Pragmatic Play is a casino developer reviewed at Casinomeister
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Pragmatic Play, under their old name, were caught cheating players.You seem to be well versed in the industry so I will not refute you or argue especially if you can't be arsed about it.
I just have a hard time to find hard evidence in MOST of these claims especially since it often comes from frustrated addicts who try to find any way possible to confirm their bias in automatically thinking I lost all my money so this is rigged or a scam and that by itself is annoying and something I see in this forum on a daily basis.
When they changed their name, and retired some games, the money paid into the progressive jackpots disappeared.
Stake casino don't pay a lot of the time, there are numerous complaints all over about them.
The streamers who play there do ridiculous sized bets, win hundreds of thousands and their reaction is like mine if I got a 5x win on a slot. Most insist they play with their own money, but a few have stated, in public, they are funded by the casino.
Everything about that is shady.
Then you get this, which apparently was a legitimate win. It must be trillions and trillions to one to hit that exact sequence.
I think theres enough going on for people to question things being honest.
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You seem to be well versed in the industry so I will not refute you or argue especially if you can't be arsed about it
I just have a hard time to find hard evidence in MOST of these claims especially since it often comes from frustrated addicts who try to find any way possible to confirm their bias in automatically thinking I lost all my money so this is rigged or a scam and that by itself is annoying and something I see in this forum on a daily basis.
Fair enough, that's definitely true in a lot of cases, but indeed being an ex-affiliate and long time player and software-reviewer/freelance writer on the subject, and thus having a few 'insiders' in my circle, i am confident enough to be beyond skeptical
Note that i am not saying anything is proven, but over the past two/three years i've read, heard and seen enough for my taste to be turned off.
I still watch some streamers i deem legit, but that's basically down to a handful (barely) and i can confirm they hate to play Pragmatic in general
Saying that in response to above interaction between you and dunover, who hit the nail on the head re: the old topgame, and whiffs of a certain nature...
It's the whole thing really - the sum of it's parts, if you will - that seems fishy. The expression 'Look! - you can tell when he's lying...his lips move when he does it' is kind of the feeling most of these blokes incur in me, and the fact that the bulk plays on very dodgy casinos, and for some reason all have tons of dosh, and play Pragmatic Play for like 90% of the time, and also started popping up very shortly after the launch of Pragmatic's 'freeplay' site, is just all too much coincedence in my book..
That is why the provider is included in my 'dodgy combo'.
Read up on Topgame's shady history, then perhaps Sherrif Gaming and/or Betsoft..
You'll probaly see why some of us older farts are a bit more skeptical in some cases. It used to be a cowboy world, and despite all the good developements over the past 10 years or so, there's always that little voice in the back of my head...
Also, most big scandals that were found out over the years, were a direct result of players questioning integrity and fairness.
Just saying
It is is tiresome sometimes to sift through the disgruntled gambler/addict-bollocks, but i'm afraid that's part of the game..
And i salute you for being skeptical, either way
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- Canada
Fair enough, that's definitely true in a lot of cases, but indeed being an ex-affiliate and long time player and software-reviewer/freelance writer on the subject, and thus having a few 'insiders' in my circle, i am confident enough to be beyond skeptical
Note that i am not saying anything is proven, but over the past two/three years i've read, heard and seen enough for my taste to be turned off.
I still watch some streamers i deem legit, but that's basically down to a handful (barely) and i can confirm they hate to play Pragmatic in general
Saying that in response to above interaction between you and dunover, who hit the nail on the head re: the old topgame, and whiffs of a certain nature...
It's the whole thing really - the sum of it's parts, if you will - that seems fishy. The expression 'Look! - you can tell when he's lying...his lips move when he does it' is kind of the feeling most of these blokes incur in me, and the fact that the bulk plays on very dodgy casinos, and for some reason all have tons of dosh, and play Pragmatic Play for like 90% of the time, and also started popping up very shortly after the launch of Pragmatic's 'freeplay' site, is just all too much coincedence in my book..
That is why the provider is included in my 'dodgy combo'.
Read up on Topgame's shady history, then perhaps Sherrif Gaming and/or Betsoft..
You'll probaly see why some of us older farts are a bit more skeptical in some cases. It used to be a cowboy world, and despite all the good developements over the past 10 years or so, there's always that little voice in the back of my head...
Also, most big scandals that were found out over the years, were a direct result of players questioning integrity and fairness.
Just saying
It is is tiresome sometimes to sift through the disgruntled gambler/addict-bollocks, but i'm afraid that's part of the game..
And i salute you for being skeptical, either way
I love this response, it becomes much clearer why and how justifiable this skepticism is. It makes a lot of sense obviously.
