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GVC - Coral and Galacasino showing the wrong RTP to players, possible breach of license

Fridayhigh said:
After following this thread, I am asking myself if it's really Coral to blame or PlaynGo. Awhile back I had a problem when one of their games that froze up on a feature, and contacted VS, and they returned with an explanation from Png and screenshots. Well the explanation and screenshots did not match up one bit. I called Sweden and held on along time to got someone high up, but they were not forthcoming. And back in the day, must be 5 years now they like other providers said all their games were set in stone at 96 point whatever. Funny now that Harry reports a variety of RTP's not unlike the days of RTG.

It comes to the point where the only sane thing is return to the green felt and watch a live shuffle. When you are spending more over coffee every morning on penny slots then a three day comped trip by SBM in Monaco, you need your head examined. Nice touch Bryan or whoever on the 404 page not found when I tried to get on Casino Meister, must have struck a nerve that it was the just penalty for unscrupulous behavior of operators/(not players). Funny none the less - nice one!
Click to expand...

The RTP part of the complaint is 100% down to Coral. It is their in house help files that are incorrect, not sure how it could be down to PlaynGo, their help files aren't even available.
 
Nordog said:
Maybe some of us put part of the blame on playngo, simply cause they setup the game to allow this to happen.
Click to expand...

As part of their sales pitch they offered different RTP versions to the industry. The issue is not caused by them, it's simply that the stated RTP did not match to the one it was running on.
.
As someone else has alluded to, if punters start voting with their wallets on this and joining only the casnos with maximised RTP it may soon change some operators minds on running with lower RTP versions.
 
The only thing missing is the Benny Hill Theme song.
 
nufc 1892 said:
after finding out about this i contacted live chat and tbh was a complete waste of time
Click to expand...


This is exactly the nonsense you go through with them. It's never ending. Someone says they will escalate it, contact them again weeks later and nobody knows anything about you, the issue or the escalation. Process repeats! An utterly shambolic organisation.
 
This thread and the subsequent support chat logs are like the gift that keeps on giving.

The fact there is a massive lack of managerial concern on this - evidenced by the clueless support responses - is making me wonder if they know something that we don’t on the UKGC spotlight on this.

I’ll say again, a criminal fraud charge isn't too far fetched as the response to this, the full net player compensation and fine should be a given, the latter compulsory as a deterrent against other casinos making this same “mistake” and also to protect the industry integrity as a whole.
 
Nate said:
I might have missed it somewhere in this thread..

What exactly is the difference between their self made help file and the one from Play'n Go?
Click to expand...

That information is in the very first post in the thread :)
 
if that was a smaller casino group I think it would have been torn apart by now from all fronts - refunds to affected players , fines , suspensions of license etc ....
 
EkJR said:
As part of their sales pitch they offered different RTP versions to the industry. The issue is not caused by them, it's simply that the stated RTP did not match to the one it was running on.
.
As someone else has alluded to, if punters start voting with their wallets on this and joining only the casnos with maximised RTP it may soon change some operators minds on running with lower RTP versions.
Click to expand...
I think you missunderstood what i pointed to. That the helpfile is stores on a webpage, that Coral " hijacked" the link to and used to show wrong RTP.
 
Checked Vavada casino about which this conversation originally started, it seems like they have removed RTP information on their Play'n Go info files completely- either I'm blind or each game I checked seems to be missing the RTP line.
 
I hear what you're saying Colin. But that is the problem in this industry and every other - that outsource. The operator will say they only rent them and their help files were displayed correctly to the best of their knowledge. You'll not only have to prove negligence, but also intent. And intent will be very hard to prove unless you get them to turn over internal emails. There are too many companies that are affiliated with one particular site or domain. and they all can pass the blame. and or plead ignorance.
 
Fridayhigh said:
I hear what you're saying Colin. But that is the problem in this industry and every other - that outsource. The operator will say they only rent them and their help files were displayed correctly to the best of their knowledge. You'll not only have to prove negligence, but also intent. And intent will be very hard to prove unless you get them to turn over internal emails. There are too many companies that are affiliated with one particular site or domain. and they all can pass the blame. and or plead ignorance.
Click to expand...

