IMPORTANT - CAP Euro Event Changes

[RobWin]

Actually, just for shits and giggles, here's an alternative viewpoint:

CAP primarily derive revenue from the affiliate programs advertising. The affiliate programs survive off players generated by affiliates. The more affiliates that attend the conferences, the more deals will be done. The more deals that are done, the more money affiliate programs make. The more money affiliate programs make, the less they need to advertise. The less they need to advertise...

I for one would never buy into that line of thinking simply because it's all about the money and enough is never really enough for any company, thus the reason there will always be advertising and advertising outlets such as these.

Can you tell me if I've come close Rob? I haven't been following this saga for the last year..so this past half hour was a crash course on the latest goings on of GPWA/Casino City/CAP...and all the highly ethical people involved with all of them.

I think you are definitely in the same room Pina, and you also summed it up purdy well too IMO.

I'm not equating the LAC conference as a CAP conference. As far as I'm concerned, even though there may be a CAP finger or two in the pie,

"There may be", Bryan? Well, by reading Alex's and Warren's posts...it has most definitely been made fairly clear now about their financial arrangement IMO, other than the percentage of split involved. I also think that judging by Warren's post and statement that CAP (Warren, Lou, whomever else) also has more than just a finger or two involved, wouldn't you at least agree with that?

Excerpt from Warrens Post: A deal was struck whereby iGaming Business (hereafter referred as "iGB") would handle all of the sales, logistics, and planning of these conferences, and CAP would handle all of the marketing to affiliates and operators. All invoicing was to be handled by iGB and there would be a split of profits on these conferences (the exact split is not relevant, nor will it be discussed from either side as our contract treats this as strictly confidential)

that's not a justification for an all out boycott of the event.

Well again, after all of the ethics and integrity issues of the recent past involving CAP, Warren, etc. etc....then what would be justification for an all out boycott in your opinion, just curious? I do remember you saying last year that you were boycotting that event, dinner, awards show I believe. What has made you have a change of heart or thought now?

The reason I am going is for my

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which I feel supersedes any affiliate conflicts/dilemmas/bitch-and-moaning/rogueness etc. since it deals primarily with the players and what they want.

That's important, isn't it?

Absolutely, that is most likely the most important aspect of the entire conference IMO, kudos to you Bryan for setting that up. Personally, I would have rather seen it at another event though where CAP was not involved at all.

All this posturing and banner waving is secondary to player needs IMO.

Agreed!
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[Casinomeister]

Well again, after all of the ethics and integrity issues of the recent past involving CAP, Warren, etc. etc....then what would be justification for an all out boycott in your opinion, just curious? I do remember you saying last year that you were boycotting that event, dinner, awards show I believe. What has made you have a change of heart or thought now?

No change of heart, I just don't believe it is the same thing.

I spoke with Alex in Copenhagen a few months ago and proposed the idea of having players join in a panel discussion. The reasoning behind this is that there are many players in the UK and a number of well-read veteran players are in the London area. The target audience is webmasters and aff managers and operators - all present at the LAC. There is really no other place where this can be done.

There's nothing in it for me except for doing it. Max is there on my nickle, and we have three members of this forum that have graciously accepted to be there and give us some guidance on what they feel is important.

As for last year, I never said I was "boycotting" the whole thing. I just said I was choosing not to go to the conference for a number of reasons. I went to the awards dinner - that was strictly social - but it was the conference I had no interest in.

 

[bonustreak]

All this posturing and banner waving is secondary to player needs IMO. I think a lot of people are forgetting that. It's because of the player that affiliates are able to run a business, and this is the first time EVER that players have been invited to share what's on their minds.

I am very happy to see this panel at the event and I wonder what took you so long to get this going, must be the beers slowing down the thought process Seriously I am telling everyone I know that is going to the conference that this is a must attend panel session, it is so very important that everyone remember this is not only about Webmasters, Affiliates, Casino Programs etc it is about the players too! There would be no iGaming industry without the casino players plain and simple. I applaud Bryan for once again standing up and reminding everyone of this fact.

