issues IMO.

.

 

[maxd]

If a casino were to stop all the silly T&C's and get down to the basic few...would this not make it harder for anyone to "abuse" the system per se?

If you're asking my personal opinion then no, I don't believe this "back to basic T&Cs" idea is the solution to the problems players face regarding the Terms. But then nor do I believe that the T&Cs of (decent) casinos are written to trap players.

As I've said, I do believe that the Terms are a casino's front line of defense -- at least that's how most of them see it -- and as such a fair amount of honest effort goes into making them what they have become. I've worked with a casino or two on drafting some of their Terms and in doing so it seemed to me that there were three somewhat conflicting parameters that they used in their efforts to compose the Term's wording:

1. make sure the casino is covered.
2. make sure the Term accomplishes it's purpose.
3. make the Term is comprehensible to your average player.

Roughly speaking I'd say those are listed in order of decreasing priority.

FWIW it seems to me that when a casino does try and put in a Term that is intentionally vague and generic it usually sticks out like a sore thumb. Things like "betting in the kamikaze style" and "bonus abuser" come to mind but there are obviously many other examples.

Also, IMO, these analogies to B&M casinos are pretty much pointless. If you imagined that every player walking in the front door was completely hidden behind cloak and mask and that the casino security people had both hands tied behind their back and could only track the players' activity by their footprints then maybe you're approaching something like an equatable analogy between the B&Ms and online casinos. The point being that the game online is so totally different that "like the B&M casino" arguments are more or less just so much hot air. The situations are very, very different.

Finally, it's probably worth mentioning that I have seen a very few casino operators becoming more aggressive and attempting to turn the Terms into more of an offensive weapon against the players that they see as their main problem, the scammers and fraudsters. So far the result of these efforts have been pretty abysmal, IMO, but it seems that once a casino operator adopts the "us VS them" attitude it's awfully difficult to show them that they are basically shooting themselves in the foot. They (more or less) see it as war and when there are casualties they shrug and say "that's war". What they don't realize is that at least half the blood on the floor is there own but as me ol' Pappy used to say "there are none so blind as those who refuse to see".

 

[petro]

I was thinking about starting a new thread about this.
But I will just put it here since the main topic is T&C.

A telephone and internet company here in Australia called Optus recently was taken to court, charged, and found guilty for the following;
- unclear terms and conditions
- unfair terms and conditions

As apart of the settlement they had to pay back millions to the customers that they defrauded. Also they wrote apology letters to their customers.
I recieved the letter myself.

How many internet casinos have unclear and unfair terms and conditons?
I have yet to find one that doesn't.
If they were land based they would be forced by the courts not to do this as in reality it is illegal.

 

[Rostovtsev]

Hello Max,

I have resubmitted the PAB.

Please let me know if now it is ok.


Thank you

 

[maxd]

I have resubmitted the PAB. Please let me know if now it is ok.

Got it, it looks fine. Proceeding.

 

[silcnlayc]

Max: If you're asking my personal opinion then no, I don't believe this "back to basic T&Cs" idea is the solution to the problems players face regarding the Terms.(the scammers and fraudsters)

Ok, yes, your opinion counts...I would like to ask this...since you seem to disagree with the simple solution...How can someone scam or create fraud against an online casino if the terms were short, to the point and clear cut.

The only reason I feel a casino has been inundated with scammers and fraudsters is because the casinos have made the rules so convoluted...many get through the cracks that the casino created themselves..

How can someone abuse...a monthly free chip for valued play?? How can someone abuse depositing their funds in play? I mean, explain to me how a casino can be abused if the terms on bonuses and play were layed out...clear and plain such as no play through on a bonus since it is yours and given freely?

I mean this mess with terms such as : Banned are the following areas..the 3rd street over there in tinbuktoo cannot play and withdrawals will not be honored coming from there...and if your street is a cross street fom south street, you are also included in this term.. How stupid can they get ??(The T&C"s)But yet, they are getting stupider..why..because casinos are trying to cover every opening they have created themselves...Geezes..I am so amazed they cannot see the forest for the trees..and continue getting stupider...

C'mon, the T&C's are there for CASINOS not the player..and the casinos only need these T&C's for what I ask?? Becasuse they have created their own monster with all this silliness..

Stop with the stupid bonuses first, then what does a player have to abuse??

So I ask, how in the world can anyone disagree with keeping it simple?? Nothing there to abuse if this was done..JMO..

Sidenote: since many casinos already have broken all USA laws...why do they need to add anything about the banning any states in the USA?Another questionable terms...geezes..they broke the law but would rather not allow the broken law to manifest into another broken law that they broke??? That is the way I read those silly T&C's...

.

