Illogical ID requests

[Rusty]

First of all lets just say I'm thankful I actually got some nice play from a RTG Casino and I could make a cashout request.
24 Hours after my request I received this email;

This email is to inform you that we will require the following documents in order to process your cash-out request:



1. Clear copies of a valid photo ID (Driver License or Passport).

2. Clear copy of any utility bill (Bank Statement, Water or Light Bill, Etc.).

3. Credit Card Agreement Form for VISA # xxxx (last four digits) attached to this message.

4. Clear copies for your VISA # Xxxxx - Both sides with signed back, for your own security. You can hide/cover the three security numbers on the back side of your card. We need to verify only the first 6 and last 4 digits on the front of the card.



This documentation will be required in order to process your withdrawal request.

Now as far as I understand it a valid Passport is proof of ID.
If it is not then why request it as proof?

OK. so lets just say the Casino is paranoid for no good reason and include a Utility bill, overkill but hey lets play their game.

Whats that you want me to fill out and sign a credit card agreement form too?

Still not enough?
You want clear copies of my VISA card even though I deposited with Moneybookers?

What a load of Bull shit.
Unless someone can explain why all this is necessary when other Casinos manage just fine with either no ID at all or Passport.

As far as I can see there is One reason and One reason alone to make such over the top requests for ID.
They hope that at least some people rather than go to the trouble of downloading their agreement form,printing it out, filling it in, digging out their passport and a Utility bill , scanning them both, taking their credit card and photocopying the front and back or taking photos and uploading them to their PC and then attaching all these in an email and sending them to officiouspratsRus.com will just say screw it and reverse their withdrawal in the hope of winning something that is actually worth all the hassle this Casino wants to put their new customers through.

What if you do not have photo ID?
More likely what if you do not have a printer or scanner?

Even more hassle.

I don't know about you lot but it really winds me up:axeman2:

 

[Antonia1953]

Their requirements are the main reason I don't play at any of the RTGs. They take redundantcy to an all new level.

 

[Rusty]

Their requirements are the main reason I don't play at any of the RTGs. They take redundantcy to an all new level.

I can certainly understand that.

The thing is though not all RTG Casinos are this over the top, some actually have common sense and even if they want proof of ID will accept a scanned Passport or come to some compromise arrangement.
That makes this request all the more annoying.

I very nearly replied asking if they would like a DNA swab and a urine sample too but didn't want to put ideas in to their heads.

My passport is good enough ID to get me access to some of the most security conscious places in the World but it isn't good enough ID to withdraw my own money from a Casino.

 

[jas2587]

I have never had to send copys of a CC as I deposit via Quicktender or Ewallet they ask an I just put
N/A on those lines an state deposit was made via Quick or Ewallet an all is fine

Cindy

 

[funky_seagull]

I wouldn't bother sending the credit card information. If you deposited via moneybookers, your card details are none of their business. I definately agree these ID checks are ridiculous. They seem to serve no other purpose than to piss the player off and to slow down a withdrawal. If they really cared about security they would do these checks at the time of deposit. I bet if they did they would invent a much more faster friendlier way of doing it. I have stopped joining new casinos because of ID checks, they're just too stressful and impossible for me to complete without spending 76 to renew my passport. Which I won't do because I'll never use it for travel again, and the amount of money I win at casinos doesn't make it worthwhile. As I lose more than I win. What is frustrating about this is the lack of options available for those who have neither a driving license or passport, to confirm they are who they are. And the lack of sympathy or help from those in customer support towards those in this position. Just the robotic response: 'I am sorry we can't release your payment until we have seen a valid copy of a passport or driving license.' It sucks.

 

[Antonia1953]

I didn't realize that not all the RTGs didn't request the same documents, but I haven't played at that many. The few that I have had the same requirements. I've never understood why a passport isn't given the same regard as a drivers license. I recently had one of the casinos in the FL group ask for copies of two of my bank statements. I was absolutely livid that they had so little consideration of my personal security, especially in light of the fact that I have been playing there for years. I refused to send the statements and told them to take my money and run. They sent the withdrawal a couple of weeks later, but they won't be getting anymore funds from me or mine. I'm still pissed-off about it.

 

[catrina m]

Before I ever deposited at Cherry Red I filled out the faxback and had it approved. I didn't enter any credit card info on the faxback saying I had use my wallet.

When I deposited and won, one PM to Louise had it in my QT account very quick!

I refuse to sign up for any new casino's because of the document hassle.

I am approved by Inet, Cherry Red, Villento, First Web, and 3Dice requires no docs at all.

If I make these rounds I am either happy or broke. new offers do not stand a chance with me. I laugh at most of the spam.

 

[Rusty]

Yes some Casinos are much more customer friendly than others and the lack of consistency just reinforces the view that such over the top requests are not necessary.
All though documents were required at Cherry Red they were very fast to process and only required reasonable ID.
The same with Buzzluck and these Casinos are newer than the RTG I am referring to so perhaps these older RTG's need to evolve or die.

Certainly the likes of Cherry Red, Buzzluck, 3Dice,32 Red all raise the bar in terms of service and Three of those are fairly new arrivals.

 

[ksech]

Ah, I had to send those docs to Cherry red, not sure if it is because I use a CC and QT to fund my account. I blacken out all the numbers on my DL, the CC (front and back) and any pertinent info on my utility bill. (Although utility bills will be harder to verify as I went paperless on everything last year.) I've never encountered any problems doing this so far.

 

[spearmaster]

The reason for the utility bill is to verify address. Passports obviously don't have your address on them.

I do agree, however, that if you didn't use a CC, you should not be required to provide that documentation.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The reason for the utility bill is to verify address. Passports obviously don't have your address on them.

I do agree, however, that if you didn't use a CC, you should not be required to provide that documentation.

None of this addresses the problems faced by players such as funky_seagull. The industry is ignoring such players, but not telling them they will never be able to satisfy ID requirements without a great deal of expense and hassle till after they have played for a while and withdrawn.

In funky_seagull's case, the amounts are so trivial that 76 for a passport is more than the value of his withdrawals are likely to be, so the casino is really in a win-win situation with such players.