People get so caught up in battles and worrying about who benefits from what and the players are always forgotten about. There are so many issues players are dealing with in these crazy times they need a voice at this conference and I hope to see this become a standard panel session in the future.

CAC has no interference and can be supported since I believe this year because the Prague super conference is in June.

PS. Rob make sure it is a fire proof mattress at least!

 

[RobWin]

No change of heart, I just don't believe it is the same thing.

I spoke with Alex in Copenhagen a few months ago and proposed the idea of having players join in a panel discussion. The reasoning behind this is that there are many players in the UK and a number of well-read veteran players are in the London area. The target audience is webmasters and aff managers and operators - all present at the LAC. There is really no other place where this can be done.

There's nothing in it for me except for doing it. Max is there on my nickle, and we have three members of this forum that have graciously accepted to be there and give us some guidance on what they feel is important.

As for last year, I never said I was "boycotting" the whole thing. I just said I was choosing not to go to the conference for a number of reasons. I went to the awards dinner - that was strictly social - but it was the conference I had no interest in.

Thanks for answering back and clarifying Bryan.

Don't know why but the past couple of months has most definitely made my head sore from all the banging it has went thru against my office wall...Old Attachment (Invalid) as far as discussing ethics and integrity issues with peeps here and there.

The more I become involved with this industry each and every day the more it makes me wonder why I even bother to get into a discussion involving ethics and integrity. This is not meant at you Bryan, just a general broad sweeping statement based on my recent discussions I've had in a few of the threads here regarding transparency, integrity involved in just simply closing the rogue affiliate account, ethics...etc. etc. etc. bla bla bla

Guess if I want to ever make the big bucks in this business then I need to just STFU, stop crusading and start playing ball with the "good ole boy network" it seems.

There are many various shades of grey, gray...in this business, that's for sure!
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[Pinababy69]

Good God woman! What's wrong with two cups tied to the end of a long bit of string?!

It's not just this industry. It's pretty much every industry that involves money changing hands. You think this industry's bad, go work in the music industry for a bit! Makes this one look like a prayer meeting in Heaven.

Wherever there is money, there will be hypocrisy and that's just human nature Pina. Can't be stopped...ain't unique...just the way it always has been and always will be.

Doesn't mean you can't change a few people along the way though. Just I think some people (not aimed at you) probably think it should change a few more than it ever will.

LMAO at the cans and string. Simmo, if I thought it would work, I'd try it, trust me. Anything to not have to pay Ma Bell (Bell Canada) one red cent.

Your other comment probably was aimed at me in part, and I would wholeheartedly agree with it. It's a character flaw, but I'll never understand why more people don't think like me when it comes to ethics. I could never compromise ethics and integrity for the sake of making more money, and I don't know how others can. It's the way I've always been, and probably always will be. It's the whole reason I ceased being an affiliate years ago. I only ever promoted four casinos/groups tops at any time...pretty hard to make money with that limited choice. And if I were forced to name casinos that I would feel comfortable promoting nowadays....it wouldn't be too many more than four or five at the most.

There's nothing in it for me except for doing it. Max is there on my nickle, and we have three members of this forum that have graciously accepted to be there and give us some guidance on what they feel is important.

I think the player panel is a super idea Bryan. Wish I could have been there, but my lottery numbers didn't come in. Damned if I'll use that psychic again.

I hope it proves to be useful, and becomes a more regular thing at other conferences and get togethers.

I read somewhere that there may be some type of conference coming up in July in Toronto. I'd like to find out what that's all about and who is sponsoring it?