In my case I had some sessions that I swear that if I had streamed it people would instantly call me fake. Especially since I was playing on Stake and hit a lot of big wins on Pragmatic Play games in a short period of time ?
As a young fart, I'm still navigating through what is legit not legit right wrong I'll get there one day
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Instruction to have a sucsesfull casino whitdrawal and lifechaning money..
1.Move in to mummys house/garage
2.create acount on stake
3.Play pragmatic
1.Move in to mummys house/garage
2.create acount on stake
3.Play pragmatic
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- UK
One thing that is odd abut this is that you'd think a scatter would drop in eventually. where are the scatters, cant only be three on these massive reel strips.
Sorry guys but everyone here who only has a little experience in coding knows that this never ever can happen ‚by accident‚ or ‚by randomness‚.
i really have to wonder that there seems to be still some ppl here who believed these stories…
its just stupid to set the Game to Maxcap for the streamer - but dont tell the Software how it should reach the cap.
i really have to wonder that there seems to be still some ppl here who believed these stories…
its just stupid to set the Game to Maxcap for the streamer - but dont tell the Software how it should reach the cap.
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So my take on this. I don't believe it was a rigged spin or 'set to maxcap' or whatever, and I do believe it was a legitimate win, however I believe it was an unintended legitimate win.
What I mean by that is, games (especially cluster games) have all sorts of weighting and logic that makes the distribution of the symbols more interesting and more likely to offer good balances of wins etc (all standard stuff). I believe what happened here is that those algorithms got into an incredibly rare situation where they put themselves in a loop of results. It's a legitimate win because it's what the game engine produced, but it's unintended because if the developer had realised such a scenario was possible within their logic, they certainly wouldn't have left it there.
This kind of stuff happens in code more often than you'd think, especially when multiple complicated systems are interacting with each other and it's simply impossible to know every single scenario that might occur.
So yeh, I would consider it a 'bug' in the code, but clearly Pragmatic considers it a legitimate win (but I bet their developers looked at it and went 'Jeeze, that's an oversight, how the hell did it get in that situation'.)
What I mean by that is, games (especially cluster games) have all sorts of weighting and logic that makes the distribution of the symbols more interesting and more likely to offer good balances of wins etc (all standard stuff). I believe what happened here is that those algorithms got into an incredibly rare situation where they put themselves in a loop of results. It's a legitimate win because it's what the game engine produced, but it's unintended because if the developer had realised such a scenario was possible within their logic, they certainly wouldn't have left it there.
This kind of stuff happens in code more often than you'd think, especially when multiple complicated systems are interacting with each other and it's simply impossible to know every single scenario that might occur.
So yeh, I would consider it a 'bug' in the code, but clearly Pragmatic considers it a legitimate win (but I bet their developers looked at it and went 'Jeeze, that's an oversight, how the hell did it get in that situation'.)
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I can agree with this, even though my techie knowhow is limited I think I understand. But it is strangely coincidental that it happens for a streamer - if this is indeed the first time the developers learn of it, what the game can do in the 'wild' as it were.
For me there is an element of 'cui bono' regarding streamers faring well on pragmatic games all of a sudden, like it's part of a promotional drive. To a newbie watching this the reaction will be different to an old hand.
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As a programmer I agree with this. I also bet the devs went like "oh shit this was not supposed to happen"
But after all maybe andym the super programmer knows better
I think we are all on the same page here that the pragmppl went like ‚oh shit this was not supposed to happen‘.
but not regarding the value outcome. Just regarding the displaymethod…
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I think you have a slight misconception about how slots work. The display method and the value outcome are intrinsically linked.
Slots don't choose a value outcome and then decide on a display method to show it, the gem matches, tumbles etc is what determines the value outcome. So the engine will randomly populate the grid with fruits (with some weighting algorithms), then see what matches, add them to the total, tumble them, randomly generate some more fruits, see what matches, add them to the total etc.
What I'm pretty sure happened here is that algorithm for determining the fruits got itself into some very rare situation where the weighting was causing it to select the same pattern of fruits each time, and so kept tumbling forever. Once the max win cap was reached, the code will have stopped the tumbles. If the max cap was 10000x, it would have carried on to that, if there was no max cap, the server would have just crashed in an infinite loop
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I think you have a slight misconception about how slots work. The display method and the value outcome are intrinsically linked.
Slots don't choose a value outcome and then decide on a display method to show it, the gem matches, tumbles etc is what determines the value outcome. So the engine will randomly populate the grid with fruits (with some weighting algorithms), then see what matches, add them to the total, tumble them, randomly generate some more fruits, see what matches, add them to the total etc.