ID checks that players are simply unable to comply with are going to get this entire industry a bad name, as in some cases they are not proportionate to the risk. The result will be that some players will resort to other means for "revenge" when they are confronted with an unexpected no-win situation such as faced by funky_seagull. This could involve airing the grievance publicly, but also players who decide to give up online gambling altogether because they feel the entire industry is "rogue" will try routes such as the chargeback, and will feel no guilt about it because they will feel the same has been done to them. It is the same as buying goods remotely, only to find they are faulty, but the retailer makes the returns procedure impossible to comply with in the hope perhaps that you will not bother. Faced with this, consumers are actually advised to claim redress through their credit card or VISA debit card provider.

Another problem that will soon bedevil players is the increasing tendency for utilities to "fine" customers who insist on continuing with paper bills. This trend could result in players having all their bills and payments handled solely online, something that is being pushed heavily for "environmental reasons" (so they claim) I am already paying these "fines" because I need regular statements to scan and keep on my PC.
Whilst casinos say they do not accept copies of online bills, they cannot tell the difference in many cases, since most statements posted out are produced by computer anyway, and are identical to what we could print off from managing our bills online.

 

[spearmaster]

None of this addresses the problems faced by players such as funky_seagull. The industry is ignoring such players, but not telling them they will never be able to satisfy ID requirements without a great deal of expense and hassle till after they have played for a while and withdrawn.

In funky_seagull's case, the amounts are so trivial that 76 for a passport is more than the value of his withdrawals are likely to be, so the casino is really in a win-win situation with such players.

ID checks that players are simply unable to comply with are going to get this entire industry a bad name, as in some cases they are not proportionate to the risk.

funky_seagull is not simply unable to comply, as you intimate. He does not wish to comply for such a small withdrawal.

Now - let's not argue the point of the passport - some people do have them and can use them. Not everyone has passports and the casino is not saying that a passport is the only acceptable id.

Driver's license - well, needless to say not everyone has one either.

I suspect that the casino can accept some other form of photo ID, but obviously believes that most people have either passport or driver's license. Certainly in the US, people are normally required to have at least a state ID if they don't have a driver's license - once they reach a certain age, that is.

I don't know UK identification requirements - but I do find it strange that funky_seagull has no form of acceptable ID - surely, the government must require people to have SOME form of acceptable ID... and obviously if a government recognizes a particular form of ID, so should a casino.

Now, as to requiring ID before play - not all casinos do this - certainly not in the US - you are not required to show ID before play, and quite often you will never have to show ID except when challenged, or when winning over $1200 on a single spin or game (for tax purposes).

I used to believe that ID should be checked before allowing play to proceed - but I now realize how much of a problem that causes - firstly, that is likely to more than double the workload for the casino - and secondly, it is more likely to frustrate someone enough to cause them not to bother.

This might seem trivial - until you realize that the additional workload alone could slow a casino to a crawl, meaning your withdrawals are processed more slowly, support is often overloaded... because they are checking the IDs of people who may never even make a deposit or a withdrawal.

So if your withdrawal or your support request is slower, you too might get frustrated... and not come back.

It's a chicken and egg situation. Or somewhere between a rock and a hard place - but at least you can see why checking identity before play is such a difficult proposition.

 

[vinylweatherman]

funky_seagull is not simply unable to comply, as you intimate. He does not wish to comply for such a small withdrawal.

Now - let's not argue the point of the passport - some people do have them and can use them. Not everyone has passports and the casino is not saying that a passport is the only acceptable id.

Driver's license - well, needless to say not everyone has one either.

I suspect that the casino can accept some other form of photo ID, but obviously believes that most people have either passport or driver's license. Certainly in the US, people are normally required to have at least a state ID if they don't have a driver's license - once they reach a certain age, that is.

I don't know UK identification requirements - but I do find it strange that funky_seagull has no form of acceptable ID - surely, the government must require people to have SOME form of acceptable ID... and obviously if a government recognises a particular form of ID, so should a casino.Now, as to requiring ID before play - not all casinos do this - certainly not in the US - you are not required to show ID before play, and quite often you will never have to show ID except when challenged, or when winning over $1200 on a single spin or game (for tax purposes).

I used to believe that ID should be checked before allowing play to proceed - but I now realise how much of a problem that causes - firstly, that is likely to more than double the workload for the casino - and secondly, it is more likely to frustrate someone enough to cause them not to bother.

This might seem trivial - until you realise that the additional workload alone could slow a casino to a crawl, meaning your withdrawals are processed more slowly, support is often overloaded... because they are checking the IDs of people who may never even make a deposit or a withdrawal.

So if your withdrawal or your support request is slower, you too might get frustrated... and not come back.

It's a chicken and egg situation. Or somewhere between a rock and a hard place - but at least you can see why checking identity before play is such a difficult proposition.

NO NO NO and again NO!!!!!!

The UK government ONLY issue a PHOTO on either a PASSPORT or a DRIVERS LICENCE. Funky_seagull is not "unwilling" to obtain a driver's license, he is NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED ONE due to disability. Whilst he CAN obtain a passport, this is NOT a simple matter, he is disabled, and lives in a remote area, and you must now apply IN PERSON at one of only a few regional passport offices for the new style biometric passports being issued.

The UK government DO issue quite a few other forms of ID, but they DO NOT HAVE PHOTOS.

Other forms of PHOTO ID, such as I have suggested might be issued at a more local level, such a bus passes, railcards, etc are UNLIKELY TO BE ACCEPTED anyway.

The UK government are currently happy with this situation, even though other countries may not be, however, IF a UK citizen is in another country, they will have a passport anyway, so problem solved.

The current government are more worried about losing VOTES than they are about INTERNAL security, as those without a passport or drivers license have no other form of photo ID, and are not required to even have one.

Since this state of affairs is likely to last several years, the online casino industry MUST address this problem, rather than ignore it at their peril. Casinos licensed within the EU or UK will find themselves in trouble for making impractical ID document requests where the player can show that what they have is fine for GOVERNMENT purposes, but the casino holding their cash says it is not for theirs.

I PERSONALLY, would fork out for a passport, but this is because MY cash-ins warrant the expenditure, even if I was never intending to travel abroad again. It would only become necessary if my drivers license was taken away, something that the elderly have to face, as well as the medically unfit.

Making a false declaration of fitness to drive just to obtain an "ID document" to please casinos is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE, and carries quite a steep fine.