Guess if I want to ever make the big bucks in this business then I need to just STFU, stop crusading and start playing ball with the "good ole boy network" it seems.
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The proverbial nail on the head Rob!! Do you remember a few of the conversations that you and BB and Rusty and I all had a few months back, in relation to money and this industry? You are now starting to fully realize how truly difficult it is to maintain integrity and ethics, and still make any decent amount of money in this industry. I still believe it can be done, but it is an uphill battle. And when you dare question anyone on their choices, you are met with indignation and people wondering if you're nuts. Ho hum.

 

[RobWin]

The proverbial nail on the head Rob!! Do you remember a few of the conversations that you and BB and Rusty and I all had a few months back, in relation to money and this industry? You are now starting to fully realize how truly difficult it is to maintain integrity and ethics, and still make any decent amount of money in this industry. I still believe it can be done, but it is an uphill battle. And when you dare question anyone on their choices, you are met with indignation and people wondering if you're nuts. Ho hum.

Yep, totally agree Pina. If there is a way to maintain integrity and ethics, and still make any decent amount of money in this industry I will damn sure figure it out. That's a mission I am on now. I've never failed at anything I have every attempted or started and I sure don't plan on failing at this venture. Thanks for the encouragement Pina, it's always appreciated!
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[Simmo!]

You are now starting to fully realize how truly difficult it is to maintain integrity and ethics, and still make any decent amount of money in this industry. I still believe it can be done, but it is an uphill battle. And when you dare question anyone on their choices, you are met with indignation and people wondering if you're nuts. Ho hum.

But again Pina it's not just this industry. It's EVERY industry. It's money, plain and simple and it doesn't matter where you go or which industry you are in, many people compromise ethics for money.

And many people don't like being questioned and forced to be open on a public message board by someone who themselves is hiding behind a comfortable curtain of anonymity. And the way in which a lot of people pose the questions are themselves confrontational.

Also, everyone has a different idea, or certainly different "levels", of what constitutes ethics. Like a debate I just had with Robwin in another thread. Of course there are obvious boundaries, but some are less obvious and people will draw their own. Where these are drawn in sand, those should be respected even if they are not agreed with IMO. This is one such case.

I for one would never buy into that line of thinking simply because it's all about the money and enough is never really enough for any company, thus the reason there will always be advertising and advertising outlets such as these

I don't either as it happens, but it is nonetheless a perspective that would work for an affiliate program that felt they didn't want to pay CAP any more than they have to, yet still needed to achieve their targets.

 

[RobWin]

Also, everyone has a different idea, or certainly different "levels", of what constitutes ethics. Like a debate I just had with Robwin in another thread. Of course there are obvious boundaries, but some are less obvious and people will draw their own. Where these are drawn in sand, those should be respected even if they are not agreed with IMO. This is one such case.

Yep I agree...and it was also a very good debate too that I thoroughly enjoyed...thanks again for participating and going head to head with me on that one Simmo...

I don't either as it happens, but it is nonetheless a perspective that would work for an affiliate program that felt they didn't want to pay CAP any more than they have to, yet still needed to achieve their targets.

Agreed!
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[Pinababy69]

But again Pina it's not just this industry. It's EVERY industry. It's money, plain and simple and it doesn't matter where you go or which industry you are in, many people compromise ethics for money.

And many people don't like being questioned and forced to be open on a public message board by someone who themselves is hiding behind a comfortable curtain of anonymity. And the way in which a lot of people pose the questions are themselves confrontational.

Also, everyone has a different idea, or certainly different "levels", of what constitutes ethics. Like a debate I just had with Robwin in another thread. Of course there are obvious boundaries, but some are less obvious and people will draw their own. Where these are drawn in sand, those should be respected even if they are not agreed with IMO. This is one such case.

I agree on the money aspect Simmo...whoever it was that said "the love of money is the root of all evil" was a genius (who did say it btw?).