They are sourced from a coral.co.uk server, I have it in writing it is a department at GVC who write the files. How can they say it wasn't down to them? Especially when they have admitted fault.
 
L&L-Jan said:
The only thing missing is the Benny Hill Theme song.
Click to expand...
Not anymore.
Altho a picture from battle of slots also made its way in.

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And now that ive added something valuable to the topic, i can finally point out that its funny that it says "possible breach of lice" when the thread shows on the first page.
 
Fridayhigh said:
I hear what you're saying Colin. But that is the problem in this industry and every other - that outsource. The operator will say they only rent them and their help files were displayed correctly to the best of their knowledge. You'll not only have to prove negligence, but also intent. And intent will be very hard to prove unless you get them to turn over internal emails. There are too many companies that are affiliated with one particular site or domain. and they all can pass the blame. and or plead ignorance.
Click to expand...
Wrong, intent does not come into it with regard to civil law/compensation - with criminal fraud charge it would to a degree. Also Coral are the end user service provider so the buck stops legally with them. If you played any PnG games first things first i’d be asking for is a GDPR request for confirmation of all funds played there. Then write to them asking for a full refund with the corresponding UKGC handbook rules on RTP.
 
colinsunderland said:
Well the rep hasn't been online for 2 days now, no customer seems to have had any emails yet, Gala are still showing the wrong RTP on at least one game I showed above, Coral have removed all their PnG games. We are now into the 10th day since they were alerted to the problem. Well done GVC for your top quality customer service.
Click to expand...

Its really unbelievable how Corals are dealing or rather not dealing with this,I can understand the magnitude
of the problem will be difficult for them to address but they dont seem to care a f**k about the regulators
or the players,surely it cant be that difficult to email the affected players saying that they have made mistakes
and are working on a resolution,
If they end up having to refund the 2% difference to all who played the games it would not cost a fortune
and would be dwarfed by the possible fine the UKGC could impose
 
shadow123 said:
The question of compensation, if they deciede to do it, is going to be a tricky one,
how do you work out how much a player has lost through reduced rtp,
Its possible to argue that even if a player has won playing the affected games,it has still
cost them money as extra 2% has been charged on every play so winning or losing is not really
a factor.
The only fair way would be to add up all the wagers on each individual game (bear in mind that the difference
in the rake will not the same on all the games) and calculate the overcharge factor.Good luck trying to
work that one out.
If they do compensate on that basis, i will be claiming as I lost a lot in a very short period playing play and go
and red tigers there and ended up SE with them as i so fed up with losing.
Click to expand...

Its actually very easy for them to do it that way if they just use total wagers and refund the RTP differance eg 2% if you played through £1000 they would technically owe you £20 whether you won or lost.
 
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shadow123 said:
Its really unbelievable how Corals are dealing or rather not dealing with this,I can understand the magnitude
of the problem will be difficult for them to address but they dont seem to care a f**k about the regulators
or the players,surely it cant be that difficult to email the affected players saying that they have made mistakes
and are working on a resolution,
If they end up having to refund the 2% difference to all who played the games it would not cost a fortune
and would be dwarfed by the possible fine the UKGC could impose
Click to expand...

You would have to be an absolute fool to accept that as compensation. It’s a regulated product, the rules are clear and exact and exist for the customer to make an informed choice as a minimum.

If there is incorrect information to make that informed choice, then you could (reasonably) argue that you spent money at that casino on that games over and above a competitor offering the same or higher rtp. They would be getting of absolutely lightly with just a fine and full net refunds. Due to the delay in acting whilst being informed of the error - as well as the delay we are seeing now, they should be taking the easy route and compensating voluntarily now.
 
But you're still playing, right? :p

I don't think anyone in here suggests ALL companies, all providers, all slots are fair; there's bad bastiches in any industry; rather, by and large, there's some very reputable casinos that play by the rules and are safe as houses.
 
SpinUk said:
You would have to be an absolute fool to accept that as compensation. It’s a regulated product, the rules are clear and exact and exist for the customer to make an informed choice as a minimum.