I am sure if funky_seagull had a big win, it would be worth his while getting a new passport for 76 + travel + 1 wasted day.

 

[winbig]

9 times out of 10, if you don't deposit using a CC, you need not to send in a copy of any CC to them. If they still ask for it, tell them to shove it and PAB.

 

[spearmaster]

NO NO NO and again NO!!!!!!

No need for the shouting, mate.

The UK government ONLY issue a PHOTO on either a PASSPORT or a DRIVERS LICENCE. Funky_seagull is not "unwilling" to obtain a driver's license, he is NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED ONE due to disability. Whilst he CAN obtain a passport, this is NOT a simple matter, he is disabled, and lives in a remote area, and you must now apply IN PERSON at one of only a few regional passport offices for the new style biometric passports being issued.

I stand by my opinion. There *must* be some ID that the government recognize. I said nothing about simple or anything of the sort - I said that he does not wish to comply, which is entirely correct. And it's his choice, and frankly if I were in his situation I'd probably do the same thing.

Your statement of being "unable to comply" is incorrect.

Other forms of PHOTO ID, such as I have suggested might be issued at a more local level, such a bus passes, railcards, etc are UNLIKELY TO BE ACCEPTED anyway.

I don't see where this has been established by either funky_seagull or the casino in his particular case - here you are again making assumptions without basis in fact.

And although I would normally assume a photo ID, again this has yet to be established and was not stated by either party.

If he has any government-issued ID which can be used for *all* general intents and purposes within the UK, that should be acceptable enough. If he wants to explain his situation to the casino, he can do so, or he can PAB if he likes.

But you cannot assume that he is unable to comply - regardless of whether the ID is required before play, or upon cashout - either way he knows he is still likely to have to produce ID - otherwise it should be incumbent on him to speak with the casino in the first place. The requirement for proof of identity is a given, it is not optional - what IS optional is when the ID is required to be produced.

Casinos licensed within the EU or UK will find themselves in trouble for making impractical ID document requests where the player can show that what they have is fine for GOVERNMENT purposes, but the casino holding their cash says it is not for theirs.

This is just repeating what I said before. If it is good enough for government purposes, it should be good enough for a casino. If the casino is not willing to recognize a legal identity document, then it belongs in the rogue list.

 

[KasinoKing]

I don't know about you lot but it really winds me up:axeman2:

I agree with you - it's just total bulls-droppings.
If a player deposits by Neteller, MoneyBookers or any other e-wallet and withdraws to the same account, what the flip does it matter???
You have to be at least 18 to open one of those accounts, so the age shouldn't be an issue.

You don't have to prove who you are in a B&M casino, so why all this horse-manure online?

KK

 

[spearmaster]

You don't have to prove who you are in a B&M casino, so why all this horse-manure online?

This surely is wrong - every London B&M casino I've been to requires you to be a member or else prove identity and age... and I've been to a fair few of them... this may not be the case in the US, but it sure is in most places in Europe...

 

[funky_seagull]

The casino I had a recent problem with I joined them about a year ago. This is the first time they have asked for ID after about 8 withdrawals. Thankfully I managed to get my money in the end. I used my birth certificate. But it took many emails and some phonecalls to sort it out. bizarrely a birth certificate is still not good enough as it doesn't have a photo on it. But they processed my withdrawal, with the message I still need to produce a valid photo ID. So i think I will just take my money and scram. The only way I can get a valid photo ID is by renewing my passport. I dont drive due to being disabled. There are no other valid forms of photo ID available to me. I know the rest of the world outside the UK seems to find it unbelievable but people in the UK do not carry national identity cards. Some casinos I have joined have done their ID checks behind the scenes without me having to send in any documentation. I think they must have checked on the electoral register or something like that. Cause when I contacted them asking if I needed to send in any documentation they said there was no need as they had already verified who I am. So it shows there must be other more player friendly ways to check. These casinos were all UK ones though licensed in Gibraltar. Other casinos I am a member of have asked for ID but were a lot more chilled out and reasonable about the whole thing and either accepted my expired passport, my birth certificate, or even my bank statement as proof of ID. Which to me shows there are some casinos going over the top about this or are just plain ignorant. I hate the way some casinos make you feel like a naughty child for not having a photo ID. It's like being at school, who the duck do some of these places think they are. I won't be joining any more casinos. This ID crap is a nightmare. As well as the photo ID problem the whole thing is a pain in the arse anyway. Trying to photograph a utility bill so everything is clear and visible is frustrating, one time trying to get this photo right took me an hour. Not everyone has a scanner. Uploading them to the computer, having to chase up support to see if they have been approved, that they were clear enough, it is really player unfriendly, annoying and tiring.

 

[spearmaster]

I joined the casino about a year ago. This is the first time they have asked for ID after about 8 withdrawals. I managed to get my money in the end. Using my birth certificate. But even this was still not good enough as it doesn't have a photo on it. They processed my withdrawal, but said I still need to produce a valid photo ID. The only way I can get a valid photo ID is by renewing my passport. There are no other valid forms of photo ID available. I know the rest of the world seems to find it unbelievable but people in the UK do not carry national identity cards. Anyway I got my money after many emails and phonecalls and won't be going back there. Some casinos I have joined have done their ID checks behind the scenes without me having to send in any documentation. I think they must have checked on the electoral register or something like that. Cause when I contacted them asking if I needed to send in any documentation they said there was no need as they had already verified who I am. So it shows there must be other more player friendly ways to check. These casinos were all UK ones though licensed in Gibraltar. Other casinos I am a member of have asked for ID but were a lot more chilled out and reasonable about the whole thing and either accepted my expired passport, birth certificate, or even my bank statement as proof of ID. Which shows some casinos are going over the top about this. I won't be joining any new casinos anymore to avoid this ID nightmare. As well as the passport problem the whole thing is a pain in the arse anyway. Trying to photograph a utility bill so everything is clear and visible is frustrating. Uploading them to the computer having to chase up support to see if they have been approved it is really player unfriendly and annoying. The one I had a recent problem with I have been with them over a year and they have processed about 8 withdrawals, with no problems whatsoever and never asked for ID, so perhaps I haven't heard the last of this demon. They seem to have changed their payment processor maybe that has something to do with it.