While there may be hypocrisy and greed in every industry, I can honestly say that I have never come across it at the level I've seen in online gaming. I was a legal secretary for four years in a fairly large law firm, I worked at one of the largest stockbrokers on Bay Street for three years, I was the nightshift manager at a phone sex business for two years (didn't do the calls, I ran the business ie. booking the calls, keeping transaction records, running credit cards, advertising, etc), I worked in bars off and on for ten years as a bartender and a waitress, and I now run my ex's contracting business. Back in my late 20's/early 30's, I hung out with bikers and had/have a few that are very close friends. None of these things ever came close to being as sleazy as this industry is. And I say that with a completely straight face, and in all seriousness. The phone sex thing was a business, run professionally and with strict guidelines as to what was and wasn't allowed. Calls were monitored on a random basis to ensure these guidelines were adhered to. I never saw this complete lack of ethics with any of the lawyers or stockbrokers I worked with/for (both big money businesses). Even the bikers.....while some of their business may not have been "above board", there were no innocents caught in the crossfire. Christ, I've even known drug dealers in the past who have shown more consideration for their customers than some affiliates show for their players. So while I get what you're trying to say....my own personal experience differs greatly. I could work in a phone sex business for years, and hang with bikers for close to ten years (and still keep in touch)..but I couldn't stomach being an affiliate for more than a year or so. That says alot to me.

As to the levels of ethics...and more specifically, let's say what constitutes a rogue casino? I can certainly agree that not everyone has the same criteria. However, there are exceptions...I would think Virtual group being one of them. How could any webmaster who claims to have ethics or an iota of integrity....ever promote this group? They don't come more rogue than this, yet you still get some of the biggest webmasters on the net, who happily promote them, and even go out of their way to defend them.

I'm sorry...but I personally have never come across this type of behaviour in any venture or business or personal dealings I've ever had. And I'm no angel, trust me.

Interesting conversation though Simmo.

BTW, I've used up my thanks for today or I would have thanked your post Muppet Man.

 

[RobWin]

PS. Rob make sure it is a fire proof mattress at least!

It is fer sure Streak...lol
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[RobWin]

I agree on the money aspect Simmo...whoever it was that said "the love of money is the root of all evil" was a genius (who did say it btw?)

1 Timothy 6:10

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
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[Pinababy69]

1 Timothy 6:10

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
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It's biblical?? Well, bitch slap me Jesus!!

Thanks Rob...guess I should have been reading my bible instead of partying on Saturday nights, lol.

 

[RobWin]

It's biblical?? Well, bitch slap me Jesus!!

Thanks Rob...guess I should have been reading my bible instead of partying on Saturday nights, lol.

ROTFLMFAO Pina!! ...I'm a biker dude too and I knew that one...
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[Simmo!]

I agree on the money aspect Simmo......while there may be hypocrisy and greed in every industry, I can honestly say that I have never come across it at the level I've seen in online gaming.

That's because there is more money in gambling than most other industries though. Hence it attracts more people in fo a "quick buck". Affiliates, casinos, players...everywhere you look. The lure of money attracts people that want it, pure and simple.

Look at the land-based gambling industry and how Vegas grew up That would put online gaming's "ethics" in the shade by comparison

Everyone here would agree on the Virtual thing I'm sure. In the instance recently, I think I'm right in saying the affiliate agreed it was a major faux-pas and corrected their stance ongoing aswell. The issue dragged on because of these boundaries drawn in sand I referred to. Anyway, lets not go through that one again in this thread - we agree on it


PS. I used to ride a pushbike. Dudes

 

[Pinababy69]

ROTFLMFAO Pina!! ...I'm a biker dude too and I knew that one...
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LOL....couldn't resist.

That's because there is more money in gambling than most other industries though. Hence it attracts more people in fo a "quick buck". Affiliates, casinos, players...everywhere you look. The lure of money attracts people that want it, pure and simple.

