Forum ass-clowns and the definition of fraud

[steffigraff77]

Anyone had any experience with this casino? [NB: original thread title was "casinoseiger.com"] They owe me about 4000 euros. They went through a laborious procedure of KYC including notarised ID but have stalled. They have paid me back my deposits via MB but claim that they keep getting rejected by my bank to complete the KYC procedure.

It has been 9 weeks. All i get is that" we are looking into it"

Have i been done? And if i have what can i do? I don't imagine CM can help here but who can in this situation?

 

[me_and_ed]

Anyone had any experience with this casino? They owe me about 4000 euros. They went through a laborious procedure of KYC including notarised ID but have stalled. They have paid me back my deposits via MB but claim that they keep getting rejected by my bank to complete the KYC procedure.

It has been 9 weeks. All i get is that" we are looking into it"

Have i been done? And if i have what can i do? I don't imagine CM can help here but who can in this situation?

9 weeks, I would fill out a PAB ASAP and get Max looking into it..

 

[vinylweatherman]

Anyone had any experience with this casino? They owe me about 4000 euros. They went through a laborious procedure of KYC including notarised ID but have stalled. They have paid me back my deposits via MB but claim that they keep getting rejected by my bank to complete the KYC procedure.

It has been 9 weeks. All i get is that" we are looking into it"

Have i been done? And if i have what can i do? I don't imagine CM can help here but who can in this situation?

Most odd, but something YOU can check out with your bank to find what is REALLY going on. Your bank would have done their own KYC before offering you an account, so as far as they are concerned, it's not an issue.

It's either a stalling tactic, which you can find out from your bank by asking about anything that has been attempted, but rejected, on your account, or the casino is themselves not passing your bank's KYC, and so they are not allowing the payment to go through.

It's also worth finding out if the casino has been trying to TAKE money from your bank account as it's means to perform KYC. Your bank may reject this if it believes you have not authorised this. It can also be a problem if they are trying to take the KYC token debit coded as "gambling transaction", with your bank rejecting it due to it being a gambling transaction, rather than any KYC issue.

You should be able to find out all of this from your bank, and can then approach the casino with the findings.

Since you deposited via MB in the first place, how come your bank is even involved, the sum should all go back to MB under the usual rule of paying withdrawals back to the method used for the deposit.

 

[steffigraff77]

I have spoken to my bank and they have no knowledge of any rejected transactions. The bank is involved to complete their KYC procedures as they repeatedly keep telling me ( i kept asking the same!)


This is my bank:

Re: Credit Query

Thank you for your message dated 01-Aug-2013.

I suggest you contact Company Casinoseiger to see the reason for the delay or payment getting returned, as first direct do not have any control over credits into your account. There would only be a delay is an incorrect sort code or account number was quoted.

Please contact us if you require anything further.

Regards

Banking Solutions


And this is back on the 26th July...with no further updates.

Thank you for your patience.
As promised I would send you an update today.
Unfortunately I am still waiting for the final written approval from the board on this exception,

FYI: the suggestion made to them by me was to pay you an advanced payment by moneybookers untill we made the transfer by bank ( succesfully), because we would be really happy to keep you on board.

I am now awaiting for the amounts which can be already cleared this way and if it is an option due to the failed banktransfer.
I expect to get an update / approval during this weekend.

Sincerely,
Christian
Finance Department
Casino Sieger

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have spoken to my bank and they have no knowledge of any rejected transactions. The bank is involved to complete their KYC procedures as they repeatedly keep telling me ( i kept asking the same!)


This is my bank:

Re: Credit Query

Thank you for your message dated 01-Aug-2013.

I suggest you contact Company Casinoseiger to see the reason for the delay or payment getting returned, as first direct do not have any control over credits into your account. There would only be a delay is an incorrect sort code or account number was quoted.

Please contact us if you require anything further.

Regards

Banking Solutions


And this is back on the 26th July...with no further updates.

Thank you for your patience.
As promised I would send you an update today.
Unfortunately I am still waiting for the final written approval from the board on this exception,

FYI: the suggestion made to them by me was to pay you an advanced payment by moneybookers untill we made the transfer by bank ( succesfully), because we would be really happy to keep you on board.

I am now awaiting for the amounts which can be already cleared this way and if it is an option due to the failed banktransfer.
I expect to get an update / approval during this weekend.

Sincerely,
Christian
Finance Department
Casino Sieger

If this is the fault, the bank would not be able to trace the attempt, but it's also not "your bank" doing the rejecting, but one of THEIR banks, or an intermediary.

One thing you can now do is triple check the sort code and account number the casino have used, and make sure it's the same as the one you have given, and is correct. A final step would be to forward the bank details the casino has used to First Direct, and ask them if they can see any problem with it.

So a mere €4000 is SO large that they can't handle it through the usual channels, their MB account to yours. If they really want to keep you on board, they are giving you a VERY bad impression of their ability to pay even moderate wins.

They should bite the bullet and move the money into their merchant MB account so that they can pay you. Granted, it may take 3 working days to do this before they can action payment, but at least it will bring an end to this issue next week.