LOL... I don't think a birth certificate is an acceptable form of ID either But your expired passport really should be acceptable as it was government issued (obviously), in tandem with some of the other stuff like a utility bill.

As for national identity cards - quite frankly the US doesn't issue national identity cards either - only state ID, state driver's license, or passport.

Obviously your situation is special and falls outside the norm - if the casino is a good casino I would suggest you explain to them what the problem is - and if you've done that, then you perhaps need to get to higher management. Or send it along to one of us (Maxd is probably best) and we'll see if we can do anything about that.

Casinos must certainly strive to make the customer experience easy, friendly, and welcoming - there can be no argument there. But one also needs to understand that there are certain things that a casino has to do, particularly if they are UK-licensed or whitelisted. There will always be some cracks or uncovered issues, and unfortunately yours is one of them - so making an effort to try and help them fix these things will be appreciated by not only them, but those who fall into a similar situation.

By the way, I should also point out that an expired passport is a LEGAL and valid form of ID in the US - easily discovered by the simple fact that presentation of the expired passport, along with the required forms and fees, is all that is required to obtain a new passport. The only difference between your expired passport and your new passport is that the expiration date only invalidates the passport for travel purposes.

 

[Pinababy69]

I also don't have a passport, never have had one...and don't plan on getting one at $150 a pop. Why should I when I have no intention of travelling outside of my own country? I also don't drive, thus no driver's licence. So, for ID purposes, that leaves me with my birth certificate, my SIN card (similar to Social Security ID in the States), and my Ontario Health Card (non photo).

Like others in this thread, I will never try new casinos because I am not going to run the risk of being told I can't cashout after I win. But they can always take your money/deposits, be it via CC or whatever. I could be Osama Bin Laden, and they'd gladly be taking my money and taking it.....it's only when I want some back that they decide they have to verify my identity? Bullshit.

Inetbet was satisfied with my ID and a utility bill.....32Red and 3Dice, I've never had to provide a thing. Why is that? That some can manage to pay people, no questions asked? I already know the answer.

Honestly, my advice to anyone before they try a new casino is to get pre-approved for cashouts, and get it in writing, before you ever make a deposit. And if your ID isn't good enough for these guys....screw em.

BTW Spear, there is no national ID card here in Canada either. Only picture ID nationally recognized is passport or driver's licence. Maybe I should learn how to drive after 46 years....just so I can cashout from an online casino?

 

[Rusty]

Pinababy has hit the nail on the head, why can some casinos pay without ID, some with basic ID and others make you want to jump through hoops?

That is the question that needs to be asked and as I stated in an earlier post there can only be One answer.

Spearmaster makes some valid points but lets be honest, there is absolutely no need for this level of ID check, it is BS.

Again as I asked earlier if anyone (including the Casino) can give me valid reasons for why they need so much verification when other Casinos do not then I may reconsider my view, until then...BS!

 

[vinylweatherman]

No need for the shouting, mate.



I stand by my opinion. There *must* be some ID that the government recognize. I said nothing about simple or anything of the sort - I said that he does not wish to comply, which is entirely correct. And it's his choice, and frankly if I were in his situation I'd probably do the same thing.

Your statement of being "unable to comply" is incorrect.



I don't see where this has been established by either funky_seagull or the casino in his particular case - here you are again making assumptions without basis in fact.

And although I would normally assume a photo ID, again this has yet to be established and was not stated by either party.

If he has any government-issued ID which can be used for *all* general intents and purposes within the UK, that should be acceptable enough. If he wants to explain his situation to the casino, he can do so, or he can PAB if he likes.

But you cannot assume that he is unable to comply - regardless of whether the ID is required before play, or upon cashout - either way he knows he is still likely to have to produce ID - otherwise it should be incumbent on him to speak with the casino in the first place. The requirement for proof of identity is a given, it is not optional - what IS optional is when the ID is required to be produced.



This is just repeating what I said before. If it is good enough for government purposes, it should be good enough for a casino. If the casino is not willing to recognize a legal identity document, then it belongs in the rogue list.

Sorry you got it, but you are the umpteenth person to ASSUME that the UK government must issue some form of PHOTO document to prove ID without it having to be a document with another primary purpose.

It DOES seem funky_seagull got his money, but the casino is STILL insisting he provide a non-expired passport if he is to play again.

Canadians appear to be in the same boat, no national ID card, just passports and drivers licenses.

The UK govermnent has in the past cited COST as a reason for a luke warm response to past calls for national photo ID, and it has been concerns over security since 9/11 that has reopened the debate. It costs far more to produce and issue a photo bearing document than one without one.

Birth certificates alone are not generally accepted, but when presented along with 2 other forms of NON photo ID, the trio are an accepted form of non photo ID here in the UK. Various government departments issue a "B list" of acceptable ways for a person to prove ID if they have neither passport or drivers license. These are accepted, BUT behind the scenes are also verified against the electoral roll, usually through a credit reference agency.

There is an alternative proposal for internal security, without the need for a photo ID card. This is a central database, including the DNA of EVERY person, not just arrested suspects, which will tie in a great deal of personal information, and a person can be completely ID checked from a fingerprint or iris scan, and is supposedly "impossible" to beat. It is highly controversial, and is unlikely to come into being because trust in the govermnent's ability to securely handle sensitive data is at an all time low, and any party putting such a proposal in it's manifesto is unlikely to end up being in any position to implement it after an election.

This does rather leave online transactions out in the cold, but a USB fingerprint scanner is now widely available as an alternative to password protection on PCs, and it's use could be extended to authorising online activity by ensuring the person registered is actually the one at the keyboard.


funky_seagull also makes an interesting point that casinos licensed in the UK or whitelisted territories have found an alternative way to verify players, and this alternative is good enough for EU and UK rules regarding verifying parties to a financial transaction, so this method should be MORE than good enough for casinos licensed in more lax jurisdictions, and would be more ACCURATE (no chance to manipulate information, since it is not being provided by the player), as well as being more player friendly.

This thread has demonstrated the damage this issue has already done to the ability of casinos to attract NEW players, with both Pina and funky_seagull stating that they will not be trying any NEW casinos because they are wary of being caught in the ID trap.