 

[colly]

Ok, yes, your opinion counts...I would like to ask this...since you seem to disagree with the simple solution...How can someone scam or create fraud against an online casino if the terms were short, to the point and clear cut.

The only reason I feel a casino has been inundated with scammers and fraudsters is because the casinos have made the rules so convoluted...many get through the cracks that the casino created themselves..

.

That sounds eminently logical however the layers of complexity get added as it is actually easier at law to find a loophole in simple and open terms than in convoluted ones and people will take advantage of this.

In my field of law a substantial number of the major court cases have been on some of apparently simplest sections of the legislation if read on face value. Legislation which was 1 volume 12 years ago is now 6 volumes plus regulations- why- every new piece of legislation has its own terms ,definitions and references, penalty sections and antiavoidance measures. This trend in increasing rather than decreasing and I suspect the T and C's which reference contract law will be no different.

I agree it would be much better for everyone if we could simplify but I don;t see it happening until human nature changes. A lot of criminal and civil law will only ever be applied to the few who break it but where there are the few the rest of us will continue to have to deal with complexity,

Just my take but I do wish it would otherwise

Cheers
Colly

 

[Jasminebed]

I thought most scammers and fraudsters operated primarily in a number of manners:

1. Multiple accounts;
2. Stolen or False Identities and credit cards;
3. Play by "bots" for some softwares;
4. Poker players that collude; and
5. Possibly hackers

Many complicated terms are to prevent what the casinos perceive as bonus abuse. This "abuse" is sometimes seen as coming from certain areas (UK, Netherlands, Canada, Greece, eastern block countries or the Area of Markham, to name just a few). A term either prohibiting play or bonuses for these regions does not have to be complicated. Assuming a player was not fraudulent and entered correct information, bonus redemption and/or all bets could be blocked. Ridiculously high wagering hidden deep in general terms is complicated.

Groups that allow only one SUB across the group, without being clear about what other casinos belong to that group are a player trap IMO. Again, given that a player provides accurate information, the same name and birth date should at least trigger an inquiry from the casino to verify whether this is the same individual prior to issuing a bonus or accepting bets.

Multiple accounts in the same household are usually either forbidden or restricted to one bonus. Again, a simple check on the casino side when the same address is registered should trigger an inquiry, not when a withdrawal is initiated.

It may very well innocently be a case of multiple adults not being aware the other play there, despite having read the term. The casino is free to refuse the account, or the bonus, as they see fit.

Legal contracts are by nature usually lengthy, but there is a trend here to issuing a "short version" highlighting the main points, with a note that the full terms apply. There is a duty to make reasonable efforts to notify of changes. Casinos manage to send out notifications of bonus offers, new games and the like, a mass mailing for a change of terms should not be out of line.

No matter how complicated or convoluted terms are, there will be fraudsters. These terms don't stop them, it's the dolphins getting caught in the nets that's happenning.

 

[maxd]

I would like to ask this...since you seem to disagree with the simple solution... how in the world can anyone disagree with keeping it simple??

I don't disagree that they sound good in principal, I disagree that such a thing is ever likely to happen for pragmatic reasons.

For instance: it would be great if I ate small, simple and plain throughout the Christmas holidays. The benefits would be almost innumerable. In pragmatic terms though that's not likely to happen, so why waste my breath talking about how svelte I would be if I only had a thimble full of brown rice at Christmas dinner?

In principle simple Terms sound wonderful. In practical terms I ain't gonna hold my breath, for reasons I've already given.

I thought most scammers and fraudsters operated primarily in a number of manners ....

I'd guesstimate that in 30% or more of the cases where casinos confiscate funds the reasons given are some variation of, or are in some way connected to, "bonus abuse" which does not appear on your list.

Bonuses are the honey-pot for many, many players -- legit and otherwise -- and casinos are constantly fighting to make sure the honey ends up in the "right" hands and stays out of the "wrong" hands.

No matter how complicated or convoluted terms are, there will be fraudsters. These terms don't stop them ....

True, there will always be fraudsters. But the reality of the situation as I see it in my work with the casinos is that the Terms very much do catch the fraudsters. Not all of them, of course, but a hell of a lot of them. And as far as the casinos are concerned that's what counts. The odd "dolphin" is a reasonable loss as far as they are concerned, or so I would gather from the way I've seen them go about their business.

Let me use what I think is a relevant example: back in the day I lived in the bush, pretty much at the end of the road and the edge of "civilized" society. A local guy started growing corn one year and the bears seemed to love it. They trampled his crops by chasing each other around in them, they slept in his fields, they'd eat as much as they could, carried some off, etc. He tried poison, he tried shooting them, he tried a lot of things and none of them worked. The bears kept coming.