You could also PAB to get to the bottom of this, but it does seem that they want to pay you, but for some reason find they can't.

 

[steffigraff77]

Thanks..the sort codes and account numbers have been triple checked but i hadn't thought about getting the bank details the casino uses and see if First direct find a problem with that. Can i still PAB even though this is not an accredited casino here? I didn't think i could? Also i sense they will just say they are working on it...and part of me believes this but what is considered reasonable time in trying to solve a problem?

Here is a live chat from 1st August..another response i got when i pushed them again...

Me: hi
You are now chatting with carla.
carla: Hi M, How may I help you?
Me: HI carla
Me: still no sign of my withdrawal? what is going on? Please can you help?
carla: let me look up your file and your username
Me: Is it unreasonable to expect payment by now?
carla: I see Christian send you a message earlier today
Me: I have just had an email from Christian 3 mins ago!
carla: 3 mins ago?
carla: ah, yes chekcing the time it is
Me: yes..but it is more of the same...
Me: I understand your position, but for us it is also not normal that a banking transfer willbe declined. I am doing my best to make an exception for you here, and get payouts done ASAP to you. Once again, you are right that is taking more time than normal, but unfortunately we can not change the fact the payouts got declined by bank. Normally it will be handled after 24 hours, and on bank acounts 1-3 working days afterwards. I keep you posted.
carla: What do you mean, by more of the same?
Me: same thing he has been saying to me for weeks now.
carla: I see, he is trying to make an exception for you here,,,
carla: Normal procedures are that we have a known valid bankpayment for our KYC records.
Me: i don't understand why ( like so many other casinos) payment can't be made back to moneybookers ( my deposit method) or neteller ( my other e-wallet)...
carla: I see there is the trouble.
Me: i know... but if it is not working ...we can't just carry on ignoring things!
carla: becuase we are bound to regulations which preventing money laundering
carla: that is why we set up a policy according to those rules
Me: My bank has never refused bacs tranfers before from all over the world!
carla: one part for higher payment amounts, is that we also have a proven right bank account, than we know alwyas to whho we send money to.
Me: can you give me details of attempted bacs transfers..where from, when , how much etc so i can ask my bank ...
carla: Al I can see here in a glance is that we have tried 3 times -
carla: I have no access to the banking logs are statements, I can only see the attempts and results
Me: its the UK... it should work...it has always worked in the past... I need the details. I am really frustrated.
carla: I really understand your frustration M
Me: Can you get the details so i can try to do something my end.
carla: But I know your case in in good hands at Christians

Its the most frustrating experience i have ever had. God knows why i ever signed up to them...Just fancied trying a new place ...they didn't even have a great bonus !

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks..the sort codes and account numbers have been triple checked but i hadn't thought about getting the bank details the casino uses and see if First direct find a problem with that. Can i still PAB even though this is not an accredited casino here? I didn't think i could? Also i sense they will just say they are working on it...and part of me believes this but what is considered reasonable time in trying to solve a problem?

Here is a live chat from 1st August..another response i got when i pushed them again...

Me: hi
You are now chatting with carla.
carla: Hi M, How may I help you?
Me: HI carla
Me: still no sign of my withdrawal? what is going on? Please can you help?
carla: let me look up your file and your username
Me: Is it unreasonable to expect payment by now?
carla: I see Christian send you a message earlier today
Me: I have just had an email from Christian 3 mins ago!
carla: 3 mins ago?
carla: ah, yes chekcing the time it is
Me: yes..but it is more of the same...
Me: I understand your position, but for us it is also not normal that a banking transfer willbe declined. I am doing my best to make an exception for you here, and get payouts done ASAP to you. Once again, you are right that is taking more time than normal, but unfortunately we can not change the fact the payouts got declined by bank. Normally it will be handled after 24 hours, and on bank acounts 1-3 working days afterwards. I keep you posted.
carla: What do you mean, by more of the same?
Me: same thing he has been saying to me for weeks now.
carla: I see, he is trying to make an exception for you here,,,
carla: Normal procedures are that we have a known valid bankpayment for our KYC records.
Me: i don't understand why ( like so many other casinos) payment can't be made back to moneybookers ( my deposit method) or neteller ( my other e-wallet)...
carla: I see there is the trouble.
Me: i know... but if it is not working ...we can't just carry on ignoring things!
carla: becuase we are bound to regulations which preventing money laundering
carla: that is why we set up a policy according to those rules
Me: My bank has never refused bacs tranfers before from all over the world!
carla: one part for higher payment amounts, is that we also have a proven right bank account, than we know alwyas to whho we send money to.
Me: can you give me details of attempted bacs transfers..where from, when , how much etc so i can ask my bank ...
carla: Al I can see here in a glance is that we have tried 3 times -
carla: I have no access to the banking logs are statements, I can only see the attempts and results
Me: its the UK... it should work...it has always worked in the past... I need the details. I am really frustrated.
carla: I really understand your frustration M
Me: Can you get the details so i can try to do something my end.
carla: But I know your case in in good hands at Christians

Its the most frustrating experience i have ever had. God knows why i ever signed up to them...Just fancied trying a new place ...they didn't even have a great bonus !