Players new to online gambling itself are going to walk into this ID trap on a regular basis, and are not going to find out till the first time they encounter a document request, which is likely to be on their first cash-in. Their view of the whole industry will then be tarnished, and they might come to believe that online gambling is just another of those scams, and will quit, and warn all their contacts about the "scam". The result will be that it will become ever harder to attract players to their first ever experience of online gambling, since they will be hearing the "scam" hypothesis through the "grape vine", and will view even the most reputable brands with prejudice.

It would be interesting to conduct a survey among adults who have NEVER gambled online before, and see how they view the industry. This is the pool from which EXPANSION of the industry will come. If casinos are simply fighting over the pool of experienced players, who will have a fixed amount of gambling money, it will cost them more to achieve the same collective revenue the harder they fight with each other.
With all these new casinos opening, it seems they ARE fighting very hard indeed for players. We are supposed to be in a slump, yet there is an abundance of new casinos opening every month, who may simply be poaching from their competitors, rather than gaining players new to the industry.

 

[AussieDave]

Did you know that sending a copy of some government issued ID (especially Passports) may contravene your Country's Federal laws.

Sending a copy of a credit card whether #'s are blanked out or not may contravene the terms & conditions agreement you have with the issuing bank of the aforementioned credit card.

If you are required to send government issued ID doc it's better to send a DL & then send it in black & white. The same goes for a passport too.

Cheers
T

 

[Rusty]

Well since I deposited via Moneybookers I sent them a screeny of my MB account and the relevant transaction along with my passport ID.

They sent back saying I made a deposit using a credit card back in February so would require all documents including front and back of VISA signed credit card agreement form and a utility bill to go with what I already sent!:sniper:

They really know how to endear themselves to their customers. :notworthy

 

[vinylweatherman]

Did you know that sending a copy of some government issued ID (especially Passports) may contravene your Country's Federal laws.
Sending a copy of a credit card whether #'s are blanked out or not may contravene the terms & conditions agreement you have with the issuing bank of the aforementioned credit card.

If you are required to send government issued ID doc it's better to send a DL & then send it in black & white. The same goes for a passport too.

Cheers
T

Yes, but casinos don't give a Rat's ass, THEY have OUR money, and know that they WILL get that passport or license if they refuse to budge. Local goverment can do nothing about it since it is an offshore company making these demands, and when thousands of dollars, pounds, or euros are held to ransom, even the PLAYER wont be giving a Rat's ass about local laws.

Casinos are no taking these images of documents from nearly eery player that makes a cash-in, so the number of players the industry has is probably representative of the number of ID document images that have been transmitted via email. It is far worse though, since an individual player has to sent the documents once FOR EACH CASINO, so a single player with 40 accounts has probably sent around 40 sets of documentation via email, assuming they have played long enough on each account to encounter a cash-in.

Most governments are aware of online casinos by now, and really SHOULD know how the industry works. It would be an incredible lapse of standards for governments to be ignorant of the fact that requesting an image of either a drivers license or passport from a player is normal industry procedure, and that this procedure means that rogue casinos, as well as well regulated ones, will have regular access to image files of ID documentation.

Despite these risks, I am not aware of the UK goverment making any announcement about this, so must consider the risks involved minor at present (or of course, they could be ignorant of the practice). They may change their view the first time a major ID fraud incident is traced back to the online casino industry, and the industry might then be facing an over draconian "knee jerk" reaction from countries currently friendly to this industry, such as the UK.

 

[Rusty]

Hey I got paid and it only took 10 Days from request to my MB account.

So now I am verified and have my money I can close my account.

What a great way to ensure people never redeposit any winnings back to your Casino, outstanding.

 

[Pinababy69]

Hey I got paid and it only took 10 Days from request to my MB account.

So now I am verified and have my money I can close my account.

What a great way to ensure people never redeposit any winnings back to your Casino, outstanding.

Rusty, did you ever say which casino this was? Can I take a guess? One of the Mainstreet Group? Am I right?

Ten days to payout to a Moneybookers account is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Rusty]

Rusty, did you ever say which casino this was? Can I take a guess? One of the Mainstreet Group? Am I right?

Ten days to payout to a Moneybookers account is beyond ridiculous.

Mystic Pinababy :notworthy

 

[thelawnet]

Casino.com are doing this to me at the moment.

I cashed out on 27th April, 8:37 am.

On 29th April they sent me the following email:

Dear player,

We are processing your withdrawal request.

As part of our security procedure, we ask that you provide the following details:

1) Your valid photo identification (e.g. passport or driving license) that shows the address currently registered in your gaming account. If your ID does not show the address registered, please provide a utility bill or bank statement that does. Please be advised we will still require a copy of the photo ID.

2) Front and back copies of the credit cards you used to deposit in your account. If you no longer have one of these credit cards, a bank statement for the card in question will suffice. Please be sure that the credit card number and your name is listed on the document.

Please note if you have provided any of the above requested documents previously, and they were accepted, there is no need to resend it/them at this point. Only send documents that remain outstanding.

Once your faxes are legible, they will be placed in a secure file and you will not be asked to re-send them in the future. Additionally, having your faxes on file will facilitate other adjustments we periodically make to a player's account such as an increase in the deposit limit, upgrading the VIP level or making any changes in account details that you may request.

Please fax your documents to: +44 8702 885 232.
For the fastest reply time, however, we strongly suggest that you scan and send your documents as e-mail attachments to [email protected]. This option works best for image quality and clarity, and we usually receive legible copies on the first attempt; whereas faxes usually take a few attempts to obtain legible copies. Scanning may be done at the closest document processing depot if the necessary equipment is unavailable to you.

Please enclose your username when sending your documents to assist us in locating your account.

Your cooperation in this matter is most appreciated.

Please note, if after ten days, we do not receive legible faxes, we will return the amount of your withdrawal request back to your balance.

You may make your withdrawal request again but we must be in receipt of the required faxes before we can complete processing your withdrawal.

Should you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact the Casino.com Security Team. We are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, at:

Email: [email protected]
Fax: +44 8702 885 232

Best regards,

The Casino.com Security Team

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I sent them back, the same day, my passport and bank statement for my card, the passport proving my ID and bank statement proving that the card is mine, and also showing my address.

Two days later they replied saying:


My name is Lyn and I am contacting you on behalf of the Security department at casino.com, with regards to your account.