Then one day he tried a bear trap, one of those nasty, crushing leg-hold things. Guess what? He caught a bear in no time. And you know what he did? He let that bear suffer for almost two days in that trap. He stood watch to chase of any others while the trapped one bellowed and howled and whimpered and cried almost the whole time. It was terrible. I remember burying my head under every pillow and blanket I had and still the sound was too much to get a decent sleep. Finally the guy put the bear out of it's misery -- it was just a yearling -- but the "message" got out and (most of) the bears stayed away after that.

If I may hazard a guess I think that's where a lot of the "sink hole" Terms come from: they're there to provide a deterrent if and when the casino feels they need one. Sure it sucks, but they've got a right to protect themselves and this is, I assume, one of the best ways they've found to do that. You can argue about it until your face falls off but if it's working for the casinos and they don't have a cheaper, more effective way to do it then the Terms as they are are there to stay. As I say, until something better comes along.

 

[silcnlayc]

maxd: I don't disagree that they sound good in principal, I disagree that such a thing is ever likely to happen for pragmatic reasons.

I know..., burst my bubble...make my dreams a nightmare...nothing wrong with wishful thinking now is there??

Jasminebed: These terms don't stop them, it's the dolphins getting caught in the nets that's happenning.

Excellent way for stating this mess...I am tired of being one of them darn ole dophins...I want to PLAY dagnabbit! But, I am so put off by the mess going on...


....Gonna take my dophin butt outta here and gonna swim away for now....see ya soon! Old Attachment (Invalid)

.

 

[Jasminebed]

I didn't include "bonus abuse" for a very good reason.

If you play by the rules of a bonus, you didin't abuse it. That doesn't make you a scammer or fraudster, provided you don't open multiple accounts or use false ID or IP addresses. Casinos are free to ban a player, bonus ban a player or whatever AFTER paying the winnings.

If you did not follow the terms of a bonus, then you broke the terms and don't get paid.

Convoluted, vague or contradictory terms make "bonus abuse" easier, not harder.

Casinos are the ones offering these bonuses. They know the house edge on their games, and what EV these bonuses have. If they consistently offer +EV bonuses to new players, with large deposit amounts and no caps on withdrawals, perhaps they might want to revise the terms of their bonuses.

If they don't have anyone on staff that can do math, you can hire people on a contract basis.

Offering loyal players a +EV bonus from time to time is a player retention tool.

 

[leonardo99]

Multiple accounts in the same household are usually either forbidden or restricted to one bonus. Again, a simple check on the casino side when the same address is registered should trigger an inquiry, not when a withdrawal is initiated.

It may very well innocently be a case of multiple adults not being aware the other play there, despite having read the term. The casino is free to refuse the account, or the bonus, as they see fit.

I agree here..Why casinos not forbiden you registration if the IP was used by another player? Why the casions let you deposit and more than that will give you generous bonus?
I tell you why..Hopping you will loose your deposit..In this situation everything is fine for the casino.
If you will try to withdraw ..account closed, and winnings voided. "You broke the terms"

This problem can be easy solved..Casinos must allow to register only one account from the one IP. If anybody try to register another account from the same IP, he will receivie one message like "This ip is used by another player, please contact the support"

Of course can be exceptions, but these exceptions must be talked with casino support before playing..

 

[Rostovtsev]

Hello Max,

A month ago you have accepted my PAB.

Where it stands now?

Thank you

 

[Rostovtsev]

Hello Max,

Ten more days over and you didn't reply.

Please update me with your investigation.

Thank you

 

[maxd]

Check your email. My response to you was sent several days ago.

As to the "over a month ago" business, it helps considerably if you read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ as you stated you had and follow the basic PAB instructions. We cannot proceed with incomplete or misfiled complaints until the problems are corrected. You were told this in detail the same day you submitted your PAB. It took you over three weeks to properly complete and re-file your PAB. This accounts for a considerable amount of the delay you may feel you have experienced.

 

[Casinomeister]

I've taken the liberty of upgrading these two players account to closed. They can take it elsewhere.

 

[kombucha]

i read this thread and i think some ppl take the terms way to serious i think.... ofcourse try to follow them but then again it's not the holy grail or something...

some shit just doesn't make sense sometimes, it's like putting something in it that you can only wihdrawl while wearing a clowns suit and take a picture of yourself infront of the screen when you hit a JP...

 

[colly]

Nominated as one of the silliest posts I have read this year.

You need to take terms seriously whether they make sense or not- if you are opening an account or using a bonus they are the holy grail when it comes to getting your money. How many times on this board have we seen monster threads because people didn't read the terms and then expected to be paid.