There is no SPECIFIC regulation that stipulates payment must be made to a particular account, just that whatever accounts are used have gone through the appropriate KYC checks.

Moneybookers (Skrill) is also an account that has to comply with KYC procedures, so once verified, is just as much a "known account" as a bank account. Since you have deposited via Skrill, the casino has already verified the account.

There is also an alternative to their failed procedures, and that is for you to DEPOSIT from the bank account they are trying to pay to. This will also tie you to the account, and even if they still can't make payment to it, they will at least have satisfied their "policy".

I usually deposit via Neteller, and have frequently withdrawn more than €4000, WAY more, yet have never had a casino insist on paying via bank transfer.

From what First Direct told you, you (or a fraudster) could more EASILY defraud the casino by providing the sort code and account number of their own account, having first deposited via a hacked Skrill account. The bank cannot check CREDITS, it's just a matter of the sender providing the correct details, which in turn is provided by the player. Making a deposit from your bank is a different matter, you either have to log in to the bank to initiate the transfer, or use a debit card on the casino's banking page, for which you will need possession of the card. The casino would then get the details from the inbound deposit and be able to check that the name matches the details provided to the casino.

There is yet another alternative, knowing which bank it is, and that is for them to send a cheque, and you to pay it in using one of those envelopes you will have been sent to manage the account, and which can be ordered online if you run out.

Whilst a cheque is even slower than the 1-3 days for a bank transfer, if it's in your name, and the casino's bank account has the money, it should go through. The casino will not have to use your sort code and account number to send a cheque, you provide this on the envelope when paying it in.

They can then verify that the cheque has been deposited, which again should satisfy their policy of having a verified bank account on file for you.

As for me, NO casino has "my bank details on file", so there is something a bit odd going on here.

Now this in particular looks like the whole thing is a stalling tactic:-

carla: I have no access to the banking logs are statements, I can only see the attempts and results
Me: its the UK... it should work...it has always worked in the past... I need the details. I am really frustrated.
carla: I really understand your frustration M
Me: Can you get the details so i can try to do something my end.
carla: But I know your case in in good hands at Christians

Understandable that CS don't have instant access to this, but then CS dodges the request for them to obtain the details the cashiers are using so that you can verify with your bank that they are correct. They would rather work in the dark as they have been trying for half the month, rather than have you help out by getting help from First Direct as to why THEY are bouncing the credits back to the casino's bank.

It could be that the casino's bank are using the details you sent, but not in the correct format for the region from which the transaction originates. Perhaps they are trying to use the sort code and account number as IBAN and BIC, for an international (non US) payment, whereas in the short form (6 digit sort and 8 digit account no) they are for transfers between accounts wholly within the UK banking system.

You could try sending them the international IBAN and BIC to try, instead of the sort code and account number. This might work (unless they really are stalling). IBAN and BIC are shown on the statement that comes through the post, or if you have online only, should be available from the banking pages, or you could phone them and ask.

You should seriously consider not going back to this casino after this gets sorted out, it has been a complete farce of a very simple procedure.

 

[steffigraff77]

Thanks again for your very helpful response. I am onto them again and will offer them some of your suggestions... Incidently they do have my IBAN etc.. I had to have a statement specially ordered which they insisted on.

They have gone quiet for a week now...

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks again for your very helpful response. I am onto them again and will offer them some of your suggestions... Incidently they do have my IBAN etc.. I had to have a statement specially ordered which they insisted on.

They have gone quiet for a week now...

In that case, they should have the definitive copy of your bank details, so the onus is now on them to figure it out.

Either they are stalling, or someone is screwing up at their end, either their cashier, or their processor and the bank they use.

This kind of thing has happened before with players trying to get paid by international bank transfer. Where the player has given the correct information, it has stemmed from the casino's own finance team or the processor they use thinking they know better and "correcting" the details forwarded by the player because as far as they are concerned, they are wrong.

I had this problem with Neteller crediting my Cahoot account. I was giving them the correct information, and double checking, and the payments were getting through. I then received a letter from my bank telling me that in fact Neteller had decided they knew better, and were changing the sort code every time. This meant Cahoot had to manually retrieve and divert the payment from "credit card payments" (the sort code Neteller were using) to "current accounts", and they were getting fed up with it, so told me that if it wasn't corrected, I might no longer receive the money.

I wonder if the same is happening to you, and unlike Cahoot, First Direct are not able (or willing) the redirect the payment manually, so bounce it back. Since this would also mean the attempt was not tied to your account, the bank would tell you that no attempt to make the payment can be traced, rather than that they rejected it.

Usually, casinos ask for a bank statement where the player says the money didn't arrive, but their processor said it did (it hasn't bounced back). In this case, they KNOW it didn't arrive, so they don't need you to prove it. The other possibility is that they asked for the statement because they didn't believe you when you said the details you gave were correct, so want to see for themselves.