What I'm pretty sure happened here is that algorithm for determining the fruits got itself into some very rare situation where the weighting was causing it to select the same pattern of fruits each time, and so kept tumbling forever. Once the max win cap was reached, the code will have stopped the tumbles. If the max cap was 10000x, it would have carried on to that, if there was no max cap, the server would have just crashed in an infinite loop
How does that work then?
When you have many slots that update the balance before the spin or feature has been played out.
We have been told that the value is known from the press of the button, the display is just eye candy, you seem to be contradicting this.
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It depends on the game provider, but often the whole result is generated upfront and then passed to the front end, but it is generated start to finish, not finish to start (some providers, like BTG, do request a result spin by spin).
So the engine will randomise the first fruits, record the wins, do the tumbles, record the wins, do the tumbles etc etc until there are no more wins. Then it adds up all the wins you got and that is how much you won in total. Then it passes the whole lot to the front end and the front end displays all the fruits and tumbles etc just as the engine calculated them, and then it shows the final win that those tumbles produced.
The back end doesn't just pass 'You won 1000x' and let the front end decide how to display it. The back end does everything, and the front end just shows exactly what it's told to show. Slot graphics have no intelligence.
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To add some context to the above, here is the response from the server for a winning spin on Danger! High Voltage
I've bolded some relevant parts that I'll explain here
RS=43|109|64|68|59|42| - RS probably stands for 'Reel Stops', and the numbers are the positions that the reels stopped on. The front end will use these numbers to stop the reels in the correct position so that the result is displayed.
TW=135 - TW probably stands for 'Total Win', and in this instance, it was £1.35. As you can see below, it is the sum of the 'WS' wins.
WC=2|0|0| - WC probably stands for 'Winning Combinations'. In this instance, there were 2 separate sets of winning symbols on the reels.
WS=0;125;2;3;0;-1;-1;-1;|1;10;3;2;3;-1;-1;-1;| - WS probably stands for 'Winning Symbols' or 'Winning Sets' or something similar. This shows the exact symbols on the screen that contributed a win, and how much that win was worth. Breakdown below
If this included free spins, you would see one of these responses (because it's a BTG game) for each spin in the free spins, and the TW field would keep increasing as wins are calculated and added.
I've bolded some relevant parts that I'll explain here
RS=43|109|64|68|59|42| - RS probably stands for 'Reel Stops', and the numbers are the positions that the reels stopped on. The front end will use these numbers to stop the reels in the correct position so that the result is displayed.
TW=135 - TW probably stands for 'Total Win', and in this instance, it was £1.35. As you can see below, it is the sum of the 'WS' wins.
WC=2|0|0| - WC probably stands for 'Winning Combinations'. In this instance, there were 2 separate sets of winning symbols on the reels.
WS=0;125;2;3;0;-1;-1;-1;|1;10;3;2;3;-1;-1;-1;| - WS probably stands for 'Winning Symbols' or 'Winning Sets' or something similar. This shows the exact symbols on the screen that contributed a win, and how much that win was worth. Breakdown below
- 0;125;2;3;0;-1;-1;-1;|
- 0 - The identifier of this winning set. Goes up by 1 for each additional winning set.
- 125 - The win value of this set (£1.25 in this case).
- 2 - The symbol position (0, 1, 2, 3 from top to bottom) on the displayed 1st reel that is included in the win
- 3 - The symbol position (0, 1, 2, 3 from top to bottom) on the displayed 2nd reel that is included in the win
- 0 - The symbol position (0, 1, 2, 3 from top to bottom) on the displayed 3rd reel that is included in the win
- -1 - No winning symbol on the displayed 4th reel
- -1 - No winning symbol on the displayed 5th reel
- -1 - No winning symbol on the displayed 6th reel
- 1;10;3;2;3;-1;-1;-1;|
- 1 - The identifier of this winning set. Goes up by 1 for each additional winning set.
- 10 - The win value of this set (£0.10 in this case).
- 3 - The symbol position (0, 1, 2, 3 from top to bottom) on the displayed 1st reel that is included in the win
- 2 - The symbol position (0, 1, 2, 3 from top to bottom) on the displayed 2nd reel that is included in the win
- 3 - The symbol position (0, 1, 2, 3 from top to bottom) on the displayed 3rd reel that is included in the win
- -1 - No winning symbol on the displayed 4th reel
- -1 - No winning symbol on the displayed 5th reel
- -1 - No winning symbol on the displayed 6th reel
If this included free spins, you would see one of these responses (because it's a BTG game) for each spin in the free spins, and the TW field would keep increasing as wins are calculated and added.