If there is incorrect information to make that informed choice, then you could (reasonably) argue that you spent money at that casino on that games over and above a competitor offering the same or higher rtp. They would be getting of absolutely lightly with just a fine and full net refunds. Due to the delay in acting whilst being informed of the error - as well as the delay we are seeing now, they should be taking the easy route and compensating voluntarily now.
Click to expand...

I would think in law you are only entitled to the 2% overcharge,that is the actual money you lost playing the games but if most casinos were running at 94% and Corals gave the impression that they were offering
96% there could well be a case for a fraudulent incitement to play at their casino.
Will be interesting to see what happens,the UKGC have been very active fining smaller companies,
you would think they would come down very hard on Coral.
 
shadow123 said:
I would think in law you are only entitled to the 2% overcharge,that is the actual money you lost playing the games but if most casinos were running at 94% and Corals gave the impression that they were offering
96% there could well be a case for a fraudulent incitement to play at their casino.
Will be interesting to see what happens,the UKGC have been very active fining smaller companies,
you would think they would come down very hard on Coral.
Click to expand...

But you can't work it at 2%, as unless you have done millions of spins, it wouldn't work like that. They should refund any losses at least for the period they were misleading customers. Would it affect all customers having the incorrect RTP displayed, probably not, but thats what happens when you cheat, you get caught, you pay. Remember they knew about this for a week before actually doing something about it, and before the arguments start about 'but the people higher up didn't know' well, tough shit. Don't have shit customer support staff who don't pass important issues to management and this wouldn't happen. They ONLY reacted because it was posted on here. If it hadn't been, the games would still be on site. Bad publicity = oh shit, we better do something. I would put money on, if it was a casino like Videoslots, AllBritish, LVBet, 32Red etc, it wouldn't have been so hard to speak to someone, and the games would have been removed a lot quicker.

Even refunding all losses doesn't really work, but at least its a gesture of goodwill. Someone who's won over the period might have had double the winnings if it was 96% RTP rather than 94%. That 4 x explorer someone got in a bonus might have been 5 if it was running at the higher level.

I personally don't play anywhere running the lower RTP, I closed my Videoslots account due to it, I closed my Trada account when they moved to Aspire mainly for that reason. I have kept playing at Coral during the period I knew it was wrong, but that was solely for testing, now it's been proven, I won't be any more.

If I was GVC I would refund people, for the simple fact I think the UKGC will take a more lenient view if they make a gesture like that, although I still think the loss limit not being enforced will be more what the UKGC focus on.

Anyway, everyone should have an email tomorrow, so we shall see ;)
 
Hope I will still be entitled to any refund as I self excluded at Coral as I so sick of losing, was not with
them for long but played the affected games quite a bit.Presumably they will still have a record of my play.
I did close the account but decieded to SE as well as they provide a link to rejoin if you close.
I wanted to make sure I would never be tempted to play there again.
 
Kroffe said:
Not anymore.
Altho a picture from battle of slots also made its way in.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


And now that ive added something valuable to the topic, i can finally point out that its funny that it says "possible breach of lice" when the thread shows on the first page.
Click to expand...

Pure skill mate, pure skill :)
 
Apart from the fact that their response is factually incorrect, and totally misses the point anyway, that is the exact reason why I said email is a waste of time with them. 3 days for the response, if he replies pointing out their errors, it will be another 3 days until he gets another similar response, which will be ongoing for weeks.
 
nufc 1892 said:
got an email back from coral 3 days after i sent it about this this was the response
Click to expand...


That line where they say "We employ algorithms and practices to ensure total fairness to every player"
Is contrary to anything being random and is very scary. If the game engine is legit as is any RNG that can be, there would be nothing else for them to so call employ. This has always been my concern al along.
 