This is why casinos insisting on bank transfer payments is not a good sign, there can be problems when it comes to sending international payments. It should be OK for the operators that target the UK though, as they will ensure that the payment is handled by a UK bank. It seems from my experience with Neteller that Barclays is one of the preferred options (not even this works 100%).

A cheque in Sterling drawn on a UK or EU bank might be a better option in terms of getting the money to go through, but it would mean you waiting another week at least. Casinos have paid me this way before, and so has Neteller. All have arrived in the post in under a week, and created no problems when deposited into my bank.

 

[steffigraff77]

I will try the cheque route..but is suspect they will repeat that the only way they can complete the KYC procedure is by electronic bank transfer. One of the other problems is i am not sure if it is incompetence or deliberate avoidance of payment? Should i threaten court action? I don't mind doing it for 4k tbh.

 

[Nifty29]

I will try the cheque route..but is suspect they will repeat that the only way they can complete the KYC procedure is by electronic bank transfer. One of the other problems is i am not sure if it is incompetence or deliberate avoidance of payment? Should i threaten court action? I don't mind doing it for 4k tbh.

What court action? Where?

You'd be wasting your time and money.

A PAB would be a better option.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Casino Sieger is an online casino where you can play Blackjack, Live Roulette, Punto Banco and 3D videoslots. Get to know our online live casino, try our slot machines, poker and other offers, which are also played in real casino’s. Discover Casino Sieger and you directly receive our exclusive welcome bonus. Casino Sieger will be overseen by the government of Costa Rica. All rights are reserved. Logos, text and trademarks are protected by copyright.

Looks like a load of KYC Bullshit

There is no one telling them how to do their KYC, they have just made up their own internal policy, so if they need to, they can vary it according to the situation without having to consult their regulator.

The government of Costa Rica don't "oversee" anything, it's a rubber stamp "business license", and it has nothing to do with regulating the activity they do as their business, but more to do with ensuring that they contribute to the local economy.

What I find even more striking is that they offer Microgaming, out of Costa Rica

Zero chance therefore of a meaningful court action.


What has happened to the standards that Microgaming once held dear, where players could pretty much be certain that any operator offering Microgaming games could be trusted, and would at least be properly licensed. It seems that where Quickfire and other browser based platforms are concerned, Microgaming do NOT vet the operators as they do for a Viper casino, thus the appearance of Microgaming games should not be taken as an indication that Microgaming have given them their seal of approval.


If they are sending payment from Costa Rica, it's hardly surprising they have screwed up somehow, and are blaming YOUR bank.

It seems they are targeting two markets, and the UK is one of them. They may be one of the operators who will flout the new UK regime from December 2014, knowing full well there is nothing the UK government can do about it other than to block their domain by court order.

Given their location, and thus effectively unlicensed status, a PAB is probably the only option worth pursuing if they continue to claim your bank is rejecting the transfer now that they have a copy of your statement with the relevant banking details on it.

From the "spot the rogue" guide:-

Where are they licensed? If they claim to be licensed in Costa Rica or any other place in Central America, you can be sure that they are unlicensed - in other words, they do not have a gaming license but only a business license. Caveat - there are a number of casinos that have their servers based in Costa Rica which are reputable operations. When in doubt - check our Accredited List, or pose a question in our forum.

 

[Nifty29]

What court action? Where?

You'd be wasting your time and money.

A PAB would be a better option.

= what VWM said but in 3 sentences.

 

[Cleveland]

= what VWM said but in 3 sentences.

 

[steffigraff77]

Ok..I will forget the courts then...
I will hold fire for a little while to see what they come back with to the recent emails i have sent...they are usually polite, responsive and reassuring...
Failing that...no harm in a PAB.
Thanks all again.

 

[steffigraff77]

Rather worryingly....live chat has left me hanging waiting for an operator. And they have not responded to my emails from the weekend!
Lets give them a few more days....

 

[steffigraff77]

Strange stuff here..they have locked my account and just been on live chat and they have not received a single email from me in the last week. Maybe they blocked my email?
I don't think i am going to get paid...this is despite paying me my initial deposit back but non of my winnings!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Strange stuff here..they have locked my account and just been on live chat and they have not received a single email from me in the last week. Maybe they blocked my email?
I don't think i am going to get paid...this is despite paying me my initial deposit back but non of my winnings!

This makes it look more and more like bullshit and stalling. Casinos tend to return just the deposit when they have already made the decision not to pay, but have yet to inform the player, or feel that no independent attempt at mediation is forthcoming, or likely to change their decision.

Your alternative options apart from a PAB seem to have been exhausted, and it would seem that the only way to make meaningful progress is via a PAB. If they decide to stonewall Max, they risk coming to the attention of Bryan and entering the pit. Since they have already said the payment has been approved and sent, yet being blocked by the UK bank First Direct, they have very little room to change their story, as well as no room to claim it's your fault for giving the wrong details now that they have asked for, and you have sent, a statement from First Direct with the correct banking details on it.