I think you did not understand my post.I think you have a slight misconception about how slots work. The display method and the value outcome are intrinsically linked.
Slots don't choose a value outcome and then decide on a display method to show it, the gem matches, tumbles etc is what determines the value outcome. So the engine will randomly populate the grid with fruits (with some weighting algorithms), then see what matches, add them to the total, tumble them, randomly generate some more fruits, see what matches, add them to the total etc.
What I'm pretty sure happened here is that algorithm for determining the fruits got itself into some very rare situation where the weighting was causing it to select the same pattern of fruits each time, and so kept tumbling forever. Once the max win cap was reached, the code will have stopped the tumbles. If the max cap was 10000x, it would have carried on to that, if there was no max cap, the server would have just crashed in an infinite loop
no one here says that the frontend decides on the displaymethod.
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Your post implied that the display method was separate and unrelated to the value outcome, but sorry if I missread
Dan_Pragmatic
Dormant account
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- Manila
Hi all,
So I have now personally spent some good amount of time with the game developers to understand what happened exactly and how this spectacular win is possible. So the critical thing to understand is that the Random Number Generator (RNG) generates the position of the reels with respect to each other once for each spin. This includes the visible part of the reels for which the slot pays, but also the non-visible part for which the slot doesn’t pay. When a tumble happens some of the non-visible part of the reels falls into the screen and pays if there is a win, and so on. It’s not the case that the RNG generates new reel positions for each tumble. So for the particular game round we are discussing, the reels positioning was generated in a way that reels 2 to 6 were perfectly aligned, resulting in a tumble that keeps going forever. The chance of this happening is of course very rare, but it does happen. I have included a simplified example in a picture to make it more clear. The yellow and red part is what you see as a player, the red part keeps tumbling.
Hope this clarifies.
Br,
Daniel
So I have now personally spent some good amount of time with the game developers to understand what happened exactly and how this spectacular win is possible. So the critical thing to understand is that the Random Number Generator (RNG) generates the position of the reels with respect to each other once for each spin. This includes the visible part of the reels for which the slot pays, but also the non-visible part for which the slot doesn’t pay. When a tumble happens some of the non-visible part of the reels falls into the screen and pays if there is a win, and so on. It’s not the case that the RNG generates new reel positions for each tumble. So for the particular game round we are discussing, the reels positioning was generated in a way that reels 2 to 6 were perfectly aligned, resulting in a tumble that keeps going forever. The chance of this happening is of course very rare, but it does happen. I have included a simplified example in a picture to make it more clear. The yellow and red part is what you see as a player, the red part keeps tumbling.
Hope this clarifies.
Br,
Daniel
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Thanks for the additional detail! Makes sense. So every reel is identical? That's surprising, wouldn't have guessed that
(primarily because it can cause this problem hehe)
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Yup. No conspiracy - maths can just occasionally throw up something which looks impossible, but is in fact just improbable.
And for this reason, we therefore understand why Pragmatic are lucky to have win-caps in place! Without the cap, the casino would have gone broke on this win!
And for this reason, we therefore understand why Pragmatic are lucky to have win-caps in place! Without the cap, the casino would have gone broke on this win!
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- Sweden
So if I understand this correctly, the reels strips on reel 2-5 lined up perfectly, like in the image Dan_Pragmatic attached to his post, and since the reel strips for the middle reels (2-5) are identical, winning combinations of 4 symbols in a row logically kept occurring on the four middle reels, on each row on the screen.
So if one of the reel strips would have been off by, say, 1, it would be a dead spin (with no tumble at all) on the initial spin?
See attached example image below, where I've offset reelstrip 5 by 1:
So if one of the reel strips would have been off by, say, 1, it would be a dead spin (with no tumble at all) on the initial spin?
See attached example image below, where I've offset reelstrip 5 by 1:
Last edited:
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Without a cap the win/tumble would never have stopped, so the casino would never have to pay anything.
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- May 22, 2012
Thanks, but it's crap programming - no slot done right should or could produce a perpetual spin. For obvious reasons. GameArt would have been proud of that....
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- Canada
how did you get the URL or the replay and can this replay any play done?
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- Canada
Thanks so much for this. It was the explanation I was looking for
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so what if this game had no cap?
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- south east england
Can anyone estimate the odds of this sequence, are we talking 1 in 50 million, less or more?
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That's a bit to logical for round here
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- United Kingdom
It would go on forever and the server would eventually crash.
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Pity this wasn’t a gates of hell feature as one of those symbols that you were given would have just fucked off from the reel set.
And this nonsense wouldn’t have happened.
And this nonsense wouldn’t have happened.