SpinUk said:
Wrong, intent does not come into it with regard to civil law/compensation - with criminal fraud charge it would to a degree. Also Coral are the end user service provider so the buck stops legally with them. If you played any PnG games first things first i’d be asking for is a GDPR request for confirmation of all funds played there. Then write to them asking for a full refund with the corresponding UKGC handbook rules on RTP.
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing that out SpinUK. I would use the word "Due Diligence" then instead of intent. We know according to Colin they're 100 % negligent. And now because of the time scale on correcting the issue or dealing with it, they should be held responsible. It fits the definition perfectly " reasonable steps taken by a person to avoid committing a tort or offence"
 
mack341 said:
eh? 'our games are powered by the gvc systems' does that mean then if I play BOD at coral the rng is different to the one for example unibet use; I thought the rng is part of the game, created by png and situated on the server.

maybe I've misunderstood how slots are set up all along :confused:
Click to expand...

yep, thats what I meant by it being factually incorrect, must be running pirate games then :)
If the rep ever bothers coming back maybe he can explain.
 
colinsunderland said:
yep, thats what I meant by it being factually incorrect, must be running pirate games then :)
If the rep ever bothers coming back maybe he can explain.
Click to expand...

It must be the case as I can't see how this coral employee could just totally make up something with no basis in reality, unless they mean the systems gvc use [provided by the slot makers ] are top notch; however if the meaning is as it's written, it would explain why games seem to play slightly different at various sites...
 
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nufc 1892 said:
got an email back from coral 3 days after i sent it about this this was the response
Click to expand...


This is just a cut and paste email for when a customer complains about the games being “fixed”.

Can we have a new Casinomeister award please, title being “Most Vapid and Inept Casino Response in the Face of Impending Disaster”? As I think we have a strong contender waiting in the wings.
 
I remember hearing a while back that companies employ this tactic with waiting a few days, then releasing a statement on a Friday.

Apart from the obvious nonsense contained within and being unable to respond because it's the end of the week etc, there's also a technique in how they paragraph and arrange their answer so as to draw your attention to a specific part etc, it's hoodwinkery 101 and something they clearly hone.

And of course that it's a load of pretentious nothing-speak that addresses precisely nothing. That's usually the other clue :eek:
 
LeoVegas removed PlaynGo from the danish site. I asked why and got an answer two days later that they hope the danish gambling commission will aprove soon. Kind of strange, since they had them running at the 96ish version since 2016.
tbf it could be a license renewal. Who knows?
 
The UKGC has guidelines for complaints handling which Coral MUST adhere to. These can be found here
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In short, when a complaint is received they have 8 weeks to respond. This applies to email and telephone but I could not see any mention of live chat.

My advice, for anybody interested in seeing this through to a satisfactory resolution for themselves, would be to lodge an 'official complaint' by stating just that, on an email or on the phone.

You should receive a confirmation email and resolution within 8 weeks. That process is outlined by the UKGC.

The only use I see for live chat would be to ask for the complaints email or a copy of their complaints procedure.

As for intent or accidental it's neither here nor there as far as accountability goes.

Personally I believe the error was and has been known about and they have dragged their heels to correct it for the sake of extra revenue. All the evidence points that way more than the other.

And finally, anybody who believes lower RTP does not affect them doesn't really grasp the concept. How can it not affect you?!
 
Just had the below from a friend who has queried their gameplay as a response from Coral.

Dear Sir ,

Thank you for contacting Customer Service.

After the return from the payment department, we would like to inform you that GVC have 100% belief in the fairness of our games and customers enter and gamble on our sites in good faith on both sides.

We regret to inform you that you are not entitled to a refund.

Many thanks

In case you have further questions, we will be more than happy to assist you.

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site.

Best regards,

Customer Service
 
EkJR said:
Just had the below from a friend who has queried their gameplay as a response from Coral.

Dear Sir ,

Thank you for contacting Customer Service.

After the return from the payment department, we would like to inform you that GVC have 100% belief in the fairness of our games and customers enter and gamble on our sites in good faith on both sides.

We regret to inform you that you are not entitled to a refund.

Many thanks

In case you have further questions, we will be more than happy to assist you.

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site.

Best regards,

Customer Service
Click to expand...

I have it in writing the games were not playing at the same RTP as stated in the helpfiles, so that is a lie from them.
 

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