It does rather look like that having been backed into a corner because the statement has the correct details, they are now trying to use the "never received it" excuse in order to argue that they still don't have access to solid confirmation of the correct details with which to send the payment. They are also using a bunch of excuses as to why a method that WILL work cannot be an option, despite it being the industry standard, and one of the key guidelines for the prevention of money laundering.

 

[steffigraff77]

I will give them a few more days and then PAB.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I will give them a few more days and then PAB.

You are just helping them stall further. It also gives them more time to put together their story, so best submit the PAB now. If the issue does get resolved in the mean time, just let Max know so that he doesn't waste more time than is necessary. Don't be the one to tell them either, let their first experience be the request from Max that they deal with this issue via the PAB procedure.

 

[steffigraff77]

Live chat told me management would get back to me in a couple of hours. They haven't.
PAB done.

 

[maxd]

PAB received. I'll be in touch shortly.

 

[questa]

Did they cough up?

 

[maxd]

The PAB is still a work in progress.

 

[mimi26]

I hate to read stories like this, personally I only stick to two casinos, ones I trust Ladbrokes and 32RED I would never open another account anywhere without asking here first

 

[maxd]

Okay, Bryan is back and remembered some history regarding the OP. Turns out he's had multiple accounts on the forum, etc. He's banned and his PAB -- which had pretty much come to a "thumbs down" conclusion anyway due to a high probability of fraudsterism -- is toast. End of story as far as we are concerned.

 

[hpiski]

KYC documents failed

The player failed to supply in due time the notary certified identification documents, the documents he delivered have failed the internal fraud scrutinity. The subject has also been discussed with Max and Bryan. Therefore we have decided to close the account of the player and refund his initial deposit.

 

[mimi26]

The player failed to supply in due time the notary certified identification documents, the documents he delivered have failed the internal fraud scrutinity. The subject has also been discussed with Max and Bryan. Therefore we have decided to close the account of the player and refund his initial deposit.

Just out of interest how long did you wait for the documents, 9 weeks seems an awful long time for a conclusion to this.

 

[maxd]

... 9 weeks seems an awful long time for a conclusion to this.

The PAB was received on the 20th August 2013. That's when it became clear that the primary issue was documents, and new requirements were given to the OP. Start to finish the PAB took 9 days give or take, not 9 weeks.

 

[mimi26]

The PAB was received on the 20th August 2013. That's when it became clear that the primary issue was documents, and new requirements were given to the OP. Start to finish the PAB took 9 days give or take, not 9 weeks.

Sorry maybe you misunderstood, I was talking about the op initail post to say he/she had been waiting 9 weeks for a conclusion from the casino.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just out of further interest,

Why is a rep for Grand Duke casino giving a formal statement about an issue involving fraud at Casinoseiger

It's pretty "clever" that the OP managed to slip their activities past Bryan for so long, multiple forum accounts usually get spotted earlier.

 

[maxd]

... I was talking about the op initail post to say he/she had been waiting 9 weeks for a conclusion from the casino.

I understand, but the OP was having problems with the casino because the casino had serious problems with the OP's documents. The some point the OP stopped responding to those document requests. Sometime later they appeared here.

The point is that the OP's claims that it was taking too long is like a thief saying "I would have left the store earlier but they took so long handing over the money". In other words, too bad for him! The casino had legitimate concerns and is never under any obligation to expedite their payouts to suspected fraudsters. Dealing with it in due course is all that is reasonably required and IMO they pretty much did that. Once the PAB was on the table they didn't hesitate for a moment to move things forward, and expected the OP to do the same.

 

[maxd]

It's pretty "clever" that the OP managed to slip their activities past Bryan for so long, multiple forum accounts usually get spotted earlier.

Shit happens, and your point is?

 

[questa]

Shit happens, and your point is?

So why were they supposedly trying to pay him by bank transfer?

What documents did they ask for, what did he provide?? Was he a fraudster, or just had an old forum account?

All seems a bit odd, I am deciding to avoid this casino regardless I think.

 

[maxd]

Was he a fraudster… .

As I recall Bryan had previously banned the guy from Casinomeister under similar circumstances. So yes, a serial fraudster [strike]both[/strike] here [strike]and at the casinos[/strike].

(See https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/forum-ass-clowns-and-the-definition-of-fraud.58408/ for details on the edits above)

 

[LaurieJim]

The player failed to supply in due time the notary certified identification documents, the documents he delivered have failed the internal fraud scrutinity. The subject has also been discussed with Max and Bryan. Therefore we have decided to close the account of the player and refund his initial deposit.

Could someone explain to me as what this Notary Certified Doc for gaming consists of , I do notarized docs / loans , ect everyday for a living and was just curious. Does said player have to afirm an oath and provide Goverment photo Id's or if no photo Id, wittnesses to bear proof of said players identity to a notary.