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Gates actually uses a separate reel set for each possible symbol choice with, of course, vastly reduced numbers of that symbol present.
But... Yes ?
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- UK
Not sure why this has annoyed people so much.
Anyone that gets this unlikely round will get paid, as they’ve confirmed it’s not a bug.
It’s a coding error, certainly; the sequence should’ve been made impossible to trigger, but it’s a legitimate result.
If anything, it just proves the games are random. Had this result come up in testing, I’m fairly certain it would’ve been coded out.
Anyone that gets this unlikely round will get paid, as they’ve confirmed it’s not a bug.
It’s a coding error, certainly; the sequence should’ve been made impossible to trigger, but it’s a legitimate result.
If anything, it just proves the games are random. Had this result come up in testing, I’m fairly certain it would’ve been coded out.
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- Melbourne, Australia
The fake streamer doesn't get paid anyway hence why they say its not a bug and a valid win.
Whats the bet if any normal player got that win the casino would use the malfunction voids win call. I can also guarantee they will have fixed this bug in next patch of the game so a normal player will never receive it.
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- N Ireland
Depends if there was less than 50 million spins in the testing stage
They would have got paid if it had spun infinitely and won £infinite? Get that it would have crashed but at what point..without doubt they would have called malfunction. Would have been an interesting court case after they ruled against Betfred for A Green.
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Assuming the whole result is generated up front, the player would never have seen a result. It would have crashed the server during result generation and the front end would time out. Standard procedure is then normally to cancel the bet and refund the player, as a result can never be determined.
If the result was spin by spin then actually it wouldn't crash, until either the server ran out of memory (if it holds the result in memory while in play) or until the database ran out of space (which, frankly, would take forever). So in theory the casino would have to pay out whatever max is in their T&C. If there was no max anywhere (doubtful) then I have no idea what they would do haha. This is why max win caps exist though.
And its not really a code issue, its more of a slot design issue. If all the reels are the same as each other, then this becomes possible. So regardless of code, they should have just designed their reel sets better.
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Well, if the casino had no intention of paying, I doubt they would’ve raised the query to Pragmatic.
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No - the game has a max win cap, so once it hits the cap, it’s done.
Not exactly the same that pragmatic explained us here...
Interesting!
Dan_Pragmatic
Dormant account
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- Manila
Hi all,
After reading all your comments/questions I would like to clarify further.
1. In certain scenarios in Fruit Party the reels are copies of one another. That doesn’t mean however the same is true for the entire game. Every game has different reels and implementations for different scenarios, that’s part of what can make a slot so great.
2. Pragmatic Play was aware of the possibility of indefinite tumble. This scenario was however not resolved because it would be “handled” by the upper win cap.
Br,
Daniel
After reading all your comments/questions I would like to clarify further.
1. In certain scenarios in Fruit Party the reels are copies of one another. That doesn’t mean however the same is true for the entire game. Every game has different reels and implementations for different scenarios, that’s part of what can make a slot so great.
2. Pragmatic Play was aware of the possibility of indefinite tumble. This scenario was however not resolved because it would be “handled” by the upper win cap.
Br,
Daniel
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- N Ireland
And to think a streamer/affiliate was the lucky soul to trigger it. What are the odds on that. What are the odds that a code was written for the streamer to max out the game, but the code glitched? That wouldn't be possible as there's no proof so the odds on that would be much higher?
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
I don't buy this...
Firstly, i would be absolutely amazed if every reel was identical in this game.
Secondly, he got this from doing a feature buy - so in that case, surely the reels are spinning to "specific" positions in order to guarantee a feature, no?
Thirdly, if all reel bands landed in the same place (as you say) according to the RNG, then they AREN'T the same, because reel 3 has a feature symbol on the bottom row - so this is a lie UNLESS the feature symbols are added at random to the reels, in which case your assertion that the reels are all the same and randomly determined definitely doesn't add up.
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What about this.
There are X different reel definitions. Each spin each reel is randomly assigned one of the definitions. In this case, 2, 3, 4, and 5 got randomly assigned the same definitions.
The scatter symbols are not part of the reel definitions but are inserted/overwrite a symbol. As part of the feature buy, it was randomly determined that it was a 3 scatter feature, and so no more scatters were subsequently added after the initial 3.
The reels then all land on the same stop position, and proceed to loop indefinitely. There is no scatter on the reel definition, and no new scatters are added due to the above, so the reels just loop forever.
I *think* that would make sense?
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It would make sense in terms of that might be what happened, but what a monumentally dumb way of doing the feature buy if that is what actually happened
slotmaster
Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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I was waiting for days for trancemonkey to post in this thread! ?
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