Thank you for sending in your documents, your ID and utility have been accepted for verification purposes

However we still require the front and back of your card ending 1412, on the front we need to view the first and last four numbers for it to be accepted, and the back of the card needs to be signed, in addition we need to view the card number, please cover the CVV number. Also a copy of a deposit declaration, this needs to be signed beside each deposit

I kindly request that you resend this at your earliest convenience

Once these document has been received and verified I can resolve all outstanding issues on your account


What's the point of that? They want the front of my card with card number blanked out, but then the back of the card has to show the card number in full??????

I sent them the following reply:

Hi, the email you sent before said I need to send only

1) Your valid photo identification (e.g. passport or driving license) that shows the address currently registered in your gaming account. If your ID does not show the address registered, please provide a utility bill or bank statement that does. Please be advised we will still require a copy of the photo ID.

2) Front and back copies of the credit cards you used to deposit in your account. If you no longer have one of these credit cards, a bank statement for the card in question will suffice. Please be sure that the credit card number and your name is listed on the document.

I sent you the card statement already, and also photo id. You haven't sent me any deposit declaration form, I have no idea what this is supposed to be.

No reply yet.

That will teach me to use a credit card, some of these places want blood before paying out.

 

[Mallorca]

And...that`s what happened to me last week at Irish Luck Casino.
Withrew $50 from a birthday bonus on april 09 and got paid through Neteller without requesting anything.
A week later, I made a deposit of $150 and played with the second deposit bonus wich was available for me at the cashier.Played for about two days,met the Wr on allowed games and withdrew $270.A few days later the casino requested my ID documents and sent me a faxback form as well. I contacted the casino on the live chat and asked why didn`t they request my Id details on my previous withdrawal...the operator said that it was because the last withdrawal was greater than the first one and that they had the right to request documents at anytime.
Ok,no problem for me I always have my Id documents updated so I sent all the requested documments and the faxback form.The operator confrmed that he had received all the documents and that the account department would contact me if there was anything else they would need...
Two days later...I received another email from the casino requesting...a picture of myself holding my ID card...
Has any of you sent a picture of yourself showing your Id card in the past??.
I never heard that before.What will be next? One of these days the casinos will request a...blood,urine or maybe a sperm sample...
Mallorca.
PS: And...yes they paid me after sending them the extra document but... from now no more promotions available for me ...

 

[Rusty]

And...that`s what happened to me last week at Irish Luck Casino.
Withrew $50 from a birthday bonus on april 09 and got paid through Neteller without requesting anything.
A week later, I made a deposit of $150 and played with the second deposit bonus wich was available for me at the cashier.Played for about two days,met the Wr on allowed games and withdrew $270.A few days later the casino requested my ID documents and sent me a faxback form as well. I contacted the casino on the live chat and asked why didn`t they request my Id details on my previous withdrawal...the operator said that it was because the last withdrawal was greater than the first one and that they had the right to request documents at anytime.
Ok,no problem for me I always have my Id documents updated so I sent all the requested documments and the faxback form.The operator confrmed that he had received all the documents and that the account department would contact me if there was anything else they would need...
Two days later...I received another email from the casino requesting...a picture of myself holding my ID card...
Has any of you sent a picture of yourself showing your Id card in the past??.
I never heard that before.What will be next? One of these days the casinos will request a...blood,urine or maybe a sperm sample...
Mallorca.
PS: And...yes they paid me after sending them the extra document but... from now no more promotions available for me ...

The next step is obviously a picture of yourself showing a picture of yourself holding up your picture on an ID card.
and then a picture of yourself showing a picture of...oh you get the idea.

A crock of shit to be sure.
All I can say to anyone who gets put through this nonsense is Once you receive your cashout send an email to said Casino graciously thanking them for sending you what is rightfully yours after all this time.
As a reward for their efforts tell them to close your account and to remove all information they have received from you from their database in line with the UK data protection act.

Here are the Eight basic principles that must be complied with under the data protection act;

* Fairly and lawfully processed
* Processed for limited purposes
* Adequate, relevant and not excessive
* Accurate and up to date
* Not kept for longer than is necessary
* Processed in line with your rights
* Secure
* Not transferred to other countries without adequate protection

If the Casino/company does not have offices in the UK you can still quote principles, they might have some form of representation in the UK.
The objective though is to make it clear their procedures are unacceptable and have resulted in the loss of your custom and some bad press.

 

[vinylweatherman]

And...that`s what happened to me last week at Irish Luck Casino.
Withrew $50 from a birthday bonus on april 09 and got paid through Neteller without requesting anything.
A week later, I made a deposit of $150 and played with the second deposit bonus wich was available for me at the cashier.Played for about two days,met the Wr on allowed games and withdrew $270.A few days later the casino requested my ID documents and sent me a faxback form as well. I contacted the casino on the live chat and asked why didn`t they request my Id details on my previous withdrawal...the operator said that it was because the last withdrawal was greater than the first one and that they had the right to request documents at anytime.
Ok,no problem for me I always have my Id documents updated so I sent all the requested documments and the faxback form.The operator confrmed that he had received all the documents and that the account department would contact me if there was anything else they would need...
Two days later...I received another email from the casino requesting...a picture of myself holding my ID card...
Has any of you sent a picture of yourself showing your Id card in the past??.
I never heard that before.What will be next? One of these days the casinos will request a...blood,urine or maybe a sperm sample...
Mallorca.
PS: And...yes they paid me after sending them the extra document but... from now no more promotions available for me ...

Why?

You complied, even though the request was a bit ridiculous, and so they PUNISH you for this.

SOME members of this industry seem keen to destroy their businesses through bullcrap like this, inept service standards, and more or less lying to customers (even if through ineptness, rather than intent).

What this will do is deter players from trying new casinos, as why risk having all this hassle if the places currently played at are providing a level of service that will suffice.

I have barely tried ANY new casino recently, and have not tried ANY WHATSOEVER from the newer softwares that are fighting for our money. The increase in "bullcrap" in it's various forms has been a big factor in keeping me in familiar territory, and even here things are by no means smoothly running.