I do many US Patriot Act forms, which ask for 2 forms of IDs as proof of identity, checking signatures and other data , ect. What also is the cost to the player for services provided by the notary in Europe or elsewhere outside of the US? I understand that this service can be costly to players in some countries.

I am just having trouble understanding how the NCID docs failed internal fraud security as once the Id's are collected , signatures verified arnd the doc signed and stamped by the notary , they are then considered a legal doc and proof of identity has been established.

This can be a good thing but if the casino has a good fraud department , why do they need to burden the players with a hefty expense when they can do the same job themselves.

Just read Maxd's post above.................


Laurie

 

[maxd]

Could someone explain to me as what this Notary Certified Doc for gaming consists of ....

The notarization of documents varies from place to place, nothing specific to gaming. In some countries you can get standard documents notarized for free, in others (actually only one that I know of) there is no such thing as a Notary.

In this particular case, and many like it, what the casino is asking for is that the authenticity of the documents be verified and signed-off by the notary. But fraudsters can be and often are fairly creative people: fake notaries, bogus notary seals, photoshopping, etc are all tools for the fraudster trade when it comes to getting around the notarization issue. As I'm sure you'll understand it would be inappropriate to say EXACTLY what this particular fraudster did because then they'd know exactly how to up their game and try again next time.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Shit happens, and your point is?

My point is that the OP joined with this account in May 2009. This has given them more credibility than someone who joins purely to post a complaint. I had thought that behind the scenes was an automated check to flag accounts that might be duplicates of other forum accounts, especially banned ones. Banned members do keep trying to slip by, but they tend to get caught much more quickly than 4 years.

The OP could have gotten away with even more had they not screwed up with the First Direct account and caused repeated failures of the bank transfer that appeared to cause the casino to take an even closer look at the documents.

We now learn that even the system of notarised documents is beginning to get circumvented via fake notaries or seals. This is tough on fraudsters, but also presents a serious problem for honest players as I can't see what further steps can be taken after requesting a set of notarised documents through the post, other than actually sending someone around to the player's address to do an on the spot verification of everything. The weakness in the current system is that it's still the player that gets to prepare, get notarised, and send, the documents. This level of control makes it easier for the fraudster to try various schemes such as photoshopping and faking notarisation.

As well as the fakes, there are certain to be the genuine, but dishonest, notaries, who will produce a document which although fake, will check out OK during the verification procedures.

 

[maxd]

I had thought that behind the scenes was an automated check to flag accounts that might be duplicates ....

As previously pointed out your endless assumptions and speculations are not fact. The accounts screening process is largely a matter of hands-on expertise -- Bryan's -- and is not automated to any significant degree.

The OP could have gotten away with even more had they not screwed up with the First Direct account ...

And you know this how? You are privy to the casino's internal processes perhaps? Or is it that you have some personal access to the PAB files? No? None of the above? So you don't really know anything more than has been posted here do you? And you're willing to take the OP's statements at face value? How responsible is that, particularly coming from a seasoned and experienced forum member like yourself, not to mention using it as source material for your guesstimations and suppositions?

As has been asked of you before, please limit your statements to what you actually know or have reliable information on. Wild speculations -- essentially pulling stuff out of your arse and presenting it as fact -- helps no one and is nothing more than disinformation that clouds and confuses the issue at hand.

As it happens the OP never properly completed the KYC process. From the beginning his documents were suspect and the casino had repeatedly asked for them to be resubmitted. The OP did not fully cooperate. As I recall the casino's attempts to deposit to the OP's accounts we just another part of the verification/investigation process, not as you claim the thing that tipped them off in the first place.

And if the issue of faked documents -- notarized or otherwise -- comes as a surprise to you then you haven't been paying very close attention. Fraudsters can and will fake pretty much anything, use/borrow/steal pretty much anyone's info and lie until the cows come home in tutus. Faking and/or manipulating notary seals is old news.

 

[LaurieJim]

As previously pointed out your endless assumptions and speculations are not fact. The accounts screening process is largely a matter of hands-on expertise -- Bryan's -- and is not automated to any significant degree.



And you know this how? You are privy to the casino's internal processes perhaps? Or is it that you have some personal access to the PAB files? No? None of the above? Just making shit up again are we?

As has been asked of you before, please limit your statements to what you actually know or have good information on. Pulling stuff out of your arse and presenting it as fact helps no one and is nothing more than disinformation that clouds and confuses the issue at hand.

As it happens the OP never properly completed the KYC process. Documents were suspect and the casino asked for them to be resubmitted. The OP did not fully cooperate. Eventually he posted here trying to pressure the casino to proceed anyway, and finally the issue ended up in a PAB.

And if the issue of faked documents -- notarized or otherwise -- comes as a surprise to you then you haven't been paying very close attention. Fraudsters can and will fake pretty much anything, use/borrow/steal pretty much anyone's info and lie until the cows come home in tutus. Faking and/or manipulating notary seals is old news.

This is what I do not understand , yes these frauds can be done and if a casino needs a form done and notarized why doesn't the casinos come up with a better approach?