Look at the land-based gambling industry and how Vegas grew up That would put online gaming's "ethics" in the shade by comparison

Everyone here would agree on the Virtual thing I'm sure. In the instance recently, I think I'm right in saying the affiliate agreed it was a major faux-pas and corrected their stance ongoing aswell. The issue dragged on because of these boundaries drawn in sand I referred to. Anyway, lets not go through that one again in this thread - we agree on it


PS. I used to ride a pushbike. Dudes

Fair point on the "quick buck" thing Simmo. Half of the problem with SOME affiliates and websites is the fact that the people just throw them together, and throw up banners for every casino in existence, without doing a lick of research. As you said...they're just looking to make some fast cash, with the least amount of actual work. And not many look at it long term in re: building the site, and offering real and valuable content. So...point taken on that aspect of it.

Agreed on the Virtual thing...only mentioned it to highlight the fact that the industry can't even seem to agree on a true rogue operation, and do what's necessary to make them shape up or ship out.

LMAO at pushbikes...ha ha. My funny Muppet Man...I'm visualizing.

 

[jetset]

I've been offline for a few hours and was delighted to see that after almost a year Warren has at last admitted that there is a CAP financial benefit from the affiliate conference under discussion here.

What a pity that such an fundamental notification - which doesn't include any really sensitive financial information - was not made early last year instead of all the verbal gymnastics we've been served up by those concerned.

I guess two cliches are appropriate here:

[In affiliate-land] Time heals all wounds and

Better late than never.

You have to give it to Warren - he's a survivor!

 

[jetset]

Actually, just for shits and giggles, here's an alternative viewpoint:

CAP primarily derive revenue from the affiliate programs advertising. The affiliate programs survive off players generated by affiliates. The more affiliates that attend the conferences, the more deals will be done. The more deals that are done, the more money affiliate programs make. The more money affiliate programs make, the less they need to advertise. The less they need to advertise...

Afraid that proposition is way too tenuous to be credible.

 

[jetset]

Re: Post #46

Thanks for summarising that so succinctly, Pinababy!

 

[Casinomeister]

While there may be hypocrisy and greed in every industry, I can honestly say that I have never come across it at the level I've seen in online gaming...

...The more I become involved with this industry each and every day the more it makes me wonder why I even bother to get into a discussion involving ethics and integrity. This is not meant at you Bryan, just a general broad sweeping statement based on my recent discussions I've had in a few of the threads here regarding transparency, integrity involved in just simply closing the rogue affiliate account, ethics...etc. etc. etc. bla bla bla

Guess if I want to ever make the big bucks in this business then I need to just STFU, stop crusading and start playing ball with the "good ole boy network" it seems.

There are many various shades of grey, gray...in this business, that's for sure!
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I don't think you're seeing the big picture quite yet. There are many ethical and player responsive/fair gaming entities out there. You're getting distracted by a lot of negativity which may be getting blown out of proportion at times. Sure there are ethically challenged people, but like Ian pointed out, you'll find this in every industry.

I have first hand knowledge of a crapload of casino failures where players were left empty handed. Players were screaming "rogue!" yet it had nothing to do with ethics - the nemesis was inexperience and mismanagement. In most cases, players received their deposits back - in fact it's a rare occurrence where players DO NOT receive their deposits back. That's some seriously bad shit - but that rarely happens.

It helps trying to put some of this into perspective.

And with an industry that is constantly under attack, you will never have true transparency. Imagine dealing with a psychopath who loses his bankroll at your online casino (his fault). Would you want him to come waltzing in and threatening your employees - or worse yet, dropping by your house and threatening your family? I think not. And believe me, shit like this happens.

And for every creep I've met in this industry, I've met about 100 good honest people. And yeah, I've have the privilege of meeting many many people at conferences and what not, so my "perspective" is somewhat broader than most.

As for what goes on in the fora, naturally people focus on the negative - for instance when Gambling Lobby went tits-up years ago. There was a shit-storm of freaked out players - it was a really big deal. In the end, there were a total of 15 players affected to a tune of about 15k in winnings/deposits - and it was all covered in the end by a new owner. This is one of many examples of what may be large issues, but in reality are not.