 

[Mallorca]

Hi Vinyl...
Yes, this was a bit too much but the only way I could get my money was sending this stupid photo of myself holding my Id.It was ridiculous and as well I felt like an idiot holding my own Id.I looked like a clown.
I am one of those players who like to try different casinos but it seems that the casinos are making it difficult for the players to cashout but when we lose nothing is requested by the casinos and everything`s...fine.The problem is to win...

 

[tommouk]

I've used 2 MG casinos of late and they have wanted ID (driving license) and a utility bill and for these to be certified. I asked where this could be done easily and was told doctor, dentist or police station. Got the first one done at the dentist (as it was most convenient) but this was rejected. Got another done at the police station (with some funny looks) and it took them ages to verify the autheniticity of the documents... but finally

 

[vinylweatherman]

I've used 2 MG casinos of late and they have wanted ID (driving license) and a utility bill and for these to be certified. I asked where this could be done easily and was told doctor, dentist or police station. Got the first one done at the dentist (as it was most convenient) but this was rejected. Got another done at the police station (with some funny looks) and it took them ages to verify the autheniticity of the documents... but finally

...and you were also fed a crock of bullshit. The CORRECT answer is "at a swearer of oaths, or solicitors".

Dentists may "certify" a photo, but this is for internal things such as driving license or passport applications. It is NOT considered "official", since they will do no checking, just certify the photo looks like you, and they have known you for 2 years or more.

The Police MAY certify a document, and will do more checks, but many forces will refuse, since it is NOT their function, and they are always telling us how busy they are.

The people most likely to qualify for the police to "certify" their document (as they have to have known them for 2 years) are persistent offenders, who get arrested so often that some officers know them by name, and perhaps even socially.

A "swearer of oaths", roughly equivalent to a public notary, will certify documents for a fee, which can be as little as 5, but a solicitor will charge more, based on their hourly rates.
There is probably a website that will let you do a search for local "notaries", who may well be attached to firms of solicitors.

 

[tommouk]

Ok, wish I'd been told that before... Now I've submitted documents certified incorrectly (or in a way that can't readily be verified) and because of this my withdrawals have gone west. Is it my fault or the casino for telling me where to get this done? Is there any way back from this and reclaiming my lost withdrawals?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Ok, wish I'd been told that before... Now I've submitted documents certified incorrectly (or in a way that can't readily be verified) and because of this my withdrawals have gone west. Is it my fault or the casino for telling me where to get this done? Is there any way back from this and reclaiming my lost withdrawals?

Yes, PAB, and don't say any more about the specifics of the case.

It IS down to bad advice from the casino. They clearly wanted a VERIFIABLE certification, not just a signature - which is what you get from the likes of Dentist, Doctor, Police etc. With these, their profession and signature is enough, and is usually accepted at face value because of this. Where a check is to be made by contacting the person who certified a document, it is best to get someone who'se job it is to certify documents, and to a higher degree of authority. They should be easily contactable, or at least have secretaries who could verify the certification, or take a message.

My Mum had to have some documents certified, not for casinos, but for other legal matters. She found a "swearer of oaths" attached to a firm of solicitors, who did it for 5 per document. They can also provide "certified copies" of original documents, so that they can be sent by post, and carry the authority of the originals, but without the risk of originals being lost in the post.

 

[jerrylee]

Rusty, did you ever say which casino this was? Can I take a guess? One of the Mainstreet Group? Am I right?

Ten days to payout to a Moneybookers account is beyond ridiculous.

10 days payout to MoneyBookers surely included the document verification period. I can't imagine a casino taking 10 days from the withdrawal request (assuming the account is in good standing and not suspended) to process to a MoneyBookers account, unless it's rogue.

 

[jerrylee]

Well since I deposited via Moneybookers I sent them a screeny of my MB account and the relevant transaction along with my passport ID.

They sent back saying I made a deposit using a credit card back in February so would require all documents including front and back of VISA signed credit card agreement form and a utility bill to go with what I already sent!:sniper:

They really know how to endear themselves to their customers. :notworthy

Sounds like par for the course. What I don't understand is why players make such a big deal about sending documents proving they are the owners of all their payment methods listed on their accounts. It's probably mentioned in the casino's terms of agreement which players are required to read once they install the software, create an account etc. Rusty, you've been around the block already so what's the big surprise?

 

[Pinababy69]

10 days payout to MoneyBookers surely included the document verification period. I can't imagine a casino taking 10 days from the withdrawal request (assuming the account is in good standing and not suspended) to process to a MoneyBookers account, unless it's rogue.

Actually JerryLee, with the Mainstreet Group, it's common practice. I think in Rusty's case it probably did involve the document verification period....but Mainstreet can take anywhere up to 14 days to pay people, even once they're verified. I've asked them on live chat about this, and it's not like they lie to you. They tell you upfront that's how long their payouts can take..it's standard for them. Not saying there haven't been some people who have been paid a bit quicker....but there are many more who wait for extended periods to get paid. That's how I knew it was Mainstreet Rusty was talking about, even though he never mentioned the casino.

So why would anyone want to play at a place that takes up to two weeks to pay you....when Inetbet can do it in under 24 hours? ClubWorld under 24 hours as long as it doesn't fall over a weekend? And the Rushmore group I think is fairly quick as well....although that seems to depend alot on whether or not Louise is around. Never played there myself, just basing that on what I've read on the forum.

 

[Rusty]

Yes that included document processing time, so that makes it ok?

What was the surprise?

The fact that Ive played at a Million and One other Casinos and never had such excessive document requests.

If it was par for the course I would of stopped playing online a long time ago.

Jerrylee I don't know how you can try to defend it and turn it around as if I am in some way to blame.
It is unacceptable, account closed, end of.

 

[jerrylee]

So why would anyone want to play at a place that takes up to two weeks to pay you....when Inetbet can do it in under 24 hours? ClubWorld under 24 hours as long as it doesn't fall over a weekend? .

I see your point why would you want to play somewhere where a casino takes 2 weeks, but in this instance it included the document verification period and that's what I meant. It's easy to put the blame on a casino for "slow" pay out but it's unfair IMO to neglect to mention this included the documentation period which is the player's responsibility to comply with in a timely manner, if they want their funds. Even if the requests seem "over the top" or "ridiculous" it's not like the casino will change their requirements just because you complain.
Just send the required stuff, get them approved and voila you're done.