It is killing me as I want to say how this can be done safely and would save players time and money everywhere from having to send or scan Docs to the respected casinos and would weed out any fraud abusers.

It can easily be set up by any casino , really it could !

Laurie

 

[maxd]

Why keep it a secret? If it's a great solution then I should think sharing it would be a swell idea.

As to the casino asking for notarization (a) they have their reasons and (b) it's part of the information gathering process, not to mention that they sometimes need to have such things on file. Casinos (generally) aren't run by stupid people and they seldom do things for no good reason.

 

[LaurieJim]

Why keep it a secret? If it's a great solution then I should think sharing it would be a swell idea.

As to the casino asking for notarization (a) they have their reasons and (b) it's part of the information gathering process, not to mention that they sometimes need to have such things on file. Casinos (generally) aren't run by stupid people and they seldom do things for no good reason.

Sent you a pm explaining

Laurie

 

[Przecinek]

IDK ...on another forum you can find pretty strong evidence that OP was actually innocent in this case. There are links to a notary that certified the documents etc.
OP suggests that his old (multiple) account was actually long time ages ago, not now. Can this be confirmed?

 

[vinylweatherman]

As previously pointed out your endless assumptions and speculations are not fact. The accounts screening process is largely a matter of hands-on expertise -- Bryan's -- and is not automated to any significant degree.



And you know this how? You are privy to the casino's internal processes perhaps? Or is it that you have some personal access to the PAB files? No? None of the above? So you don't really know anything more than has been posted here do you? And you're willing to take the OP's statements at face value? How responsible is that, particularly coming from a seasoned and experienced forum member like yourself, not to mention using it as source material for your guesstimations and suppositions?

As has been asked of you before, please limit your statements to what you actually know or have reliable information on. Wild speculations -- essentially pulling stuff out of your arse and presenting it as fact -- helps no one and is nothing more than disinformation that clouds and confuses the issue at hand.

As it happens the OP never properly completed the KYC process. From the beginning his documents were suspect and the casino had repeatedly asked for them to be resubmitted. The OP did not fully cooperate. As I recall the casino's attempts to deposit to the OP's accounts we just another part of the verification/investigation process, not as you claim the thing that tipped them off in the first place.

And if the issue of faked documents -- notarized or otherwise -- comes as a surprise to you then you haven't been paying very close attention. Fraudsters can and will fake pretty much anything, use/borrow/steal pretty much anyone's info and lie until the cows come home in tutus. Faking and/or manipulating notary seals is old news.

I bank with First Direct, and if they used the banking details on the statement, the deposit would have gone through. Banks don't verify the name on an account when accepting inbound credits, they just read the account number and the sort code, and credit the deposit. If the OP used someone else's bank details, the deposit would still have gone through. It would only fail if details were for an account that does not exist, and this would be pretty stupid as at this stage, the OP would have been expecting the rest of the money.

If even a notary isn't good enough, then innocent players who are wrongly suspected are also at risk, not just the fraudsters. Innocent players can no longer rely on the premise that getting their documents properly notarised will be accepted by the casino.

The OP is actually making a fair bit of noise about this issue, and is determined to prove they are innocent. The OP is claiming that the multiple forum account issue is nothing more than some old account that was created and hardly ever used, and is being unfairly used as a means to brand them a fraud.

The OP has also named the notary they used, and invited others to check their legitimacy. The one thing the OP has NOT done is publish the documents that have been branded as fakes. This is either because they don't want to reveal personal info, or it will be much more obvious to others that they were fake to start with.

 

[Jufo]

It does look to me that the OP was never given a proper chance to defend himself and prove that the notarized documents and his identity were genuine. He may be an advantage player but it doesn't mean that he is a fraudster. Therefore I feel like the case should be re-opened and the OP should be given a proper chance to prove that the documents were legit.

 

[mimi26]

It does look to me that the OP was never given a proper chance to defend himself and prove that the notarized documents and his identity were genuine. He may be an advantage player but it doesn't mean that he is a fraudster. Therefore I feel like the case should be re-opened and the OP should be given a proper chance to prove that the documents were legit.

I agree he/she should be given a chance to defend but then again I suppose if something fraudulent has happened in the past well its sort of like the boy who cried wolf.

 

[rpalmer83]

From skim reading the thread it's quite clear the casino lied to the player in the first instance by saying they had attempted to make credits to his bank account on more than one occasion and they were rejected by his bank. They were evidently able to take deposits so logic would denote it should have been simple to return winnings to the same account he deposited with. Sounds like a stalling tactic and dishonest practice on the casino's side.

If the player can prove his identity then he should quite simply be paid. We are not talking millions here, it seems an awful lot of trouble to go to having fake documents made up and be posting in here for the sake of a few thousand £/$/€. If he has supplied a photocard driving licence/passport & bank statement with co-responding residential address and these also co-respond with the casino account then that should be more than ample proof the player is who he says he is.

The player appears to have also had documents notarised by a solicitor. Were any steps taken to contact the Solicitor to verify authenticity? surely someone in legal standing would be able to confirm outright whether the OP is genuine having physically signed documents off confirming this fact?.