But who wants to hear about the hundreds of thousands of players who are quite content with the service and play action they receive every day? A litter of puppies don't make the news, but when they get runned over by a Monster-truck - it does. (eww - sorry).

In essence, I feel it's important to maintain a good balanced perspective on what is actually happening - and don't be lead by any pied piper. Make decisions for yourself.

 

[Simmo!]

Someone also recently pointed out in another thread that around 95% of people lose in the lonegr term, so the number of unhappy people is naturally going to be vastly bigger than the number of happy people. And, the whole gambling industry has a lot of "them vs us" inherent in the nature of the business: Big Bad Business vs The Little Man.

 

[Casinomeister]

Someone also recently pointed out in another thread that around 95% of people lose in the long term...

I bet he became an affiliate

 

[mojo]

No change of heart, I just don't believe it is the same thing.

I spoke with Alex in Copenhagen a few months ago and proposed the idea of having players join in a panel discussion. The reasoning behind this is that there are many players in the UK and a number of well-read veteran players are in the London area. The target audience is webmasters and aff managers and operators - all present at the LAC. There is really no other place where this can be done.

There's nothing in it for me except for doing it. Max is there on my nickle, and we have three members of this forum that have graciously accepted to be there and give us some guidance on what they feel is important.

As for last year, I never said I was "boycotting" the whole thing. I just said I was choosing not to go to the conference for a number of reasons. I went to the awards dinner - that was strictly social - but it was the conference I had no interest in.

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I'll just post what I posted at gpwa. I am on my way to exile island slowly but surely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexpratt
GPWA give us exposure via a private forum, in their emails and in
their mag so they get a free stand (worth 4,500), profile in
the delegate guide, logos on the website, and distribution of the mag
in the media area.

I'm sure 4,500 is not the top of the line booth. How many booths are
there again? 100? 200? How much advertising? What is CAPS cut again? I
must of missed that.

I found it. It's confidential.

Cap made 4mil a year on the CAP forum by strong-arming programs. That has been admitted, signed sealed and delivered by GPWA. Are
the confs the same? Taking advantage of our beloved aff programs?
Again? Little birdies tell me these confs are VERY expensive.

Has the Cardspike affiliates been paid yet? Who owns Absolute Slots
aka FortuneReel or whatever it is now? What happened with that?

4,500 x how many booths? Minimum? Maximum? To Cap again? Will we
let 2010 see an even more increase in price?

One year ago:

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December 8, 2009 Casinomeister writes:

Quote:
That's the problem with the affy's - short term memory loss. And that is
exactly what CAP is banking on - that in a couple of years from the
great meltdown, all
is forgotten...

Yes all is forgotten but not by affys. I am a great admirer of CM, please don't get me wrong .. however.. One only has to read. Affys are not the problem here.

Please lets not let what happened a year ago repeat itself. Protect our aff programs from CAP.
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[bonustreak]

I'm sure 4,500 is not the top of the line booth. How many booths are
there again? 100? 200?

Not sure never really counted them all but I do have 2 pics that you can look at and from them I can see that GPWA had a pretty nice set up and a nice size booth and if I remember right it was smack in the middle of the conference center and in a really good traffic zone but I am sure they can confirm that themselves. As you can see Villento affiliates had a rather small booth with no walls and I don't know the price of it but compared to the GPWA booth it was not as nice.

 

[mojo]

Not sure never really counted them all

Thanks for the pics bonustreak. :notworthy

Wonder how many booths and millions of $$$$ from confs? Also from the website there are platinum sponsers etc that gets better stuff.

Poor Villento!

Hugs BS.

 

[bonustreak]

I don't think it is about being poor anything but about how much money a company wants to spend on a booth Mojo. Some have massive and some have small it is all the choice of the operator. My point was that GPWA has a very nice booth.