Also what does it say for Rusty's integrity to open accounts at many casinos, cash out and then close the account? Seems to be a pattern of abusing bonuses... perhaps casino groups are onto him and that's why documents are requested of him so often...

 

[Rusty]

I see your point why would you want to play somewhere where a casino takes 2 weeks, but in this instance it included the document verification period and that's what I meant. It's easy to put the blame on a casino for "slow" pay out but it's unfair IMO to neglect to mention this included the documentation period which is the player's responsibility to comply with in a timely manner, if they want their funds. Even if the requests seem "over the top" or "ridiculous" it's not like the casino will change their requirements just because you complain.
Just send the required stuff, get them approved and voila you're done.

Also what does it say for Rusty's integrity to open accounts at many casinos, cash out and then close the account? Seems to be a pattern of abusing bonuses... perhaps casino groups are onto him and that's why documents are requested of him so often...

That is One of the most silly and ignorant posts I have ever read.

First of all you will see the Title and main thrust of thread is about excessive ID requests not withdrawal times.

Secondly however many accounts I open or close says nothing about my integrity.It is irrelevant.

Thirdly I took no bonus.
Bonuses really are not the reason for me to play or not at any Casino.
In fact I am constantly bombarded with excellent bonus offers I never take.

Fourthly this was not a new account.
If you had taken the trouble to read any of the relevant information on this in this thread you would know that One of my objections was that a CC authorisation form had to be filled out even though I deposited via MB apparently because I had made a deposit back in February by credit card.

Pattern of abusing bonuses?
I can't even respond to that.

Casinos are onto me?
I don't know what you have been smoking Jerry but smoke less of it and try to make it less obvious you have a personal agenda.

 

[Pinababy69]

I already questioned Jerrylee in another thread earlier this morning re: his posts on this forum that continually make assumptions about players ie. fraudulent, bonus abusers, etc. and defend all casinos, no matter who they are. He has alluded in the past to working within the industry. If he works for a casino, I would like to know which one, and also why he isn't listed as a casino rep on this forum. It doesn't seem to matter who the poster is, or what the problem is...his mind is made up that all players are evil.

I don't use the neg rep function very often...but have some on me Jerry. You are every bit as bad as the type of poster who slams each and every casino that is mentioned, without knowing all the facts.

 

[spearmaster]

(antennae raised...)

 

[Pinababy69]

Sorry to derail your thread Rusty....but some food for thought for Spear. Just a few choice quotes by Jerry. I've bolded the most relevant parts. Players from the UK (and Turkey) are the most evil, I lost count of how many times Jerry uses the word fraudster in posts before all the info is even in....and he's definitely hung up on "bonus abuse". I'd like to hear his definition of bonus abuse. I suspect he is referring to advantage players....yet he prefers to label them bonus abusers, fraudsters and cheaters.

So Jerry, what industry experience do you have? And who do you/did you work for?

bwin, when you slammed ggray89 earlier I gave a thanks because I was thinking, finally a casino rep who tells it like it is and calls out a potential fraudster (bonus abuser I bet). I'm kind of disappointed you went soft on the player under public pressure
Oh well...

so are you saying if a casino accepts UK players, then it has no relevance that the player comes from the UK (if that were the case), despite the UK (and Turkey) being well known in the industry to harbor fraud? I'm telling you guys, there's something fishy with the OP's situation. It would be a shame if the casino were pushed into a corner and blackmailed with this thread into paying out to a fraudster just to save their reputation. It's happened before..

HA!
You see people, that's exactly what I predicted, based on my intuition from the OP's post (and having industry experience). I don't even work for FL, but I am glad Wim posted here. Thumbs up to a casino who exposes new CM members for the fraudsters they are.

My guess is because you're in the UK known for its bonus abusers + fraudsters, you got their "special" offer

10:1 odds this guy's a fraudster with a hidden agenda. Especially since not updating this thread after the casino rep stepped in.

I am very happy to read this. You got burned cbe2869 and every bonus abuser's frivilous PAB should be rejected immediately.

That figures you're in the US so can you be anything but bitter? Already making judgements about future posts,,,hmm real objective there.

I don't call locking accounts for bonus abuse rogue behavior. Many legit groups do that to expose cheaters for who they really are.

Point taken, but that's incorrect about aka. He promised to send me pics of his dog, yet didn't come through. That saddened me greatly.

In fact I still cry each day I don't see precious Ice Cream (his dog).

Winbig and I have a checkered past, while Rusty couldn't see the forest for the trees and was also deemed a bonus abuser.

Even when exposed by PMs, he still denied responsibility, then hid behind his guilt by requesting the thread die...only after he was "hounded", in his words by posters here interested in the truth, rather than his fabrications.

Always players ganging up against casinos are not coincidentally the same ones who proclaim themselves as bonus whores. And when they don't admit it, they know deep down they are.

So what's a casino to do? Let them break terms and abuse the system, just because automatically the casino's the big bad wolf?

P.S. I'd like to add that it would be a honor to send a job application to Fortune, I'm sure they would enjoy a vigilant CM poster on their side-one who cuts through all the manure shovelled by posters like cbe2869.

 

[RobWin]

Virtual Danny in drag maybe ??

 

[Rusty]

Holy crap!
Thanks Pinababy,
I missed that last One or I would of been all over it, it is pure fabrication and bears no resemblance to the truth of what happened just like His last post.
How can I be exposed by PM? (Surely a contradiction there)

I have chatted to Jerrylee in PM innitiated by Him and he has a quite different persona there.
I believe he is connected to the GV group.
Maybe he is just a serial troll.

Jerrylee;
I'd like to add that it would be a honor to send a job application to Fortune, I'm sure they would enjoy a vigilanti CM poster on their side.

I took the liberty of correcting a typo from Him.

 

[spearmaster]

I'd rather have food in my stomach than food for thought... so if you don't mind sending me some smoked meat from Montreal...

Anyhow, regardless of who we're talking about, I was just putting everyone on notice to be on their best behavior. Every member still has equal rights here.

Thanks

 

[RobWin]

I'd rather have food in my stomach than food for thought... so if you don't mind sending me some smoked meat from Montreal...

Anyhow, regardless of who we're talking about, I was just putting everyone on notice to be on their best behavior. Every member still has equal rights here.

Thanks

You're right, I guess I could have left my comment there to myself