Opening multiple message board accounts might be a breach of casinomeister rules & website staff are right to take the actions it sees fit but it is in no way a reflection that someone is a 'fraudster' unless these linked accounts have a history of doing the same type of thing, it's wrong to make such allegations and could even be seen as legally defamatory if the OP is indeed innocent.

It's not really right how some casinos will happily take your deposits without proof of identity but when it comes to paying out hoops have to be jumped through. As this post is in the 'non-bonus' issues section I presume a bonus wasn't involved so I really don't understand what a 'fraudster' would have to gain from depositing, wagering, winning and withdrawing to the same method of payment?. If it was anything sinister then surely the bank it's come out of & gone into would be in a far better position to detect dodgy behaviour?.

 

[maxd]

There seems to be a lot of confusion and unfamiliarity with the facts regarding this case. I'd like to clear up a few things:

...on another forum you can find pretty strong evidence that OP was actually innocent in this case.

As far as we are concerned his guilt or innocence ceased to be of interest when Bryan discoved that the guy had previously been banned from Casinomeister for multi-account fraud. The bottom line is that that guy has history here and as such we're not interested in dealing with him any further. Full stop insofar as his PAB goes.

It does look to me that the OP was never given a proper chance to defend himself ....

Not true. He filed a PAB, we worked on it for almost two weeks, the OP STILL failed to produce acceptable documents and I was ready to decide in favour of the casino and shut the PAB down. At that point his previous ban here at Casinomeister came to light and that was the end of that.

... it's quite clear the casino lied to the player in the first instance by saying they had attempted to make credits to his bank account on more than one occasion and they were rejected by his bank.

It is unwise for those who know little or nothing about a case to assume they somehow "know things". It is even less wise to make statements like the above simply because you're on the player's side. What you've said here is 100% untrue. The casino was given bogus banking info by the player and because of that there were (obviously) serious problems trying to deposit. As I recall the bank went back to the player at least once, maybe twice, for further banking info and the player still gave them screwed up info. This will set of MAJOR alarm bells at any casino, and so it should.

In any case the OP burned his chances with us because of his repeated Forum Rules violations regarding multiple accounts AND because he was previously found to be a fraudster. If you want to champion this guy's case please do it elsewhere.

Later: I for one am highly sceptical of someone who was nailed for fraud in the past, has a case now that smells suspiciously of more fraud, created a new forum account under false pretenses to press his agenda, and is busy proclaiming his innocence. I think it far more likely that said person has improved their game and is enjoying a good run at pulling a fast one.

 

[topoor]

Something doesn't seem right here. Why would a fraudster give incorrect banking details twice?

Also what did the notary who certified the documents say when they were contacted about the fraudulent use of their seals or are you saying the notary is corrupt as well?

Did this players first forum account get shut down because they committed fraud? Sorry if I've got that wrong but I think that's what you're saying.

 

[rpalmer83]

It is unwise for those who know little or nothing about a case to assume they somehow "know things". It is even less wise to make statements like the above simply because you're on the player's side. What you've said here is 100% untrue. The casino was given bogus banking info by the player and because of that there were (obviously) serious problems trying to deposit. As I recall the bank went back to the player at least once, maybe twice, for further banking info and the player still gave them screwed up info. This will set of MAJOR alarm bells at any casino, and so it should.

I am not assuming anything, I have based what I have said here on the OP's original first post. He said he had been paid his deposits back via Moneybookers. So it would seem his original deposits came from Moneybookers. They took the deposits and the wagers without issues so Why were the winnings also not returned to Moneybookers?, if they paid the deposits back I see no reason why they couldn't also pay the remaining winnings back via this method rather than wanting to pay it into a bank account?. If the OP asked for them to be paid via a bank account, the logical thing for the casino to do would be to just say No they need to back to the original payment method. The OP also posted a response from First Direct (Bank) stating that no deposit attempts had been made to the account. Regardless of the PAB, The OP also said he'd been waiting 9 weeks and they dragged their feet. If the Casino had grounds to suspect fraud why not tell him there and then 'you aren't getting paid, your a fraud' and pass the matter to the relevant authorities?. It just does not stack up.

any case the OP burned his chances with us because of his repeated Forum Rules violations regarding multiple accounts AND because he was previously found to be a fraudster. If you want to champion this guy's case please do it elsewhere. Later: I for one am highly sceptical of someone who was nailed for fraud in the past, has a case now that smells suspiciously of more fraud, created a new forum account under false pretenses to press his agenda, and is busy proclaiming his innocence. I think it far more likely that said person has improved their game and is enjoying a good run at pulling a fast one.

If the OP has submitted false identity documents, bogus bank details & tried to use casinomeister in order to get a payout previously through such practice & this was a clear repeated attempt then it is quite damning but if he is now posting on other forums and pushing to get people to listen I would wager that he is innocent rather than a massive fraudster as it wouldn't make sense to keep drawing attention to yourself if you engage in illegal activities surely?.